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Is Latex Still Worth Learning?
Posted by
Cliff
on Tue Jul 15, 2003 02:15 PM
from the Is-TeX-still-king-for-math-typesetting dept.
from the Is-TeX-still-king-for-math-typesetting dept.
Bocaj asks: "I have start back to college and have to write a few technical papers. Right now it's mostly physics, but I'm a CS major and there will be many more papers to come. I've tried all of the office suites with little luck in getting them to format complex formulas correctly. I'm trying to learn Latex, but I am wondering if I should. Is Latex still the defacto standard for this kind of stuff? What about SGML or XML? What is everyone else using?"
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yes. (Score:5, Informative)
If you look around, many of the journals accept the LaTeX source -- I know that ApJ does, and I believe APS does. But you'll also notice that submissions to the NSF can be done in DVI format, as well. Many people still use it, and many still require it.
But, hey, if you don't like it, use something else and then convert it to LaTeX later. But I guarantee that if you start using it, you'll love it. I can't stand WYSIWIG word processors anymore, mainly because I can't be guaranteed of reproducible results.
Re: APS? (Score:3, Interesting)
The learning curve to latex is steep but not really long. Whatever you are thinking about doing in LaTeX has probably already been done, so try to get a template if you can and just begin p
MathCad (Score:2)
I remember using it to write a few technical papers/proofs. The student edition was very affordable and it would format the equations and to the calculations which was nice.
Just an idea....
Using Latex (Score:5, Funny)
Oohh!
Re:Using Latex (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
I'm sorry... (Score:5, Funny)
Ask Slashdot is reserved for questions regarding legal and dental advice. Please refrain from asking further technical questions that could be construed as News for Nerds, or Stuff that Matters. Thank you.
Seriously, I've been using LaTeX for papers for a long time, and have yet to find a format that is as easy to use (all you need is a text editor, files are in ASCII, etc.) and that produces professionally typeset output. However, I believe the real question is: does it fit your needs? If so, then it is worth learning.
Sheep gut (Score:4, Funny)
We use it at work; I use it at home. (Score:5, Informative)
I also personally use it at home, for the ability to define commands and environments, and the ease of rearranging content. (I keep everything in relatively small files, and include those to build up the document I want. Very convenient to rearrange by just changing where the include command is.)
One thing I have to say makes it a lot more worth it at home (I use OS X there) is the application TeXShop, which makes typesetting and viewing the output much easier. I'd recommend using this (or an equivelant program on other platforms) to make the paper creation process go much easier.
Re:We use it at work; I use it at home. (Score:3, Informative)
I guess there is a steep learning curve, for people not computer savvy. And you can use other easier programs to do almost as good. I do not regret learning it at all, and I only really used it for my Honours thesis.
For my field, yes (Score:5, Informative)
It is because of expectations like this that I require graduate and undergraduate students write up assignments in LaTeX for my scientific computing course.
Yes, definitely. (Score:2, Informative)
You will definitely find yourself typing much less boilerplate than with an SGML descendant. I don't know of other plain-text formats, which to my mind is crucial.
Also, the huge number of tools for working with LaTeX, DVI, and PostScript files means there's virtually always a solution to your current problem.
TeX and LaTeX do have
Re:Yes, definitely. (Score:3, Informative)
> I don't know of other plain-text formats, which to my mind is crucial.
What about the roff family? Text-based, non-SGML. You might know that nroff is used for man pages, but there is a related system called troff which is a full-featured print typesetter.
Front-ends for Latex (Score:5, Informative)
If you want the power of Latex but don't want to have the hassle of learning to write raw Latex, then you could always go for a GUI wrapper around it. Lyx [lyx.org] is probably the best for Latex (and I would hate to go and use anything else for generating large cross-referenced documents), but if you are also interested in generating TeX then TeXmacs [texmacs.org] may well fill the bill.
Re:Front-ends for Latex (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Yes! (Score:2, Informative)
/joeyo
PS (Score:5, Informative)
/joeyo
Parent
I use it daily. (Score:3, Interesting)
I try to use it on all projects in which I need to create badges and PDF forms.... Definately worth the learn.... Although the learning curve is worse than linux.
ChiefArcher
If you're asking.. (Score:5, Interesting)
LaTeX is a set of macros for TeX. TeX compiles to DVI, TeX input file should produce the same DVI file regardless of which implementation of TeX is used to produce it. When you write something in TeX you know how it will look in the resulting DVI file. DVI is most closely related to PostScript and PDF; however, it is not a programming language like PostScript and only contains positioning and formatting information. DVI stands for "DeVice Independant".
SGML and children (XML and HTML) are structured markup langauges. These are simply designed to store information in a human readable fashion. HTML is a slightly different format which contains formatting but no positioning information. To define positioning information one must apply Cascading StyleSheets (CSS). CSS adds the ability to format and position the text in said markup languages; however, CSS is device dependant.. the result will format/position differently depending on the device/medium on which it is presented.
Thus, if you wish to have your paper look the same regardless of the device it is displayed on; such as for a book, magazine, etc.. then DVI, PDF, or a subset of PostScript (some features are device dependant) will be perfect. If you're looking to display this information across a wide range of machines and faciliting accessibility features such as those used by the blind or the deaf, XML/HTML would be preferrable.
One other mentionable is that the LaTeX macros for TeX really speed and facilitate the process of writing books and research papers by requiring the creation of chapters, sections, and paragraphs. BibTeX will aid in automatically creating a bibligraphy, and LaTeX can automatically create your Table of Contents. Additionally, LaTeX can be easily converted to HTML.
Re:If you're asking.. (Score:2)
Yes and no. It depends. (Score:3, Insightful)
I also used to do resumes with LaTeX, which made for a distinctive look. However, once I got StarOffice, I started using it for resumes. StarOffice/OpenOffice.org does just fine, although it isn't quite possible to replicate the look of LaTeX output.
You should also ask around about Docbook, but I've never used it. Docbook, being XML-based, might be useful as a basis for web page output in addition to type-set output.
The best part about all this, is that it can all be done without Microsoft Office!!!
latex has its problems (Score:3, Interesting)
I recently had the experience of submitting a paper (bioinformatics) written with Latex to one conference, having it get rejected, and then having it get accepted to another conference. The first conference didn't have a style file I could use, and I had to go through a bazillion hoops and custom commands, packages and settings to get Latex to produce something acceptable. It was really painful to get Latex to then produce something acceptable for the second, since merely including a different style file didn't actually do what I needed.
Verdict: use Latex only if the conference or journal provides you with a style file, and you think you'll need to make ZERO formatting changes to the source of your paper.
Another painful moment about Latex is that it only does the basics well. For example, it's easy to create a table, and it's relatively easy (if crude) to create a two-column document. But it's difficult to get Latex to place that table into just one column of your two-column document, and it's a complete hack if you want to place it intellegently so that there aren't huge chunks of unnecessary whitespace due to how pages and sections break.
Will it ever end up on paper? (Score:2)
LaTeX and a Makefile (Score:3, Interesting)
For the technical writer, who plans on publishing conference papers or building large professional documents, such as a dissertation, there is no substitute for LaTeX. It is not a word processor or mark-up language but rather a true professional typesetting [bath.ac.uk] package. There really is no alternative (that you can afford).
Given that you're a CS major, you might be interested in looking at my LaTeX source code for a conference paper and my dissertation [michael-forman.com]. Because LaTeX is so much like a programming language, I created a package containing subdirectories with the class file, images, and source code and perform the build using a Makefile. If you can code and you're familiar with Unix, it is a must have. To build the document, simply type make preview in the base directory. A word of caution -- don't even bother downloading this if you run Windows. It runs like a peach in all Unices and MacOS provided pdfLaTeX is installed.
Michael. [michael-forman.com]
Re:LaTeX and a Makefile (Score:3, Interesting)
You just need to be a bit careful about how you configure the hyperref package: it needs to know how it will be translated to pdf later on: with ghostscript's pdfwrite output device or dvipdfm, otherwise the link hotspot end up in screwey locations.
I recommend dvipdfm. Not obvious to find unless you're lookinf for it, but it does an admirable job.
It was a few months ago I fought with this, but I did succeed in generating and presenting a hyperlinked presentation. I
The url says it all. (Score:2)
Learn it (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're a CS major you should learn TeX regardless of whether you're going to use it in a paper or not. It's open-source and one of the few major pieces of software that is for all intents and purposes bug-free. It's part of the CS canon, and you should learn it and read the source for that reason alone.
LaTeX isn't as hard as you may think (Score:2)
Whoa (Score:2)
Check out MathType (it knows LATEX, btw) (Score:2)
careful what you look for... (Score:5, Funny)
Lets just say that you don`t want to Google for "+latex +pictures"
Well, maybe you do, I dunno.
CJC
Re:careful what you look for... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to ruin a good joke, but actually, the first result is exactly what you want.
Parent
Timeless Format (Score:5, Informative)
While I still grapple with language idiosyncracies of LaTeX from time to time, the reason I keep coming back is that it produces the best quality output for mathematics-laden documents.
WYSIWYG systems I've hated, especially when it comes time to learn yet another gui-based equation editor with yet another set of key mappings that is not like the default emacs set I have hardwired into my brain from writing code. After you learn a few of the basics in LaTeX, like $$ \int_0^\infty \alpha_i(x) dx = 5 $$ will produce a definite integral from 0 to infinity of greek alpha with an "i" subscript there's no going back.
Besides being free (speech & beer), I have LaTeX source files from 17 years ago that still produces nice looking documents on todays computers even after changing hardware, OSes, etc. There were popular word processing systems available back then were such files would be next to worthless.
That kind of timelessness in the age of planned product upgrades and binary proprietary formats impresses me.
If you want to do version control or searching of document, then having its native format in ASCII text permits the use of CVS and grep and doesn't obligate you to buy some product to see your document.
For the future, I'd like to see something like DocBook takeoff, but it's just not there yet, AFAICT.
When someone gets a MathML parser to render as nicely as DEK's code, then I'll consider moving from LaTeX.
Absolutely (Score:5, Informative)
As for previous comments saying that LaTeX is not extensible and that the formatting and content are not separate, that is bunk. You can write your own macros, people have written image drawing programs (for diagram generation) in LaTeX, and anything else imaginable. The formatting is done for you 99%. You just specify where paragraphs, sections, whatever start, and LaTeX takes care of the rest.
The only capacity in which SGML or XML (including MathML) is used to publish scientific content (i.e., containing lots of equations and document structions such as sections, theorems, proofs, etc.) is to first write the LaTeX, then to use latex2html (or a similar program). Seriously, it is totally impractical to write MathML yourself. take a look at some [w3.org] sample [w3.org] code [w3.org] if you want. It is designed to be output by a computer program such as LaTeX.
The learning curve on LaTeX is pretty low. Just google around for stuff, and it will be easy to find what you are looking for (usually). Start with the following references (there is *no* need to ever buy a book on LaTeX):
- Text Processing using LaTeX [cam.ac.uk]
- Help on LaTeX [nasa.gov]
- The Comprehensive LaTeX Symbol List [ctan.org]
but google is your best bet. I usually just type "latexLatex is cool, but... (Score:3, Informative)
For instance, our invoicing system produces a large latex file from a database and then uses Tex to crreate the invoices. I also did a long report by using an XSL stylesheet (wchi I could send you) to convert some XML stuff into Latex. This rocks. The first thing my boss said when she pages through the document was "This look eally professional" Latex output really just looks more pleasing to the eye than Word or some other typesetting things.
I also used this XML markup typesetting thing to mark up my GF's PhD thesis and the result was actually quite awesome. There some tweaking to be done but not more than normal. And none of the Microsoft-Worde-screws-you-with-image-placement shit that all her friends had to cope with. (This these was in Immunology so had loads of Microscope slides). In the end we did all the microscope stuff on glossy paper and rest on normal paper anyways so the image palcement, which IS sometimes a pain, did not matter too much. Btw, what the hell is it with Word that places an image so that only the little left part of the corner is actually visible on a page. Why on earth is this the normal, default behaviour??!!
That said, recently I have moved our system to XSL, in particular, FOP. There are two reasons for this
First, Latex sucks with some international characters. We have a system where people can apply for membership on the web and they use all kinds of weirdo character which sort of necessitates unicode. Every once in a while my invoice thingie croaks because some member from some country in Norhern Europe has a funny accent or something on his name and the end stages dies.
Secondly, the, the difference in meta-characters is a pain to use, if someone uses a / in his company name I have to worry. and so forth. This is easier to handle in XML/HTML. The whole business of metacaharacters and the impedance mismatch this causes between stages of a publishing pipeline can be a serious headache. Our system produces text by exporting XML and using the XML to produce Tex. The meaning of a or a \ in an input string can get prety damn confusing.
The third reason is more compelling. Our secretarial staff sometimes needs to update the templates from which we generate EMails. It is mucho easier to do this with a simple subset of HTML (which is what we use) because all of them know the syntax sort of and the other technical guy can help them much easier. I wrote a Java program to process this into XSL:FO and pump it all through FOP while looking up the embedded fields in Lotus Notes. THis works just beautiful, nor problems so far, and quite frankly, the amount of code to manipulate XML in JAva or any other language is muuuuuch more than that to manipulate Tex. A lot of the common metacharacter issues are automatically taken care of, for instance.
Lastly, if you are doing complicated things such as this, Latex's philosophy of "leave the page formatting to me" jsut does not cut it. You can get it right, but it is extremely sensitive to small changes that breaks everything. XSL:FO handles this much better.
I might also add that FOP uses the latex typesetting algorithm. Other XSL:FO rendering tools, RenderX in particular, does not and the output from FOP simply looks better. The output from RenderX looks awful.
I hope that helps. Yes, it is being used in a business setting to produce all kinds of things from papers to invoices with tables and letterheads and whatnot. I might also add that we use these tools because we a a very cost-conscious nonprofit and use Linux for all our servers where a script that happesn to be a Lotus script program outputs fields into a xML file that is used by a PYthon program to convert the output to Tex and then uses Tex to format simply works
There is also a XML syntax frontend for Latex AFAIK. If you are really interested I can only reco
LaTeX can do Unicode (Score:3, Informative)
Ulrik
Bibliographies (Score:4, Informative)
Admittedly, bibtex (Latex's bibliography subsystem) is a bitch at first, but there is an extra package called jurabib [dyn-fli4l.de], originally designed for supporting the awkward quoting/bib style of German law texts, but later expanded to handle about any style on the planet, as far as I can see.
Latex is old and weird, and it has its quirks, but it works best for me.
Totally! LaTeX is still worth learning... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? My reasons:
#1) If you've done any HTML coding, or are a programmer in general, it is pretty easy to pick up the basics. You don't need to learn all that much to get the core of what you need to do- lists, bold/italic/underline, centering, paragraphs, tables, and some symbols.
#2) You can use tools like LyX to do the work for you. Even if you never learn a lick of real LaTeX code, you still end up with a beautiful document, and any of the other benefits.
#3) You can use LaTeX without having a GUI. Or a newer computer. Or a "full" word processor on a "full" OS. That is, you can write, compile and print out LaTeX docs on a DOS machine, from the console on a Unix machine, a PDA, etc.
I initially decided to learn LaTeX because there was a simple TeX compiler for the NewtonOS, my PDA platform until recently. There was also NewtonWorks- a good mobile Office suite- but there was no simple way for me to output the document and print it without docking with a Mac or Windows machine. With TeX for the Newton, on the other hand, I could export the text to any machine, compile the TeX on the machine itself or on the university mainframe, and then print.
I had to move on around a year ago from the NewtonOS, at least as my primary platform. On the Jornada 720, a Windows CE micro-laptop Handheld PC 2000 device, I started writing my papers using a real version of LaTeX- the same thing as I was using on my OS X machine. Editing the LaTeX code in emacs no less- all on a PDA! The whole cycle- editing, compiling, viewing (with WinDVI) and printing can all be done on a PDA. There are easy to install WinCE packages [rainer-keuchel.de]. I also had a PocketPC for a while, and the packages all worked very well there as well, but editing wasn't as nice as it was on the J720- it has a real keyboard. I've recently switched to the Zaurus SL-C760, and am a bit disapointed in that there aren't any easy to install ipkgs, along with a decent Qtopia LaTeX editor. Alas, I'll work on it soon enough- I'll need to be able to write up LaTeX docs and compile to PS before school starts.
#4) I had another reason, if I remember, I'll put it here!
#5) It's entirely free. Yeah, you could get OpenOffice. Or you could pirate/buy/get bundled MS Office. OO has generally just been a huge hassle for me; MS Office (I'm on OS X) is generally faster, more stable and less of a hassle than OpenOffice, but introduces its own set of problems.
Yes, unfortunately (Score:3, Informative)
Kinda like C, isn't it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep. I've always thought of LaTeX as being kinda C-like. Everyone knows it sucks in places, the syntax is hideous and the tricky bits require a minimum of guru status (and preferably demigod) to get right. And yet, it's awesomely powerful, it can do almost anything if you ask it nicely enough, and no-one has yet made anything with even close to the same level of power and a significantly nicer interface. For these rea
MathML ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Absolutely! Plus, LaTeX is cvs-friendly (Score:3, Interesting)
1 - we're stuck using Word. Not likely to change. Proposals, like thesis work and peer-reviewed journals, are one of those times when you do *exactly* what the submission guidelines say, and everything we get says "submit in Word 97/2000 format." A couple of iconoclasts try to do their part in OOffice. Sadly, these proposals always get complicated enough that OOffice just destroys formatting throughout if any segment was created in OOffice. But we're trying to get off Word.
2 - Most of my coworkers have used LaTeX.
3 - We all depend heavily on CVS for our code work.
So, about the umpty-fifth time that Something Horrible* happened to a 40-page document we're rushing to beat a deadline on, I muttered something about how much more fun things would be if we reverted to LaTeX and used CVS to do shared builds until the proposal was done.
One of the guys almost was in tears... you could see him thinking back to how EASY LaTeX was, mentally superimposing a CVS framework, and literally melting down at the Criminal Stupidity* of using Word. Everone else either agreed, or (if they didn't have a LaTeX history) muttered that "anything beats the POS* we're using..."
* Something Horrible, POS, and Criminal Stupidity are all (TM) Microsoft. This rant brought to you by Microsoft, proud maker of the Incredible Biodegradeable Access Forms, VStudio
Re:Absolutely! Plus, LaTeX is cvs-friendly (Score:3, Informative)
CVS is largely line/text oriented. There are capabilities in it to handle binary, but they're incompatible with most front-end tools (wincvs, cvsweb, jcvs are ones I've used) and they are by default turned to an 'off' position. This means that typically CVS just notes the change and keeps a copy of each revision. You can move back to an old version, but you can't diff two versions intelligibly.
I believe I've read somewhere that Subversion (t
Re:LaTex is crufty. (Score:3, Insightful)
LaTeX is already a layout language.
LaTeX doesn't need a backend to remind it it is a layout language.
Unless of course you'd like to create an application and hand that in instead of a report.
Say what? (Score:4, Informative)
I almost marked this down as trolling flamebiat, but then got bored and figured, okay, I'll bite.
This is pure uninformed drivel. TeX is an extraordinarily powerful typesetting language. Not "page processing," but complete typesetting. Think books, not webpages.
Okay, now that is a good troll. I needed the laugh, thanks!
By taking the same content, and changing the package name ("style sheet" for those whose world ends at the edge of the web browser), I get a journal article instead of a book. Or a set of overhead slides instead of a book. Or <whatever> instead of a book.
And they all still suck when compared to LaTeX.
I don't know what flavor crack you have to smoke to say that it's "reaching end of life." I haven't yet found a document-related problem that TeX/LaTeX can't solve, but I've found plenty that make HTML and whatnot just curl up in a whimpering ball. And every time I print a document using LaTeX, my colleagues look at it and say, "DAMN, now I understand why you think Word bites... this is {gorgeous,simple,amazing,powerful}..."
Parent
Re:Say what? (Score:2)
Add to that that to get a PDF (or PS) out of, say, a DocBook you are pretty much advised to use PassiveTeX.
Re:Say what? (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, speaking as a veteran LaTeX user, I think those are all fair and justified criticisms.
LaTeX is great if you have a class that's very close to your desired formatting, but if you need something new and different, designing a new class or package file to support it is horrible. The style sheet and
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Funny)
That's interesting because my colleagues allways say: hey, those letters look really ugly, you must have been using LaTeX.
I bet your coleagues think "Comic Sans MS*" is pretty darn cool if the think LaTeX looks ugly.
* Comic Sans MS is is included free with MS Office - because Microsoft Hates You (TM)
Parent
Re:LaTex is crufty. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:LaTeX even for non-mathematics (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Microsoft Word can also do the stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
If you work in the business world, and only ocassionally need to insert equations and don't care much about how they look, and you don't need to build bibliographies and use citations, then you can go ahead and use Word.
However, Word has a few serious problems that make it useless for academic scientific writing (people still use Word, but you can spot their papers a mile off as they look awful):
Parent