Rules for Teenage Internet Access?

Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"

Trust them

[r_glen (679664)]

By age 15, I'd be concerned if they weren't yet looking at porn.

As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).

Re:Trust them

[KDan (90353)]

Absolutely. Given how central the internet has become to many people's social lives, you may well find that they are exchanging messages with their sweetheart(s) and you have absolutely no business (as a parent or otherwise) being even aware of the specific existence of these messages, unless your kids want you to.

And if you're really worried about them finding bad stuff on the internet, why don't you take the slightly longer and harder route of actually educating your kids so they know why it is you would rather they didn't browse certain types of site, and let them browse them to get out the initial curiosity, and then you'll find that they won't bother because they're only interested in 'evil sites' because they're forbidden and they don't know enough about them. Forbidden + mysterious = surefire failure at what you're trying to do.

Daniel

Re:Trust them

[oneishy (669590)]

While i agree that you should be able to trust your children, I see many other things from the flip side of the coin.

It IS a parents business to know what is going on in their childs life. That is nearly THE definition of an involved parent. Todays society shrugs that model but it is the parents job to help guide those *sweetheart* relationships (or to end them if needed).

KDan aparantly believes in teaching a child to do something once just to learn what it is, even when that something is wrong. I strongly disagree, and by following that logic through hopefully you will to. Example: Murdering is wrong but i should allow my child to experience it for themselves so that they *understand* murdering. Clearly that would not be good parenting. The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..) A parent should not encourage these things simply so that a child knows, but rather should keep the absolute stand that they are wrong, and off limits.

KDan does make a good point about going the harder route and educating your children. It would be good to educate them on good morals, things of character and integrity rather than on bad symptoms that come from poor character and integrity.

Pornography is *evil*?

[autopr0n (534291)]

The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..)

Pornography is evil now? Wow, I'm right up there with Saddam Hussen. But where the hell are my 70 virgins!?

Re:Pornography is *evil*?

[Dolly_Llama (267016)]

They sure as hell arent on your website!

and Praise Bob for that!

Re:Trust them

[dbc001 (541033)]

Example: Murdering is wrong but i should allow my child to experience it for themselves so that they *understand* murdering.

That's a terrible analogy. my dad gave me a cigarette when i was like 12, and i coughed for like 15 minutes. There was no way anyone could ever talk me into smoking a cigarette after that.

I plan on drinking my kid's first beers with them, and i plan on smoking the first joint with them as well. Both are very dangerous, but also quite normal and socially acceptable in moderation. similarly, it would be wise to talk openly with children about sex and sexuality (both must be done carefully of course) because if my kid is gonna be a perv, i would rather know about it than have him hide it and end up being a murderer/rapist because of pent up sexual frustration and aggression.

So what can we learn from the wonderful world of Internet Porn? Well, it turns out that everybody likes sex! Some people like it in different ways than others. Some people went through weird shit growing up, and now they get off on weird shit as adults. Who is to say what is normal and what is abnormal? As far as the kids go - you can't stop them from seeing porn. They will find it. And they will find the weirdest, nastiest shit you can imagine, far weirder than anything we were ever exposed to growing up. So your best bet is to work on building an honest, open dialog with them, and build a trusting relationship. If ya don't, your kids will still find the weird porn, but they won't be able to relate it to society, and they won't be able to bring it into the context of real people. They will hide it and keep it all inside, and that will cause much worse problems.

Re:Trust them

[by Anonymous Coward]

you may well find that they are exchanging messages with their sweetheart(s) and you have absolutely no business (as a parent or otherwise) being even aware of the specific existence of these messages

Wrong!

Parent of 4 here, and while when I was a teenager I didn't think my parents had any business knowing anything about my private life, I've long ago learned that that view is the view of the child, not the parent.

A parent has a resposibility to be total aware of what their children are doing at all times. I don't need to know the specific CONTENT of a message, but I do need to be aware who they are chatting with, when they are doing it, and you'll better be damn sure I'll make sure that the other child's parents know it too.

We have 3 computers in my house, in public areas. If one isn't in use, any kid can jump on it, provided they've done their homework, had it checked by mom and dad, have done their chores, and haven't lost their computer priviliges for some infraction or other.

Yeah, I'm a neanderthal. I'm the worst parent in the world. My kids will be forever messed up because I make sure I know everything there is to know about their lives.

Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.

Eagle scouts?

[JKConsult (598845)]

Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.

That explains it. If they're Eagle Scouts, then they already see enough porn when the scoutmaster asks them to "stay after".

Re:Trust them

[trotski (592530)]

Trust me, since I was probably a kid more recently than you have (i'm 21, some may argue I still am a kid). Honor students, gifted musicians, and eagle scount mean nothing.

I've known them all, and honor students, giften musicians and (in Canada) Air/Army/Sea Cadets or Boy/Girl scouts get just as drunk and have just as much sex as every other teenager. You can't watch your kids all of the time, it's physically impossible, and you have to accept the fact that they WILL try drinking, they WILL have sex and chances are they will try drugs. These are just things kids do in high school, and your restrictivness and controlling attitude may actually encourage these things to happen.

It doesn't matter how nice your kids seem to you, they WILL surprise you, especially since you can't accept that they may have lives of their own.

Re:Trust them

[etymxris (121288)]

Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.

Actually, that is kind of messed up. I've never met a kid who aimed to be such a "perfect" child without being pushed or shamed by the parents.

When you teach a child to ride a bike, you eventually have to let go of the handlebars and let them go it alone. And they may crash, many times even. But that is life. Similarly, if you keep an omnipresent eye over everything your child does until they leave the house, how prepared do you think they will be to go it alone? Not at all.

The people I've met with overprotective parents inevitably went "wild" when they finally got to college. Those that didn't were somewhat "off", and had trouble interacting with the regular populace (and by "regular", I don't mean "party-goer").

As for me, my parents were practically negligent of my upbringing. I wouldn't suggest others treat their kids the same way, but I've turned out OK. When facing the challenges laid before me by life, such as whether to use drugs, whether to party rather than study, etc, I always knew I was on my own two feet. No one was there to catch me if I fell.

I never considered, "If I do this, what will my parents think?" They didn't really care one way or the other. Instead, I always thought, "What impact will this have on MY future?" Someone who's set about controlling another's life, whether with good intentions or bad, inevitably stands in an adversarial position to that person.

That person becomes your "enemy", whether it is spoken or not. Things become wanted and sought after not because of their intrinsic worth, but because in a struggle for freedom the child invariably "rebels" and strives to escape the shackles of the controlling environment. The child doesn't want drugs, or promiscious behavior, but really wants freedom.

Of course, this doesn't accurately portray every kid. There are plenty that pursue life's vices simply because they are bored or don't care, and get away with it because the parents are negligent. But you should keep in mind that your attempts to control your children are very likely to backfire later in life.

Kids want privacy, and freedom over their selves. Take those away, and they will hate you, whether they admit it or not.

Re:Trust them

[fleener (140714)]

Interesting sentiment, but if the law in my state makes me (as a parent) legally responsible for my child, you can bet your ass I'm tracking everything that happens on the computer, even if the computer is located in the living room.

Re:Trust them

[Jucius Maximus (229128)]

"And if you're really worried about them finding bad stuff on the internet, why don't you take the slightly longer and harder route of actually educating your kids so they know why it is you would rather they didn't browse certain types of site, and let them browse them to get out the initial curiosity, and then you'll find that they won't bother because they're only interested in 'evil sites' because they're forbidden and they don't know enough about them. Forbidden + mysterious = surefire failure at what you're trying to do."

Exactly right. I'm in university now but I've had a computer in my own room since I was maybe 12 or 13, although we didn't have internet access back then. My parents did a good job of impressing the right values onto me so I would be able to tell good from bad and right from wrong. Once you've got that taken care of, then you're basically coasting and it's hard for you or your kids to build up momentum in the wrong direction.

I damn well did look at pr0n out of curiosity but once the overall rush/thrill of it all gets past you, it's nothing special. Having a real girl/boyfriend is (probably*) a lot better than pr0n. I barely ever fire up the browser and get pr0n anymore because I don't have a reason to do it. And whether I like it or not I did end up having similar morals to my parents and I never, ever, did anything that was truly 'bad' related to the internet. I was never strictly supervised or watched over - it was simply good traditional parenting that set me on the right path.

Giving the kids the morals to make their own decisions is important because they have to learn how to make their own judgements and opinions. If you make all the decisions for them and control them at every turn, you'll just push them into more underground ways of doing what every teen does and probably contort their viewpoints.

So what am I trying to say? Here it is: You can and should teach them how to navigate as best you can. But only by letting them truly do it themselves will they develop conscience and maturity.

My yougest sibling has been on the internet since she was 6 or so but I know she will not get into any trouble. Our parents and I put the smarts and values into her so she doesn't act stupidly without micromanagement from others. A guiding, watchful person is necessary. Not a person who acts as a surrogate conscience and brain.

(he steps down from the pulpit)

*As a regular slashdot reader, I was obligated to add 'probably' to that sentence.

Re:Trust them

[be-fan (61476)]

Its not a matter of whether its your right. Its definately your right. But is it right? Growing up, my parents were always lax with the rules, but very firm about expectations. As a result, both me and my brother were forced to develop personal responsibility --- something that is far more important in the real world than adherence to specific rules. I think the ideal is to be extremely involved, but still give children a bit of breathing room so they feel comfortable.

Re:Trust them

[Mr. Slippery (47854)]

You have every right to be investigating every single aspect of your minor children's lives.

At age 7, yes.

If you still find the need to do so at 17, you are failing to prepare them for adulthood. (Not to mention that by the time they're a teen, you're going to find that it's not possible to continually investigate every single aspect of your kid's life.)

Re:Trust them

[Valar (167606)]

oh. so you're trying to teach them how to navigate a network undetected. :)

Re:Trust them

[orthogonal (588627)]

Yep. My house. My network. My rules. Period.

I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.

But if you control them until they're 18, when will they get the experience controlling themselves?

I think part of the point of adolescence is to allow them more self-control, so that they can gain practice in making their judgments for themselves, while you're still close enough at hand to be a safety net when they (inevitably) dare too much and make a misstep.

You probably taught your kids to ride bicycles. I doubt you "taught" them to ride by sitting them in a side-car attached to your bike until age 12, at which time you plopped them on a 10-speed without training wheels, expecting them not to fall just because they'd watched you balance, steer, and pedal for the last 12 years.

No, like any good parent, you got them a 3-speed, put training wheels on it, and ran behind the bike, holding the seat to balance it. And eventually they were pedaling too fast for you to hold one, so you watched them whiz away, waiting for that first skinned knee to bandage.

Rather than grep through the network logs, spend the time explaining to your kids why the values you live by are useful and effective values for them to live by. Talk about the mistakes you made, in hopes they'll more quickly recognize their future mistakes. Let your kids know that now is their chance to make mistakes, and now is when they still have the chance to come to their dad and ask for his help in correcting those mistakes.

Re:Trust them

[by Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with you!!!

I am only a teen-ager myself, yet my parents put forth there rules in a way that let me scrape my knees before i hit adulthood. I needed some freedom to experience things and decide if things were right or wrong for myself, not for my parents or any other influencing person in my life. This in return gave me a respect for my parents, making me want to obey there wishes of not viewing wrong material.

I speak for myself only now, I am sure that plenty of teen-agers in the world are going to get all over me for stating these things, because if some parents read this it might influence them. But I'm stating my beliefs...after all isn't that what /. is for.

Re:Trust them

[timmyf2371 (586051)]

Well, children do take after their parents.

I take it you don't mind your children turning into control freaks?

Re:Trust them

[Penguin's Advocate (126803)]

When I was younger (age 11 thru 17) and still lived with my parents, they didn't have rules about the internet. I was the one who signed us up for an internet connection with my dad's credit card at age 11 (AOL 1.0...what a mistake that turned out to be...). Prior to that I had used the internet on my grandfather's 286 clone with dos and a 1200baud modem (seperate modems for data and fax). I was the one who from age 11 to age 13 kept upgrading my parents computer and modem. I have had several computers in my room since I was 9. I built my first computer, a 486, when I was 10 in 1994. I have built every computer I, my parents, my siblings, or most of my reletives have had since then. I convinced my parents at age 14 to get (non-AOL) dsl. I bought all the network equipment. I built the router (a bunch of garbage, quite literally, running linux) that ran continuously without any downtime whatsoever from then until I left for college 4 years later and bought my parents a wireless router as a parting gift. It was me, at age 14 running cat5 all over my house. It way my parents house, and their connection, but It was MY router and MY network and MY computers that they were were using. I read the logs, I knew where everyone went. And they had no idea, nor did they really care because my parents trust me, and guess what, I'm perfectly fine. I'm 19 now. I bought a house. (it was 100 years old, I gutted and rebuilt the entire thing myself, plumbing, electric, carpentry, sheetrocking, trim, everything, in 3 months). And now I have MY house, MY connection, MY network, and MY router and MY computers, and you know what? It's no different from when I lived at home. I'm independent, I'm halfway done with a BS in computer science at Renselaer Polytechnic Institute. I'm doing great, and I'm "only" 19. And the best part? It wasn't hard at all. I think it's total bull that a "kid" at 15 shouldn't be expected to be able to deal with the real world. I think it's a crock that people must be sheltered from reality for the first 18 years of their lives. If you don't expect responsibilty from a person who is 17, or even 13 or 14, why the hell should you expect it when they turn 18? There's no magic that happens between the last day of being 17 and the first day of being 18. It's not being 18 that makes you an adult. It's responsibility that makes you an adult. There are plenty of people who are legal "adults" who are most definitely not adults. I think people need to realize that humans are not equations and that numbers don't necessarily mean a damn thing. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm bragging at all in this, but I'm no super-genius or rich-beyond-the-need-for-intelligence guy. I'm just another "kid". I wasn't the top of my class in highschool, nor the second or even third (etc), and I damn sure ain't the top of my class in college (tho I'm not far). My father's a fireman, and my mom doesn't work, and I've got 3 (not so)little bro's. I consider myself average, and from that baseline I'm shocked at how few parent's trust their children, and even more shocked at how many children seriously don't deserve their parent's trust. The things people do to their children/parents/each other piss me off to no end. Ok, I guess I could probably go on for hours, but I have projects to be working on, so I'll leave you with that and this: In my opinion one should be expected to act and be responsible for themselves as an adult at age 13. I think the only reason this isn't currently the case is that not much is currently expected from parents or children, and that is a sad, almost sickening, reality.

Re:Trust them

[Joe Tie. (567096)]

It's a tough decision. The ideal would be to raise kids who can excercise strength of will when up against a temptation that might be bad for them. I think the big difficulty comes in how to actually give them that ability. Too strong a hand and they might get that unshakeable will, but learn to apply it to any stupid thing their authority figure tells them i.e. the the terminally stupid manager syndrome. Don't enforce any rules and they might wind up spending their lives jumping from job to job because they're unable to force themselves to endure the stupid decions made by the aforementioned managers. It seems like a difficult line to walk for a parent, and makes me glad the issue is one that's not applicable for me.

Now look here

[The Tyro (247333)]

The guy made a statement about his control of the home network. You responded by personally attacking him, basically calling him a tight-assed bastard... shame on you. He makes a VERY important point... his hardware, his electricity, his rules; I happen to think he's got every right to do this.

Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.

That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.

I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.

My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.

Re:Trust them

[by Anonymous Coward]

I am thirteen years old and have been allowed to have my own computer since I was eleven. My parents figured that I was a fairly clever kid who would have figured out a way of doing the wrong thing if i so pleased. I do not look at innapropriate websites--namely pornography, as a christian it goes against everything I believe in. Additionally, my parents are more likely to figure out what I am doing when I am on a computer, at their house. I agree that, in the end, it is simply a matter of trust. Plus, having a laptop hooked up with wifi rocks!

Re:Trust them

[kfg (145172)]

I find the current trend to insist that people (and they are people, you have to remember that) under the age of majority remain children at least until crossing that arbitrary border is a bit bizarre.

As a parent I always considered it my duty to raise them to be adults. Have ever told your kid, "Act your age"? If so, didn't you mean "Act more mature"?

Well, then you have to teach them maturity, not childhood. Responsibility and self control, not outside control of their every movement. With maturity comes things you might not like. If your kids are past the age of puberty they are sexually mature, whether you are comfortable with that idea or not. They are going to act like they are sexually mature. They are also begining to think of themselves as themselves and not as your children. Help them to do so in a mature and reponsible manner.

Then you'll have to get out of the way. They'll make mistakes. Sometimes bad ones. Be there for them instead of flying off the handle. Don't think that if you just locked them up tighter the mistakes wouldn't have been made. They'll just be delayed until they're out there on their own without you to support them.

Isn't it a better idea to teach them how to deal with these issues in a mature fashion rather than try to deny that these things exist?

Then you're going to wonder why they go to college and go completely off the frickin' wall drinking, screwing and otherwise acting like children out of control.

Well, it's because you raised them to do that. You set them up for it.

The issue isn't so much how to control your kids, but how to control yourself to raise your kids as adults, not kids. Ultimately they are going to control themselves no matter what you do.

Think about it.

KFG

Re:Trust them

[reverius (471142)]

Somebody mod this up. It's the most insightful thing I've read on Slashdot... nay, the entire internet... in a very long time.

I'm a recently-on-my-own "new Adult". I'm 19, and I'm a freshman in college. My parents were of the more relaxed "he can make his own mistakes" variety, and I'm incredibly thankful for it. If you don't let them -learn- maturity, they'll never have it. Then they'll be 19 and a freshman in college... and they won't know why it's bad to drink in excess 4 or 5 days a week. Trust me, I see it all around me. Adults acting like children.

Re:Trust them

[soulsteal (104635)]

Nah, force them to view goatse.cx as punishment for rule-breaking.

How were they punished when they broke the rules?

[DAldredge (2353)]

You mention that the rules have all been broken? What happened when they broke them? Did you take the computer out of the room for a time? If not, perhaps you should in the future.

Re:How were they punished when they broke the rule

[oneishy (669590)]

To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.

With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.

As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that

Privacy Invading Software

[LordoftheFrings (570171)]

I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but as a teenage boy, let me tell you, Netnanny or any of that privacy software DOESTN't work, so don't try that. Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn.

Re:Privacy Invading Software

[dbc001 (541033)]

Dirty images and thoughts

I have a little surprise for you:
sex isn't dirty.

actually it's quite nice.
i'm not a hundred percent sure, but there's some pretty good evidence that sex is what we were designed to do. that's why normal male humans don't normally go very long without thinking about sex. i believe it's often referred to as "survival", and sex is how we do the whole "survival" thing.

for those of you who really think that sex is "dirty", you need to see a therapist, seriously. that's a very unhealthy attitude, and it could very well cause some serious problems.

lying

[wolrahnaes (632574)]

does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?

Yes.

Re:lying

[Ossifer (703813)]

Well I certainly don't read slashdot when my parents are around

Block Yahoo news

[DanThe1Man (46872)]

What ever you do, block teenagers away from yahoo news. [yahoo.com] (not safe for work)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ 03 1115/482/mjt11411150955&e=4

First.

[PFAK (524350)]

As I'm 16 years old, here's probably the rules I'll have for my kids (yes I know, I'm paranoid.. but look what I've done):

Do not let them have access to the internet. With that in mind, if you do let them have access to the internet, only allow port 80. And only let them have access to Yahoo! Kids. Do not under ANY circumstances give them access to IRC. IRC is by far the root of all evil.

If you are going to give them access to the internet, make sure to stick their computer behind 4 bridges, and a NAT. Filter everything that you could possibly do. In all cases, do NOT let them have access to the internet if at all possible.

Snoop on your kids, msgsnarf is your friend. Firewall logs and snort also help you filter out porn traffic.

In essence, do NOT trust your kids. They will break your trust, it has been proven time and time again. I do not remember the last time I listened to my Dad, uh yeah.. haha.

In his case, I just make sure his computer doesn't get infected with more then 10 viruses. Although he is actually a computer teacher, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about computers..

Don't put the computers in their rooms

[autopr0n (534291)]

Don't keep the door closed when you're on the computer? Geez, what horrible rule, especialy for the 15 year old.

If you're that freaked out, why not put all the computers in a "family computer lab"? Is it that painful for you to actually spend time in the same room as your kids?

I mean seriously, putting the TV, computer, etc in the kids room means the kid will spend all their time in their room alone, away from the rest of the family. Put all the entertainment devices in the same place, and you'll find yourselves actually spending time together. That's certainly what I plan on doing when I have kids (which should hopefully be quite a while from now :).

w.r.t your paranoia. There's a lot of fucked up stuff on the internet, and your kids will eventually see it anyway. I wouldn't want small children to see that stuff but the stileproject isn't going to turn a 15 year old into a psychopath.

But anyway, my solution still solves your problem. So do it.

Re:Don't put the computers in their rooms

[Goalie_Ca (584234)]

PORNO FOR THE PEOPLE! [autopr0n.com]

And don't let them view slashdot.

Squid is your friend

[Just Some Guy (3352)]

Install Squid and configure it for transparent web proxying. Let your kids know that it's there.

Yes, I think that they deserve a reasonable amount of privacy, but you wouldn't let them hit the town without at least knowing where they're going, would you?

and now I'm an internet ninja

[ChrisTower (122297)]

I've had a computer in my room since I was eight. Fifteen years later, I'm an out of work web developer who can type really fast and find you a copy of the Paris Hilton video in less than two minutes. Well adjusted? Perhaps not, but my tendonitis/carpal tunnel keeps me company at night and that's all that matters.

successful tactics

[HBI (604924)]

• Set reasonable rules. Ie, no online gambling, no porn, whatever it is that you want. Make sure you think that the rules are reasonable and have the willpower to enforce every single one them. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
• Keep excellent logs. Redirect everything through a proxy if you have to, but LOG EVERYTHING.
• Never watch what they are doing. It creates the wrong impression.
• Ask them what they have been doing online if you feel it significant, or they have been spending a lot of time there. Get them used to talking with you about stuff.
• Do spot checks of the logs based upon this information.
• Try to get them into a position where they have a choice whether to lie or tell the truth (and you know it). Be slick about this - don't be acting dumb.
• If they lie, let them walk away. Come back to them the next day with the fact that you know they lied. Don't get angry, but put the cold fear of God into them. Make them suffer. Jerk the network connection for the computer for a week and ground them. Tell them next time, two weeks. Time after that, forever, and keep them in the house for a nice long time. Tell them you can tolerate many things, but not lying.
• Bask in the glow of having done the best you can for your kids. They will, in general, follow your rules now.

On a personal note, i'd never try to enforce a 'no porn' rule on teenage boys. It's damn stupid. Even my mom was cool with the porn mags in my night table when I was a kid. We had a don't ask don't tell rule. She didn't clean that drawer - it was my one sanctum of privacy.

Double Standard

[thedbp (443047)]

Sir, not to disrespect, but I'm sure your wife doesn't know about EVERYTHING that you do on the internet. And if she does, something is either very wrong, or very right.

See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium, be it the library, the video shop w/ an "adult" section in back, or Pigsty, the dirty little kid who hangs out on the playground singing "milk milk lemonade..." That is to say, you'll never be able to keep it in check. It is outside of your sphere of influence.

What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not. After that, its all up to them. As it should be. Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them. To do so is a disservice to both the human spirit, and your children's ability to function and think on a level that you may not be comfortable with.

The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.

And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway. Its not like its the end of the world, and there's no need for you to cave just cuz Johnny S and Susie Q have computers in their rooms.

Anyway, its all about the trust, man. Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution. We get enough of that from The Christain God.

---

My daughters are ages 14, 12, and 8...

[ChaoticCoyote (195677)]

...and the two oldest have unfettered access to the Internet. No censorship, no restrictions, no looking over their shoulders. How can I teach them that censorship is bad if I censor them?

Since she's sitting next to me, playing Diablo 2, I asked my 14-year-old daughter about her net access.

"I find little weird web sites, I look at them," she says. "When I close the [browser] window, it's just an automatic reaction to parents in the room, a matter of privacy."

Yes, I've caught my eldest daughter reading disturbing web sites -- CNN, Christian fundamentalists, anime, Slashdot. Lord knows, she's found some very strange online comics. She asks the most damnable questions sometimes -- and that's just fine with me.

I can't teach my daughters to respect my privacy by snooping in her activities. I trust my kids. They know their parents trust them, and that they can come to us with any question; we know what they are doing, where, and with who, not because we dictate, but because our kids want us involved in their life.

Don't worry about teenagers, just little kids

[Spinality (214521)]

By the time your kids are in or approaching highschool, the groundwork has been laid. Either you have a strong, nurturing relationship, and your kids have learned to think responsibly for themselves; or they're snotty brats who distrust their overbearing and indifferent parents, who will lie to you at every opportunity, and who will bend with the winds of peer pressure. Either way, they have already been faced with every temptation you wish they didn't know about.

You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?

Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.

So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?

What is your goal here?

[autopr0n (534291)]

What exactly is your goal in doing this? To prevent them from looking at porn? To keep pedophiles from chatting up your kids? Under your rules, your kids could look at porn all they want as long as they're willing to let you know about it, in other words, you hope your children's shame in their parents knowing about their sexual predilictions should keep them in line? Or you just want your kids to be honest about their sexuality with you? Both of those seem a little weird to me.

If I were you, I'd just use some kind URL sniffer on, and check to make sure they wern't looking at anything really weird.

Simplest rules:

[Dr. Photo (640363)]

1. Any rule that you yourself don't abide by will be instantly disregarded as hypocritical the moment your back is turned. And rightly so.
2. If they haven't seen it on the Internet, they'll learn about it at school. And most likely do it after school. Make sure they know about condoms and safe sex. Practice your "Way to go, son!" speech just in case they get lucky.
3. Allow them to view any content (within reason) that they're willing to explain, and talk about. Conversely, forbid anything that they're too ashamed to bring up. Let their own moral compass pester them for you, and save yourself the trouble.
4. Make sure they realize that cutie_doll17 is actually a sweaty, overweight, 45-year-old truck driver named Jim. Don't let them meet online people in real life except in a public place when you are present. (That's a pretty standard blurb in any internet-safety pamphlet. Ironically those pamphlets have cause more paper-cut-related deaths than the number of lives they've purportedly saved. Avoid hardcopy and sharp corners.)
5. Make sure they realize that script kiddie shit has consequences. Punish them severely if they root any box with a script that they did not author themselves. This will teach them that plagiarism is wrong.
6. No dessert until all their software is patched and up to date. Ground them if they leave unnecessary services listening on open ports.

Proxy them and log their traffic

[BrianH (13460)]

Or do what I do and just TELL them that you're logging their traffic. Knowing that anything they say online can be used against them by dad does wonders to keep them honest.

And don't give me lip about not trusting my kids...I trust my kids with my life. It's the million other perverts who would lure them to the local Motel 6 that I don't trust. Children, even teenagers, need guidance and need their parents to keep an eye on them and prevent them from getting into potentially dangerous situations. In my case, I do that by occassionally snooping on their communications. Considering that I've already caught my nine year old daughter posing as a 13 year old, AND caught a local high school kid propositioning her, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that monitoring is a BAD thing.

Start the policies before they start walking...

[flogger (524072)]

I don't want to preach; but, to me, the trust issue (as mentioned earlier) is the key to raising children. Trust them and let them know you trust them. But, children will screw up and loose that trust. Let them know that the trust is gone and let them know what it will take to get that trust back. And LET THEM EARN THE TRUST BACK. I have seen many parents that "give up" when a child becomes untrustworthy. When that happens, the child doesn't have anything to strive for in his/her parental relationship. Is this "Trust See-Saw" easy to handle? No, of course not.

Let me get back to the topic: Start young with teaching children what is appropriate and inappropriate. (For the parents with teens, it may not be too late to start, but it will be tough if you have to convince you child that certain clothes he/she has been wearing for two years are now inappropriate.) Is it easy to discuss this with children? It shouldn;t be hard.

Let me use a personal example: My son, at the time was age 9, went to spend the night at a friends house. While there they watched an austin powers movie. This came out in conversation a couple of days later. My wife and I were horrified that this happened, but we didn;t yell and hoot and holler. We asked about the movie and he told us about it (We had seen this movie a couple of years before at a friends house (Strange how things work out)) During this conversation we talked about attitudes toward women and sexuality. And we talked about whe we found certain things objectionable. But it wasn't a lecture. we were having a conversation and he understood why it was inapproriate when we had finished.

You may say, "Bah, kids can't handle that kind of talk." Well, you'd be suprised. It you are honest and open with your children in ALL areas, they will learn and respond in this type of conversational enviornment. A few months ago, My son was at an overnight with a few friends and a movie was going to be shown. He asked what it was rated and got a couple of friends to go into another room and play cards (or a board game, I can;t remember. He's in bed now, or I would ask him). But I think that takes some maturity. Maturity that comes from learning how to think along the lines of what is appropriate and what is not.

How does one get to a point where we can trust the kids to make good choices? As parents we should make good choices ourselves and explain these to the kids. Dinner is a great time for these discussions. And whenver something comes up, don;t hide it from the kids. Let them in one what is happeneing. Another example: A student from where I teach was kicked out of his house. We let him stay with use for a bit while things got straightened out. My children were, of course very curious about what was going on, and we told them about the neglect, abuse, and everything going on. My children were very welcoming and treated this person as a brother fot the time he was here. Since then, my son has volunteered his time at some charities in the area for other "transients."

Again, bak to the topic: In the manner of the internet, as with all areas, be open and honest. When you are deleting spam from your email, there is a great learning experience for the kids. "Look at this junk. Enlarge your breasts..." and get into a discussion about the previlence of sexual attitudes in society. It works, kids listen, and they will understand. Yesterday, When I was playing my father-in-law on some online chess and my kids were helping out, I got an offer across AIM (Through trillian) to check out some girls webcam. (Yea right.) Well what a great learning experience about the inappropriateness of the internet. We even went to the link, and sure enough, it was filtered out.
which leads me to...
Don;t let children surf without proper filtering. All of our computers run through an E-Smith server [e-smith.org] (modified red-hat small office gateway and server) which runs an excellent free SquidGuard filter. This doesn't mean that you don;t t

Wake up!

[painehope (580569)]

Firstly, a meta-answer to your meta-question :
No. I mean, not too often. Well, sometimes. Okay, fine, I'm not really 6'4", fabulously wealthy, and have a 9 inch cock. Under my red mini-skirt. Which I wear when I pick up hot 18-year old sluts who will do anything for money!

Now that I've gotten my smart-assedness out of my system, I think it's time you looked at the basics of human development.

Kids grow. In doing so, they will expect their own privacy and freedom. With that goes responsibility. Would you let your 11 year old go to a party unsupervised? Probably not. Would you let your 15 year old? Well, judging from your attitude, probably not. I would. As long as your kids are getting good grades and have their shit pretty much together, let them do their own thing. If they want money from you, make them mow the yard. If they want a ride, tell them to clean up their room first. If they choose to walk rather than that, don't bitch at them. It's their choice. You need to slowly relax the reins, so that when they are 18 and go off to college, they have the skills and maturity to adjust, rather than just going "Woo-hoo! I don't have to listen to anyone anymore! I'm gonna fuckin' party". That's a big part of the problem. If you think your kids aren't interested in sex, intoxicants ( drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever ), bands, parties, etc., you're wrong. Weren't you? It's a matter of degrees, and knowing what is healthy.

And doesn't it strike you as odd that your child feel the need to lie to you? My personal experience has been that it's easier to tell the truth, so I don't waste time lying unless it's worth it. Ex. : if you could just tell a cop : "Look I busted my headlight last week, but I haven't had time to replace it" and he just gave you a warning, would you feel the need to to tell him you hadn't noticed it, someone must have hit your car in the parking lot? I wouldn't bother if I could, but is telling the truth worth the hassle of going to court and paying a fine? Not in my books, because whether the cop believes my lie or not, noone is hurt ( except for maybe the county, who is deprived of a $150 that they could waste as well as my tax dollars are ).

A computer is a tool. Internet access is a problematic tool, because it's a gateway to so much. What are you really worried about? Kids looking at porn? What, and you never looked at porn? Never masturbated? If you say no, you're full of shit. Being exposed to violence/hateful themes, etc? That's around kids every day. Same for drugs. So, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that kids are exposed to on the internet that isn't around regularly, are sexual predators. And those are there in the real world too. Basically, the only thing I would be worried about are the people that they might interact with online. But if you haven't explained to them that are people in the world that would like to hurt them, and that they need to be careful in who they trust, then they're not equipped to walk down to the cornerstore, let alone do anything else.
So the same basics that apply to the real world apply online. And please don't rob your children of a chance to mature in a healthy, human, responsible manner. If you're going to worry about anything, get on them about their grades, try to interest them in science, art, nature, etc.
If they want to look at pictures of naked chicks, or read about guns, drugs, whatever, don't sweat it. ( hell, the eleven year old is probably just looking up pictures of guy/girl he/she thinks is cute/smart/cool/whatever and doesn't want dad to know because he/she's embarrassed ). In my opinion, expose children to the world, let them read, talk to them, and most of all : tell and show them what you think, and then let them make up their own minds.

Age apropriate rules are the key

[autopr0n (534291)]

For a 15 year old, I wouldn't really be worried. The only real risk would be pervs chatting them up (especially if they were a girl) But even there I'd probably stop worrying around 13 or 14 or so.

Teach your kids that "don't talk to strangers" applies online as well. (Oh, and be sure to tell them what a stranger is. When I was a child I met a girl who though "Stranger" was simply a synonym "pedophile". I told her it meant anyone she didn't know and she didn't believe me).

Definitely tell them not to ever give out their email address, or download software (probably don't want to give them admin access, unless they are a geek, in which case you should give them a Linux machine :))

But you have to be age appropriate as well. Something like the stileproject could seriously warp a little kid. Or at least it seems like it could, I'm not a psychologist.

Re:Internet access

[cybermace5 (446439)]

Good point, everyone claims "Well trying to shelter the kids is pointless, they will find out about it sooner or later and then all you have done it make it more desirable by forbidding it."

The Internet is new; most parents today, as children, did not have the level of access to such material in the home that we do now. As the poster above says, would you let your kids walk around just anywhere in your town? Think of the seediest, run-down strip in your town, yet with no age limits at the bars and video stores. Approximately half of the internet looks like that.

There's a good reason that, before the internet, you had to be a certain age before getting access to this kind of material. It's not to shelter the children, it's to prevent exposure to this kind of material until they are old enough to make mature judgements and decisions. Before learning what the dirty underbelly of the world looks like, they should at least learn respect for others and not to treat women as objects. Children absorb and form ideas very quickly, while adults have a sort of filter of past judgement and experience where they can decide to take something to heart or forget it.

Re:Childs Internet Access

[Lord_Dweomer (648696)]

Why do you feel you need to shame your child into not learning about something that is completely natural? Why do you feel you need to use a weapon against your kid?

Guess what, no matter how much you know about computers, your kid will be able to see it if he wants to, he just has to go to a library or a friends house. Do you WANT your kid to grow up socially handicapped? I mean, for gods sake, what is the problem with a 16 year old looking at porn? He's gotta have SOMETHING to masturbate to. Unless that is something you feel you need to shame him into not doing either.

Re:Childs Internet Access

[krumms (613921)]

Big Brother, is that you? :P

Nothing will stop a 16 year old from viewing porn like having to face dad for an open and frank discussion that starts out as "so son, notice you've been looking at a lot of sex pages..Do you think all women are like that?? I noticed you were spending most of your time on pages where the women were doing X. Why is that ?? "

If you can't trust your 16 year old son (who is probably already well aware of things like "X") to make up his own mind about that kind of shit, and instead willfully associate fear and/or shame with sex ... well, uh ... shame on you. Assuming he's not tracking down pictures of naked eight year olds, I'd bet he's pretty safe.

Perhaps you should be more worried about things that are important -- hard drugs for example -- instead of pulling a headfuck on your child with regard to something that is pretty common and healthy in adult (and - god forbid - teenage) life. But then, this is slashdot. No Sex Here.

Do you really distrust your own kids that much?