Switching from Another Industry to Engineering/CS? 886
WomensHealth asks: "I am a physician, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to medicine, what I've always loved is computers and technology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could computer industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Computer Science field? MIT's OpenCourseWare seems well put-together, though one can't get a degree using it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?"
Sure shot... (Score:5, Funny)
I'd recommend this... [cheapindiaflights.com]
Re:Sure shot... (Score:5, Interesting)
How bad is being a physician? I'd think you're probably making more than the average starting salary for programmers (keep in mind most of the people I know aren't even getting the average).
Cheap shot but ... (Score:4, Funny)
That's especially sad since here at Lake Woebegone, all the children are above average.
Props to a prarie home companion and comments (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cheap shot but ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, that's actually possible (almost). Now if all of the children are above the median, that'd be impressive.
Re:Sure shot... (Score:4, Funny)
D
Re:Sure shot... (Score:5, Informative)
Work for the federal government. The pay may not be as sexy as private industry was during the dot com boom, but I've had a steady job for 6 years now since I got out of college, good raises every year, flexible hours, relaxed work environment, etc. I can guarentee you the government isn't going to outsource it's IT to India. ;-)
Re:Sure shot... (Score:5, Interesting)
> com boom, but I've had a steady job for 6 years now since I got out of college, good raises every
> year, flexible hours, relaxed work environment, etc.
I dunno about you, but civil service (Federal, State, County, etc..) jobs appear sexy as hell to me. I'd have a major orgasm of some sort or another if I could get one.
In my three man clique, I do -- by far -- the most technical, most advanced, most time consuming work, and I have to spend much of my personal time learning more about job related stuff (for example, I'm always lurking on the Yahoo Groups Qt programmers list, and I spend tons of my own time working out how to get ezmlm (just got it perfect this week!) and jabber (damned jabberd2 keeps crapping out with an "sm died" message; I'll have to recompile everything with debugging enabled)), but I also recieve -- by far -- the lowest salary, with Peter the File Clerk showing off as runner up for lowest salary at a pay rate 16% above mine, and that's before you count that my commute is a thousand dollars per year more expensive than his (or anyone else's that I know).
Anthony the network admin, whose job is similar to mine minus the programming, remote administration of out-of-state machine, server maintenance, manual EDI translation and heavy data entry, happens to work for the Federal government. Specifically, he lives it large for the FAA, earning well over twice my own salary. I can't complain, because he's one of the nicest guys in the universe. But I am a bit envious, especially since I have no talent whatsoever in the "job getting" department, and he had a conveniently placed family member who could help him out a bit with the position.
Er. Anyway, government labour is the great equalizer. In financially great times, the pay is substandard but reliable. In financially average times, the pay is standard and reliable. In times like today, the pay is amaing and reliable. After a year of work, the job of LAN Technician in my local county would pay two and a half the salary that I'm getting now, and that's with work that seems extremely low key to me.
Private sector work sucks. I want out!
Sorry for the rant. I had meant to actually say something insightful. Oh well....
--
-JC
coder
http://www.jc-news.com/parse.cgi?coding/main
Re:Sure shot... (Score:3, Interesting)
My job security is excellent and that's almost the best thing about it. It gets beat out by my retirement plan. Here we get a set amount deducted from our paycheck every month which my county matches at 220%. Basically when I walk out the door here in another 19 years I'll get a
Re:Sure shot... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sure shot... (Score:3)
Just because I don't live in fear of losing my job does not mean I don't work.
If that's not where y
Hospital IT staff (Score:4, Informative)
Knock on wood, but we're not outsourcing. Too many bad experiences.
Do you want to continue on in the medical industry? There are PLENTY of opportinities there. If you are affiliated with a local hospital, see about getting on one of the technology commities. They're usually the IT staff who work with Doctors/Nurses/etc to get technology into their hands. Then gradually make your move into IS. No degree necessary.
I cant speak for where you live, but there are tons of opportunities for the medical community folks to work in IT here.
Re:Sure shot... (Score:5, Insightful)
He isn't some college sophmore with nothing to his name. If he goes into a CS program, he doesn't get his MD revoked and he will probably start in a Master's program at least. Being a physician and in a tech will put him far above almost everybody else here on slashdot. This biocomputing or whatever with the supercomputers to solve biology problems, is one of the best fields to be in.
Re:Sure shot... (Score:4, Informative)
This is very, very different than bioinformatics or computational biology, both of which might use "supercomputers to solve biology problems".
Actually, there is talk that medical informatics and bioinformatics might be coming together. There is a relatively young field called pharmacogenomics, which is the study of how each individual's distinct genetic makeup affects how the drugs we take work.
Here is a PubMed link to an article about the potential for collaboration between bioinformatics and medical informatics [nih.gov]. The abstract is free on PubMed, but unless you have access to a subscription to the Journal of the American Medical Informatics Association, the article will cost you $5.
With a little luck, and a few courses, I suspect that an MD might be able to get into this field without getting a CS degree. However, I am not all that familiar with hiring practices in the field (I'm more on the bioinformatics side), so it would be best to find someone in medical informatics to ask.
A particularly hot area right now (no guarantee it'll stay this way) is the management of clinical trial data. I get a lot of recruiters contacting me looking for people with this sort of expertise.
Re:Sure shot... (Score:5, Funny)
Cha-ching!
Medicine + Electrical Engineering = Prosthetics (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Medicine + Electrical Engineering = Prosthetics (Score:4, Funny)
More wars = More lost limbs = more demand for prosthetics = Profit!
Re:Medicine + Electrical Engineering = Prosthetics (Score:4, Interesting)
If I where in your place I would find some job at a company working somewhere in medicine. Maybe Hospital Information systems or (if you like hardware) NMR machines or so. There is enough IT in medicine nowadays to find a suitable job.
Don't go for a programmers job (you are probably to old for that anyway), but go for Information Analysis, Customer Support or something else that brings you in contact with medical people. That will give you a good entry into the the IT field and a good chance to find a job.
If you want something more technical go for the above mentioned job anyway. Then after some time make a switch inside the company to another kind of job.
As for skills: a bit of programming knowledge is always welcome. But for your job it would be better to have some course in information analysis. A more general business course might help too.
Good luck!
Re:Medicine + Electrical Engineering = Prosthetics (Score:3, Insightful)
That's totally bullshit. Some experience in a given field (in this case, medicine) FAR outweighs being sprightly. The "new technology" is never really THAT new, it's always some 1970s technology rehashed yet again. Personally, I'm one of those sprightly young programmers, but I wish my lab had
Re:Medicine + Electrical Engineering = Prosthetics (Score:4, Insightful)
As an old fart in my late 30s-early 40s I have watched young 18-year-old or 20-year-old hotshots from MIT come do a year or two of internship, or newly graduated 23-year-olds fresh from the compsci mills, and they are a marvel to behold; they talk fast, think fast, and type fast. However, they also make a big mess because they haven't learned how to be engineers yet, only coder/hackers. They are disorganized, they make huge mistakes in their designs, can't document for shit, they go down blind alleys... all the mistakes we also made as neophytes. Don't get me wrong--we love these young tykes and we know that when they're 35 they'll be awesome, but right now most of them can't program their way out of a paper bag. At the better companies, the management knows this as well. By contrast, I've noticed that older beginners tend to be more patient and humble and tend to "grow up" in the field a lot faster.
Regarding your contention that someone can be too old for anything, I would say that can't possibly be true. There are millions of people every year who discover their true calling and proceed to change careers in mid-life. This is what makes the U.S. such a great country; it's not the crooked politicians, the rigged elections, the oligarchical corporations, malls, racism, the self-centered lawsuit-happy masses, etc. It's the freedom and opportunity to go back to school and reinvent yourself, something which is next to impossible in most other places.
Ironically, I just had an interview today for a hospital volunteer position; I'm thinking of switching from software engineering into the healthcare field, maybe even medical school. The interviewer is a person who was once in theatre, now in hospital work, and is studying to become an ordained minister. Needless to say I got a very sympathetic hearing on my career aspirations.
One thing I've learned through all this is to never tell someone they can't achieve something. There are enough obstacles in the road so why create imaginary ones? If the O.P. wants to go into computers, more power to'em. Heck, if nothing else, they can moonlight in an E.R. once a month to pay the bills and still do what they love.
Exactly, find a Niche. (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sure there are plenty of companies out there that would love to have a CS person that has a strong background in medicine. You would probably have valuable insight that a normal CS person wouldn't have because of your experiences.
I have a Doctor friend and one thing i've noticed is that they have alot of contacts in the pharmaceutical industry. I would think that some of these companies are developing software for your industry and would be looking for someone with your experience.
Biology/Med + Computer Science = Bioinformatics (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sure shot... (Score:3, Insightful)
I
Move to India (Score:4, Funny)
2) Move to India
3) ??
4) Profit!
Irritating poster - stop it (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Irritating poster - stop it (Score:3, Funny)
Imagine, if you
Re:Irritating poster - stop it (Score:3, Insightful)
What's also funny to notice is that it's usually the still pretty "novice" users (like uid 400000+) who label them as "inside jokes" and still laugh about them. To *you* perhaps, it's an inside joke, because that's how *you* got to know slashdot. That's how *you* got, at least in your he
Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm thinking about going into the pure sciences, like astrophysics. With this push to go back to the Moon and to Mars, I think the space program will be revived -- whether it be NASA or the private sector. We need young people with advanced degrees in space-related fields. I see computer science being a part of this, but dwarfed by engineering, physics, and chemistry. Nuclear chemistry is another good field, and still plenty geeky.
Re:Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here (Score:3, Interesting)
This is an interesting take on the future.
The bad point: China will be going after space in a big way, a potential impediment to making any money if space goes the commercial route because you won't be cost effective to any multinationals.
The good point: China will be going after space in a big way, a potential gold mine if the US Government decides there is no way it can afford to let China become too competitive commercially and (especially) militarily in space.
Could be interesting.
Re:Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here (Score:3, Insightful)
I certainly hope this comes true but I'd rate it as something of a long shot especially if your risking so much of your future on it.
Its somewhat more likely that NASA will start to wind down the shuttle and the space station to free funds for Bush's bold new initiative so both of these old programs die. No serious money will be invested in Bush's new space initiative in the mean time. What money there is will
Re:Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here (Score:3, Interesting)
I wish it were not true, but weapons/defense industry research related to anti-terror and advanced defense technology is once again a promising area. One that is VERY unlikely to be offshored.
That is the one thing that might keep me from changing into a different part of the compsci industry. I currently work in a DOD job where because of security requirements, most Americans cannot work here, let alone Indians. I'm unhappy for other reasons, but job security is not one of them. It's the one thing I hav
Re:Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here (Score:4, Informative)
er, wtf is nuclear chemistry?
The study of nuclear reactions, where you take an atom and smash it to pieces. Nuclear chemistry gave us the ability harness nuclear fission and fusion, both for power plants and weapons (although fusion power plants are a bit tricky and only used over short time periods for research, and even then only rarely).
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Please, stick with your current occupation. You're saving lives there, and I doubt you could say the same in an IT field.
Re:Well... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
This business is harsh. I don't know what medicine is like but the IT industry is not pleasent anymore. It was at one time when the field was filled with brilliant innovators but now it's just shit.
Finally any doctor I know drives a nicer car, has a better house and a better looking wife then any computer professional I know.
Don't do it, you'll regret it later.
Re:Don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't do it. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you think that having a CS degree will vault you to the top of an unrelated career field, you are kidding yourself. If you want to use it as a way to enhance another career that you are trained for, then perhaps (bio-informatics, patent law with a specialization in software), but those require a significant investment in education in another field...
Re:Don't do it. (Score:3, Informative)
Like what? If you are interested in doing R&D work then there is more opportunity in medicine that com sci. It also pays better and does not require overtime. Not only that but you could actually be doing things to save people from death and suffering.
In this field there are basically few options. You become a network guy who gets beeped at
Re:Don't do it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't mean to nitpick, but he is proposing acquiring a degree in Engineering/CS, not IT. CS is more than managing computer systems and even programming. At least I hope so, for I'm studying it with no intention of becoming a "programmer."
That was one of those posts that fits the mould of an insightful comment, except it isn't really. Oh I see... you're young and idealistic and studying CS in school. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.
-a
Re:Well... Socialized Medicine (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, your experience is anecdotal and deosn't give you enough information to judge accurately. Yale-New Haven is hardly a representative benchmark of all US emergency rooms. Here in Los Angeles, we have County-USC: you'll wa
The easiest way (Score:5, Insightful)
Forget about making money in the industry, you're much better off getting a degree in plumbing, the pay is better and the hours are better.
Re:The easiest way (Score:2)
Don't (Score:5, Insightful)
It was once a good field to be in, but has now become so devalued that I cannot recommend it.
Re:Don't (Score:4, Interesting)
I know a couple of people who were one their way to careers in medicine (got accepted to med school etc.) who thought better of it. One became an engineer and the other a techie. Both are probably a lot happier than they would have been as doctors, even if they are also a lot poorer. Remember, some people do this because they like it.
And by the time he switches careers he might be at the point where taking a cut in salary won't be the end of the world. One day when the kids are gone and my 401k is in better shape I would like to spend some time exploring new fields as well.
Re:Don't (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't know what you're talking about. The existance of free software has expanded the industry. I'm in the consulting field, and I am freqently setting up small linux machines to do small, miscellaneous and other complicated, highly customized projects for my clients. These projects wouldn't have been possible without free software. It would have either been too expensive or simply impossible because of the closed nature of the software.
Graduate Program (Score:5, Insightful)
Go ahead and do it!! Instead of doing something like certification courses (CCNA, MSCE, etc.) that might or might not be accepted, try and get into a MS degree program somewhere. And to do something like this is definitely possible... from where I worked at a couple of years ago, I had one person in my group who went from being a heart surgeon to a software engineer and someone else who went from a city cop to a chip designer. Sure, its not easy but at the end of the day, you will have what counts.
Save yourself! (Score:5, Insightful)
my $.02
ummm... wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
A software sales critter essentially sells ideas and unmeasurable claims. A product which not only does not exist, but also has not been designed!
They promise the V8, 4 wheel drive, A/C, automatic transmission etc. for $20000 and deliver a POS (such as a Yugo as an example of a small cheaply built car) for $40000, and defective to boot. In real estate you can go out and look at the lot, the nieghborhood and the building plan and decide if that is what you want.
The ephemeral nature of software means that any charlatan or con artist can have a field day. And then charge outragous sums for bug fixes called upgrades. Which is one reason I am getting out, I no longer want to be associated with such practices, which are accepted as the norm.
Not all capitalism is immoral and/or unethical, just as not all socialists are lazy. It is just that IT is the worst I have found to date, and I see no good way to improve the situation.
anything offsite can be offshored (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no business difference between someone who telecommutes from India or Indiana.
-1 Troll (Score:5, Funny)
Re:-1 Troll (Score:5, Funny)
Switch to politics (Score:2, Interesting)
Let's get real. Why should companies like IBM and HP be allowed to bid on government contracts when they have a large number of their workforce in IT sweatshops overseas?
Insulting question (Score:5, Funny)
How would you feel if you got the following question from a patient?
I am a computer scientist, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to computers, what I've always loved is anatomy and biology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could medical industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Medical field? I'd like to start operating on people right away; Gray's Anatomy seems like a good guide, though I apparently can't get a license by reading it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
Re:Insulting question (Score:5, Insightful)
How would you feel if you got the following question from a patient?
[pretentious diatribe deleted]
Unfortunately, the analogy is false. IT doesn't kill or save enough people, so there's no rigorous screening process for people entering the field. There is no 7-8 years of proving ground and education before being released upon the masses.
The fact is that kids out of HS and smart people all around the world are picking up IT like loose change.
Here's some real advice for the original poster: Some of the hottest IT jobs right now are probably...tada, health-related industries. Look around what you do RIGHT NOW and look at what things could be done better and more efficiently using computers. Develop some software to do so and you can make a mint. Hundreds of successful startups do just that--recognize an inefficiency in the medical system and fill a specific niche. If you want to break into the industry, no need to learn all the coding yourself--just find some smart coders, show them the inefficiency and give them some ideas how to fix it, spread around a little seed money and voila, you're a mogul.
Re:Insulting question (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that licensing is not currently required is another story... for some jobs, I think it should be. But regardless of what the licensing situation is, it is unrealistic, and frankly insulting, to expect a shortcut into become serious and good at something.
"Kids out of HS", as you say, pick up IT like loose change. What does that mean, that they can write a VB app and put together a network? Would you trust such a kid out of HS to write software that runs the autopilot on a 747, or the heart monitor in your hospital, or for that matter the firmware of your cell phone?
Re:Insulting question (Score:5, Insightful)
'IT' has as much to do with Computer Science/Engineering as the guy who changes the oil in your car has to do with Automotive Engineering.
It finally 'got to me' this far down in reading the comments. Sorry about that.
Re:Insulting question (Score:5, Insightful)
I would feel honored, not insulted. Same as I feel about someone asking about entering the computer industry. Curiousity is nothing to be offended by. Just because they have little or no experience doesn't mean they have little or no appreciation and respect for what you do.
As for the question, my recommendations are: 1) Have plenty of reserve cash. I hope the industry is better in 5 or 10 years, but even if it is you'll need money while you train and take those entry level jobs. 2) Experience is better than certifications. You often need the latter before anyone will let you get the former, but if anyone offers you ANY job remotely related to the field you're interested in, take it. On the job experience builds your skills and your contacts. 3) Combine your interests. The things that stand out most on your resume are not your certifications or even your IT experience (though both are often required), but the other interesting things about you. For instance, I entered IT from a background as a high school teacher. Know what? Most employers find that background tremendously valuable and look to me as a trainer.
Best of luck to you!
-madgeorge
Hate to tell you... (Score:3, Interesting)
Guess what? She tinkered with her knowledge, became a midwife, explored a lot of different areas where she could legally do what she was interested in doing. Sounds an awful lot like non-degree compsci people, no?
The normal path isn't required to become a doctor
I can't say it's the wisest move (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course the flip side is that if all medicine gets under govermental control you may be in a much less lucrative job than you are right now. I think that if you're serious you should look at the programming/CS degree while you're practicing medicine and then apply both specialties by developing applications for the medical field. It's specialty work like that, where it takes somebody with inside knowledge to really know what is going on with the end result and not just the programming, that will be more difficult to outsource. Also the potential for true innovation from somebody within the medical field attacking programming is enough that you might secure yourself a position with a large company.
It would be a gamble any way you look at it. If you're really into it then find an online part-time CS program and enroll. Take a few classes over the course of many years. It will take you much longer to get the degree due to the changing nature of CS degree requirements, BUT... you'll know better by the end if you really want to leave medicine AND you'll still have the knowledge to grow from later.
CharlesP
If you're really serious about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
The one advantage that you do have is in-depth knowledge about a potentially lucrative customer niche: medicine. Consider leveraging that to specify, maybe even design software and systems to help medical people.
You might be able to code up some demos and do some usability testing, but (IMHO) you ought to resist the tempation to try to implement production systems. Quality is important, and experienced developers automatically deal with issues that you wouldn't even think of for years to come. Hire quality people and let them make you rich!
Medical informatics (Score:3, Interesting)
Options (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems plenty of other slashdotters have beat me to the "Move to India" suggestion.
But realistically, the best way to get into the computer/tech industry is to get into one of the high profit vertical markets. Great examples of these are Enterprise Storage (IBM, EMC, HP, Sun, Hitachi), Supercomputing (HP, IBM, SGI), maybe even VOIP or biometric security. Additionally, consulting services which are wrapped around the aforementioned markets are particularly lucrative.
You basically want to avoid like the plague any job which can be easily outsourced to India or another cheap labor market. Programmers, Call center workers, WWW operations are a few examples.
Also, dime-a-dozen certifications like MCSE and MCP should be avoided as they are usually costly for you to get (if you are paying for them yourself) but provide little or no real world benefit to you.
Just my two cents.
No sweat for you. (Score:5, Informative)
There are tons and tons of existing resources available both in print and online that you can use to learn the stuff you need. An MD is already a terminal degree; unless you are looking for academic/faculty computer science positions, it is not entirely necessary to have to go to school for IT at this time.
As far as the market is concerned, there is always interest in people who possess both a human-oriented and computer-oriented skillset; especially for places that are full of one-kind-but-not-the-other. (Like in a setting where everyone is a physician but they don't know IT, or a group of IT people who want someone who understands the biomed field).
Two words: Medical Informatics (Score:3, Informative)
Six Step program (Score:5, Funny)
"Woman's Health?" (Score:3, Interesting)
Likely he's an ob/gyn (or possibly just weird), but it's still funny...
The dissenting opinion (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, as a physician, you've got some specialized knowledge that will come in handy from time to time. I'm sure you've heard plenty about biotech. I've seen some of these DNA "computers" and chips, and it seems very wasteful. Grow specimen, extract and treat dna, splash on a grid with transverse dna's and call it a computation. Then record the data and throw it away. This is just one example of the biotech oddities that seperate the field from your average HTTP server. There's all sorts of places to work. Merck, Eli Lilly, etc. Having a MD with some working knowledge of computer programming will get you further than having a degree in computer programming and a working knowledge of human physiology.
Your best bet is to start writing programs for yourself, and maybe design a few gui tools to put on top of them. Basically build a working portfolio that demonstrates you can write in perl, SQL or whatever, then apply. Or maybe you will find that a few of your own programs are marketable to your friends. I hear many doctors enjoy PDAs and related software. If your a general practicioner, you might try thinking about what sort of software would make your practice faster, more reliable or more cost effective. By all means, read up on HIPAA and the sorts of laws regulating how software should treat patient data. Maybe buy a pda and a wireless reciever and learn how to interface software from the pda to a database over the wireless in a safe, secure manner.
Learning to program is not that difficult. Some languages make it more obscure than others, and some languages are built for more specific domains than others, but here at KSU we only really have three "how to program" type classes of varying difficulty before you begin to learn how to specify WHAT you should program, be it a database, an operating system or a 3d renderer.
skip IT. (Score:4, Funny)
Have a look. [snowtavle.com]
Combine your talents (Score:4, Insightful)
2. ?? (*see below)
3. Profit!
*In your profession, you probably can find a need that because you've worked in the trenches you can fill better then any programmer could. Programming is not something you can learn overnight, but is more like a talent, like playing the piano. Figure out the niche that you can fill, and make a program to handle it. Make it open source (GPL) and start using it. Talk it up among your doctor friends and see if they are interested. Others may join in, and start asking for changes that you haven't anticipated. At this point you can start charging for enhancements. Since you are the expert in this program you are the one contacted. Get some rightups in medical journels and you are on your programming way.
Offshoring is overrated (Score:4, Insightful)
I know I'm going to make some enemies with this post, but I seriously urge you all, who think that it's bad that jobs are going to India, to consider the benefits of offshoring IT jobs.
By having cheaper labor do the same work and produce equally good or better products and services is a good thing. Remember your college economics class? Comparative Advantange? It's important for a nation's economy to do what it does best. Just as the poster asked whether or not she should get into the computer science field, I would say, if you like it and you think you will be better at it than medicine, then by all means, go for it.
By having people do what they do best, it allows for specializiation and the way corporations work the way they do today. Specialization allows more output from the same input by increasing the productivity of workers. Similarly, specialization applies to the global level and when nations specialize in one service or good, that is better for the entire global economy. Just think back to the 70s and 80s when the auto industry was screaming bloody murder over the import of cheaper and better made Japanese cars. Americans learned to respond to that. Similarly, the currently shrinking job market in the IT field is not something to be afraid of. There are plenty of problems that require solving in the technological sciences involving computers that currently displaced employees can help solve and this is an overall benefit to global society. Yes, there will be a short-run hard hit to people at home, but allowing free trade is a good thing. And in this case, it's the free trade of jobs in the computer industry. But remember, in the long run, it's in the best interest of everyone.
Re:Offshoring is overrated -- problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not just hire a flock of interns in the US? It'd be just as good, and the accent wouldn't be there.
Become a craftsman... (Score:5, Informative)
The market is currently quite rough, especially to break into. After being laid off when a product tanked on the market, I've gone a few months without having a single resume responded to - and I have almost a decade of professional programming experience that was applicable to the jobs I've applied for (and my resume used to keep the phones ringing daily for months when I posted it - the market has changed a bit).
I've been spending the extra time continuing development on my personal code library and projects [codevis.com], writing open source code [codevis.com], and working on a few products [evenlouder.com] that I expect there to be a market for when they're done. That's how I'd suggest breaking into the field as well.
You have a very special situation though - you know, or can find out if you think about it and ask your colleagues, exactly what one fairly wealthy niche market needs. What software would help you - as a doctor - work more efficiently? What software have you and your colleagues found lacking? There's your first project :)
It won't be easy, and you won't make money fast. My recommendation would be to start learning about computers and computer programming now while thinking about products. As soon as you feel like you can design a useful program and have one in mind - take a shot at it.
Use CVS [cvshome.org] ( or for Windows, WinCVS [wincvs.org] ) or some other revision control so you can keep track of all the code you write (I wish I had when I started!). Estimate for yourself how long tasks should take - track those estimates, and figure out why they were right or wrong. Document everything, especially the code.
Once you have a product you think is worthy for your target audience - use it yourself in your work. Then let some colleagues try it out. Fix anything you find wrong with it, and ask your colleagues for suggestions.
Then, set up a website, advertise it, and try to sell it - or set up a project on SourceForge [sourceforge.net] and make it open source [osi.org] - whichever you feel more comfortable with. On SourceForge, you'll be able to enlist the help of other more experienced programmers and together tailor the product towards excellence. If you sell it and it's successful, you'll be able to afford to switch careers to full-time programmer/entreprenuer and just work on your business.
That brings me to another point - if you aren't currently running your own doctor's office, start learning business skills too. They're just as hard to pick up as programming skills - possibly harder for some. Figure out what you'll need to do to start running your own software company. Even if you decide to write your own software as open source and become an employee for someone else professionally, this will help you at the negotiating table.
What I would NOT recommend is dropping out of medicine, getting a BS in computer science, and expect doors to be immediately open when you g
Combine your interests (Score:3, Interesting)
Radiology is perhaps the most obvious field where computers let docs see and do things that they never could before. I'd guess it's also probably the field where you'll find other docs with an interest in computers. You might do well to hang around with some of those folks and see where things are heading, and how they got started. But there are plenty of other fields as well... microbiology, chemistry, pharmacology, hospital IT systems, medical imaging, etc.
If you decide that a degree will really help you, then when the time comes you might consider taking a sabbatical from medicine and pursuing that degree full time. Or perhaps you'd do well to find a position at a university hospital where you could study CS as an employment perq.
Medical Imaging (Score:3, Interesting)
If you were to pick up the programming skills (you could get into image registration, segmentation, computer-aided diagnois, etc...) or the EE skills (you could work on the detectors for digital x-ray systems or CT front-end design) you could apply them to imaging diseases of which you already have a fundamental knowledge. This is very powerful and missing in a lot of the research I've seen.
One last word of warning: I would think one reason you got you MD was to help people...I've personally found that a huge portion of the high-tech industry is just out to make money, regardless of the effects it has on it's workers, the environment or the betterment of society. This is why I'm getting out.
some advice from an auto-didactic programmer (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually I saw a program at Dartmouth for a dual MD and PhD in CS (odd combination, but definitely useful). You may also be interested in the field of computational biophysics. It's all of the same ilk.
The article poster said he was interested in CS. Are you interested in research or business? There are a lot of different routes you could take. Do you want to deal with biomedical engineers, biochemists, or lawyers? Frankly, you were way too broad.
Incidentally, for what ever it's worth. You may get a kick out of http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/">Stuar t Kauffman's work. He's regarded as one of the best in the field of complexity research. He also has an MD and no PhD. He taught himself quite a bit.
Some good Math and CS books:
"The (New) Turing Omnibus: 66 Excursions in Computer Science" by A. K. Dewdney
This book is a great advanced introduction to all of the major topics of CS (except neural networks). This book has sections on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Relational Algebra (database theory), viruses, operating systems, data structures, and more. This is a great book for you.
http://aduni.org/ [aduni.org]
This site has lectures from an entire CS curriculum online. It was an experimental program designed for people like you.
You'll need a good introductory book on programming. Since you're probably not worrying about polishing up your resume, and you seem to be more interested in learning, you should take a look at:
"The Little Schemer" or "The Little LISPer" by Daniel Friedman.
If you really want the traditional route, take a look at "Thinking in Java" [mindview.net] by Bruce Eckel. It's free and most people recommend Java or C++ as a good first language.
If you're really daring, try the "Perl" book by Larry Wall or "Learning Perl" by Randall Schwartz. Although, I think Perl is a horrible first language to learn. It's way too exotic.
Take a look at "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" by W. Richard Stevens. It's a great book on the internals in Unix.
Learn assembly language, it's a poor man's computer architecture course. Try to make a small graphics program (draw some primitives [lines and circles]) with assembly. Of course, you can't do that in Windows (unless you call some Win32 libraries or are VERY good.
"First Order Logic" by Raymond Smullyan
This book essentially covers the mathematics of automated theorem proving. Armed only with this, I was able to read papers in the field. Some knowledge of basic logic (prepositional logic, maybe some slight familiarity with predicate logic) is required. I'd also recommend a whole lot of "mathematical maturity". I recommend any of Raymond Smullyan's books (technical and popular science) sight unseen. Even his thesis (Theory of Formal Systems) was pretty good.
Any book by Howard Whitley Eves or Robert R. Stoll
Both men wrote books on matrix theory (linear algebra and more) and set theory. Actually, both are top-notch textbook writers and many of their books are available from Dover Publications [doverpublications.com].
Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus P. Thompson (or by FRS [Fellow of the Royal Society] if it's really old) and Calculus by Michael Spivak
The first book is the closest thing to a competent Calculus for dummies. It's almost 100 years old and it's a classic. Incidentally Mr. Thompson was an engineer, not a mathematician. The second book is notoriously rigourous and is almost an introduction to analysis. I don't know if you really care about Calculus. You probably won't
PLEASE stay in the medical field (Score:3, Insightful)
There are tons of jobs for doctors here in Canada and the US. Unlike the vast majority of engineering and CS jobs, medical diagnoses will never be outsourced. Heck, take a small business course and get creative with what you've got now and market your services uniquely as a GP or whatever else you want to do. Without health, we have nothing. That's why your job is likely the fundamentally most important job in our society, and why doctors will be the last people on earth out of work.
Graduate Study in Biomedical Engineering (Score:3, Interesting)
Most certainly you'll have some undergraduate coursework to fill in, but you could go into areas such as biomechanics if you want to get your hands dirty or medical information systems if you want something more on the IT side.
Information systems, medical imaging and image analysis, biosignal analysis and processing, there's a pretty wide range of computational and traditional engineering focus areas that would benefit immensely from your experience.
Biomedical Engineering is still a growth field in this country, particularly in the R&D. Being an M.D. would make you uniquely qualified for clinical research, though that's largely a need outside of the information arena.
If you are interested in this path, talk to some universities that offer degrees and take some of the introductory coursework via satellite programs and get yourself admitted. A M.S. degree will be sufficient to get you into the job market and you can probably pull that off in about 3 years.
Advice (Score:5, Funny)
Are any of these posters actually CS people? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Programming! Programming!" - Any quality CS program is only about 1/3rd programming related. 1/3rd is theory, and the other 1/3rd is hardware architecture. Usually you'll have a few advanced classes which bring it all together (like operating systems design). A well educated computer scientist can switch languages with ease depending on the needs of the work and learn new ones quickly. In the CS world, programming is just a means to an end. I'm 1 semester shy of graduating with a degree in it and doing the programming is perhaps the least interesting part that I thankfully, spend little time in. I'm more interested in solving problems with *design* than typing away lines of code.
"There's no jobs!" - Yeah. Maybe if you don't have a CS degree which focuses on the *SCIENCE* part of it. There is a quite a demand for people in the engineering and scientific world who can design (as opposed to simply "program") advanced algorithms and computation software. Even if your speciality isn't scientific computing there is still a large number of jobs waiting for people with CS degrees out of well known schools in a variety of areas. IBM's making a big push for CS grads.
"*somethingsomething* IT! " - CS is *not* IT. Its like comparing the doctor's receptionist to the doctor. I'm not belittling the receptionist or the IT people - both the doctors and the CS folks need their records/networks organized and maintained with skill - but they do fundamentally different things.
Special graduate program for entering CS (Score:3, Informative)
Depends on what you mean... (Score:3, Insightful)
Computer programming is something you can learn to do adequately well in your spare time, sufficient to build small but very useful systems.
Software engineering is (or should be, the term is widely bandied around but not very meaningfully sometimes) the process of building large software systems on time, on budget, and to specified levels of quality and reliability - at least in theory.
Computer science is the theoretical study of computing - what they can and can't do, how long it takes to do it, and trying to make them do the things they can't current do very well! It's conducted at universities and research labs, mostly by people with or seeking PhDs. Much of it is almost a branch of mathematics.
If you're already a practising physician, 5-10 years from now it will be a little late for you to be considering becoming a full-on computer science researcher in a field that doesn't take advantage of your background.
You could certainly learn to become a competant programmer in your spare time, but it would take another degree and more professional experience to become a fully-fledged software engineer. As you've heard, there's a lot of doom and gloom at the moment about job prospects in that field, mainly because of the outsourcing boom. Who knows what the demand will be like in 10 years. However, demand for doctors is virtually guaranteed to increase over the next decade or two as the population ages, so I wouldn't be considering the move if job security is at all important.
If you are serious about a career change, I'd be exploring the possibilities of working on medical technology. From what I hear, doctors are notoriously clueless when it comes to information technology, so somebody who can translate between medical jargon and IT jargon is going to be enormously valuable and have a very interesting career, no matter what side of the fence they sit on.
CS and Medicine (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd say if you are considering switching careers, combine an MS degree program with self-study. Academic programs offer contacts and structure.
On the very interesting, but smaller market, side: bioinformatics is a field that obviously benefits from education in both areas. Being highly proficient on both fields could give you a very cool research job.
On the vanilla, but much wider market, side:
- The medical industry is still lagging behind in IT. Most doctors are not computer-savyy, and this has translated in low IT spending and traditional, paper-and-people based solutions for a lot of things. Small to medium medical offices can be positively Luddite.
- There is a desperate need for good software that has not been, and cannot be, satisfied by typical retail software. Think custom applications, vertical markets. The few applications that exist own their respective markets and charge accordingly high bills.
- New regulations (HIPAA for one) and market pressure are forcing the industry in the US to do more than "catch up" and embrace technology much like financial institutions have done for a long time.
- HIPAA et al will not only force a lot of IT investments in that community; they impose new BIG requirements on the vertical applications that already exist. This opens the market to competition that can meet those requirements better and/or faster than the conservative choice (which may not meet them at all).
The difficult part (I believe) is on having medical knowledge and credibility, where a professional of that industry has an advantage. Being able to communicate with doctors, understand what they want and let them understand what they need. That's easier for someone who shares their vocabulary and frame of mind.
Team up with some geeks if you need to (to build an application, for example) and go into the market as a startup. Or knock on the doors of the more stable companies you find in that field.
interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
Now that that's out of the way: if you're considering a schooling method other than self-instruction, you're not going to be fit for the industry anyway, so don't even bother. Seriously - people go to school for things like IT and CS, sure, but just that won't do a thing for a person. CS requires one be always updating their skills; if you're just getting into the field at 40+ (I figure this number from the idea that you graduated college at 23ish, the spen 8 more years in school after that, plus whatever time you needed to become an established physician who is already considering a career change) and doing so by going back to school, chances are you've not got the right mindset to be successful in the field, especially considering the atmsophere of the industry for the last 3ish years.
Have you been under a rock for the last 3 years, I wonder? Seriously. I can't but almost consider this some sort of mockery of slashdot, and possibly simply a joke. You're a physician. You rob people of immense amounts of money (usually paid for by insurance). Your job is dependable - people will always get ill. You could live a comfortable live and spend your money on expensive gadgets and new server racks for your toys - and do it on your leasure, for enjoyment. But instead you'd rather make a pittance in your old age, at risk of being fired or dismissed for any number of reasons, so as to get to work long hours under unkind managers? It seems to me that the doctor tends to be at, or near, the top, in many situations. Seems a bit more preferable.
Intro to CS? (Score:3, Funny)
Dr, I must say this idea is daft (Score:5, Insightful)
The situation in the computer industry is like medicine would be as if every kid who had dissected some fetal pigs decided to hang out a shingle and become an obstetrician.
You're looking at replacing a secure, varied and financially extremely rewarding field with a field which is insecure, hypersaturated, and arguably can be done by someone with very little education.
Not only that but IS work lends itself to ruts. Wherever you work, you're going to be learning an API or a network system, and then you're going to be writing for or supporting that API or network, until you get another job, where you could very well be doing exactly the same thing.
If you're interested in spending your time in overcrowded cubicle farms full of stressed, angry, reclusive programmers who live in constant fear that their jobs are going to be given to retrained bricklayers from bloody Pakistan, you're headed in the right direction!
Oddly enough, I'm in a position now where I can run screaming from the bloated tech industry, and I'm back in college getting ready for med school.
The only way your idea is not utterly BONKERS is if you want to somehow use your medical skill to get into something like bioinformatics where the money is potentially gigantic for doctors who have technical ability.
Here's what the computer industry is like right now. You have a lot of people who are very experienced and good at what they do. Then you have numerous carpetbagging amateurs who have installed kiddie Linux a few times, are good at bullshit, and have wormed themselves into positions of responsibility. It's almost like a kind of Ponzi scheme.
That's much of the reason why the industry lost a lot of its credibility. That's much of the reason why the industry started asking "Why are we paying this yoyo $120 an hour when Patel in Calcutta says that he can get the job done for rupees on the dollar?"
Look very very carefully at this before you do it. You've got numerous people here-- who should know-- telling you things like "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." This is no joke.
Sorry to rant but I'm sure most of ya all know what I'm talking about
First find what you want to do (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Hardware design. These are the guys that start it all, who make the circuts that eventually come into everyone's computers. This is engineering, specifically computer and electrical. It's all about circut engineering and design, simulation, and making it work in the real world.
2) Software design. The next step. You take the finished hardware, and implement the code that makes it usable. This is computer science and is all about writing, debugging and testing code.
3) Support. The final stage. Once everything is designed, out in the real world, and being used, someone has to keep it working. Stuff breaks down, and users can't fix it, so someone must support it. There really isn't a university degree for this, though CIS or maybe MIS would be the closest thing. It's all about solving problems with finished systems.
So, which appeals to you? While you can cross from one to the other, it's generally good to try and pick what you want to do and work to that. HArdware guys should work on an engineering degree, support guys should work on low-level job experience and certifications.
Now once you've picked a general area, you need to look at specifics. What particularly do you want to do. Like if you are a support guy is it networks you like? Computers? Server farms? A mix? I mean within each broad area, there's lots to do.
So, really, what you need to do first is take some basic courses, talk to people, read some literature, maybe get some friends to take oyu on job tours, but try and figure out what it is you like about computers and what you'd want to do. It, like most fields, is broad and there is plenty to do. Try and find the niche that is right for you, then persue it. This isn't 1999 where anything computer related would land you a job in 6 seconds, you need to get relivant skills and experience to what you want to do. So the first step is to figure out what that is.
medical informatics (Score:3, Insightful)
It is also worth noting that Dalhousie Comp sci has just aquired Jon Borwein who is one of the worlds formost experts in experimental mathematics and just happens to have a history with several of the developers of the Medical informatics progam. It is unclear if he will be involved with the program but he will certainly be teaching courses at Dal. Probably worth looking into.
A little pricey, but if you like Online classes... (Score:3, Informative)
= 9J =
Combine, combine, combine (Score:3, Interesting)
My Heartfelt Recommendation (Score:3, Insightful)
* As an MD, your next-door neighbors don't really expect you to "just pop over and check out Bob's heart a bit
* As an MD, your time is respected (see above).
* As an MD, you're employable.
* As an MD, it pretty much stands that you're in a respectable profession with reasonable people. The same assumptions will not neccessarily be made in tech.
* As an MD, if the patient dies, people are typically understanding. As a tech, if you can't revive someone's 80086 to run Windows XP PRO, then YOU SUCK.
* As an MD, you'll see the field saturated with Indian and Pakistani folks. As a tech, you'll see the field cornered with Indian and Pakastani folks(1).
* As a HOBBY, computers are great and are quite rewarding
* If you're looking for some Mad Money / Retirement Money, look elsewhere. I personally ended up coming back to school for advanced degrees rather than go work in Texas for $28,000/year as a professional.
* Respect, respect, respect. MD == "professional". Engineer/IT Person == "professional" also
G'luck. I personally wish that I'd have done what you did (med school and kept computing as a HOBBY) rather than the other way around.
N
(1) I have nothing against either; I worked for/with Pakastanis in a mom-and-pop shop in the mid-90s
One of my clients could be you... (Score:3, Insightful)
He's a top-notch dermatologist and has worked as a consultant for the most advanced imaging system available for dermatology - one that can automatically diagnose dermal anomalies such as skin cancer. He's got a company that expertises in medical E-Learning for medical personell and works for various medical organizations and the pharma industry.
I'd suggest that if you want to study because it interests you, get used to the idea of studying for fun. When you've got your degree you can still decide what to do with it.
On the other hand, I'd suggest you either stick with your jobs which has something around a bazillion advantages over CS and IT or you combine both with medical consulting for pharma companies and other organizationhs in IT related medical projects. Or medical related IT projects. You could even do it parttime until your business is going.
As for my client/partner, he hasn't got a CS degree but he spends 2 days a week dealing with the field and it's geeks (me). His Webdesign is horrid and I'm having a hard time talking him out of it, but his medicine skill and expertise combined with my computer expertise gets us to sit together with the really big boys in pharmacy, who have so much money they light up their chimney with 500 Euro bills.
Bottom line:
Get into _one_ field that interrests you in CS/IT that you think could go well with what you've got allready. If you've got the brains you won't need a degreed - don't forget: medicine has been around since 10000 years, but computerwise we're still in a stone age, with maybe 100 years of knowlege in the field! It's all about brains and what ideas _you_ come up with. Technologies change and evolve on a half-year basis. Not a good enviroment for a usefull degree, if you ask me.
My partner and I use open source + custom code only and we're 2 people competing and outrunning companies with 100 employees and more - I'd strongly suggest you go that way too. When you're firm enough get yourself a contractor/partner like me
I did something similar (Score:3, Informative)
I have a Ph.D. in biology and recently transitioned to a programming job at a major pharmaceutical company. I did this at a time when the market was absolutely flooded with programmers blasting out of the popped bubble. In order to accomplish this I had to be willing to start at the bottom (a low paid contractor) in lieu of demonstrable programming experience, I had to be an excellent programer (and willing to work hard and prove it), I had to combine all of my skills together into a coherent whole, and I had to get a lucky break.
I considered many of the training options that you have and that were suggested in other posts. My plan was to become a Sun Certified Java Programmer as proof that I wasn't a complete technical idiot, do some work on an open source project related to the field, and go from there. I got my lucky break before I took the certification exam, but I believe that it was basically a sound plan.
My science background turned out to be a perfect match for this job. Since I excel in both fields I can tackle problems that no ordinary coder would stand a chance at and no scientist has the time or programming skills for.
As I am now in a position to hire or influence the hiring of people, here are some things I would be looking for if I had your resume on my desk.
- A body of programming work (open source projects or just personal projects, but something I could look at and probe you for knowledge on)
- Some kind of paper proof that you might know what you are doing (Java Certification or some other comparatively difficult certification, a masters in computer science, etc)
- Claimed knowlege of a variety of technologies (Java, XML, HTML, Web Services, J2EE,
.NET, etc). The actual mix you would need would depend a great deal on the actual job, but you should show breadth if possible.
If I then interviewed you I would be looking for things like:I am not trying to sell you on programming for the pharmaceutical industry. This was all just intended to give you a real-world example and to inspire you to find your own niche.
dhk
Do whatever you want really... (Score:3, Interesting)
Right now is probably the best time ever to find really good computer engineering, software, hardware talent in the U.S. A lot of really good people are looking for work. So if I were you I would get some basic education on areas you may not know as well. I.e. Data modeling, good basic object oriented classes, some Comp Sci history, database Principles, etc. Then start a company with all the good talent around looking for work doing what you enjoy most.
I could think of many areas in medical technology that if good techies were paired up with an actual physician would have extreme potential and it would be very rewarding work.
Sales/Consulting for Doctors (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand, I'm in IT consulting, so I might be biased. I also really don't know that industry. Everything in this book may be wrong.
Biomedical Engineering (Score:5, Insightful)
Forget programming, millions of people can do that -- but not many people can mix your two areas of expertise.
Second career in CS after medicine (Score:3, Insightful)
Good luck. Duke out.
Business Plan... (Score:3, Insightful)
2) Provide a unique service/slant towards what you do. The problem with many IT types is they lack of a systematic way of dealing with their network/PC gear. You would be amazed at the folks I have seen who run a few hundred machines literly by the seat of their pants. Nothing is written down, nothing is documented, the guy calls it 'job security' but it results in a real LOSS to his company at the bottom line, measured in downtime for the people who actually do work for the company.
Your age and experience in a 'real' field of profesional service will provide a great basis for a carreer in IT managment/Consulting.
3) Network! You know a lot of doctors. Docs are the BEST customers, because they are professionals. They will respect your ability, pay you, and stand back. You could concievably hit the ground running with your current circle of professional contacts, and never look back.
4) Laugh all the way to the bank and wonder how anyone could outsource a job that requires physical presence...
Re:Jeepers... (Score:5, Funny)
I thought the same about my fellow geeks. To wit:
Unless you got stuck being an anusologist, stay with medicine.
Anusologist? I believe proctologist [vienna-doctor.com] is the correct term - google is your friend.
Actually, I think SCO could realy, really use a computer person who is also a skilled proctologist - that way someone would be there to remove Darl's head from his ass.
Soko