Landing a "Regular Job"? 157
sfe_software asks: "I'm an out-of-work programmer and systems administrator. I've reached a point where I have to find a job - any job - and I am finding this quite difficult. I'm apparently 'over-qualified' for everything from flipping burgers to fixing PCs at the local CompUSA. Noone wants to hire you at $6-$12/hour when you were making $45-$75/hour on previous jobs, yet, I'm not finding the high-paying work any more and need *something*. As a contractor, I've always kept a savings, but at this point that river is quickly running dry. What are other out-of-work techies doing? How do you convince a hiring manager that you aren't simply using them as a temporary stepping stone (even if this is true)?"
Lie (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of over-stating your resume, understate it. Problem solved.
Re:Lie (Score:1)
lying to get hired is fraud, and you can go to jail for that, as well as having to pay back any wages plus damages, even if they seem earned to you. lying for money is a very bad plan.
Re:Lie (Score:2)
lying to get hired is fraud
Unless you're a politician, in which case it's necessary.
Re:Lie (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Lie (Score:1)
Re:Lie (Score:2)
Re:they don't need a reason or cause (Score:2)
of course its really tough to unionize in those states which - BTW
HEY IT SHLUBS - UNIONIZE THIS TIME.
Re:they don't need a reason or cause (Score:1)
This time? I musta missed the last call to unionize.
Re:they don't need a reason or cause (Score:2)
for non-management type grunt positions like IT and DB Programming, a Union is the only way to make sure that you dont get fscked.
So instead of getting screwed by the company, you get screwed by your union? No thanks, at least I can negotiate with a company. Inside a union I'd only be able to make what my union says I can make. I'd only be able to get promoted based on my seniority which really doesn't necessessarily say shit about my technical level or useful experience. And on top of that, My voice would be overruled by the lazy and stupid.
Unions? No thank you.
Re:they don't need a reason or cause (Score:2)
why is it that americans fail to see the value of standing together?
Well I'm Canadian to start but I suspect it's a North American thing. I see unions screw companies every day. I see unions screw government (which means they're screwing us, including themselves) every day. I'm sick to the teeth of the whole notion of huge industry unions. They are a constant source of whining and agony, and they are corrupt beyond all measure.
The idea of small unions (let's say under 1000 members) does have some appeal but unions like the teacher's union, CAW/UAW, OPSEU and the like are absolutely useless to anyone who wants to make a run and stand on their own merit. Like I said, within a union you don't get promoted by merit or by usefulness, but by seniority. While that's fine for someone who's 40 and has been in a union since they got out of high school, it is absolutely useless for the young people or those who end up getting dragged down to the average. Believe me, nothing kills your spirit like not having any control over your future.
Anywhere there is a large mass of skill there will be a bell curve of "goodness" -- those to the right will be anti-union because they know it'll only drag them down, while those to the left will push for unionization because it will raise their quality-of-employment. The large bump in the middle represents those who really don't care one way or the other or who can't make up their minds. This is an oversimplification, yes, but I would definately call this the first approximation of a unionphobic/unionphilic metric.
For someone like myself -- someone who is further ahead at 26 than most union lifers because of the chances I've taken, dumb luck I've fallen into and experience I've gained from not towing the line, paying my dues and waiting for my promotion -- unions offer absolutely nothing to me.
Yes, I'm young. However I'm also damned well skilled and if I can play my cards right, I will have no need for unions even at 40 or 50 or 60. You only get put out to pasture if you lose your desire to keep pushing or can be replaced by a wet-behind-the-ears 23 year old fresh out of college since you didn't keep current or better yourself during your tenure. I fully plan on keeping my skills honed through honest to goodness practise and excercise and I plan on having union shops (and others) hire me as a consultant to figure out their problems. You can't do that in a union.
Unions have their place. When you have a mid-to-large size workplace in need of unskilled to semi-skilled workers to perform various duties more or less the do the same thing, unions are great. Nobody likes doing the same thing day in and day out but it's a paycheque and if you're that type of person or that's the only type of work you can get, unions have their place. If you want to punch the clock and do the same shit day in and day out and not give a shit what the company is doing or how to make it more profitable, then unions are definately for you. If your workplace is hostile toward its workers and, in general, the employees don't have the in-demand skills, the stomach for risk or the option of moving elsewhere, then unions have their place.
However for skilled to highly skilled workers who should have the brains and common sense to stand up for themselves because they could find another job or even relocate, unions perform absolutely no useful function.
It isn't about sticking together. I prefer to choose my loyalties myself, and I prefer to make my own mind up about whether I want to work or leave (or strike). I am very loyal and will fight tooth and nail for a cause or a company I believe in, but that is my choice to do so, not some union leader who's pockets are getting greased by every special interest group out there and who would rather push for an 18% wage increase over job stability. (Yeah, whose interests are being served there? The employee who will be out of work in a year or the union leader who gets a percentage of every union member's wage?!) I can name at least a few companies off the top of my head who have been priced right out of the marketplace by their unions. I've seen it happen and I will have none of it.
Re:Lie (Score:1)
Re:Lie (Score:2)
"Yes, sir"
[walking, door closes]
"Roberts, I've just received some information that's rather disturbing to me, to say the least"
"May I ask what, sir?"
"It looks like you lied to us on your resume..."
[silence]
"There are several omissions that you've made... I was talking to an old friend and discovered he was a former employer of yours at IBM. We expect our pizza delivery drivers to have the highest degree of integrity. Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions to see if these things I've heard are true."
"All right, sir."
"Now, is it true that rather than managing an Avis Rent-a-car desk for the last two years, you were actually managing an IBM project to develop a complex XML-Java based reservation tracking system that would have been deployed throughout Avis?"
"Well, yes sir, it is."
"And I also understand you were not a branch manager for McDonalds the two years previous -- you actually spearheaded the content management system development for their website."
"Yes, sir, that's also true, but I didn't actually lie about that, I just said I supervised a small production team at McDonalds."
"Yes, well, your omission in the education department is perhaps more disturbing. You have a B.S. in Operations Research from MIT"
"It didn't seem relevant to the job sir, I just left it out."
"My friend informed me that while there you volunteered to work on a team that built a solar car to be entered in nationwide a race."
"Well, automobile engineering's always been sortof a hobby for me, and..."
"Roberts, this sort of thing just can't be tolerated. How do I know what else you're lying about? Integrity is an important part of our commitment to Quality. I'm not sure we can let you continue to be a Domino's driver. Go home. I'll call you back."
Re:Lie (Score:2)
Re:Lie (Score:2)
I didn't think so. In that case, a meaningless assertion. Starting one's own business takes time and money (a great deal of both), and is unlikely to handle what appears to be this man's need for a steady income. It's no different from the contracting he's already trying to do.
In other words, you're wrong. Try again.
Re:Lie (Score:2)
Cool! (Score:2, Insightful)
When you put in that application to WalMart, *don't* tell them that you made $68 an hour. Tell them you made $7.15 an hour.
That way they'll think that you might stay if they pay you $8.00 an hour.
Good luck!
Re:Cool! (Score:1)
Re:Cool! (Score:3, Interesting)
I did the same exact thing for the job I am at now.. I softened the resume and started getting calls. My last job paid below average for what I was doing and the one I have now pays above average so in the end I'm not really making that much less. Of course now I deal with end users which I thought I'd never have to do again. Bottom line, it pays the bills and I am not under any pressure. I want to eventually move around again and I hope this job will not be a negative in the future, I'm trying to stay in the loop. I actually have fun calling the system administrator and telling him that the mail/file/backup/etc server is all jacked up again. Then I add a "maybe you should just reboot it again"
Apply at colleges... (Score:3, Insightful)
Lie.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Lie.... (Score:2, Flamebait)
Holy shit, that's incredibly offensive.
Have you ever even met someone receiving government assistance? Or are you just another of the Randroid motherfuckers who seem to frequent Slashdot, speaking from a position of privelege mom and dad earned once upon a time?
Just curious.
--saint
Re:Lie.... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Yes, my mother and I were when I was little, after my father left us, but she worked her ass off get us off it and to get a degree so she could be something. So as for your accusation of me being unknowing you can kiss my ass. As for my posistion I have worked my ass off, paid to put myself through college, and have worked my ass off for everything I have.
As for that phrase I actually heard someone say that, and it infuriated me, that someone would have children for the purpose of getting more welfare. People who are on subsidy cause they want handouts and don't are worthless to society and shouldn't be popping out kids like pez for more money. Kids that for the most part they don't even raise. If you support that kinda of crap you are an idiot.
So suffice to say, the only moron is the one accusing someone of something that is completely unfounded
Re:Lie.... (Score:1)
Lived across the hall from one. Found out she was on welfare because she went "out" at 10pm, and her 3yo sprog got spooked, somehow managed to open the door, and was wandering the halls shrieking in horror/fear at being abandoned.
Roommate went to investigate a possible injury, and found the door open and an infant asleep in a cradle.
After herding 3yo back into the apartment, we basically kept watch outside the apartment (to make sure nothing else went wrong - now aware of what was going on, it would have been criminally negligent of us to walk away) for about half an hour until "mom" came back with groceries.
(I guess "mom" couldn't leave 'em while they were awake, and she "thought" they'd stay asleep, for values of "mom" and "think" approaching epsilon.)
"Mom" was also pregnant with #3. "Dad", of course, didn't live there.
We considered the issue closed - a sad way to live, but in this particular instance, no immediate harm, no signs of abuse or malnutrition, so no foul. (And since calling the authorities wouldn't solve the long-term harm their lifestyle is doing to their sprog, no point.)
Our landlord must have received complaints from other tenants, though, because "mom" decided to pack up her brood and move to another apartment a few weeks later. One day, out of the blue, he said "Section 8. I can't do anything about it. But thanks for doing what you could."
Welfare is slavery - not just for the taxpayer, but for the recipient - and it must end.
Are you sure that you aren't just using them? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that employers want to know how long you want to work for them. When you go in and hand in your resume, do you explain to them that the IT market is not good right now? If you just go in and ask for a job, how will anybody know that you will still be around 3 months from now? How do *you* know that you will stay with the company 3 months from now?
Anyways, my story is that I moved to another city and planned on finding a simple retail job to get me settled in for a year. After that, I intended to find computer work. The reason that I wanted to wait a year, was because finding computer work is hard.
I would ask to speak to the manager, and when I saw him, I would say, "Hi. My name is Eugene, and I am new in town. I'm just looking for some work right now to help me get settled in for about a year. After that, I'd like to get some computer work. Have you got anything available?". This got a me a job the first day that I tried it. In fact, I got 3 interviews and 2 job offers. One was with Grand & Toy [stationary company] and the other was with McDonald's as an assistant manager.
People understand that the
If a job offer for an IT job comes your way at $50K/year, are you honestly going to stay around flipping burgers or running a cash register? If not, then you can't make promises to them.
Re:Are you sure that you aren't just using them? (Score:2)
By definition, history is not repeatable.
Eh? History repeats itself all the time. The main reason we study it is to avoid the mistakes of the past.
Oh my wealthyness (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't it a rule of thumb that the more you make, the longer it will take you to find a similar job in a competitive labor market?
If you are really hard up why don't you just lie or refuse to disclose your previous salaries? You do have this option, no matter how hard HR leans on you- I say this from experience. You can also say that you're retiring early and need something to do, or say that you're staying home to help with a toddler or going back to school for a couple years and want a part-time job. There's lots of reasonable excuses for looking for a "not great but puts money on the table" job.
You could also try doing some freelance consulting to pass the time. There's always people who will need your help if you take the time to find them and negotiate a price they can afford.
And then there's the time-honored tradition of hitting up all your ex-coworkers for possible opportunities. Hopefully you weren't a BOFH!
Unemployment will get you at least a 6 months buffer in any humane US state as well.
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:4, Interesting)
I was making $65,000 / year at my previous job, and when my employment there ended [slashdot.org], I applied for unemployment. I was denied unemployment because I made too much money. Apparently, if you gross over $600 / week in New York State, you are ineligible for unemployment. I listed my position as "programmer" and they denied me because "executive, administrative and professional employees earning over $600 a week are exempt from the wage payment provisions of the labor law." I'm curious: does that mean I didn't pay into the unemployment system, since I had no hope of getting anything out?
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:1)
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:1)
sorry, meant to say "...other than that you aren't disqualified."
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it means you did pay into the unemployment system, even though you have no hope of getting anything out. UI, as presently structured, is glorified welfare, but it doesn't have to be.
While welfare can't be privatized (there's no money to be made), genuine, risk-based, unemployment "insurance" can, and IMHO, should be privatized.
At present - and as you've found out - UI isn't insurance, it's merely a tax. Most people pay more premiums, but are ineligible to collect. (And guess how much of the UI "premiums" collected actually get paid out to the few workers poor enough to collect, as opposed to skimmed off into the sinkhole of general tax revenue?)
But UI could be privatized. The cyclical conditions that precipitate payouts (high unemployment) coincide with cyclical conditions in the economy (recession) that coincide with cyclical movements in interest rates (Greenspan :-)
This means that a private insurer could anticipate periods when payouts are likely to be high or low, and adjust an investment portfolio to take advantage of anticipated interest rate movements.
The portfolio would be funded from premiums. Just as medical insurance costs more for smokers, unemployment insurance would be more expensive for seasonal workers like fishermen (who, on the East Coast, are likely to be unemployed in winter), and less expensive for workers in fields in high demand.
The beauty is that (unlike the current system, based on coercion - everyone pays a tax, by force of law, but not everyone can claim) participation in a genuine unemployment insurance plan would be optional.
Are you a really good fisherman? Skip UI, and use the money to improve your gear, allowing you to catch more fish, to tide you over during the winter freeze.
Are you a really lazy fisherman? Pay for the deluxe UI package. Work 10 weeks a year, get paid 52. (The cost of this package would probably exceed what you can catch in your 10 weeks. That's your problem, though.)
Are you a really lazy programmer? In a hot industry, but think the good times might end? Worried about them H-1Bs takin' your job away? Buy a fat UI policy - just in case. Pay 5% of your salary in premiums, and in the 1-in-10 chance that your employer shows up on FuckedCompany next week, collect 50% of your salary until you find another employer with a foosball table and Aeron chairs at every cube.
Are you a really good programmer? Think you'll never be out of work? Skip UI altogether. Save the money for a rainy day, just in case you're wrong, or go buy a Ti4600 and hope you're right.
A privatized UI company would be incredibly motivated to get its out-of-work insurance claimants back into the job market, because it would drastically cut its expenses. It would want you to get a good job, because having a good job reduces the probability that you'll need to claim against your UI policy in the future. You could get your MCSE or other industry-recognized certifications as part of UI. Your insurance company would gladly give you placement assistance.
Contrast this with Government, who has zero motivation to get you back on the job (it's not their money), and every motivation to use their "back-to-work training" programs as ways to reward friends and campaign donors. ("You have my campaign $10000 last year. Here's a $1.5M contract to build a computer literacy center for UI recipients in our district. Sure, 386s running Win3.1 are fine. They're 'computers', aren't they? It's not it's any money out of either of our pockets if they ever work again.")
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:2)
It's nice to *think* that you're making $75 for each billable hour, but if you put that number down on your resume you're really stating gross, not net, income.
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:2)
The reason to be an independent contractor isn't the money; sometimes you can clean up, and sometimes you don't. I do it for the freedom. There are few things sweeter than telling a client that because they're a pain, it will cost them 30% more. Except, perhaps, having them pay it!
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:2)
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:2)
Re:Oh my wealthyness (Score:2)
How does that work? I earn less than you, live in a desirable neighborhood in one of the most expensive and highest income-tax cities in the USA, eat out four nights a week, and take several 2, 3, or 4-week international vacations (Europe, Asia, Africa, etc.) a year. From a zero bank balance a few years ago, at this point if I lost my job I'd be able to coast for two years without having to move.
Must be a lot of DVDs...
yay for the military (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:yay for the military (Score:3, Funny)
o/~ i thought about the army.. o/~
Re:yay for the military (Score:2)
Re:yay for the military (Score:2)
Downside is that capitalism is inherently expansionist.
oh well, stick to raising money for taxes to give to people to run submarines.
Bugger it's all so complicated. I wish I was 20 again. I knew all the answers then.
Re:yay for the military (Score:2)
Re:yay for the military (Score:1)
"The government said i had a certain moral flexibility...."
Re:yay for the military (Score:1, Informative)
Toxic gas in the torpedo room. All hands don EABs.
All hands turn to, COMMENCE FIELD DAY.
'nuff said.
Re:Nuclear Submarines. (Score:2)
2. "Battle shorts" require the permission of the Commanding Officer and one hell of a casualty.
3. I have served on a submarine and know that of which I speak.
4. Whoever modded my post as a troll is either an idiot or a lifer dig-it dog. And I have plenty of karma, so bring it on.
Re:Nuclear Submarines. (Score:2)
Like many of my posts (hee hee), submarine life can be overrated. I was young enough that often I didn't realize how cool what I was doing actually was. But there are plenty of drawbacks to submarine life (lack of sleep, boredom, drills, boredom, drills), particularly for an enlisted man, who typically stands 3-section watches at sea (6 out of every 18 hours) in addition to doing his job, running drills, etc. I would advise anyone with the ability who's interested in joining the military to do so as a commissioned officer.
I was on an SSBN (boomer) that didn't do exciting port calls, etc. (The motto was "hide with pride.") The technology was interesting, but, because of the nature of life-safety, weapons systems, and nuclear power certifications, was hardly cutting edge. The main computers in the area I worked had 32K of core memory. One of the computers used for navigation had a drum memory. Great if you're interested in classic computing :).
With the Trident system, the technology is now based firmly in the early 1980s--the navigation computers run 68000s.
Re:Nuclear Submarines. (Score:2)
At least the reactor protection systems had 8080's
Re:yay for the military (Score:2)
Now, working as a civilian employee of the government or for a defense contractor, *those* are potentially Regular Jobs.
Try Banff, Alberta, Canada. (Score:1)
Some day, I expect to go there as well.
Re:Try Banff, Alberta, Canada. (Score:1)
understate your resume!! (Score:1)
but tell the full truth either. i mean after all, half the content of the resume is jack-shit. right?
oops... (Score:3, Funny)
How do you convince a hiring manager that you aren't simply using them as a temporary stepping stone (even if this is true)?
Certainly not by admitting it on slashdot, Justin.
Re:oops... (Score:3, Insightful)
Pizza? (Score:4, Insightful)
Assuming you don't have a friendly pizza place hiring nearby, my other efforts - selling stuff on eBay, and networking your gluteus off to get website or consulting work (even if it's just upgrading an old P-120 for someone's Mom...) is a good way to bring in a few bucks while passing time in a quasi-productive way. You can also take time to learn new skills, from books or classes, that you never got around to while employed.
The most important lesson I've learned is to keep my income sources diverse. I still deliver pizza one or two evenings a week, I still scan eBay for poorly-advertised stuff I can buy and resell at a profit, and I still do websites and upgrades for people whenever I get a chance. No one person, company or even industry can determine whether or not I earn money.
Re:Pizza? (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously though, it is good to have a practical skill outside of computers. In my case blowing glass pipes is good for a solid $20-$40 an hour, and if world governments collapse leaving us in a post-apocalyptic Mad Max world I have someone to fall back on.
Re:Pizza? (Score:2)
I've taken glassblowing classes at both community colleges and state universities (you'll find it in the chemistry dept.) and I love blowing glass. It's very therapeutic and a lot of fun, but a good way to make money? Hmm. I'm not so sure. I've spent a lot of time and money buying glass stock and building custom torches to get killer bends and making all kinds of various custom equipment for filling neon signs. I spent months as an apprentice in a small neon shop and hung out in bigger shops trying to get a feel for the trade. My feeling was, avoid the big shops. You'd be better off as an auto mechanic.
As well as doing lampwork --ie making trinkets-- building chemistry lab equipment and even trying to supply paraphenalia to head shops. (The last two being an obviously risky combination.) I've tried quite a few angles on making glasswork into a paying proposition and everything I've seen in many years of amateur glassblowing and neon sign making suggests that it's difficult to make it profitable on your own even you hustle hard and if you work for someone else the pay sucks and the conditions are terrible. It's an awesome hobby and should be a requirement in school. But I'm skeptical that it pays the bills as easily as you're suggesting.
Now if you're saying you can make ten --let's say tobacco-- pipes in an hour and sell them for four bucks a piece, I've got no problem with that, but that's not really the same thing as a steady job which is what someone who used to be a programmer is hoping for.
In the end glassblowing is an art like sculpting and welding can go in the same category. That's great if you're looking to express yourself, but if you're talking about making cash bucks --you're just fucking around.
Re:Pizza? (Score:1)
Re:Pizza? (Score:1)
Re:Pizza? (Score:1)
It's been said here... (Score:4, Insightful)
you need to downgrade your resume alot, and dumb down when you talk to compusa, remember these IT people at compusa barely operate let alone understand IT.
Teach! (Score:4, Interesting)
If you find the right district (or private school gig) and you have the skills, they'll help you work around the certification thing while you work.
it might also help to be flexible about location.
Re:Teach! (Score:1)
Re:Teach! (Score:1)
The right resume for the right job (Score:2, Interesting)
One of the secrets of getting hired is to write a custom resume for each job. A resume is supposed to show a selection of your qualifications, not be all encompassing. List your credentials for the particular job. Write a custom statement about what you want in a job, etc.
The nature of the resume is a sample. You are under no obligation to list all of your experience nor do hiring managers want to see it all. So when applying for a programming job, you show programming experience, etc. Don't show exhaustive system administration or internetworking experience. Also, so that you don't get hit with the dreaded overqualifation tag, don't show 20 years worth. The last 5 years is fine.
I suggest you get a copy of some of the books on job searching. Finding a (or the right) job is a full time job. "What Color is your Parachute [amazon.com]" is a good example is a good example of this genre.
I'll agree with the guy few posts above me (Score:2, Informative)
recruiting website plug (Score:1)
CV Writing Tips and much more [thebigchoice.com]
Are times really that bad? (Score:1)
But if u really have IT experience and dont mind doing anything why dont you teach? Kids are still willing to learn IT as by the time they are looking for jobs IT will be back and about.
Re:Are times really that bad? (Score:1, Interesting)
Starting wages in SoCal for basic tech are in the $9 an hour range. One can barely afford an apartment with a roommate at that pay here.
for work in a nice office environment
This applies to half of the jobs. The other half put you in your car (with mileage pay if you're lucky) maneuvering through traffic to small businesses who keep their computers in grungy little rooms that collect dust, heat, and insects.
with coffee breaks whenever u want
My last job was as senior help desk/desktop technician/general problem solver at a Fortune 500 company. I was lucky to be able to get through lunch without being told to pick up the phone or having to answer a page. I'm now at a company with a lower stress level and not as much general work, but I still have to take a cordless phone with me when I leave the desk.
In order to teach in California, you have to find a school that will accept you and has the money to pay you. Unfortunately, I expect a huge series of cuts to the college system, meaning a decline in the number of IT-related side courses, especially in community colleges.
Re:Are times really that bad? (Score:1)
Or have u considered overseas jobs?
How to get a Joe Job... (Score:3, Funny)
(2) Start buying your clothes at K-Mart "end of season sales". Color co-ordination and size matching need not apply.
(3) Marry someone you suspect, but not necessarily know, might be in the same bloodline as you. She should change her name to something like "Sue-Ann" or "Peggy-Sue".
(4) Acquire a 1979 Ford F-150. Place two armchairs in the flatbed for when ma and pa need a ride.
(5) Apply for job at K-Mart, gas filling station, fast food restaurant of your choice.
And, et voila! You too will have no trouble living close to the poverty line.
Re:How to get a Joe Job... (Score:1)
Re:How to get a Joe Job... (Score:2)
You diss the arm chairs in the back, but let me tell you, nothing beats backing up to the local river or lake, turning those chairs around, putting a cooler between them, and fishing for a few hours in all the comfort of home...
My Advice: Relocate (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, relocation is a pain - just did it last year myself. This makes the 2nd time I've moved to places other than my first choice of living areas...been happy both times. When I was laid off last year, I looked in my large metropolitan home first...after three weeks, looked nationwide. I considered Nebraska, Mississippi, all sorts of places most people wouldn't pick as their first choice. Personally, I'd rather be working than unemployed or flipping burgers. And I'm too young (and so are you if you're under 50) to lock yourself down to one geography. If you want steady upward mobility, you have to RELOCATE SEVERAL TIMES IN YOUR CAREER.
If you cast your net wide - the whole US, go anywhere, do anything - you will find work if your skills are in demand. If you don't find work, then your skills are not in demand or your experience isn't sufficient and you have to lower your sights or improve your skills or both.
It's simple market mechanics. Brutal if you want to call it that, but simple nonetheless. If you're not finding work in your home market, then you need to look in other markets. You might end up in some place you don't like, have never heard of, or not your dream, but you'd be working.
PS...I've never met anyone who was both a senior sysadmin AND a senior programmer. I've also never seen a truly senior admin/programmer who was out of work for long. I'd pick which one you like better and go gonzo on it.
Re:My Advice: Relocate (Score:1)
Re:My Advice: Relocate (Score:2)
NOOOO - the whole WORLD is a much better, and more fun, bet!
Relocation sounds sucky, especially if you have a lot of baggage - kids, wife, girlfriend, big teevee. But it's actually more likely to be a positive experience the FURTHER you travel. Just picture yourself on the porch in your slippers when your 80 telling the grandkids "When I was 30 I spent a year in Mumbai leading the development of some cutting edge prOn distribution software - you should have seen the chickens out there! tasty tasty!"
This is about LIFE, not WORK. Work to Live, not the other way round. If you REALLY HAVE TO HAVE a copy of the LOTR DVDs get a job flipping burgers. If you REALLY WANT SOME FUN IN LIFE relocate to any old place and drink it in!
Germany is a HUGE laugh.
Try an ISP or crappy comp gig. (Score:2, Interesting)
But After that I had 3 glorious months of over competition for every job out there. So I took myself out of the running for a corporate job, and applied at some small local ISP's. I got hired by one as a tech support worker for $10 per hour. Not enough to survive on my own with, but enough to share a house with 4 others.
It's Loud, the Dialup support calls were hell, and the roommate were messy. But they bumped my a the secondary Unix admin after 3 months. (see as how that was my previous job) So may pay went up agood amount. And I still live with 4 loud roommates, and I save all of my money.
I kinda hope to return to the corporate world eventually, but that's just for the money. I love my Small ISP, and it's employees, and my free SDSL access.
Unemployment and Entrepreneurship! (Score:3, Insightful)
My answer to this was to file for unemployment. If you haven't, you should. Its good money, and you *earned* it because whats being returned is money that was taken from you before. Unemployment is not welfare.
Secondly, start a company. Anyone who's an unemployed geek in the Seattle area, drop me a line. I started a small business (runnable only by me so I can work during the day if I need to). I've found that I'm getting turned down for jobs in part because I put the business I started on the resume-- people think I'm not going to work for them full time.
But that business returns positive cash flow, allowing me to spend money building another, bigger, business. (Which is why I'm looking for fellow entrepreneurial geeks) I've some ideas that will be really big, there isn't the competition there once was for staking out space in the industry-- most companies are shrinking or retreating. Now is the time to boldy go forward and start a
Now is the perfect time to start a company- resources are cheap, from office space to engineers and the competition is not getting off of the ground because most of your would be competitors are going the VC route and finding VC funding hard to come by. (There's a simple solution to this if you need investment- some businesses inherently need investment- but I'm not going to reveal it here.)
Anyway, its a good time to start a company and you should use unemployment to smooth things over.
Plus you won't have a difficult to explain gap on your resume in a couple years.
Re:Unemployment and Entrepreneurship! (Score:3, Informative)
Except that if he was working as a consultant before, he can't file unemployment against the employer (client) because that would be a red flag to the IRS to reclassify him as an employee. The employer (client) would be liable for back taxes and penalties: not a good way to create strong customer relationships!
Just lie. (Score:1)
When all else fails, omit details (Score:3, Informative)
The solution, of course, is to alter your resume when applying for certain jobs.
The simplest strategy is to simply offer no resume: for the burger flipping job, or many other minimum-wage positions, presenting a resume is probably a red flag all by itself.
On job applications (or on your resume), do just the opposite of what most folks do: understate and deflate your experience.
I suppose the worst problem is how to fill the blanks: if you were working at a dot-bomb company from 1997-2001, you can't just leave those years blank without raising concerns (though if you have young kids, you can report that "following the birth of my first child in 1996, I decided to spend more time at home" without actually lying (maybe you didn't ever manage to act on that decision, for example, until the company's Chapter 7 filing in 2001).
Or just make some minor changes in the way you describe that job: if your resume now says, "Chief Technology Officer supervising 65 programmers and maintenance of 200 web servers from 1997-2001," try changing the title to something that sounds a lot less grandiose (like "Computer Operator" or "Equipment Manager").
Let's face it, being "over-qualified" for a job you want right now, is a problem that most people only dream about.
Re:When all else fails, omit details (Score:2)
Of course, I might be wrong.
Re:When all else fails, omit details (Score:3, Interesting)
From my perspective, when hiring, it depends on the job. Am I going to find a programmer who is 'over-qualified' for a position? No, probably not--whatever experience they have that is over and above the requirements is cool, as long as they're willing to work the position for the pay that's offered.
But there are positions where I really want just a total drone, too--the ones where if the employee starts thinking too much, it just causes trouble. I don't need a junior level tech support guy trying to re-engineer my network. If he used to be a senior sysadmin, that's almost certainly what's going to happen. This is IT--there is no one right way to do anything. Watch
Re:When all else fails, omit details (Score:2)
We're not talking about jobs that we WANT here, we're talking about jobs we'll settle for. And I don't know too many people who dream about not being able to get even a shitty job.
At least, not fondly.
Re:When all else fails, omit details (Score:2)
People who have no meaningful skills or experience (especially those with limited education, limited language and math skills, and no specialized training) may not "share the pain" in being hired to flip burgers, but they surely suffer more in life, and would prefer to be in the shoes of someone with better education, skills, and experience, even if that meant having some trouble getting a burger-flipping job in hard times.
Tell 'em you're burned out (Score:2)
Don't tell them (or anyone) what you used to make (Score:2)
Also, apply at a temp agency... They won't turn you down.
Don't lie (Score:2)
I believe omitting glorious details would be the way to go. Simply restructure your resume not to include information that may hinder your chances. For example, do not not salary information. CompUSA probably does not care about your salary history anyway. You are required to tell them either. Instead of talking up your previous job like you normally would, talk it down. For example:
"...where I was responsible for rebuilding the database from a Micorsoft Access db into 3rd normal form SQL based database. At that point I trained a team of programmers on 3NF and proceeded to become a certified Oracle Expert."
Let's change that to:
"...where I worked with an Access database to track our inventory."
You're not lieing, but you are showing you have some abilities above most others. Remember, lieing (even if to make yourself look worse) is wrong and could cost you a any job.
Same situation, better solution (Score:2, Interesting)
Truck Driving (Score:5, Interesting)
Six months ago recession hit me. I lost a 65k/year job (Not to bad for Illinois) and the reserves started to go.
What did I do? Well, after an exhaustive search I found and settled on (quite happily I must admit) Semi Truck driving cross country. The company I work for pays for all the training, gets me my CDL, and sends me out in a truck. Pay is low for the first year (no more then 36k or so) but within a few years you go up to 60-70k/year plus.
Thing I dig about it, I only work 2 weeks a month. 2 weeks in a row mind you, but I have 2 weeks off. And Im getting paid for it. It's not as abnormal as I thought either, normal job stuff. Drive 8 hours, etc. Only thing is sleeping on the road thats odd.
And on the upside I get to work on my OWN projects now. I'm working on a free game for fun, and talk about war driving. How about over 2000 sites on a trip from Illinois to Oregon and back. Hell, if anything it's sweet for geeks. A lot of toys I get to bring with me on runs. Plus I do IT stuff on the side.
I used to work 15 hours a day. 3 hour round trip commute, plus 12 hours in the shop. Now I'm not so stressed, the money is good and you meet a lot of cool people.
So give it a shot. I went through Schneider Trucking [schneider.com] but I see ads for a lot of other companies that do the same thing.
And yes, they hire ANYONE. Literally anyone. During training I was with 5 other IT pro's, one with a MIS. There was a college professor, and a housewife too.
Re:Truck Driving (Score:1)
how long did it take you to get a truck license or did you have one already before you applied ?
did they pay for training and stuff ? make you sign a long term contract ?
Re:Truck Driving (Score:3, Informative)
I didn't have a CDL license, they do it all.
Let me give a run down of the training.
They sent me to Green Bay, WI. Initial training was 11 days, non paid. But they pay for your hotel, transporation to and from training, and give you 2 meal tickets a day. So 100-200$ is all you need for that. Then there was an additional 5 days of advanced training at $250/week, then if you go to be a specialized driver, like me, I took another week in NC learning on hauling glass @ $350/week.
Then you team up with a driver and do teams for 2-4 weeks @ $500/week (Time varies depending on how bad they need you and how well the other thinks you do)
You have to pay for the CDL tests (round 100$) plus give the carrier 150$ for training (The pay the rest of the 3500$ class)its more to hold your seat then anything else, but non-refundable.
So I went in with a regular license and 3 weeks later had a CDL and was driving a semi. It's a lot cooler then I had imagined too. So much free time, and it's a simple job, so the gears tick better when you put your mind to something. Instead of coding all day, coming home and crashing for 5 hours only to get up and do it all again, I feel awake when I come home.
Re:Truck Driving (Score:1)
Having worked in the Government doing stuff related to current and future employment needs versus what the training/education sectors are producing, (I was a DBA person) I can say that in North America, there is currently a very large demand for long haul truckers. If you can take the necessary courses or get the company to pay for them, it should not be too hard to get a job.
Re:Truck Driving (Score:2)
What about summer work? (Score:1)
Stop Using A Resume. (Score:2, Interesting)
Emphasize you are going back to school or strongly considering it and don't light up like a Xmas tree when computers come up. Almost anyone will hire you despite sky high figures if think you want to do something while educating yourself.
All you are doing is saying, "I want to do the work, I can do the work, and I need the work".
That said if you cannot find any techie work chances are you are not really looking hard enough. How many employers a day do you contact? Do you customize your resume for each one? I know it is hard, I had a three month lull lately. It was my issue for not writing a proper resume for the PEs. Try 'What Color is Your Parachute' and 'Break the Rules'; success seems to be somewhere in the middle.
Also, appeal that unemployment claim. You are getting screwed.
Good Luck.
Crime Fighting Positions Available (Score:3, Funny)
Need honest person to infiltrate telemarketing lair and mark all potential customers as "do not call". Must be able to find your own way out of a 3,000 square foot cubicle maze.
Re:Crime Fighting Positions Available (Score:1)
What do YOU want to do? (Score:2)
If you prefer being a consultant, but you're not getting contracts, you need to up your marketing and sales. Some excellent advice is in the Contract Employees Handbook [cehandbook.com], especially the appendix on resources. Another good place to check is Janet Ruhl's site, Real Rates [realrates.com] which tells what recent contracts have gone for by specialty.
(A great tip I heard is to bypass HR altogether and ask the switchboard for "procurement" or "vendor relations". You are, after all, a business offering a product, not a worker offering to become an employee.)
On the other hand, if you prefer to be an employee, dig out your trusty copy of What Color Is Your Parachute. Do the exercises, then go after companies who do what it is you want to do.
Either way, it has to start with what YOU want to do. You might take something else as an interim measure, but always keep your focus.
I started a business while I was in college (Score:2)
Eventually I went to college (Score:1)
Certifications are good and useful, but if the other guy has a degree, you are probably less likely to be called back for a second interview.
I know your pain... (Score:2)
My favorite rejection is...
You'll leave as soon as the economy gets better...
Meanwhile my resume shows me staying at least 3 years at every company.
And when is the economy going to get better...
I also like when the HH says, "You won't be fufilled in this position..."
Lady my fucking 2800USD mortgage is going to be fufilled if I don't get a job soon.Looks like
I'll be driving a Forklift again real soon!
UPS works. (Score:2)
They go out of their way to find and keep competant workers. They won't hold too much experience against you. And if you're worried that they will, just tell them you're there to take advantage of the college refund program. Even if you're not, that will at least tell them you plan to stay several months. And in the summer months (especially in Texas), they simply cannot get enough people. Its not possible.
Although, I'm not sure what its like in other states. There are hubs in certain states that only hire new people when they lose someone, and the only time they lose people is when one someone retires after 25-30 years. Local economy
might make a difference.
Good luck in any event.
-Restil
-Rstil