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Affordable and Safe Data Protection Practices? 591

cfreeze asks: "With the recent fire at the University of Twente, I started to think 'Are the steps I'm taking to backup my home network sufficient?'. The first thing going through my mind was the need to mail a set of recent backup discs to a family member. I feel this is a good first step, but due to the distances involved it may prove to be impractical. The second was a small hidden personal safe that is fireproof. What steps are you taking?" If you are interested in truly protecting your data, you have to realize that making backups is just a start. Next comes protecting those backups from floods, fires, and other catastrophes that might occur. What do you do to protect your backups?
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Affordable and Safe Data Protection Practices?

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  • by phliver ( 258960 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:10PM (#4726042) Homepage
    but can the storage format your putting your data on stand up to the heat?
    • by MarcoAtWork ( 28889 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:20PM (#4726206)
      mod parent up: a while ago I was thinking about getting a fireproof safe for my own backups, but fireproof (as defined by manufacturers) doesn't really mean 'compatible with magnetic media', since an inside temperature that doesn't make paper burn and/or plastic liquefy, is still a temperature that will probably cook your cdr dye and/or play havoc with other magnetic media.

      I found that there were safes that were guaranteed to keep the inside at a temperature compatible with storage media, but their prices were not as affordable (obviously).
      • by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:26PM (#4726269)
        since an inside temperature that doesn't make paper burn and/or plastic liquefy, is still a temperature that will probably cook your cdr dye and/or play havoc with other magnetic media.

        Not to mention that the walls of fireproof safes are usually filled with moisture-retaining material. That helps with fires, but the humidity inside the safe is always high. Over time, that could degrade the plastic and metal parts of any digital media stored inside even without a fire.

        • by Speare ( 84249 )

          My firesafe came with a large packet of dessicant for just that reason. If you open the safe on a regular basis, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

          Silica gel is the most common type of dessicant. That's the little packet labeled "DO NOT EAT" in just about any consumer electronics packaging. I've saved the little packets in a jar for years, but I'm sure you can also buy them directly.

          I recommended to a friend who wanted to save some backup CDRs that they put a small firesafe (the kind with a handle) inside a larger firesafe. Put CDRs and silica gel in the smaller one; put hanging folders in the remaining space in the larger one. (The moderate moisture is fine for paper storage when the temperature is rising, but not as good for the CDRs.)

      • mod parent up: a while ago I was thinking about getting a fireproof safe for my own backups, but fireproof (as defined by manufacturers) doesn't really mean 'compatible with magnetic media', since an inside temperature that doesn't make paper burn and/or plastic liquefy, is still a temperature that will probably cook your cdr dye and/or play havoc with other magnetic media.
        There are various types and quality levels of fire resistant (not fire "proof") safes. Different types are required for paper vs. magnetic media (the ones for paper have a moisture-containing material in the walls that releases the moisture above a certain temperature, preventing paper from turning into dust as it heats up). And while the $75 ones from Wal-Mart are better than nothing, commercial quality safes with most of the gotchas engineered out usually start around $500.

        However, an on-site fire resistant safe is just a starting point. I am sure there were lots of them in the WTC towers and they didn't help much.

        sPh

    • by ChazeFroy ( 51595 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:36PM (#4726393) Homepage
      The submitter of this story should take a look at the ISO 17799 standard [iso-17799.com] (formerly the British Standard 7799) for data security.

      As for backups, best practices suggests that you keep one on site and one off site. The off site location should be at least 6.5 miles from the site. This distance was calculated throughout the years as insurance companies assessed damage caused by widespread natural disasters (hurricanes, floods) and the area that was impacted by them.

      • While 6.5 miles may meet some statistical standard for insurers, it's not really sufficient in the individual company's case when planning to survive large natural disasters or civil disorder (or whatever else you haven't though of).

        As an example from a large telco I worked for - data from Omaha, NE was offsited to Washington and vice-versa. Cross-country like that is your best bet.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:01PM (#4726624)
      1) when placing your media in the fireproof safe pack so that it'd survive a good fall.

      2) put the fireproof safe in a blasting shell of sorts surrounded by some explosives with a high ignition temp...

      3) you're done! when the fire engulfs the shell your safe is in, the safe itself will be shot outside... your media/backups will be safe & unmelted!
    • by gosand ( 234100 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:02PM (#4726629)
      but can the storage format your putting your data on stand up to the heat?

      Oddly enough, I was just looking into these earlier today. They make media fireproof safes. Most of them I saw say that they will keep the internal temperature uner 125 degrees F, and under 80% humidity. 125 degrees is the melting point of most portable media. They seemed pretty costly, but if you are going to get a fireproof box, why not spend the extra $100 to get one that is media friendly? I saw some decent, albeit small, ones for around $250.

    • A couple of things to keep in mind for safes:

      1) Put the same in the basement. In fires heavy things such as safes will loose support and crash into the basement and crack open.

      2) Suround the safe with non-flamable mass (cindar blocks). Or better yet, install the safe the "wall" of your basement.

      3) Put your media in zip lock bags. Sure, the media may be intact, but it only takes a tiny bit of crud to trash magnetic media. Smoke particles are often ionized and will bond tighter to your disk than the mag particles.

  • by MeerCat ( 5914 )
    I keep my home backups at work, and vice versa... works for me...

    • But what if you get fired? (in this slow economy, that is much more probable than having sth physical happening to your backup media...)
      • Well I bring them home when I get handed the black bag (the real problem is that I keep about 50-100 books at work too) and I usually start a new job the next day... ;^)

        The advantage of them being at work is that I know I have quick access, the office is quite physically secure and has fire protection, and I'm regularly reminded how old the last "offsite backup" is... whereas "mail them to a family member" - maybe not...

      • by Neon Spiral Injector ( 21234 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:23PM (#4726240)
        Then you play the little exhange game. Your data for my data. You want your shady finacial records, I want my porn. Or is it the other way around?
  • Online Backup (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ishamael69 ( 590041 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:12PM (#4726071)
    Why not do online backup? Many companies offer this fairly cheaply...

    For instance NovaStor [online-backup.com]
  • Three words: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cje ( 33931 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:12PM (#4726072) Homepage
    Safety deposit box.

    Your bank should make these available to you for next to nothing, and you don't have to worry about buying your own safe and making sure that it's secure, fireproof, etc.
    • Re:Three words: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by tjanofsky ( 6002 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:17PM (#4726152) Homepage
      While it may be safer than your house, keep in mind that banks usually do not insure safety deposit boxes, and they are often not liable if the box is destroyed (e.g., at the WTC [newsday.com]).
      • Re:Three words: (Score:5, Interesting)

        by davidmcn ( 606752 ) <dmcnelis.gmail@com> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:19PM (#4726181) Homepage
        Sure, they may not be insured, but odds are next to none that both the backup that you keep at your house, the current running version of things on your lan and your bank are ALL going to go the way of the dodo on the same day. And if your really concerned about that then keep 2 deposit boxes at different branches of your bank.
      • Re:Three words: (Score:5, Informative)

        by BlueUnderwear ( 73957 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:20PM (#4726195)
        keep in mind that banks usually do not insure safety deposit boxes,

        The idea is to keep two sets of backups: one onsite (i.e. at home), and another one at a remote location (i.e. at the bank).

        Even if the contents is not insured (what's the monetary value of your personal data anyways?), the probability that something happens both to your home and to your bank is quite slim.

    • Re:Three words: (Score:5, Informative)

      by Skjellifetti ( 561341 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:28PM (#4726287) Journal
      The one problem you might have is if you die and your SO needs to get at the backups for some reason. Many (most) states require that the box be sealed on the death of one of the owners until the probate stuff is straightened out. This is the reason why you should not keep your will in your safety deposit box. Let the attorney keep it for you.

      Of course, having said all that, I'll admit that I back up my data to CDR and put the CD in the safety deposit box at the bank. The one thing those backups contain that might cause a problem for my wife is the MS Money backup.
      • The one thing those backups contain that might cause a problem for my wife is the MS Money backup

        But this will only be a problem if :

        - you died in the fire along with the original copy (i.e. if you just had a heart attack she could still easily get to the original).

        - the safe deposit backup was the only one you kept. For things like financial info, you could easily keep a copy at work of give a copy to another family member, or give a copy to your wife to stash somewhere (probably her purse ;)
      • Re:Three words: (Score:5, Informative)

        by YrWrstNtmr ( 564987 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:35PM (#4726384)
        This is the reason why you should not keep your will in your safety deposit box.

        There is usually a provision for 'Will discovery'. One family member, usually the proposed executor/administrator, is allowed to go into the box to look for and retrieve the will. Life insurance policies as well. Nothing else may be removed, though, until after probate.
        IANAL, but I just had to go through this procedure.
      • Re:Three words: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Jason Earl ( 1894 )

        If I'm dead what do I care if the backups are unavailable until after probate. At that point I am pretty sure that backups fall into the "Somebody Else's Problem" category.

  • by Phronesis ( 175966 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:12PM (#4726074)
    When I was in graduate school, I saw enough disasters (laboratory floods, thefts, etc.) that the watchword became, "How many buildings must burn down for me to lose my dissertation data?" Multiple complete backups in multiple distinct buildings, separated by large distances on the scale of a firebreak was the standard.

    One fellow, who was paranoid about the permanence of magnetic media, even kept a copy of his raw data on punch cards (cartons of them).

    • One fellow, who was paranoid about the permanence of magnetic media, even kept a copy of his raw data on punch cards (cartons of them).

      I put mine on Kazaa as [tmd]8mile.(ftf).ts.(1of2)_COMPLETE!!1!

      Who said P2P doesn't have substantial non-infringing uses?

  • Portable hard drive (Score:3, Interesting)

    by elrick_the_brave ( 160509 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:12PM (#4726078)
    Plain and simple.. hard drives are cheaper.. the USB/Firewire enclosures usually add $80 USD to the cost though. Thing is, you can plop that in to your briefcase or bookbag and take it with ya. Another option I was looking into was USB drives.. still costly though.
  • I rarely back stuff up. I can MP3 my CD if I need to, and no one cares about pr0n anyway ... or do they?

    For the stuff I *want* to save, I usually store them somewhere on my homepage (it's neatly backed up in 2 locations), and I burn it on CD.
  • I have a box at my local bank. I take a tape there every few weeks or so for my home machines. My father who works from home takes tapes there every week. Just have a set of tapes to rotate in to the bank every so often. Box is something like $35/year. Worth having for other non-computer valuables as well.
  • by ralphus ( 577885 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:13PM (#4726090)
    I back everything up to large firewire hard drives on a rotating basis. I keep a set of near line that are in my house and turned off for emergency restores and then monthly copies offsite. Nothing fireproof or high security, just in another location where they aren't likely to get lost or stolen or to have both my house and the storage location both burn down at once. I have had one house fire in the past, even just the smoke from a small fire can do incredible damage to electronics (not to mention the rest of the house).

    I've found that the bigger problem for me is how the heck to find some backup solution that is cheap enough for home usage and doesn't just involve using multiple hard drives and can handle around 500 GB of data in a timely manner. I think that is a lost game
  • What do you do to protect your backups?

    I use the squirrel method, hiding my data on the drives of unsuspecting dupes all over the internet.

    Unfortunately, I can't remember where all of these bits are, so if my primary system gets messed up I am going to be dataless :(
  • by Slycee ( 35025 ) <rick@ v r o o p . c om> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:13PM (#4726095) Homepage
    That's nothing compared to what happened to the Univeristy of One through the University of Nineteen. Let's hope they realize their mistakes with the release of the University of Twente-One
  • Remember, not all fireproof safes are computer media safe. Some are designed just to protect paper. Personally, I wouldn't trust any fireproof safe. I'm a big believer in off site backups.

    -B
  • Home safes are only fire proof to a point. House fires can be hot enough to melt steel. I wouldn't want to take that chance with something that I could not replace. It sounds good for backups, but for data that you want to be extra careful with (code basically) a safe deposit box would be more appropriate. I have a professor who keeps CD-R backups of all of his code in a safe deposit box. I'm sure you could fit a couple magnetic tapes in there too if you want total backup.
  • by Jaysyn ( 203771 )
    I have CowboyNeal hold on to my offsite backups.

    Jaysyn
  • by tps12 ( 105590 )
    Well, data protection is sort of an interesting topic, so I'm glad this story is running. I'm interested in what strategies people have to defend against Murphy. ;)

    I am, however, a little curious as to what is so important on a home network that offsite backups and a fireproof safe (!!) would be considered. In the grand scheme of things, are your pornography collection and your high score in Lemmings really that important?
    • Re:cool (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MarcoAtWork ( 28889 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:24PM (#4726255)
      what about 8-9 years of email? my thesis? custom firewall/sendmail/other rules that would take ages to rewrite? digital pictures taken at important events in my life?

      These are just some examples why I am probably going to go through the 'offsite box at my bank' route pretty soon...
    • Re:cool (Score:3, Funny)

      by GMontag ( 42283 )
      Ooops! In my other post I forgot about my porn!

      I keep multiple copies of that on 5.25, 3.5, CD, DVD and punchcards hidden throughout Northern Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania. My home copies are on 2 identical RAID 5 systems backed up to compressed Exabyte tape librarys (one in my apartment, one connected wirelessly to my garage on the same property but 3 buildings away). The apartments have a sprinkler system, so the RAID and Exabyte cabinets are tented with plastic. Working on an archive for my vehicle that backs up through an 802.11a connection whenever I park in the garage.

      It was just my defense contracting work I was talking about here [slashdot.org]
  • Don't forget... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by puppetman ( 131489 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:14PM (#4726104) Homepage
    just because you have a backup, doesn't mean it works.

    We were backing up our Oracle database with the export-utility, and DIRECT=Y flag. Well, unfortunately, sometimes a direct backup is corrupted (a direct backup bypasses all the SQL parsing, and unloads it directy from the tablespace).

    Now we restore our backups every few weeks to our development databases, to make sure they are working.
    • Most tape backup programs have a verify setting too, but that takes so long.

      I found it even quicker to replace /dev/st0 with /dev/null. I think GNU tar actually has code that detects when it is writing to that device to make things so even faster.
      • by dildatron ( 611498 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:49PM (#4726523)
        Yeah, that's what I do to. I have found if I jsut cp everything I need to /dev/null the data transfer is SUPER fast. I haven't needed to recover anything yet, but the speed at which I can back up my system is so fast that I can afford to do full backups several times a day. It must go to a spot on my hard drive platter that is near the spindle and can spin really fast - but I'm not a kernel hacker so I'm not really sure.
    • No kidding! (Score:3, Informative)

      by RatBastard ( 949 )
      I used to work for a credit union and we had to restore the mission-critical server (HP/UX for those that care) from a tape and teh tape was hosed. We ended up having to restore from a three-day old tape and we had to re-enter three days worth of transactions, on top of having the front line staff deal with live transactions. Very, very not fun.
  • I'm sure that most of us undervalue the data we have stored on our personal equipment.
    Then again maybe not, usually when something gets degaused from one of my machines, I have it somewhere else on another.
    But your point is well taken, what would the impact be if I lost all the machines on my LAN at the same time?

    Is there a 'smart' way for me to back it up, or how would I even start to evaluate which amoung the folders of fodder were the ones to back up.
    Financial stuff would be obvious and easy, but beyond that it starts to get real muddy real quick.
    And then, how do I secure my backup?
  • Connected.com rules (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Reality Master 101 ( 179095 ) <RealityMaster101@gmail. c o m> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:14PM (#4726112) Homepage Journal

    I sleep in blissful peace because of this product: Connected Online Backup [connected.com]. All the files that change get backed up over the Internet every night on my system. It also does partial-file backups, so it figures out which part of a particular file actually changes, which works well for huge files like e-mail folders (my e-mail file is like 200 megabytes, and it typically moves about 20K every day). Of course, it automatically compresses the data when sending it.

    Security? It encrypts your data BEFORE it leaves your PC, and the security password remains on your computer. They are careful to tell you that if you lose your password, they can't recover your data.

    I've only had to restore a file a couple of times, but the few times I've done it seemed to work well. They also have a CD ordering option.

    The last time I posted about these guys some people said that restoring a lot of data tended to be kind of slow, but I don't have experian with that.

    Oh, the price? $14.95 a month, and I have several gigabytes backed up. Can't beat the price, can't beat the peace of mind. This service rocks.

    • by forged ( 206127 )
      My company has deployed Netstore backup on all our laptops throughout the company (1000's), which does exactly the same thing as the program you describe. Netstore connects to a centralized server and only backup the important directories (read: user data). It works automatically at a pre-determined time interval, and if rather unobstrusive. I have actually saved files using it.

      Of course, next comes the question about what happens if the server takes fire. I'd imagine there is a redundant unit somewhere, but that is just a guess.

    • I sleep in blissful peace because of this product: Connected Online Backup

      So you are comfortable with your backups residing with a dot com company. While farming out things can be nice for garbage and other waste removal, I don't think I'd be happy with someone else doing my backups. But then, I'm hypercritical and paranoid. Some of the technical people I respect have taken this view, but I'm too old fashioned to like it much.

    • by devphil ( 51341 )


      If Connected had a *nix client, they might be worth invetigating. Seriously.

      As it is, I'd have to do a local tar/dump/something of my data, copy the dump file to a Windows partition, boot into Windows, run the Connected program to chunk across this dump file, then reboot back into something useful.

      Thanks, I'll stick with rsync. :-)

    • by CodeWheeney ( 314094 ) <JimCassidy @ m ail.com> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:08PM (#4726674) Homepage
      Unfortunately, the poster of this Ask Slashdot question is the CEO of Connected.com.

  • If you are interested in truly protecting your data, you have to realize that making backups is just a start. Next comes protecting those backups from floods, fires, and other catastrophes that might occur. What do you do to protect your backups?

    If you lose your backups to fire, flood, or whatever, just make new backups. The percentage of incidents where you would lose both your backups and the originals (given that they are stored in separate places) has to be so minimal that only someone who is either incredibly paranoid or has some really, really important would need to do anything more than create one set of backups.
  • rsync with cp -al (Score:5, Informative)

    by gambitdis ( 444468 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:17PM (#4726143)
    We have just created a new policy of backing up to a remote location using rsync and cp -al. Basically we do an rsync then daily copies on the backup machine using hard links. There is a very good introduction here [mikerubel.org].

    We're doing this in an enterprise environment, but it would be easy to co-ordinate between two friends as well.

    --derek

    gambitdesign.com [gambitdesign.com]

  • by Anonymous Coward
    To backup all of my important data, I like to post it to slashdot. That way, it'll be in the /. archives, and eventually cached on google somewhere.

    For instance:

    Grocery list:
    Milk
    eggs
    50 CD/R spindle

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:18PM (#4726157)
    Pad your data into some porn movie and you will have loads of copies floated around the internet.
  • by Archfeld ( 6757 ) <treboreel@live.com> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:18PM (#4726167) Journal
    someone whose been burned before. The media must be stored offsite in a dark temp. controlled vault, media deteriorates so long term backups must be re-written to NEW media every 12-24 months according to vendor specs, and if the data is important you need to keep MULTIPLE generations on NEW media, and periodically PERFORM A RESTORE to verify readability and the fact that you are actually capturing what you think you are. If you are a linux/unix environment you are blessed with ufsdump, otherwise welcome to 3rd party HELL. Aix even has a bootable recovery image...mksysb i think
    • For the cheaply minded, generic safe deposit boxes at banks are a good start. They're usually pretty good about you coming in so often to pickup/dropoff stuff, and are (hopefully) pretty good about protecting them.
    • "...and periodically PERFORM A RESTORE to verify readability and the fact that you are actually capturing what you think you are."

      Absolutely right - one time, a client's business got broken into and all computers stolen. Fortunately, a cyclic zip disk backup was already implemented and all data was saved on those discs...

      ...except for this one admin assist whose very important accounting records were not on those discs. She saved them to separate floppies. But her box of floppies was bad.

      Turns out that nobody ever tested the integrity of the backed up data on those floppies! (And really, floppies are terrible for backup in the first place. They are too easily damaged.) It was pretty obivous to me that something was going wrong because the floppy drive made strange groaning noises when disks from that box were put into it, but with non-technical people such blindling obvious things simply don't occur to them.

      TEST YOUR DATA-BACKUP INTEGRITY!

  • We use Iron Mountain [ironmountain.com] for an off-site location for storing our backup tapes, but they're pricey and certainly overkill for home backups.
  • by Sheetrock ( 152993 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:18PM (#4726169) Homepage Journal
    First, you have to make sure your backup method isn't prone to mistakes. One setup I had to clean up involved reusing the same three backup tapes for god knows how long (about one file in three was properly restorable) and was missing perhaps the three most important datafiles on the system because they happened to be in use during the backup and the guy that set it up didn't realize that was a problem.

    Right now, CD-Rs (not -RWs) seem to be a great way to store moderate amounts of data. -RWs suffer from degradation pretty quickly despite their rewriteability (I've never seen one live up to the '1000 writes' standard they claim -- more like 3-7). For larger amounts, DVD-R may be the wave of the future, but high-quality tapes are probably as good if you can persuade your boss to let you replace them from year to year.

    Periodically, it's important to store your backups offsite. A safe-deposit box works well, or perhaps a fireproof safe if you're worried about the confidentialness of your information. But yeah, I'd move that stuff offsite biweekly or monthly at a minimum.

    • For smaller amounts of data, like key documents, quicken files, and the sort, online backup could work. I just archive my most important files, compress/encrypt them, and then regularly ftp the files up to my ISP. This wouldn't work too well for an MP3 collection or anything, but for the stuff you REALLY need to be able to access, it can be a lifesaver. One of the nice benefits of uploading it to an ISP account, is that you can then reach it from anywhere in the world that you have access to the net.

      I know it may not be the most secure method, but I am willing to accept the risk of someone being willing and able to hack the ecryption on my files.
  • I'm smart (Score:3, Informative)

    by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:20PM (#4726193) Homepage Journal

    I keep all my MP3s backed up on Kazaa.

  • I presume the recovery after 9-11 was all over the board. Some companies did not have adequate backups of all their business records. While others, like the stock exchanges did fine.
  • Store them in space (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ryu2 ( 89645 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:20PM (#4726198) Homepage Journal
    Seriously. If privatization of space continues to grow, and launches become more afforadable, I'm predicting we may see businesses offering to launch your media into space, where the only thing that will destroy your data is the occassional asteroid collision.

    Might still be too expensive for the individual, but I can surely see a large multinational corporation thinking about this.
  • Get a $30-$50 home safe to keep onsite backups in. Most are fireproof for about 45 minutes. They are usually also waterproof. I don't know how well they'd stand up to your house colapsing on them.

    Get a safe deposit box at your bank to keep offsite backups in. Most banks offer these to their members for free or a reasonable rate -- much cheaper than mailing tapes or disks. I keep my monthly backups there. Once a month rides the line between "current enough" and "so often it's annoying so I don't do it like I should".
  • by redhog ( 15207 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:20PM (#4726204) Homepage
    Why do o many people use physical back-up-tapes, so that it is boring and time-consuming, and so that they don't back-up that often, which they store near the computer, so that they all can burn at the same time, when they could make a cron-job that rsyncs their data to some remote site(s) (and yes, rsync, _not_ scp or something, that would take a hell lot of bandwidth)?

    I back-up my system that way (it's about 10Gb), over a 1Mbit link. At the moment I just back it up that way to one remote site (about 5km away), but soon, I will probably back it up to one more site (about 2km away).

    This is much safer (as it is done more often), and much easier (as it is fully automatic) that tapes or CDs or whatnot.
    • Because network bandwidth is expensive for a home user. What are you going to do when your broadband provider puts a 2GB/month limit on your account and your backups start failing after the first week? The only reason this works now is because broadband providers still have competition (although they're slowly buying it all up) and neither side wants to introduce bandwidth caps (that users find distasteful, even if they aren't hitting them) and drive away their customer base.
    • by PD ( 9577 ) <slashdotlinux@pdrap.org> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:32PM (#4726346) Homepage Journal
      Better than rsync:

      unison - I keep my desktop, server, and laptop synchronized over SSL connections. Like rsync, it sends minimal changes to keep source trees up to date. I can sync over a gig in my home directories in much less than a minute unless I dumped a whole bunch of new stuff on there.

      http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/ [upenn.edu]
  • by craenor ( 623901 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:20PM (#4726207) Homepage
    If I lost my home network in a fire, the data is the last thing I'd worry about losing. But assuming I still have a house and a network to use my data with...I would just skip backups and go with full reinstall/recreate, more fun that way.
  • by buss_error ( 142273 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:22PM (#4726226) Homepage Journal
    Tempatures in fire proof safes will rise enough to destroy media. Unless the safe is rates MEDIA fireproof (or some such, I foget) it won't be enough to have usable backups after a fire.

    A good alternitave is to put your backups in a safe in the back yard.

  • scp * account@somewhere.else.than.your.neighborhood.
  • When I was in the final stages of writing my thesis, I had backups on ZIP disks:

    One set in the same room as my computer - generally a day or two old.
    One set in another room in the house - a bit older.
    One set in another house in the same city.
    One set (a few weeks old) in my brother's house about 500 km away.

    This gave me a good lifeline to sanity when I accidentally deleted my partition table a week before finishing. (In fact, I didn't need the backup - I had the partition table info in hardcopy and just reentered it.)

    Now I use my computer mostly for games, so my only backup is that my parents have copies of all my photos.

    "Paranoia is good".
  • by migstradamus ( 472166 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:27PM (#4726278) Homepage
    What about all the people who used the "Nimda Distributed Backup Plan"? Infect all your machines with Nimda and let it send your files out to dozens of people around the world on a regular basis.

  • How about having a plan to saving your family and yourself incase of fire?

    Really who cares about your email's you sent out announcing a party in the long run?
  • What do I do with my backups? I upload them to "backup servers", and in exchange for the service, I backup the server admins stuff from the backup servers. With a little bit of time and effort, and if you have good stuff to back up, you can have it mirrored at hundreds of hotsites all over the globe, making it virtually indistructable!
  • by PhantomHarlock ( 189617 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:31PM (#4726323)
    Ok here's what I do for my small (about 12 persons) company:

    You need two server machines, one to be the primary server, and one to hold a backup drive. (having the primary and backup drives on seperate machines prevents total loss through several faliure modes right off the bat, like a power supply malfunction on one machine)

    These machines can be affordable and inexpensive Pentium II or III machines.

    For this example, I'll tell you exactly what I used.

    I went to newegg.com and bought three identical hard drives, 80 GB maxtors. I also purchased a lian-li removable IDE hard drive bay plus an extra cartridge for it.

    I put one of the maxtors in the primary server machine, and made it the primary drive.

    I put the other two maxtors in lian-li removable carts, and labeled them Backup drive A and Backup Drive B.

    I put backup drive A in the lian li bay on the backup computer.

    On the primary server, I made two tasks with windows task scheduler:

    The first task does a full backup every monday night to the backup drive over the network.

    The second task does a nightly incremental backup, on every night of the week except monday night.

    When I come in on Monday morning, I remove the current backup drive, take it down to our safe deposit box at our bank, and swap it for the other drive, which has been sitting there for a week. in the evening, task scheduler runs a full backup on the drive.

    So at all times, there is at least a week of incremental backups in case a deleted file needs to be retrieved, and there is an offsite backup that is never more than a week old, and there are nightly incremental backups on-site. All you have to do is swap the drives once a week and take them to your favorite off-site location for storage.

    I've been doing this for a few months now and it's been good. I also put the server and backup machine on UPS, and the primary server has control of it through USB, and shuts itself down before the power dies.

    --Mike
  • Use the Net (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nautical9 ( 469723 )
    With broadband being so popular, all you need is a family member/friend who also has it, and write a little script to zip up and ftp/scp the backup file to their computer. They do the same to you - should a fire break out, it's doubtful both of you will be affected. If it is a concern, just add more people in the "ring".

    No need for big backup tape drives or burners, and no hassle once you have it up and running. (Of course, the usual "test your backups" mantra still applies - no sense backing things up if you're not doing it right).

    You can also use a dynamic DNS [dyndns.org] service and client apps so you don't have to constantly updating IP addresses when the ISPs change them.

  • Just mail your backup CDs to me. I need some more frisbees.
  • Having recently been considering this problem for home use I came up with this idea:

    Create a VPN with a series of trusted friends. Each person 'donates' a few hundred megs to the project.

    Critical data can then be PGP encrypted and stored on the virtual network drives manually or by backup software. This way no one can tamper with the archives.

    This works for me as I'm mostly concerned with backing up source code. It's useless for backing up digital video, but I usually don't worry about those assets too much after a given project has been completed.

    Won't work for everyone, but I think it's handy. Oh, and backup your PGP keys and keep them in a safety deposite box or something... otherwise you'll really be screwed.

  • Encrypt your files and name them something like "Hot Goat Sex", and share them on Kazaa/Gnutella/eDonkey/etc. Then, when you lose your data, you just go cruising the the net for your files again! The only problem will be sorting out your files from the real goatse.cx files!

  • I use my backup cd's as coaster, then I don't have to worry about people stealing them.

    The question I really want answered is, what is a good free windows backup program that does incremental backups to any cd burner? I found one once, but it required I have easy cd creator, which is $100 alone. I have Nero, paid for it any everything, but I can't find anything to serve me.
  • by swb ( 14022 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:35PM (#4726385)
    1) Create false identity

    2) Buy plot of land in extremely rural area close to Canadian border. Use false identity, pay cash.

    3) Build small, subterranean concrete bunker (10' x 10'). Install water-tight safe in bunker. Camouflage bunker, make it tamper-evident.

    4) Visit with data periodically.

    You now have a safe place to store things. Safe from fire, flood, and most importantly from the government. Since you bought the land with false identification, they can't shake you down for what you have stored there, unless they know about it. It's close to the border, so you should be able to get the contents fairly easily from the other side of the border -- or get the data as you go OVER the border.

    OK, so its not convenient and illegal, but hasn't true safety and privacy always been that way?
  • keep them with you (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jzs ( 516075 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:36PM (#4726396)
    I keep my home backups in my Franklin planner, which is always with me. Keeping backups in a safe deposit box or other hard-to-reach location is guaranteed to fail, as it's too hard to stop by the bank daily. Eventually, I think those USB key rings will be the way to go when their storage capacity increases. You keep your wallet and credit cards safe by keeping them on your body, so why not keep your data on your person too?
  • Broadcast (Score:3, Funny)

    by msheppard ( 150231 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:37PM (#4726406) Homepage Journal
    I periodically broadcast all my data to Vega. That way, if I ever have a catastrophic destruction of all the data, I only need to send a faster than light ship towards Vega far enough to recieve the last broadcast. If someone ever gets a sleeping virus into the system... I just send the ship a little futher and get an older backup.

    M@
  • I WORK IN THIS FIELD (Score:3, Informative)

    by JeanBaptiste ( 537955 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:39PM (#4726419)
    My customers need LONG term storage, like over 100 years. My customers use glass optical disks. They hold 10 gigs a piece, do not break down over time like CD-Rs, and being made out of glass they can survive all but the hottest fires.
    Made by Sony and Plasmon
  • by Nkwe ( 604125 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:42PM (#4726463)
    Make sure that whatever you do, you have tested your restore process and done so recently. A backup that can't be read is actually worse then no backup at all. If you have no backup then you don't have the comfy feeling of thinking you have a backup.

    When you test your restore, be sure you test it on a machine and tape drive other then the one you used to create the backup. Tape drives easily fall out of alignment. An out of alignment tape drive will generate an out of alignment tape. A mis-aligned tape may work fine in the drive that created it, but may not be readable on any other tape drive. This does you no good if the only tape drive that can read the tape is in a melted ruin.

    If you are in a Microsoft network environment or any other environment that uses a central security or configuration database, (domain controller, directory server, etc.) don't forget to have a backup plan for that as well. Recovering the data is only part of the battle; you also have to recover the logins, security rights, and all other configuration aspects of your network.

    Did you remember to store a copy of the install media and license codes for your backup software at your off-site location along with your backup media? How about written copies of your hardware and software configurations?

    As others have noted, a safe-deposit box at a bank not too physically close to your computers is an economical option. I use this option for my home network. A down side to this is you can only get to your backup media during the bank's operating hours. If you need better access, a professional off-site storage company may be a better option. Many will pick up, deliver, and manage rotations for you.

    Finally, don't forget that there are other things then fire and flood and natural disasters that can keep you from your physical equipment. Your data may be safe on your servers, but you might not be able to get to your servers if there is a chemical spill, civil unrest, or some other police action happening between you and your equipment.

  • by aderusha ( 32235 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:57PM (#4726596) Homepage
    just about any semi-urban city in america has some company that offers off site record storage. this problem isn't new to computers - people have been storing accounting and business records offsite for decades. our service comes to our building every day in a van, carts off a boatload of tapes from the tape library, and returns a month old case to be cycled back into the library. check your local yellow pages, it should be easy to find.
  • Practical advice (Score:4, Interesting)

    by onyxruby ( 118189 ) <onyxruby&comcast,net> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @05:59PM (#4726615)
    First, In a business environment. Your data safe for your media is most likely not intended to protect computer media. It is designed to protect things like papers. As a result, I have heard many horror stories of smoke damage ruining tapes, and heat damage ruining cdr's. What you need to do is to have a smaller safe inside of a larger safe. This provides an additional layer of protection for environmentally sensistive data retention methods.


    Do your incremental backup at least once a day. Do a full backup once a week on two media. Keep one on site and the second offsite at a records retention service like iron mountain. Change out media at least once a year. I have seen sites that have been using the same tape backup tapes for years religously and have literally worn out their tapes. Make sure that you also backup your security keys for your data to a safe deposit box or that offsite data retention company. It is too easy for the key to be safely stored online on an admin station or server that gets burned in the fire.


    Some companies that have very large enterprise data centers will even go so far as to have mirrored backup facilities. These companies effecticely have an entire redundant NOC that is at another physically seperate facility. Treat this much as you would your Internet servers in that you want to make sure that this facility has redundant internet and phone connectivity. Some firms that were wiped out by 9/11 had such facilities available in dedicated host sites and were able to seamlessly transition over within the day. The other firms quickly discovered that such space and facilities were taken by other WTC firms that beat them to the puch. This is by far the most expensive option there is, and is also the most survivable. For a company of sufficeint size though, even a single day down would easily exceed the millions this option can cost. Recommended only for very large operations.


    Another option if you have a campus type facility is to lay underground redundant fiber between buildings. Have your redundant servers and tape backups there. This is very expensive if you have to dig up the ground. However once implemented this is probably one of the cheapest to maintain. Many uni's do this as a matter of course. They have enough data to make the occasional tape back up to offsite facilities impractical. This also allows for much higher speed operations that an internet backup. I have worked with (very large) banking facilities and techs from the various vegas casinos, and this practice is fairly widespread there.


    I have also had a number of facilities that had mirroring in use and never realized that the primary disk had failed and that they had been living off their mirror for some time. So check your mirror every now and then to make sure it isn't running off backup. Also, if you have a raid array, make you have a hot swap /and/ a spare disc available. I have seen a nasty lightning storm take out one disk on an array, only to have the same storm take out another disk a few hours later right after the hotswap had just been put in (server room /was/ on ups and line filtering). Afterall if an environmental condition is sufficeint to take out one disk, it's usually sufficeint to take out or fatally damage another.


    Last and most important. Test your backup! I can't tell you how many times I have worked with people that had backups that were worthless. I have probably referred at least one hundred facilities over the years to ontrack for data recovery when their tape backups, hard disks or raid facilities failed.

  • by Alioth ( 221270 ) <no@spam> on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:06PM (#4726662) Journal
    At work, I've implemented an automatic nightly backup. It uses rsync to back the fileserver's files to another machine in the office, and it also rsyncs these files over SSH to one of our remote branches - so we've actually got two backups. The amount of data we have is only a couple of hundred megs (which is a good thing because whilst we have ADSL at the main office, the remote branch only has a 64K ISDN link - and this is why I also keep a local backup as well as a remote. The remote is a disaster recovery backup, the local is so we can recover from 'oh shit I shouldn't have deleted that file' moments without having to retrieve the file over the 64K link).
    This is all done by a cron job when everyone's gone home. No need to mess with physical media and having to remember to do the backups. The cron job makes tarfiles of everything in /home and all the machine's configuration files (smb.conf, squid.conf, everything in /var/named, /etc/passwd and all the usual files). Basically, in the event of our swerver biting the dust, I just want to be able to re-install the OS then untar the backups and go. I've tested it, too - when I put in a new machine for our server, I used the backups to create the new server after installing the OS.

    I do the same thing for home, too (except it backs up over ADSL to my webserver which is a continent away).
  • by Anthony Boyd ( 242971 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:12PM (#4726704) Homepage

    ...for my personal data, I just burn it to CDs every now & then, and then throw the CDs into the glove compartment of my car. Of course, I'm not backing up pr0n, so all my data fits onto 2 CDs, and since I've already got a few music CDs in the glove compartment, might as well drop the other CDs there too. My car is enough "off site" (I don't park in my house's garage) that the data will be fine if my house burns down. I've never had the summer heat bake the CDs into oblivion, they've always been fine. Low end, sure. But it's good enough for home use.

  • by Moderation abuser ( 184013 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:16PM (#4726727)
    Data protection measures should be comensurate with the risk.

    Is it 100Gb of a.b.p.e or will your livelyhood be destroyed?

    If your house burns down, making sure you still have copies of your "disgusted from Tunbridge Wells" complaints to Channel 5 will be the least of your worries.

  • by bogie ( 31020 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @06:37PM (#4726933) Journal
    Basically my system is for the cheap and really lazy average user, but it still works fairly well. You'll need to spend some money, but that's just comes with the territory.

    You need either a cdrom burner or tape drive on your server. You should be able to get a used 4/8GB DAT tape drive and scsi card off ebay for $100 max or a 48X burner for around $60. Then you'll need to get some 4/8 dat tapes which are dirt cheap at like $3-5 per tape, or some 50 packs of cdr discs which cost around $15. You'll of course need a hard drive big enough to store all your stuff, but considering you can get a 80GB one off pricewatch for under $100 that shouldn't be a problem. Also I personally use software RAID 1, which is nice, but if your short on funds you can do without it.

    Basically on your server either linux or windows 2000, you have two shares or volumes dedicated just to your data. One is your read-only permenant share of mp3's,docs and crap you've downloaded. This share is readonly as an extra precaution. You can just pull what you need off it and copy it to your temp share if the file has been changed and needs to be backed up. The other is a read/write "temp" share which besides being a area to store New data you've downloaded, is for files you've worked on from your readonly share and as a result now need to be backed up. After they are backed up, you will then move them back to the readonly share.

    On the temp share you will be using a quota system that should come with your OS. You will set this quote for say 650MB for cdrbackup and say 3.75GB if your backing up to a 4/8GB tape drive.

    Now what this system does is stops the most common problem for backups. Since most people A) don't remember to backup and B) just stuff file after file on their server, is stop them cold if they exceed their temp storage space, which now is the same exact size as their backup media. At that point you HAVE to backup, and then you can move those files to your read-only share for further safe keeping. I constantly see people who put off backing up and then realize they have 25 GB that need to be backup up to Cdr. One additional step which although like RAID 1 most people won't due, is to make 2 copies everytime you backup. This is actually really easy and it then allows you to keep one set of backups offsite and one onsite. Offsite can be anywhere, that isn't in your same dwelling.

    This system isn't one I would ever use at a client, but it works well enough, is cheap, and doesn't let the user's datasize grow widly unless they override the quota, which at that point nothing can help them.

    Hopes this helps.
  • What I do (Score:4, Funny)

    by Dexter's Laboratory ( 608003 ) on Thursday November 21, 2002 @08:21PM (#4727822)
    My carefully laid out program for backing up my data consists of these two steps:
    1. If I have no space left on any harddisk, burn some of it to a CD.
    2. Ehhh... ok, not two steps...

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