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On Call and Underpaid in IT/IS?
Posted by
Cliff
on Mon Apr 30, 2001 11:37 AM
from the fair-recompensation dept.
from the fair-recompensation dept.
An Anonymous Coward asks: "I work for a Fortune 100 company, that I wish to remain anonymous. But recently an issue has come up dealing with on call pay; we are responsible for monitoring systems outside of normal business hours, but are hourly employees. It has been brought up to management if only being paid when an issue occurs is legal, since we must be ready at any moment to respond to system troubles/pages outside of the normal business hours we are paid for, which includes not being able to go out of town, etc. I've asked around, but with little success, being that a large portion of Slashdot readers are in the IT/IS field I would think that someone has dealt with simular issues and would be able to offer suggestions or outline their on call pay structure so that so that I can approach management/HR. Any examples of past experiences or how you dealt with such issues would be helpful, management is more than willing to work with us."
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Re:Employers have been doing this for years... (Score:5)
Two tiers: On-Call, and Incident resolution
On-Call
Techs get paid $45/day regular-workweek, $60/day weekend ($90/holiday), for each 24-hour period on-call. Duties include:
* Respond to page within 30 minutes
* Able to be on-site within 60 minutes of response to page
Incident response:
2-Hours OT-pay (or hours-worked, which ever is larger) for over-phone or remote-login resolution
4-Hours OT-pay (or hours-worked, which ever is larger) for on-site fix.
Management rejected the on-call provision on the contract. So now, thanks to the Union, those employees formerly "on-call" have taken to leaving their pagers at work. And if their managers raise havock about that, the employees can point to the contract and say, "You can't force me to take this home with me," and be right.
Sometimes, Unions are nice things.
Re:What I've seen. (Score:5)
There are 168 hours in the week, we work in the office for 40 hours of the week ( thats covered by our regular salary ). For the other 128 hours of the week we get paid an hourly wage of 7.00 an hour, not bad for a week oncall ( and this is on top of our regular salary, but not exempt from the tax man ).
Do it the military way (Score:5)
For example, you would report to work at the normal time, say 8:00. But then at quitting time, take an hour dinner break, and then come back, and then camp out in the employee lounge or something, watch TV, surf the net, play games, raid the boss's office, etc., then sleep on the couch. If the trouble call comes at midnight, you're already there, so mash the reset button then go back to sleep. The next day, wake up, leave when the next shift comes on, go home and have a day off.
This is the way it has always been done in the military, one person camps out in the headquarters building after business hours to answer phones, keep the computers up, prevent the male soldiers from raiding the female soldiers' barracks, etc., then get the next day off to do whatever; this is what's known as staff duty, or charge of quarters.
You forgot something... (Score:5)
all you do when you pass regulations and whine to the government about your labor relations is make businesses more expensive to run, ergo less money to attract more employees, ergo fewer people paid less.
Actually, you also make it illegal for companies to have people working in areas that are hazardous, often needlessly hazardous, especially without fully informing them of the hazards. This prevents corporations from doing the kinds of things that many of them do (or did) all the time. Namely lying to the employees about the nature of the substances they are working with or around, or skimping on safety equipment and training for employees. Sure, sometimes this can cause problems for the corp, but it has happened many times, so liability was obviously not a bigger consideration than the cost savings of not using proper equipment and procedures, etc.
Re:On-call equals working (Score:5)
Where I work, there are two of us with the same job function. Both of us are always on call with primary response alternating by week. We get paid 1 hr for every 6 on call on days that we are normally scheduled to work (Mon-Fri) and 1 every 4 hrs on days we are not scheculed to work (weekends and holidays). That's 2hrs a day weekdays and 6 hrs on weekends. If you get called in, that's 4 hrs regular pay plus time worked in OT.
Now, this is just how we have it set up. IANAL, but I have always known my rights in California. The IWC requires employers to post the IWC's regulations in a place frequented by employees. Your state may by the same. Check out the info on their posted notices. In California, I don't believe the IWC has any regulations for on-call. I could be wrong though. The poster above had it right; contact a contract lawyer or get a paralegal to investigate whether there is any laws in your state. If there isn't and your employer really is amenable, contact other employees of similar companies and see what their compensation is. That is something HR should have been doing already.
Best of Luck
_damnit_
Lawyer: close, but not quite (Score:5)
you need legal advice, contact an attorney
licensed in your own jurisdiction. (and for
heavens sake, drop any notions about the law you
picked up on slashdot on the way in!)
He should definitely contact a lawyer, but what
he needs is a labor lawyer, not a contract
lawyer. I'm very well qualified as a contract
lawyer, but, unless there was a prior
relationship with the client (or unless I
expected to see enough of these coming up to make
it worth boning up on that area of the law far
more than would be justified by the fee on a
single consultation), I'd probably punt this to a
labor lawyer. If there was a prior relationship,
I'd probably hire or associate a labor lawyer.
hawk, esq.
Re:Employers have been doing this for years... (Score:5)
and employees always want to take advantage of their employer. The combination works quite well together
While unions might be the answer, the fact that the workers *could* unionize is a stick on the workers side; some companies realize that they can keep a union out by treating the employees better than they could get with a union.
Unions are a huge transaction cost. There's a whole lot of room for both sides to be happy if you divvy up the costs of running the union between lower costs for management and higher wages/perks/whaterver for labor . . .
hawk, speaking as an economist this time
Planning & Job Descriptions (Score:5)
I'm also a bit biased as I'm a former tech now on the management side of things so adjust your perspective-compensators appropriately.
There are two fundamental issues here: Planning & Job Descriptions.
Without the planning in place there's no clear procedure to follow, no resources to assure are available, no guidelines on who is to be called and under what circumstances.
Without the job descriptions done properly the Employees & the Employer are left without clarity on responsibility.
All organizations should have clear guidelines for what systems are critical and which ones are merely important. All of these systems need to have plans detailing how they are to be handled in case of failure, what resources are required (people being the pertinent resources in this case) and how they are to be called upon.
"Critical" systems need to have folks available to repair them - these folks are either required to be on site (either as part of a shift cycle, as simply their regular hours of work or "On Call") and generally involves some form of remuneration or explicit understanding with the folks keeping themselves available. This requirement must be written into a person's job description and be mutually agreed to. Simply expecting folks to make themselves available, not leave the area, etc. is unreasonable.
Yes one may be "responsible" for the regular running of a system but off-hours, weekends & vacations are just that. Without that explicit understanding (and accompanying remuneration) one is free to lead one's life regularly during off-hours.
That said there are various classes of reasons that might lead to an IS/IT employee being called in.
"Emergencies" are just that - unanticipated events with significant immediate consequences. They are not part of normal operations; if they were they'd just be "Events". These happen very rarely in IS/IT and are only really legitimate in cases like consequences from a natural disaster, serious security breaches, systems failing that are not only mission-critical but are immediately mission-critical.
Emergencies are cause for calling folks at home, expecting them to change their plans, come in & save the place. Management, both senior & middle are expected to come in and stay for the duration handling the emergency, its consequences, etc. You should expect to see at most one of these a year even if you're the sort of person who's going to get called in first if there's an emergency.
If these happen more then once a year there's a problem with your operations. Either contingency planning is lax or your folks are cutting things too close to the edge. Whatever the case there's a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed at the very top levels.
"Events" are when something happens that is unanticipated and will have serious consequences. If you've got five servers one going down is an event. If you've got 500 it's not, it's just another log-entry and following the procedure.
Events are cause for calling the folks responsible for the affected systems and inviting them in. However as there should always be a contingency plan in place for these sorts of systems and On-Call folks qualified to handle the situation, at least in the immediate term.
If one is not able to come in (and professionally one should if possible unless one is attending a funeral, caring for an ill child or some other pressing reason) then one is blameless but it would be nice to help out. By the way, an employee refusing to come in is not required to justify themselves unless there is, again, an explicit understanding regarding this sort of situation. "I am/was busy" is good & sufficient reason for an average employee to decline coming in.
Finally there simply good ole Things-That-Happen. The same as during normal operation systems fail, wires get cut, folks working off-hours have problems. Every organization generally has times of full-service and times with decreased service-levels.
It's up to Management to decide what levels of service are appropriate to what times and to assure that adequate resources are made available. This may involve folks on-site, folks on-call, or simply not offering a response 'till a later time.
There are cases, generally in poorly run places where unscrupulous management will attempt to define all issues as emergencies and expect all staff to act as on-call staff. This is of course ridiculous.
I once had a former employee told by his new employer "Emergencies happen - it's part of the job" after being called in 3-4 nights a week and at least once every weekend for several months.
These aren't "Emergencies" - they're clearly part of normal operations for the place and should be considered as such (and the management that allows such a poor state of affairs to happen should be replaced.)
What can an employee do? Insist that there be guidelines implemented. Insist that their job description be clarified. This holds true for all classes of persons: Saleried, hourly, and contracted. If one is directly contracted then make sure this is addressed in your contract. If one is sub-contracted (agency staff, whatever) then speak to the folks who issue your paycheck, get this clarified and that you're ok with it.
Frankly as I told my abused former-staffer (who was once in the middle of some long-anticipated sex when called go into work for a bogus problem, and went!) just reply that you're too drunk to come into work. That's probably not the best response but it communicates one's unavailability in spite of being reached on the phone.
Other more reasonable responses include insisting all "Emergencies" be treated as such with some sort of procedure being followed. Clearly an "Emergency" requires an follow-up investigation into it's causes, an evaluation of how the department performed, some sort of report detailing what happened & how it can be avoided / better handled in the future. This kind of investigation & documentation are anathema to a manager who's using this as an "out" & will quickly put and end to this sort of monkey business.
Another is to simply make this technique onerous on the (ir)responsible management. You get called in (in it's not legitimately part of your job, your goodwill has been exhausted) then make sure other folks suffer. Call your manager, report what you're planning to do, get permission. This is best done at 3am. Then again at 4am with a follow-up. If they're not available find something that will need authorization & follow the chain of command... Up.
Then there's simply taking the time off the next day. Called in at 2am for an hour? Come in an hour late the next day. Spent Saturday fielding phonecalls? Monday out & meetings be damned, your schedule was.
Yes this is dangerous stuff, calling the CIO at 5am is not to be done lightly. Nor is adjusting one's schedule. Indded this sort of thing can quickly lead to poor future prosdpects if not simlpe termination. However if one is well & truly being screwed it will definitely bring attention to the problem.
Frankly as a Manager I've sometimes instituted the policy that for every call-in the person's Supervisor be called also. This generally provides a great deal of incentive not to abuse folks and makes robust planning much more attractive. Other policies that work are the full-invstigation & report as noted above.
Finally, try and be flexible. Yes there are times that one will likely be called on above & beyond the usual call of duty. A good employer will respect their employees and show appreciation. Try and give the benefit of the doubt and assume that this will be the case & that some good will come of what's happening. If not, well start shopping that resume.
Your time (Score:5)
My advice can only come from my own perspective. In any job, I insist that the duties are specifically detailed and known in advance. I do not put up with open-ended assignments, or requests to work outside of normall business hours which are brought up less than two weeks in advance. After all, I notify my employer two weeks before I intend to take vacation, or resign. If your job consists of monitoring operations at certain times of the day, week, or month, I would simply require that all those hours spent monitoring operations be compensated at the hourly rate. If you have to be on-call but not actively working, bill those hours at a reduced rate, but bill them just the same.
Tech workers who put up with a lot of BS should get paid for it. Auto mechanics and welders leave their work behind at 5:00 spot on, their brains synchronized precisely to the atomic clock of the Naval Observatory. The electricians and builders who work in my building work, by my honest observation, 2 hours per day. They certainly can't be reached outside of the 9:00-15:00 time window. If your employer wants you to spend your entire life at work, you should either say no or get paid accordingly.
In healthcare..... (Score:4)
Count your blessings (Score:5)
Re:Count your blessings (Score:5)
When you're salaried, you're paid to get the job done, however long it takes. Hours don't count. And if the job includes being on call, well, them's the breaks....
Re:Count your blessings (Score:5)
First of all, IANAHRPerson, but I have discussed this with one as part of my hair-pointening promotion. This is going from memory and rather sparse notes, and may apply only to California. YMMV.
There are certain requirements for becoming an exempt employee. Advanced degrees are one way of "qualifying", but not the only one. You can be made exempt if you are in a "professional" career field, or perform functions that the company have deemed to be absolutely vital. It's been my experience that this is how most IS/IT types get made exempt (it's certainly true in my case, as I have no advanced degree, and have been an exempt employee at various companies for over 15 years).
Once you are exempt, you get paid a flat salary to perform the functions listed in your job description (including the infamous "other duties as assigned"). You are paid based on your job performance and completion of your assigned duties. Hours do not enter into the fomula at all; in fact, if they do, your exempt status comes into jeopardy.
Suppose I go home sick after working 2 hours. A hourly employee would get charged 6 hours sick time. But as an exempt employee, I should not be charged for any sick time - I worked part of that day, so I get paid for the full day. Breaking it down into "2 hours worked, 6 hours sick" shifts the pay charging from "job/task based" to "hour based". The same goes for running errands during the day, doctors appointments, and the like. If I make up the time, I jeopardize my exempt status. I get paid to get the work done, no matter how many (or few) hours it takes.
So, if you're exempt, and your boss is making you take partial sick or vacation time, s/he may be jeopardizing your exempt status. Check with your HR rep.
Now, to go with this, if my job duties require me to put in 50-60 hour weeks, come in on weekends, be on-call 24/7 (which, at times, it does), well, that's the other side of the coin. As an exempt employee, you should not get any sort of additional official compensation, either in salary or time off, for these extra hours.
Note that I said "official" - most managers (and I'm one of them) will cut their exempt employees some extra slack when they've been putting in extra hours. A lot of time, it's "work at home" time, where they're officially on the job, but unofficially at the beach. Money's harder to do - I've received extra stock options "in recognition of my efforts and value to the company", but that requires action at the Board level (at least, it does in our company). It's tough for managers to give monetary perks to their overworked exempt employees.
Anyway, that's my understanding of the difference between hourly and exempt employees.....
What I've seen. (Score:5)
The one which I though was the most fair, was a setup I had at a company a few years back.
When on-call, you'd get an hourly rate for incidents. The smallest increment was 1 hour, with a 4 hour base. In other words if it took me 30 mins to resolve a problem, I'd get to bill for 4 hours.
If it took me 4.5 hours to fix a problem, I would get to bill for 5 hours.
Additionally, you got 8 hours "for free" for carrying the phone per week. It's not really "free" as is mentioned in the article header, but it seemed enough.
On a good week, you'd get 8 hours to haul around a cellphone. On a bad week you'd easily be able to get 40+ hours of overtime while working about 8.
Seemed fair to me.
Re:Call a contract lawyer (Score:5)
In the USA, the Fair Labor Standards Act requires (1) that hourly workers be paid for hours worked and (2) that they be paid overtime for hours worked in excess of 40. The obvious question is how "on call" time fits into this system.
The Department of Labor's FLSA regulations [dol.gov], particularly this one [dol.gov], suggest that "on call" time doesn't count as work time for purposes of the FLSA. (If the employee is actually called, however, that would seem to be different -- see this regulation [dol.gov].)
This recent opinion [findlaw.com] from Wisconsin involving EMTs "on call" discusses a very close case, and is interesting.
Re:It's a philosophical question (Score:4)
Re:Call a contract lawyer (Score:5)
Re-phrasing the question may be of benefit:
What are the standards of practice for on-call duty?
Are you compensated for time on-call, or only for the time actually needed to respond to an emergency?
If you are paid for time on-call, what is the rate?
The answer from a salaried employee: comp time (Score:5)
...and the compensation? We get Friday off.
...and how was it handled? Rather than our bosses going and negotiating with HR (pointless), they handled it on their own. We stay at home, but as far as the bean counters know, we were here the full day.
Might work well for your situation, too. Depends on your management.
Re:Counterexample (Score:4)
doesn't sound too safe to me.
ej
You could check slashdot in the past (Score:4)
Helpful article on Nolo.com (Score:4)
This might help out; in most states, if there's a restriction on your movements & your behavior, you probably should be getting paid for each and every hour you're on duty.
http://www.nolo.com/encyclopedia/articles/emp/onca ll.html [nolo.com]
Unionize (Score:5)
But look at what you are doing - compare that to what a skilled worker in a factory does. It is virtually the same thing. But because one person wears jeans and a work shirt and the other wears a tie, they think they have nothing in common.
I'm serious about this. You are in the same postition as an average factory worker - where you are expected by the bosses to do things and not be compensated fairly. It's time for tech workers to get together and help each other out. It will make all of our lives better.
We don't hire people, or fire people, or make decisions on pay and raises. You're a worker, just the same as a person in a steel mill or a person making clothes. Your tools are computers instead of hammers or CAD/CAM driven lathes.
Ok, I'll get off the soap box now.
What do people think? Why no big tech union?
Re:Normally I'd agree (Score:4)
If he's looking for contract advice, I'd say "Talk to a lawyer." If he's asking for shared experience, I'd say:
"Depending on what company I was working for, the On-Call person would get a premium of between $50 and $250 a week to carry the duty pager."
That's not legal advice. That's a shared experience - what he was asking for...
Redundancy is key (Score:5)
last article (Score:4)
guaranteed availability pay (Score:5)
I though this made a lot of sense because you still got paid even if there were no problems. It really encouraged you to make the systems as reliable as possible.
Counterexample (Score:5)
I mean, what kind of place would we live in if police only got paid for the arrests they made? That's a rediculous idea.
------
That's just the way it is
Call a contract lawyer (Score:5)
On call pay (Score:4)
Re:Employers have been doing this for years... (Score:4)
Unions are even more corrupt than corporations. I will never again work for a union. They tell you what you can make, when you can do what, what you can do at work, and even how to vote. I was pressured many times by the union I was in to vote screaming liberal.
Why is this even a question? (Score:4)
If your girlfriend was shitty to you, would you ask "My girlfriend doesn't treat me the way I'd like to be treated. Do other people have girlfriends who are nice to them?" Or would you say to her "Hey, shape up or we're breaking up?"
Who cares what other people do? It's YOUR situation. Don't waste your time talking on Slashdot. Any employer who isn't going to pay you fairly sure isn't going to give Shit One about what a bunch of /.ers say about things.
I have to assume from the passive voice ("It has been brought up to management") that you, personally, have not discussed with your boss, and you're repeating what you've heard in conversations you've had with others in hushed tones, crouched behind your cubicle walls.
Talk to your boss directly and say "I count these hours as being working hours for reasons X, Y and Z, and I expect to be paid for them." If they're not amenable to that, then leave. Go to someone who does want to pay you fairly.
And to those who have posted "form a union!", I would suggest that if people like AC would stand up to the PHBs & their companies (or better yet, communicate with management before any of this comes down), we wouldn't NEED unions.
Your employer is not your parent. You are not required to work there. It's a relationship. If you're not holding up your end of the relationship, you get fired. So, too, should your company get fired if they're not holding up their end of things.
--
Re:Employers have been doing this for years... (Score:5)
Okay I don't think I'm following the logic here.
Management rejected the On-call scenario presented by the Union, therefore the Union did not get their requested options in the contract, which to me makes it sound like the Union LOST. So if the Union LOST how does it turn right back around and get it's way. How is the employee "right" by refusing to do his/her contractually obligated job?
To me this just sounds like the "bullet proof union employee" crap. Instead of Union employees showing what they are worth by doing good honest work and being an asset to the company that they work for they band together and hold the company hostage for more pay, less work, more comps. The company has very little it can do because if they refuse the contract the Union employees just slow production, walk away, or sit and because of other similar contract negotiations the company has little they can do to get workers back on the line except give in to the Union demands.
I've seen some crappy stuff done by Unions. Mostly it's mid contract renegotiations siting "safety concerns" - which typically get pressed while the extra money and comps part gets quietly stuck somewhere in the back and glossed over by the spinnners. "Oh yeah we are requesting a small monitary change, but the main issue is safety."
As you can tell my biased opinion is that Unions are just organized extortion, protection for employees but only the ones who pay. Notice some of the dot com layoffs that have happened union employees are the last to go. Not because of their intrinsic value but because of the contractual obligations set forth and the added cost laying off union employees would entail.
When you stop worrying about your job security you get lazy. I've seen Union employees come to work drunk, stoned, sleeping on the job, get hurt due to their own negligence, refuse work and yet the employer is unable to terminate because the Union won't allow it. Solidarity and all.
Back to the topic on hand: You should be able to speak with your employer and discuss your issues amicably. If you cannot do this it's probably a good sign that the employer you are with is not where you should be. There are many many companies out there that are willing to compensate their employees adequately for their time and good work. I would suggest that you approach your employer and if they are unwilling to set a monitary value to compensate you for your time they might find another mechanism for support. Collect some data to take with you such as yearly support cost from third party vendors, comparisons of other support mechansisms pros/cons, salary/hourly comparisons of other IT workers and plans. Market your skills show them that they should be paying you according to your worth to the company and the value that you bring in your service.
Personally I'm on call on a rotation basis, primary one week, secondary one week, then off one week. I'm not penalized if I don't answer a call because there is a secondary, as long as I'm not abusive about it. I can usually work out any out of town time with my coworkers to provide adequate support for the company. My compensation is my salary plus a yearly bonus equivelant to 10% (up to 20%) of my salary and a minimum of 4% (max 10%) raise per year, all based off of MY performance. This is what I negotiated with my employer for my valued services. Look at the task from a partnering point of view instead of a us/them point of view and things go amazingly well.
This happened to me! (How I made $5k+ in a day) (Score:5)
Wow, your situation is so similar to what happened to me three years ago, it's almost as if I wrote it myself. Here's the scoop on how I got my own back pay.
I used to work for a major financial institution in their IT office, and like you, I was an hourly employee forced to work after hours on-call work. ("It's part of the job," they said.) Well, I had an inkling it wasn't right, but I didn't argue. Nor did I question it, until the on-call time became oppressive. Since taking the job, we went from being a 8am-10pm shop with one location to a 24/7 shop with multiple locations nationally. It became common to recieve three or four calls during the night. The employer also changed us from hourly to salary employees to avoid paying us overtime.
Then I picked up a very good book at my local library: Every Employee's Guide to the Law [amazon.com]. I highly recommend it!
Please read the book for a better description... But to sum up, there are two kinds of employees: Hourly and Salaried. Hourly employees *must* be paid at least time-and-a-half overtime pay. Period. They can't be compensated with "comp time" or bribed with Rice Krispy Treats. No, as I understand it, the employer must pay 1.5 x Hourly Pay for every hour worked overtime during a week. That little poster in the break room just about sums it up. To compensate for less (or not at all, like some posters are infering) is illegal.
If you're on-call, you get hours for everything you do for the company, but not necessarily for waiting around for the beeper to go off. So, if during the night you get called at 1:00 a.m. and 3:00 a.m., and work a half an hour on each, you've worked 1 hour of overtime.
There are pretty strict rules for who can be an Salaried employee. Basically, someone has to have "advanced training" (ie. college degree) or else fit into certain classes of employee. (Managerial or secretarial). If you are a salaried employee, you are the whippin' boy of your employer. They can do anything... ask you to work any amount of time, and it's your job to do it with a smile. Since I did not have a computer degree, and the job was formerly an hourly position, I was made an salaried employee illegally.
I'd advise checking with the US Department of Labor closest to you. There's probably one in your state. You can have questions answered without "turning them in." You can even request a complaint form. Have it ready, in case things go awry.
In the US, we have whistleblower laws to protect people from employers who try to punish those that turn them in for wrongdoings. If the thought of losing your job concerns you, you can turn them in anonymously. You have some leverage on your side. If an employer is sued for breaking this law, they generally pay through the nose. I forget the exact figures.
However, I spoke to my employer one on one about the law, and about my findings. I went armed with information, I backed up my evidence, and my manager took the information to H.R., who talked to the corporate lawyer. Well, what-do-ya-know, I was right. We had our back pay "expidited". I had it within a month.
Little will strike fear into your company more than the dreaded "Department of Labor Audit". (Well, maybe a "software audit"...) If the government has reasonable cause, they'll send a bunch of flunkies over and go through your local HR office with a fine-tooth comb. They'll check every employee over, interview disgruntled employees, and tie up the whole office in a paperwork quagmire. 'T ain't pretty, I bet.
Information is your friend. Fortunately, I had documented almost all of the time I had been on-call. You need documentation to be able to prove your case.
So, I wish you the very best of luck. Read the book, get yourself a lawyer, talk to the Department of Labor.
--HTH, Yekrats
I quit over this (Score:5)
I had a job with Philips/Magnavox (a small branch operation, mind you, but part of the system). Because we had marketers in every part of the world, it was decided that their machines always had to be running, therefore, the IT Dept always had to be working.
I wasn't opposed to the basic idea of this - except that they didn't want to hire more people to cover the time. So 2 people who usually covered an 8 hour shift were suppose to trade off a cell phone between the two of us, and always be available during that time. If one of us took a vacation, tough - the other guy was then on for a 24 hour shift. But since we were salary, we didn't get 24 hour pay. If you were having sex with your wife and that damned phone rang, you had to answer it.
I left. If a company wants to provide a warm body for support, then make them pay for it. There's no excuse for "well, we need this so you do it so you get to work it". Its better for the users to have someone in the building when they call, then somebody sitting in a theater who has to run out to the hallway and figure out why somebody can't get to their email through the phone connection.
Of course, I could be wrong.
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel
On-call equals working (Score:4)
on call requirements (Score:5)
It depends on the state you live in. In ohio they basically said that if you do not like the company and its conditions, quit. That was the only way to get out of having to do what they asked as a condition of employment.
Other states probably have different attitudes. The place where I checked was the wage and hour division of the state government.
Good Luck,
dzimmerm
It's a philosophical question (Score:4)
The answer of course, is "no".
Here is one compensation plan: (Score:5)
Article XIV: On-Call Pay [umich.edu]
Quoting:
Each employee specifically designated as in an "on-call" status shall be paid twenty percent (20%) of the job rate for his/her classification for hours spent in that status. Employees, when designated for on-call status, are required to restrict their whereabouts to the extent that they are required to leave word at their home or with their supervisor where they can be reached and be in a position to return to work immediately when called. Upon return to work, such employees are not eligible for call back or reporting pay, as provided in Articles XII and XIII, nor for on-call pay while at work, but shall be paid their regular hourly rate, plus shift premium or special schedule premium, if applicable, or the overtime premium as set forth in Section A. of Article X, if applicable, for actual work performed. Time spent in an on-call status shall not be counted in calculating time worked for deter-mining when an overtime premium shall be paid.
Could make them exempt salaried employees ... (Score:4)
Title 29, Section 785 of the US Code (Score:5)
"Whether waiting time is time worked under the Act depends upon particular circumstances. The determination involves ``scrutiny and construction of the agreements between particular parties, appraisal of their practical construction of the working agreement by conduct, consideration of the nature of the service, and its relation to the waiting time, and all of the circumstances."
Periods during which an employee is completely relieved from duty and which are long enough to enable him to use the time effectively for his own purposes are not hours worked. He is not completely relieved from duty and cannot use the time effectively for his own purposes unless he is definitely told in advance that he may leave the job and that he will not have to commence work until a definitely specified hour has arrived. Whether the time is long enough to enable him to use the time effectively for his own purposes depends upon all of the facts and circumstances of the case.
The general rule seems to be whether or not the employee is free to do as he pleases, or is restricted - tied to a phone, for instance - while waiting for the call.
There's an overview at http://www.mrsc.org/legal/flsa/nutsbolt.htm#E9E2 [mrsc.org]
Re:Employers have been doing this for years... (Score:5)
I took this philsophy with me when I was doing independant SA work some years ago. Simply told the customer that pager duty would translate into 25% normal pay, and it never cost me a deal. Usually, they would dump the pager on some poor salaried sod.
Forget the lawyer anyway! (Score:5)
Sure, you could talk to a labor lawyer, find out how your state's laws apply to your situation, then go back to the company and say "this is what my lawyer told me, and here's what you should do to avoid legal problems"...
You could do that, but then you would be giving them free legal advice! Finding out if they are exposing themselves to legal hassles is their problem. Let them find out that kind of crap on their own time and with their own money
If you are unhappy being on-call and not being paid for it (and you should be), then here is what you should do: Utter not a single word of complaint, and start interviewing with other companies for your next job.
During your "exit interview", they will surely want to know why you quit. You might be tempted to use this opportunity to vent about all they have done wrong and why they are so unfair... Don't. If they want your advise about what they should change, they should pay you for it. Just smile and say you like your new opportunities at your new position better, shake hands, and walk away. Otherwise, you are breaking the One Rule for dealing with bad companies: Never consult for free!
For Us, it works like this: (Score:5)
Friday to Saturday: 2hrs/day for pager duty.
Holidays: 4hr/day for pager duty.
What if you get called in? Well, then you get 4 hours pay MINIMUM for the call. If you can fix the prob in 2 hours, hit the beer store, if not, well too bad suckah!
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In CA... (Score:5)
First of all, ditto all comments on talking to a lawyer & not giving anything said here credence. That noted...
I recall a similar question recently being written in & answered in the LA Times's "Workplace" questions section. The employment professional who answered it said that the situation varies by state, but this is the legal situation in CA:
You are considered to be "working" and therefore must be paid if your movement or behavior is constrained in any meaningful way. That is, if your employer forces you to be at home to answer a call, he must pay you to stay at home because he's constraining your movement. Likewise, if you're on your lunch break yet not allowed to leave the property you must be paid for your lunch break. An example of behavior constraint is being allowed to do whatever you want but having to wear a shirt that advertises the company. You must be paid for being constrained. Thus, it comes down to individual cases for the court to decide if you are indeed meaningfully constrained.
Now, the courts have said that being forced to carry a beeper or cell is not a meaningful restraint on behavior, nor are reasonable localization constraints, where for example a person is told to be within an hour from work at all times should they get beeped. The intent as interpreted from the courts is that no constraint should make it difficult for you to live a normal daily life. The employer does NOT have to pay you for the time you're on-call, as long at they're not making you stay in a certain place or places to be on-call.
However when called in, even if it's just to answer a 5-minute question, they must pay you for the mandated minimum of 2 hours (this counteracts employers over-scheduling people on purpose then sending them off if it's not busy today without compensation). If they call you in they may also be liable to pay you from the moment they NOTIFY you to come in to the time you leave, as opposed to just the time you're there working on the problem.
Lastly, in CA no company can legally mandate overtime for hourly employees nor fire or punish you for not working overtime, though this law is largely flouted. It is always (legally at least) your choice to come in on short notice or not. If you do come in in addition to the standard 40-hr workweek, the requisite time and 1/2 must be paid.
You ARE a machine. (Score:5)
That's right, friends, what's more important to your boss is the machine. Not you.
This is quite evident to most people who work on production lines doing highly technical work. The reason technically skilled people are so unique is that they can fit themselves into the little box of functionality determined by the technology's requirements. To the bosses, this isn't like the requirements of an artist, which include freedom of some sort.
The economy is crashing and many people find that they can locate more replaceable machine-servants than they could in the upswing.
So, in accordance to your lesser value, IT on call staff, your flexibility is gone, and your job perks are gone, and you see your job as the stark situation that it is-- slavery to the machine.
This is the kind of work that would benefit from independent collectives of people each knowing the same group of machines and being interchangably knowledgable about them. But companies like as few people as possible to have access to their system.
Re:On-call equals working (Score:5)
As for this guy, well basically it depends on wether he thinks his compensation is adiquate. More or less if you feel that your compensation is NOT adiquate in a given job your only options are to either try to negoate somethng else with management or to leave and find a new job. Wether it is bad enough to actually quit is up to you. For example, if I worked a job where I made like $12/hr, had to work really hard during the day, and then was expected to be on call at night with no additonal pay, I'd probably be pissed, and try to renegoatie and leave if I didn't get my way. However if I worked a job where I made $40/hr and had a fairly easy work day, it wouldn't at all bother me to be on call in the off hours.
Really the only time there is any sort of legal solution is: if ( (cash.youGet / hours.youWork) 5.15 || cash.youGet cash.promisedInContract). so unless your pay works out to be less than minimum wage on an hourly basis or you pay is not consistent with what's in your contract (ie they promised you on call pay but you don't get it), there really is no legal recourse. That being the case you should frist talk to your boss and see if they'll up your compensation and if they won't, consider wether the compensation is adiquate enough to keep the job or if you should look elsewhere.
Reward uptime, not downtime. (Score:5)
For one of our customers, we had to be tested by an independent company to match to an SLA in terms of dial-up performance, speed of access, etc. so the scheme worked like this:
A pot of cash was put up - say $6,000/month. If we did far better than the SLA stated, the whole lot was up for grabs. If we got just inside, $4,000 was up for grabs. If we missed the SLA, no money was available.
What would then happen is that for every day a person did remote call-out they got a point. If they drove into work to fix something, they got an extra point. If they did a whole day at the weekend, they got an extra 2 points, etc.
At the end of the month, all the points were added up, and the amount available from the performance we had acheived was divided by this number of points, giving money per point. This was then awarded accordingly. I left after making about $10,000 on this scheme over 6 months, but I know one guy who still works there doubled his salary on this.
What's more, the network is in better shape too, as it has to meet high standards for the money to be paid out. Quite effective really.
Back to the days of hourly - Please. (Score:5)
I remember my first Job in IT/IS/MIS/(whatever else they call the work of a martyr); it was great. I was getting benefits and travel compensation, as well as $28.00/hour. This may not sound like a lot (For New York/San Francisco); after 40 hours this started to rack up dough pretty quickly.
Then came the day I was offered the coveted Salary. Oh, paid vacation! Oh, getting paid when I'm not around. Oh, getting ripped off and having to work un-compensated overtime and having various people call you at all hours. What happened to the days of the Hawaiian shirt, waking up at 9:30, and just knowing it all (compared to lusers where the PEBKAC - I would not presume to know it all) and working late when the servers crashed or messed up.
The suit and tie replaced khakis and polo (I didn't mind dressing up, its like a uniform - and always looks kind of nice). The boss and every co-worker felt like weekends and sick days and vacation days were open season because I was the one who implemented most of the 30 servers in the main location. Never mind the fact the servers has good uptime and were well documented, these people didn't know how to USE the software they were 'professionals' in. When I went away to Mexico one year, I left my cell phone home, and the stupid pager. When I got back there were 40+ messages which were dent to null immediately.
People and Employers don't get it. I use to work late without overtime almost every day in NYC, it's part of the work culture there. People used to get very upset with this guy, Vlad, who basically worked nine to five. I used to say "Lets unite! If we all work nine to five, we will send a message to the management that we need more personnel". This advice fell on deaf ears - the toiling continued.
I am by no means complaining outright, I feel that I am lucky and am well compensated. Work does encroach on my life from time to time, and I resent it. I think its ridiculous and unfair. I work at a Si Valley startup now, so I am less resentful. Everyone works overtime, and the risk and added work is supposed to be rewarded by shares.
It is painful for me to be the pivotal person here, the bridge between the engineers and the marketing whores and others. I have to explain the subterfuge and lameness of the lusers to the engineers, and have to hold the hands of the lusers and explain that people on *nix platforms like PDFs, not work documents, and that HTML mail doesn't play nice. Or how to make a VPN connection. Or how to dial up and ISP. Or how to get a DSL "router" NAT box or wireless network for the home. Or do something else that is overtly simple. The list goes on forever.
I think the service groups in various companies should start valuing their employees, most of the time the only way to send a message is to walk. I've walked with great success, always getting more money each time I hop. It's not about the money for me, it's about being worn to the bone. It about being expected to be superman always by lusers. You should have seen the face on this person whose hard disk failed. "I can replace the hard drive, sure, no problem." "Will I get all my data back?" "No, You never backed it up. You were told many times how to back it up and failed to do so." "I thought it was automatic."
Christ, if you were to tell a professor in University that your floppy died and you lost your project, you would at best get a ~day~, maybe less to produce it. Most of the time you would just fail. These people have graduated from the world of school to the world of being a fetus with a big body in the workplace.
I think IT/MIS/IS/blah should be seen as valued. Companies should train their employees, and increase support. Think of it, when you call {Insert publicly traded technology company here, e.g., HP, Dell} you hate waiting for service, and you hate how stupid the tech support is most of the time. I think of myself as someone who is a pleasure to deal with, I'm polite, like to crack a few jokes, and always try my hardest to get the job done well and in a timely fashion. No, instead, these companies have to bleat to the shareholder, not pay/eliminate good people and as consumers get the shaft.
In a company, the people you support are the consumers, the customers. And people are getting crappier and crappier service because decent people like myself are getting disgruntled and pissed. So they fleet of DeVRY graduates takes my place, from flipping burgers to re-ghosting machines every time they see an application error they don't understand.
Companies and managers - keep the good ones around, pay them more and try not to tell them how to do their jobs. Fire people who don't tow the line, and give the good ones gophers and underlings. You will be rewarded. Start paying out overtime instead of "comp. days," which are a total crock since you page them anyway!
I honestly wish I was still on hourly.
Best of luck to all my fellow MIS/IT/IS/blah support people - may the force of fairness be with us!
Re:on call pay (Score:5)
I'm confused.
Shouldn't you be happy you have a job in the first place? Corporations aren't hiring you just for fun, you know. They expect you to work for your pay! You should be posting anonymous. I would never hire someone like you to my company.
Let me clear things up for you. Yes Corporation who hire you have the right to expect thier employees to work, however in this case, his employer is not paying him for the the service he provides, ie being on call. He has the right to recieve a fair days pay for a fair days work and if he is not, then he has two options, quit and find another job or try to change his current employers policy. I personally feel it is better to try the latter and only the former if the employer is unreasonable and refuses to negotiate a fair settlement, such as half pay while on call, or being allowed to take the time worked off at another time and still get paid.
I know I will get flamed for this, because it sounds too much like a labor union, but remember there is strength in numbers. If you go it alone, you will probably be ignored, but if you can get a few or better yet all of your co-workers who are in the same situation to confront your employer at the same time, you are more likely to get results, after all 1 person is easy to replace, 10 are not.
Re:Unionize (Score:5)
1) Why pay a tax to an organization that I may have strong disagreements to goals and approach?
2) You've probably never seen the Telecommunications union at work. One tiny example: picture not being able to get training for some new technology (DSL) because "the union" says mgmt can only give it to the most senior guy (who may end up retiring in 6 months).
On the other hand, I think it would be extremely in our interest to form a Trade Association, that could do things like lobby on issues of importance to us. The difference being instead of dues being ripped out of our paychecks and being forced to bargain collectively, the organization would collect voluntary membership dues, put out a trade publication (perhaps setup professional accredation standards), and lobby Congress on things like H1B visas, labor laws (such as compulsory unpaid overtime) or intellectual property. The model I'm thinking here is the American Medical Association.
(The problem is that doctors are bright enough to pony up the money for such an organization, but I'm not so sure about ego-centric programmers, admins & web jocks. Too bad the ACM couldn't take up role.)