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Where Have You Found LED Holiday Lights?
Posted by
Cliff
on Tue Dec 10, 2002 07:20 AM
from the strings-of-luminescent-pearls dept.
from the strings-of-luminescent-pearls dept.
glassware asks: "Perhaps you know that LED holiday Lights last hundreds of times longer than regular lights. Perhaps you know that your local utility company recommends them for drastically lowering your electricity bill. But my real problem is, where can you find them? I've found lousy battery-operated LED lights in some department stores; but even in the best stores I give up after a half hour of searching, and so far I see only one vendor making them. Surely there must be alternatives. Where do you get your LED holiday lights?"
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Askslashdot, not AskGoogle...geez (Score:2, Informative)
Here...Ya lazy bastard [efi.org]
I mean really. This isn't very askslashdot....it's more like AskGoogle -> "led holiday lights".
Duh.
Ask Slashdot as advertising (Score:3, Funny)
Hmmm... I wonder who might have posted the question...
Um, no? (Score:4, Insightful)
BUT HE'S ASKING IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY OTHERS!!!
That's NOT advertising. Now if the article were a review of these Forever Lights, it would be a Slashvertisement. But he has pointed out the one vendor he's found, but is asking if anyone knows of other sources. (Some pages, such as the LED Museum, mention, "inferior" lights, but give no details on where to find such lights if you WANT LED lights with a transformer at the base.)
As to the Ask Google trolls - I've asked Google and 90% of the links are pages that happen to have LED, Christmas, and light on the same page but do NOT have any content related to LED Christmas lights. The only Google links that came up in my search that were actually relevant were the links posted at the beginning of the article.
Parent
Re:Um, no? (Score:2, Informative)
Search engines have supported quoted phrase searching for quite some time now. I'm always surprised at the number of people who don't know about it (or have failed to read any searching tip/faq page, such as Google's [google.com]).
Probably few vendors because LEDs suck... (Score:3, Informative)
...for this purpose.
Yes, he's saying he's only found one vendor that makes them, BUT HE'S ASKING IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY OTHERS!!!
I don't know of any others. And I can't imagine that, for the moment, there will be too many of them.
Listen, here's the problem. I love LEDs, but with current technology, they're not really appropriate for this application.
First off, let me state that, for Christmas lights, tungsten bulbs - especially parallel-wired with 120V bulbs - are a huge improvement over the previous tradition of candles in the Christmas tree. But they're still not a great idea:
An alternative would be gas discharge lamps, like those little flicker-flame neons. But they're not without their flaws:
LEDs are a great idea, since they run cool. They're commonly available in a bunch of colors, and with triple-die LEDs, the lights could literally be any color and could change on-the-fly. But there's a downside:
Sure, LEDs are cheap, but they're still an order of magnitude more expensive that the little miniature lights on those cheap Made In Bangladesh light strings. Most people won't pay the extra, will they? (If in doubt about whether consumers know or appreciate quality, consider again VHS versus Betamax, or Microsoft versus Apple.)
The transformer or switching supply would absolutely constitute a benefit to consumers, in that it would virtually eliminate the possibility of getting a shock off the string. But try to explain it to consumers: "Point the mouse at the little picture of a computer on your screen. Click twice quickly." "Stop it! You're being too technical!" Therefore, it would really only become an extra burden to manufacturers.
Dim. LEDs are a hell of a lot brighter than they were a few years ago, and while they throw out a lot of light, it's over a fairly small viewing angle (typically under 45 degrees). The net output is miniscule compared to a tungsten bulb. Most LEDs can't even be seen to be lit in direct sunlight - but even my miniature light set is clearly visibly on.
Viewing angle is small. Readily available high-intensity LEDs are generally meant for automotive taillight and traffic signalling duty. They usually only have a viewing angle of 12.5 degrees. Your tree will look pretty dark if each light is only visible for 12.5 degrees of a walkaround.
How could this be solved? Maybe clear LEDs with frosted housings in order to make the light diffuse over the entire surface of the LED? Good idea, but it's still not bright enough to be satisfactory for that purpose. Nor does the frosting, in practice, diffuse light as evenly as you would want.
My perspective? I love LEDs. They're my favorite modern electronic component. (Second is probably the MOSFET. Overall favorite is vacuum tubes.)
I've got a 1960s or early 1970s Sound A-5000 power amplifier (try doing a Google search for that! Anyone got any info on the amp, e-mail me) which blew its tungsten pilot light. The light was a GE #47 - 6V, 150mA pilot light. Consumes 0.9W off the amp's low voltage supply to light up a dim red indicator on the front panel.
So I took a traffic duty red LED that I had kicking around. Clusters of these are used to make brake lights and traffic lights. The LED is rated for 3,000MCD at 12.5 degrees with a forward voltage drop of 2.1V and a peak current of 30mA.
The resistor was calculated as follows: Vin-Vdrop = 6.3V - 2.1V = 4.2V. R = E/I = 4.2V/0.03A = 140 ohms. Next standard value is 150 ohms, and I used that. When I measured the current through the LED, it was (unsurprisingly) 28mA, 93% of the LED's rated maximum. The forward voltage drop was 2.1 volts. The LED is being driven harder than I would like, and it gets warm after a few minutes.
Even so, the dim red indicator on the front panel is still dim. Right on axis, it'll blind you, but from any other angle, the indicator is still too dim to be useful. Improvements were made by actually grinding down the end of the LED and using clear hot-melt glue to attach it to the back of the bezel, but it would still be unacceptably dim on a finished product. Certainly dimmer than the old GE #47 was, not even as bright as the panel LED on the front of my Viewsonic. And that's with a traffic duty LED, pushed hard.
In summary, naked LEDs are great when viewed on axis, used as indicators or when a fine shaft of light is required. But trying to diffuse them or expect behavior similar to an incandescent bulb is still pushing things... for the moment.
Re:Askslashdot, not AskGoogle...geez (Score:5, Informative)
I have bought, tried, and returned many LED light sets. I have hunted at all the stores listed on the ForeverBright where-to-buy page. I have been searching regularly for three weeks now. I have seen the online ordering pages; but somehow I just don't feel comfortable buying mail order when there's only a few more weeks till Christmas, and seeing as how I'll probably have to return them anyway.
Parent
Not quite there yet (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.foreverbright.com/ [foreverbright.com]
http://www.ccl-light.com/ [ccl-light.com]
Nope, ain't a lot out there.
I think many rope lights use LEDs. You should look into those.
Re:rope lights using LEDs? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:rope lights using LEDs? (Score:2)
(on-topic: personally, i have an assload of the 2$-a-string lights from wally world, which i have strung from the ceiling with fishing line to give a nice soft light in the living room)
Perfect... Maybe (Score:2)
Anyone tried this?
-C
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2)
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2)
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2)
On the other hand, This probably would be perfect for large rotating signs at raves... Maybe it would be worth the investment after all. Get enough of them spinning in unison and they could form a semi-transparent christmas tree.
Ah, holiday spirit.
-C
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not that I've bothered to check (this being Slashdot, after all), but maybe they convert AC to DC with, um, like, diodes? Somebody mentioned 80 LED strings, and with them in series, they'd get around 2V peak (which is reasonable) and the whole string would pull 1 or 2 amps.
(It isn't practical to wire LEDs in parallel, because they aren't particularly uniform in resistance, and besides, the transformer to put out 2V at 2 amps would be too expensive for Christmas lights.)
By the way, while LEDs have their advantages, they are not, generally, more efficient than other lamps. A current 'super-bright' LED yields around 2 to 5 lumens per watt, with high-end ones (which again are too expensive to be in these Christmas lights) about 10 lm/W. Normal incandescents are around 6 lm/W, although the tiny coloured ones in Christmas light strings are indeed most likely less efficient. Halogen incandescents give around 20 lm/W, and fluorescent tubes around 80 lm/W.
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
Oops, typo in the above post. Watts.
Also, they might well use two strings of 40 LEDs each.
That way they'd get brighter lights from cheaper LEDs at the cost of reliability and a little extra wire.
Re:Perfect... Maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
DRACO-
Where Have You Found LED Holiday Lights? (Score:3, Funny)
I found mine in my neighbour's garden.
(I was too lazy to use Google [google.com] and buy my own, so I stole them.)
Re:Where Have You Found LED Holiday Lights? (Score:2)
Re:Where Have You Found LED Holiday Lights? (Score:2)
My girlfriend's parents house is on a pathway and every year they have problems with this...
One year they actually cut the wires! In seveal places...
I would *love* to give those little brats a really good jolt...
Fire safe, too (Score:2, Insightful)
Who knew, a dried up dead tree strapped full of extension cords pumping mad current could be a fire hazard?!?!
Re:Fire safe, too (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Fire safe, too (Score:2)
And where can you find ones NOT made in China? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And where can you find ones NOT made in China? (Score:3, Insightful)
It is becoming increasingly difficult to find products not made in China. This is particularly true in the areas of children's books/toys and electronics. I recently had to poke through each model of DVD player offered by a chain store to find ONE not manufactured in China. In one case, the display model was made in Japan, but every single unit of that model on the shelf was made in China!
Our culture cares more about getting a cheap DVD player or kid's toy than we are about other humans working as slave labor for an oppressive government. It's sad.
I haven't found a solution other than physically visiting the store and looking carefully for the "made in China" stamp on the box. If you find one, please let me know.
Regards,
Anomaly
Re:And where can you find ones NOT made in China? (Score:2)
What I don't get is fortune cookies. They no longer contain fortunes. They used to read, "You will live a long and happy life" or "You will enjoy our DVD players". Now they read, "You work hard" or "You are a punk." Where have all the predictions gone??
On a more serious note, you know someone is getting oppressed...we bought a foosball table from Costco for work. I noticed it was made in China. How cheap must these (heavy!) things be to make if we got a good solid table made in China, shipped to the US, trucked to the store, and stocked on the shelf...er...pallet, for $149? You'd think all the overhead in getting it here would make it cheaper to build them in the US.
Re:And where can you find ones NOT made in China? (Score:2)
It is an ecconomic argument. I hold to the side that says" They can do whatever they want, I can't control their behavior. However it is immoral for me to support that in any way, and buying their products counts as supporting them - if nothing else it says "I don't like how you act, but keep the cheap (junk) coming and I'll overlook it."
The other side (which I disagree with) says that spend a lot of money on their stuff, and they will send people over here to build a relation and those people will see our way it better and go home dissatisfied by their goverment. (Obviously I don't buy this arguement so it is hard for me to get it right, hopefully you can see the point)
Re:off topic... (Score:2)
2) North Korea
3) Iraq
4) Iran
5) The [go.com] United [theunionleader.com] States [heraldnet.com] of [newhousenews.com] America [bayarea.com]
/dev/girl (Score:2)
Bad question, potentially interesting answers (Score:3, Insightful)
bad news re: bulk discounts (Score:2, Interesting)
Short answer is, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
In any quantity that a regular person would buy (as opposed to, say, someone in charge of site purchases for Disney World), you're not going to get a discount, is the long answer. (I'd like to hear contrary evidence, but that is the received wisdom so far.)
I'm not going to buy more than 10 boxes, though. I figure 10 boxes (at $20 a pop) is already really pushing it, but I don't want them for "Christmas lights" exactly -- I want them as general string lights which I might happen to use during the winter holidays borrowed from the No. European pagans, but will also set up in my room etc.
timothy
Re:bad news re: bulk discounts (Score:2)
I'm a dealer (Score:3, Informative)
Here's their page on LED xmas lights. [nsl-ltg.com]
"Suggested Retail" is $11.95 per string. Case-lot discounts begin at 24 strings.
Just FYI, of course. I'm not trying to advertise here, just inform. Many electrical supply houses (where the real electricians buy stuff) are National Specialty Lighting dealers. You might try one of them.
power source on those? (Score:2, Interesting)
Can you clairify whether those strings need a wall wart, or if (like the foreverbright ones) they just plug into a wall directly?
(Also, white would be nice
timothy
Re:power source on those? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:power source on those? (Score:2)
Why use LEDs?? (Score:2)
The 80 light LED set linked to above costs about US$20 and come only in red. I can go to my local supermarket and get a regular 100 light set for $US1.47 in a variety of colors or multi-colored. For the cost of one LED string, I can buy 13 regular ones, and still have change left over. Thats 1300 lights vs 80 LEDs!! Sure the LEDs are more effiecient and sure, they will last longer, but not enough to come anywhere close to making up the cost difference.
I think a better "Ask Slashdot" would be: Gee, holiday lights are so darn cheap these days, what other uses can we find for them?" (and no, they won't run Linux, and no, you can't turn them into a web server....or can you?)
Labor cost (Score:2)
Every year, I plug in the lights and "debug" the strings, figuring out which lights are dead. It'd be a lot easier to just have them work.
Re:Why use LEDs?? (Score:2)
Waste
First year on my own I bought a controlable string of 200 lights for $20 at Sams Club. Loved them to death with all the various settings it had (favorite was the slow fade between colors) But then next year, regardless of the fact that I put it away nicely in it's original package and inspected it before putting it in the closet, next year I had to buy a $2.00 string for spare bulbs.
Year after that I had to do it all over again so I said the hell with it and bought the $2 string and used it, tossing out the broken controled string and the previous string that was canabalized for parts. Year after than same damn thing...dead bulbs and I bought another string.
$26 spent on bulbs and all that copper, plastic and glass sent to the landfill.
Year after that I learned about the LED bulbs. Spent $20 on them. Used them for my third year now and still no dead bulbs, no frustration, no waste.
$2 dollar strings every year for 10 years, or $20 dollars for a string that will last you the same 10 years. Advantage, no waste.
And if it does hold true that they will last 20 times longer than a standard string (my personal record for an intact string has been 2 years with an average of only one) You'll save money in string costs, energy costs, and trips to the stylist to hide the fact that you ripped two huge chunks of hair out and need to hide it.
Phoenix
Re:Why use LEDs?? (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the cost difference: Lets actually run some numbers:
Let's assume a string of traditional lights consumes 100 watts and a string of LEDs consumes nothing. (I think you would agree that both of these assumptions are more than fair to the LEDs).
If we energize the lights 8 hours per day for 30 days during each "holiday season", that is 240 hours per year that the lights are in use.
If we assume an electricity cost of US$0.10/kwh(which is typical around here, but varies widely depending where you live), that is an annual electricity cost of US$0.024. Lets just go ahead and round this up to 3 cents.
Let's further assume that the LED lights would last forever, but the traditional lights need to be replaced each year at a cost of US$1.50. We now have a total annual cost for the traditional lights of US$1.53 compared to the one time cost of US$20 for the LED lights.
That means it will take the LEDs approx 13 years to reach the break-even point against the traditional lights.
And remember, I made all my assumptions in the favor of the LEDs. Real LEDs do consume some power and real traditional lights don't need to be replaced every year and real LED lights will not last forever (the LEDs themselves might, but the wiring, etc will deteriote due to exposure to sun, weather, etc). So, in reality the break-even point is probably much more than 13 years.
If you just crave the LEDs, then go ahead and buy them, but don't try to claim that you are saving money by doing it.
Re:Why use LEDs?? (Score:2)
$0.1/kwh*0.1kw*240hr=$0.024? Yeah right. More like $2.40.
Lets go ahead and add on the $1.50. Now all of a sudden we're at $3.90, and ~5 years to break even, assuming that the LED lights cost $20 as much as the traditional lights.
That's not even counting the value of your time wasted with a voltage detector debugging those pesky light strings.
Re:Why use LEDs?? (Score:2)
You are, of course, correct.
But even with my "factor of 10" error, I think my conclusions are still valid. It still takes 5 years to pay for itself. I think the bottom line is still: The electricity costs (and therefore potential savings) for either type of lights is so low as to be negligable compared to the extra cost of the LEDs.
You shouldn't have to spend any time debugging the lights if you are replacing them every year (which was assumed in my calculation).
And remember, a burned out bulb is not the only source of failure - a broken wire or damaged connector can happen to both types of light sets.
Re:Why use LEDs?? (Score:2)
Where? (Score:2, Interesting)
Marked down, last year at Kmart (Score:2)
Let me hook you up! (Score:3, Informative)
120 Blue LED Christmas Lights = £29.99 (Score:2)
from Dave @ Forever Bright (Score:3, Informative)
They have a patent on the system they use that
doesn't require a transformer and can be strung
end to end. Here's the response I got from
sales@foreverbright.com
All of the retailers listed on our Website
carry our product line, but they did not stock
all locations. This left retail availability
very poor in some areas and many consumers
frustrated.
We're trying hard to convince them to stock all locations as consumer demand for our products
is very high. It often helps when consumers
tell retail store managers they're looking for
a particular product or brand. The managers
report the requests to corporate offices for
future inventory considerations.
Raley's Drugs stocked the Forever Bright line
in all of their locations and we believe they
may have stores in your area. American home
hardware may also be worth a try. Sorry, we
can't sell direct.
Thank you for taking the time to write us.
Happy holidays,
Dave at Forever Bright
Re:Good Vendor List (Score:2, Informative)