Changing Jobs for Job Satisfaction? 895
I-love-my-work, who is considering rejoining the IT world after a stint in business, asks: "A molecular biologist with a PhD at University of
Birmingham, in the UK, quits his lab position to become a plumber, since a plumber apparently earns twice what he currently makes (~US$42K).
How many of you would change careers if given a chance? What factors would influence the decision (money, hours, upper management, a chance to enjoy more of your life)?" What factors would make you seriously consider leaving your current career for another?
Paid? (Score:4, Funny)
Duuuude....
Re:Paid? (Score:3, Informative)
"...it's the old 'cut our way to profitability' trick!!!"
Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Getting paid 1/4 for job satisfaction? Nah..
What bills are necessary? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was a programmer for a while, most notably during the bubble. I was paid really well, enjoyed the work itself most of the time, and got great perks. I also worked in an office with no windows 40 to 50 hours a week, and it could be pretty frustrating at times (in a damn, this idiot will NEVER understand the point I'm trying to make! kind of way) So I decided to go back to school.
I'm working on a PhD in archaeology. The stipend I'm living off of is a quarter of what I was making at my old job (not considering things like inflation and the raises I would've gotten between then and now.) I can't afford cable or to go out for dinner all that much; I'm living below the poverty line. But I love my life! I travel every summer to exotic places, I love what I spend my time doing, I am intellectually challenged every minute of the day, set my own schedule again, and am excited about the fact that I have so much freedom to determine where I will be in the future. Which university or universties I'll end up teaching at, where I'll do my research, all of the places I'll be able to visit. All of the reading I'll do and all of the time I'll spend outdoors instead of in an office with no windows. It'd be great if at some point I make a lot of money again, and I'm sure I'll manage to do just fine (under the poverty line is for grad students; I don't plan to stay here forever.) But for me, it was no choice: job and LIFE satisfaction over any amount of money, any day.
Re:What bills are necessary? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What bills are necessary? (Score:5, Funny)
And I bet many guys would agree. (Okay, the half-million might be a stretch.)
--RJ
Re:What bills are necessary? (Score:5, Funny)
Why not have it both ways? The profesional pulling down half a million will be far too busy to notice the student on the side.
Dead money (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you explain why paying a landlord for the use of his asset (a house) is evil and stupid, whereas paying a bank for the use of their asset (a lump of capital) is clever and mature?
It
Re:What bills are necessary? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What bills are necessary? (Score:5, Insightful)
Having a car of any kind is generally expensive; the problem isn't just the price of the car, but insurance, registration/taxes, and repairs. If you buy some crappy used car, thinking you're going to save money, you'll more than make up for it in regular repairs (depends on the car of course). And even if you never have problems, if you're under 25 the insurance is ridiculous. It's better over 25, but still a significant cost. Of course, if your alternative is the bus, you better live fairly close to everyplace you need to go because they're so slow.
Where this whole "living cheap" thing totally falls flat on its face is when you get into marriage and kids, something, statistically, most adults do at some point in their lives. Yeah, I know this is Slashdot, but I think even most people here will experience one or both of these eventually; I really doubted it too when I was in college but now that I'm pushing 30, things have changed a lot. There is simply no way you can raise kids properly on a poverty-line income. Sure, lots of people have kids and are dirt poor, but their kids are sick, in jail, etc. I've never heard anything good about raising kids while living in the ghetto.
This has nothing to do with an "ostentatious" lifestyle; families making $40k have a hard time making ends meet in this country when they have 2-3 kids ($80k in california), and the reason is the high cost of living, caused by many, many factors which could fuel several articles here.
Of course, armchair idealists will say "it's all about choices you make", but here in the real world, people are limited by the society they live in and the costs it imposes on them (you know how much it costs to visit the doctor when you don't have health insurance?).
Re:What bills are necessary? (Score:4, Interesting)
- Get a roommate
- Live in a co-op
- Work for the apartment complex in exchange for free/discounted lodging
- Acquire skills so that you can make more money
- Don't have kids until you can afford them
- Work in a place that provides lodging and food, like in the hospitality industry
- Work out payment plans with doctors
- Carpool
- Don't eat out
- Grow your veggies in a garden. If you're in an apartment, join a community garden
- Barter
- Shop at Goodwill.
- Work two jobs, or, when finished with one job, take continuing education courses
- Take advantage of church/community/family/industry networks and programs.
- Buy in bulk with others in your community to share in savings.
- Learn how to budget: read books, go to workshops, listen to radio shows like Clark Howard
- Sell your television.
- Save for emergencies.
- Don't use credit cards.
- take advantage of overdraft protection, either with a line of credit or with a secured amount outside of your checking account.
- Research before making large purchases.
Basically, it breaks down to this: Work. Save. Learn. Plan. Pool.
If you do these things, you can live on an extremely small amount of day-to-day income. The people who are harping on about the Living Wage BS are whiners. They wouldn't have to worry about it if they simply worked, saved, learned, planned and pooled.
I make about $30-$35K. I invest 25% of this. Between the amount invested and the amount taken from me in taxes, I make about $12-$15K. I live off of this just fine. Certainly, It's not a luxurious life, but I'm fortunate to be able to invest for a comfortable life later on. The limited take-home income I use now is worth it for me. For others with pre-investment salaries of about $12-$15K, they can invest in their future through acquiring new skills so that eventually they will be able to bring greater value to their employer. Then they will be able to invest in their future monetarily as I am able to do. It may not be as glamorous as being an archaeology grad student digging up bones all over the world, but one can be proud in living independently and in investing in a better future, through watever methods they are able to employ.
Let's quit with the class envy and beat-down attitude and look at how to make it happen. As soon as you do, you'll find a wealth of options and opportunities. Some of the most successful people come from meager beginnings. I'm sure none of them allowed for any time wimpering about how they didn't win life's lottery or demanding a "living wage."
Correct (Score:3, Interesting)
(shameless plug by me
What I don't get is... (Score:5, Funny)
Find a job you love.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, I used to love programming. Then I got a job doing it for a living
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Insightful)
basically you liked it as a hobby, not as a job.
a good thing to keep in mind.
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
I can hear it now: "I used to like installing PVC drainage pipes but now, well when I get home and find a leak under the sink it's just too much like work to get under there and fix it."
Frist rule of plumbing: shit don't run up hill.
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
So you're telling me that Ron Jeremy responds to a woman coming onto him with, "Naa, you look pretty hot an' all, but it'd feel too much like work..."?
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:3, Insightful)
If not, you have not yet found a job you love.
KFG
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I still don't watch regular television anymore - can't bear to watch what amounts to crap for free. I do watch some Discovery Channel and the History Channel, that's time well spent - but regular TV
so damn true (Score:3, Funny)
Obviously science and biochemistry was something I would do as a hobby . . . out of school now, and having been working for 6 years in the field. . . there is no desire left to do science in the kitchen, it just feels like work without the pay.
Even
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Insightful)
But when programming (or speaking or writing) matures into becoming a tool, its spectrum of possibilities for rewarding engagement widens dramatically.
Choose your next job by its projects. (And soon.)
You like to program for yourself not someone else (Score:3, Insightful)
You dont do things that dont interest you.
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:3, Insightful)
But to answer the root question - I wouldn't change. I love what I do too much, and I think I get paid decently for it as well. I am the type of geek who spends 8 hours on the computer at work, then comes home
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Informative)
I was in very much the same boat as you in my first job. Four pretty miserable years working on financial software at a nasty company. I was bored, drained of energy, frustrated, and I had completely lost all love of programming. I actually dreaded coding-when I did get a chance to code, instead of dealing with all kinds of political crap. I changed jobs a short while ago, and its made a world of difference. Here I'm working almost 100% of my time on code, the work is challenging as hell, the coworkers are sharp, and I don't have to deal with all kinds of political crap. On top of that, I'm actually coding in my spare time again-something I stopped doing over two years ago.
What I'm saying is, there are jobs out there which are much better in this industry. Some suck, some are much better. The good jobs are always rare, in any industry, but they *are* out there. Don't lose hope.
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Insightful)
find a job you like enough to do for the rest of your life, that pays well and doesn't have too long hours. Then do the stuff you love with your money and free time.
Because let's face it, there's way more stuff that's fun to do in your free time than as a job.
And if you love your job, there's a good chance you're not making enough money to do a whole lot of other stuff. (love + money + time is perfect, like + money + time is a great, easier to attain second place)
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:5, Funny)
and you'll never work a day in your life...
after they outsource that job to India!
Re:Find a job you love.... (Score:3, Insightful)
If we're taking an employee making $40K and looking at one for $30K, that's a big percentage drop in pay. Now if your talking $130k and looking at $120K, that's probably a person who can afford to give up their disposable income. I fall somewhere in the middle and gave up $12K recently to get a position with reasonable hours and better learning opportunity.
I'd have to say that when I first started, making money was the
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:yeah.... I'm just not gonna go anymore (Score:5, Funny)
Time with my family (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, I make pretty good scratch, but what fun is the money if you never get a chance to spend it?
These questions and more are definately floating around our office.
Re:Time with my family (Score:5, Funny)
Ask you wife.
Re:Time with my family (Score:3, Funny)
Outsource the spending part. That gives you more time to earn money. And purely concidental, I happen to be an excellent spender, so I'll be your outsourcing company for very reasonable fee.
Re:Time with my family (Score:3, Funny)
>
> Outsource the spending part. That gives you more time to earn money. And purely concidental, I happen to be an excellent spender, so I'll be your outsourcing company for very reasonable fee.
Tinfoil hats rejoice! Proof positive that the Government does read Slashdot!
Re:Time with my family (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, you do get more time to spend with your kids. I've been working at home for over 3 years now and it's wonderful. My kids are young still, but I am looking forward to the day they will be able to work with me and I can teach them.
My Dad owned a business with his brothers (he had a office of course, not at home) that my great grandfather started. I really feel a loss that I never was taught
On the other hand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, I make pretty good scratch, but what fun is the money if you never get a chance to spend it?
I've heard this from a lot of people. And certainly there are scores of people who spend too much time at work and not enough with their families. But I always remember what happened to some guy who used to work here: he came down with Alzheimer's in his 40s. I work at a scientific/engineering kind of place and, needless to say, your mind is the most important tool you have. This poor guy got struck down with a terrible disease way before his time. He had to retire. He just couldn't do the work anymore. Here's a case where doing the right thing for your family would have been to save up a big chunk of dough to support them if you died or could no longer work. Of course, he didn't know he was going to get Alzheimer's -- and certainly not at such an early age -- so he can't be blamed if he didn't save up a shitload of money "just in case."
The point I'm trying to make is that these issues are tough. No one has the "right" answer. Maybe your family is better off if you take a pay cut and have more time for them. And maybe your family is better off if you work your ass off when you're young and save up a lot of money to support them in case something happens to you. No way to know for sure. It's questions and issues like this that make life so exciting and terrifying at the same time.
GMD
Re:On the other hand... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes you can get life insurance, disability insurance and health insurance to make sure your familiy is taken care of.
I know everybody hates insurance but if you get yourself covered properly it is a huge help.
Money and Hours! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Money and Hours! (Score:5, Insightful)
How about a garbage collector ?
What about a factory worker ?
Are you sure? (Score:3, Insightful)
I think I'll be happy doing whatever so long as it pays well and I can live comfortably.
I'm not sure you've thought about this long enough. You spend almost a third of your life at your job. You'd really be happy doing ANYTHING for that third? Since another third of your life is sleeping, you're saying that you'll willing do anything for the work-third so you can enjoy yourself during your non-work-non-sleep-third. I'm not sure that's a reasonable trade. Now factor in the fact that what you do for a
Yup (Score:5, Funny)
I kill bugs (Score:5, Funny)
I just found out that I would make more money if I spend all day long, every day, finding bugs under furniture and kill those bugs.
Where do I sign? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Where do I sign? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Where do I sign? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you enjoy programming, never take any job in the IT field outside of programming. When looking for an internship or a first job, never accept any system administration, product support, or, especially, testing position. Once you are in these positions and they appear on your resume, you are pigeonholed. When you send your resume to any company, they will see your experience and only consider that for you placement. For any company with an HR departme
Re:Where do I sign? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not only that, but the TYPE of programming you do -- once you do a certain kind, you're pigeonholed in that, too.
For 7 years I was a C/Unix programmer. I was asked (in the "do it or you're fired way"), for the good of the company, to join a new project that was Unix backend and Visual Basic front end, and everyone got training on both. Fine, I thought it would broaden my skill set... ha! Since I picked up on the VB fast, they made me the main VB person on the project. Then I didn't work with Unix at all. At the end of the project, I was "the VB guy", and only got offered VB slots in the company. Looked outside, and no Unix or C shop would even consider someone who had been coding VB for a year. Those seven years before coding C/Unix... gee, must not have happened.
I've been through four companies since then, and I'm STILL coding VB. I come to
Go be a plumber. That's a useful job in society. Programmers should just be shot -- and when we're lining the streets three deep looking for jobs, that's precisely what they'll do to us, just to keep from blocking traffic.
A plumber? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A plumber? (Score:5, Funny)
Well timed article... (Score:5, Interesting)
What I'm looking for:
Reasonable job satisfaction- No more adjusting the settings on something that's going to get screwed up constantly or need non-stop maintenance. Something physical. And preferably something that people don't consider vital to their life. I can't even guess how many day-traders have threatened to hold me responsible for their ISP being down...
Human interaction-And by human, I don't mean people that can't use their computers.
Being in a job where the only people you see for months on end are 7 other guys kind of gets old. Especially if you don't get out a lot.
Money will/would be nice, but my expenses are low, so I'm fortunate that it won't be a primary concern.
I was given the chance (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously though, it was a very pleasant experience : 2 years of absolute slacking, doing only what I wanted on the money I had made during the bubble, recovering from 5 years of uninterrupted software development death marches that had left me kind of sick, and reflecting on all the mistakes I will never make in the future, either as an employee or as an entrepreneur.
(almost) a true story (Score:5, Funny)
So it happened. The professor got a plumber job and his life significantly improved. He just had to seal a screw or two occasionally, and his salary went up significantly. One day, the board of the plumbing company decided that every plumber has to go to evening classes to complete the eighth grade. So, our professor had to go there too. It just happened that the first class was math. The evening teacher, to check student's knowledge, asked for a formula for the area of the circle. The person who was ask was the professor. He jumped to the board, and then he realized that he forgot the formula.
He started to reason it and soon filled the board with integrals, differentials and other advanced formulas to conclude the result that he had forgotten. As a result he got "negative pi times r squared." He didn't like the negative, so he started all over again. He got the negative sign again. No matter how many times he tried, he always got a negative. He was frustrated. He looked a bit scared at the class and saw all the plumbers whisper: "Switch the limits of the integral!!"
Cops... (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a case where a guy scored extremely high on one of those little tests, and was therefore not hired. Of course, once his lawyer was done, he probably didn't need to....
Re:(almost) a true story (Score:5, Informative)
If you mean the part about the integral, here it is really quickly.
An integral is a way of finding the area under a curve between two points. These two points are called limits. If you evaluate the integral with the limits accidentally reversed, your answer will be negative.
An integral is used in calculus and is basically the same thing as multiplication in algebra. Here's an example of the punch line using algebra. If you have a long piece of wood that is 10-cm tall and you need to cut a piece out of the middle, say from the 3-cm point to the 13-cm point, the area of that piece would be:
area = width * length = 10 * (13 - 3) = 100.
The cut points, 3 cm and 13 cm, are exactly the same as the limits in calculus. If you reverse them you get the negative answer:
10 * (3 - 13) = -100.
Michael. [michael-forman.com]
Would I? Sure, I already did! (Score:5, Insightful)
Me too! (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not in it for the money.... (Score:5, Interesting)
What's the worst that could happen? Your bulbs don't germinate on time? Maybe some of your plants get some bugs... It's not like 500 employees breathing down your neck because the server is down.
But I would really miss working with the people. Go figure. The source of most of my IT pain is really the only reason for working in the industry.
Illusionary (Score:5, Insightful)
So chemists want to be he-man plumbers, swinging a pick and gaining satisfaction from building something tangible? Plumbers wish they could sit on their asses out of the weather and keep their fingers soft and clean on a keyboard all day. Programmers wish they could be making explosions in a chemistry lab, wearing a cool white coat and getting all the chicks!!
More enjoyment out of life (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll switch careers when I find something that will make me as happy as doing 3d work did five years ago.
Stress. (Score:3, Interesting)
If I didn't like it, of course.
Right now, I work for a private college in the IT department. It's pleasant work, for the most part. Taking a job like this definitely caps your potential income, but frankly, there's a lot more important factors than money.
If I'm spending a third of my weekday hours somewhere, or more, why the hell would I do it somewhere I hate? That's like just _asking_ to be miserable the rest of the time.
--saint
Already doing it (Score:5, Interesting)
I get paid to (Score:5, Interesting)
plus i get paid well
Re:I get paid to (Score:3, Funny)
plus i get paid well
Whoa, you
Lets see... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully if you are in science, you are doing what you do for reasons other than financial gain. Ideally, one should be doing what they are doing in science to make a difference . Really, because there are a ton of things people can do that are much easier that writing papers, doing good science and applying for grants that make much more money than do your typical scientist. Take for instance the auto mechanic who works on my neighbors BMW. That dude (mechanic) clears six figures easy. Another set of examples: Before I went to graduate school, one of my jobs was a mechanic for old Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. That was not too bad in terms of income and certainly covered the cost of tuition. The carpenter we paid to make our couch makes some pretty good money. The dudes that replaced our sewer line and driveway cleaned up to the tune of $4000 or so. So, if you are just in it for the money, go get an MBA or a plumbing license or something.
Hand Made Guitars (Score:5, Interesting)
The way I feel about it is this: I can sit in a cubicle doing what is essentially rearranging random ones and zeros into non-random order to create something of value (although most of my time is actually spent doing documentation, reports, supervision, meetings etc).
OR I can take a bunch of raw pieces of wood and create something that is not only beautiful, but allows a musician to create even more beauty and music.
Which one sounds more satisfying to you?
The more I write code the more I want to build guitars for a living.
[BTW, I'd love to add a shameless plug for my website right about here but I'd probably just slashdot myself and end up taking my whole site down]
Been there, done that (kind of) (Score:4, Insightful)
1998-2003: Commercial programmer. OK at first, but eventually I was just doing the same old stuff again and again. I was getting very bored and I think because of that, unproductive.
So now I'm an applied mathematician in bioinformatics (having studied no biology since early high school). I was earning 40% more at the previous job, but it is worth it to be doing something interesting again.
Money is nice (a friend once called it "the sincerest form of appreciation") but having new, challenging and interesting things to do is more important.
Post-doc? Of course plumbers make more... (Score:4, Insightful)
A junior technician (bachelor's degree) can make around $50K USD here in the US. A PhD can command more as a "mere lab tech." That's IF s/he wants to continue to do science. They can get jobs reasonably easily as *shudder!* consultants. In fact, I went to seminar on how to tweak your resume (a science PhD resume, anyway) to get a job in consulting.
I seriously doubt he'll be making over $100K USD after 5 years as a plumber. With his PhD he can, if he plays his cards right.
In the words of Clark W. Grsiwold... (Score:3, Funny)
I'd give up my day job in a heartbeat if there was any money in the massive sculpture market.
Median Plumbers Salary in the US -- $32,406 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Median Plumbers Salary in the US -- $32,406 (Score:3, Interesting)
Passion ... ? (Score:5, Insightful)
But so what? Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean that you should. I've made in excess of $100,000/year as a software consultant for four years. Now I'm finishing my English degree and studying poetry. People do this sort of thing all the time and it usually comes when they're a little older and have a better idea of what matters to them in life and what gives them the energy to get up in the morning and face the day. The molecular biologist has some big bills, perhaps. Or maybe he's just a smart guy that put in a ton of work -- Ph.D.'s, after all, aren't earned in a few weekends of spare time study, at least not from a reputable school -- and then found that the reality of research is different from the intellectual stimulation of textbooks.
Do I like software? Yes, I do. I compete on TopCoder, read books about functional programming, and throw mud at SCO. But writing and literature is, simply speaking, closer to my heart. For another person it's training an ancient breed of dogs. And for yet another person it's going to Canada to commune with, well, Canadians I guess.
The fact is that, given basic education, intelligence and wherewithal, we live in a world where you don't *have* to settle for doin' what yer daddy done, or towing the line, or staying "safe" if you don't want to.
This molecular plumber guy is just searching for a reward, I guess. After a few years of the realities of a plumber, it's possible yet he may look fondly back at his days as a molecular biologist
$42k a year (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, something similar to this happened to me, minus the 42k and phd. I recently swapped careers after over 8 years as an automotive tech. I decided I was tired of going home greasy, busting my knuckles, and working out in the cold. Now I'm in school part time, and working with the same company only in the IT department. The dirtiest I get at work now is from a rabid dust bunny inside of a case or two. Needless to say I am happy of the change. Once school is completed I'll make at least twice what I did working on cars. I would have been reluctant to change had I not been able to stay with the same company. I know of many people who have their degrees in Computer Science, and cannot get a job either from the market bieng saturated or a lack of hands on experience. I am lucky enough to have the best of both worlds, job security, working at my degree, and getting hands on experience.
As for the plumber with a phd, my father always said "It doesn't matter if you make minimum wage washing dishes, as long as your happy with what you do."
Re:$42k a year (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you think that you have job security? People who think that they have job security are usually the first ones laid off. Write this down, and repeat it every morning when you brush your teeth: NOBODY HAS JOB SECURITY. As soon as you think that, you get slack, and forget it, your job is in India. No offense, dude, but you can't offshore auto mechanic jobs, and people will ALWAYS needs their cars fixed. IT jobs are being outsourced at an insane rate, and jobs are disappearing completely faster than you can say "IT". You're gonna be a training treadmill that's only going faster and faster. You think new cars every year is bad? Hell, at least the way an engine works stays pretty much the same year after year. In IT, get ready to learn a whole new skill set, I'd say, every 6 months. You really should think about this realistically. IT is about the least secure field for *anyone* these days, including Indians (their new jobs are moving to China and Vietnam, now)
Relative Hue of thisHill.Grass vs. thatHill.Grass (Score:4, Insightful)
He has since come back to working in the business world, which is why he now works for my company. Why? Well, he discovered that as an "odd job" laborer:
You have to work HARD.
You make no money.
You have no benefits.
You still have to deal with pompous, overbearing individuals who think they know, when in fact, they do not.
You do not get vacations.
Now given, YMMV, but I have found that the key to job happiness is having a good balance of expectations versus fulfillment. 3 years ago, when my expecations of employment were "I want a pool table, I want to go drinking every night with my coworkers, I want to work 80-hour weeks and be an IPO millionaire," I would have been miserable at my current job. The place is kinda corporate, after all. We have cubes, and use buzzwords, and there are "are you giving good customer service?" banners hanging up.
But now, what I want in a job includes things like vacation time, a chance to play with some fun technologies, good money, and a job that I can come in, do, and get outta here as quickly as possible. So now my job is a lot more fulfilling, partially because I found a different job, and partially because I modified my expectations.
If you are really miserable at your job, by all means, go elsewhere. I certainly did. But be prepared to take a good look at yourself and consider that part of the problem may lie with you.
Just get paid (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is in trouble (Score:3, Insightful)
I read most of the posts here and to summarize, we geeks are fed up to the top of our heads with the current state of affairs. Namely, corporations that don't give a damn about us. Unfortunately, most of us are indentured servants to our corporate masters at this time.
On the bright side, when the job market comes back these same corporate masters are going to wonder what hit them. Widespread walkouts, or extortion (large retention bonuses, immediate promotions/raises). If the idiot CxO's don't get a clue now, they are going to watch their companies implode as the brain drain hits them.
These sentiments mirror those of my colleagues. Our company had better get a clue too, or it won't be pretty.
Eh.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone here talks about how they can't leave IT, and "boo-hoo" that this corporation that cares little for you offshores your job.
The PhD in question realized that plumbing pays more (and to reply to another thread, a plumber can make much more than 100k USD if they want to).
Personally, I hate my IT job. I do network administration for a logistics company. We also have a help desk (which for some strange reason is my boss) and three programmers who program in something easier than VB (magic software out of israel if you are interested...shudder).
I loathe my IT job, loathe the fact that nobody understand what I do, loathe the fact that I am forgotten about, loathe the fact that I put in 80 hour weeks and get chastised for the raise I threaten to quit over if I didn't get it. I am going to quit. As someone else stated, money is the best form of flattery. Who will pay me better than me? Nobody. So I am starting my own buisness.
Yes it is a horrible plan (ebay selling combined with windshield repair) but I do have aspiritions (would like to start developing games for cell phones and pdas)
So I am leaving my position in about 3 months to start it. Will I make as much? No. I only make 40k now, but with benefits that is probably nearer to 50k a year ( no bonus, no matching 401k ). Do I have to potential to make more? Hell yes I do. I am greatly suprized that people haven't taken the ititiative to start up there own niche based software companies. I am about to, and plan on hiring part time java programmers from wherever they pop up, as so long as they can do the work.
Not everyone has the prudence to start there own buisness, not everyone can code 4000 (good) lines in a week, not everyone can program a pix without looking at it.
If you love coding, but hate your job, find a niche that nobody else has filled. Write damn good software, and actively work on getting it marketed to the people who will use it. Maybe a niche to you is an answering machine for your linux box that emails you the ogg version of the message. Maybe it is a good time management system. Or software for logistics, or dental offices, or time management. Is each one of these things something that will make you a millionare? Of course not. If you change certain aspects of it, and spin the marketing a certain way, and sell it correctly, you could easily be sucessful enough and make enough bread for your family.
I still come back here even though 95% of the posters on slashdot haven't a clue, and usually don't mod up the intellegent posts because they don't agree with them.
Favorite Quote: (Score:4, Funny)
they meet at the bar."
-- Drew Carry, the Drew Carry Show.
consulting + moonlighting = more than you make (Score:5, Interesting)
What people will pay for consultants: $100-$200/hr
If the consultant is steady work, the obvious comes out. Less work, better pay. Calculate it for yourself, make sure you match health insurance and 401k offerings. You'll find that 15 hours a week at $100/hr is a good way to go, IF you can get steady work.
Plumbers have it made. Plumbing is slow, tedious, DEPENDABLE work. A simple job is a minimum of 2 hours, $100/hr, well, one decent job a week will pay the bills. Going out on your own makes far more, and if you can secure work, the rewards are endless. Not having steady work is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot. It's a risk, weigh the options for you take it.
I'll finish with a true story:
I make around $40K at my job. I have all the certifications (MCSE, CNA, CCNA) that I need. I perform the tasks of those certifications on a regular basis. My boss has decided that my $20/hr opinion isn't worth as much as a $150/hr consultant, with no credentials, who has never visited our site. I built it from scratch, I know it inside out. Obviously I'm more qualified, I needed to teach him a lesson.
So, I tricked him. I have a side business, and I dropped off a business card for a "local consulting firm". We conversed over e-mail, and set up a time. He agreed to pay $100 for the initial consultation. I went home for lunch, changed into khakis with a shirt and tie, and showed up as the consultant. His face was beet red when he found out it was me, but I'm $100 richer and my boss is more eager to listen to me.
I Changed My Job: I Came Into IT (Score:4, Interesting)
I got into IT 20 years ago, back when a guy with some smarts and some good work habits could pick up K&R, learn it, and get a job. Having sampled something of the broader working work, I must say that I love IT. I'm with a small company where I get to code nearly all day long, there's minimal political bullshit, and the pay and bennies are excellent. Writing good code is so much more challenging and fun than cleaning toilets or digging graves, you have no idea!
In my best of all possible worlds, I would make my living as a musician. But that is not to be: lack of opportunity, and (to be truthful) lack of talent stand in the way. But for me, IT is a damn good second best. Take it from me, that greener grass you see out there probably is astroturf.
If you're young, do what makes you happy (Score:5, Insightful)
So what's the lesson learned? When you're young, work the job you like. You have your entire life to work jobs you hate and once you get that house, new car, wife, and children it will be tougher to leave a bad job if it pays well. When you're young and basically all you have in your life it work, make that work as enjoyable as possible. Plan for the future, but don't let that possible future ruin your present.
Re:I would change if I got paid the same (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I would change if I got paid the same (Score:3, Interesting)
If you made enought money to support you and keep you happy when you not at work but you hated your job would you want to stay at that job or leave and got to a lowe paying job?
Re:I would change if I got paid the same (Score:5, Interesting)
But you don't get any benefits! The value of a health plan, paid time off and other benefits (for me at least) works out to about $16k/year, or $8/hour. When you're self employed, half the cost of your health insurance is deductible.
But you pay higher taxes. Yeah, when you make more money you pay more tax, but you still have more money.
But you don't have job security. And I did before? Hah!
I know not every contractor's experience is the same as mine, but the point is, if you're stuck working for a company at a dead-end job, there's at least one major avenue you should explore before feeling hopeless.
Re:I would change if I got paid the same (Score:3, Funny)
Health, time, family.... and then money. (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway... he went to southamerica to close a few deals and I was running the business here. We were about 10 people. The problem was when he starting to call the customers to force payments (they were late) and ruined all the negotiations I did. Projects started to collapse and 3 of the best employees left. I tried to, but my hands were tied with the responsibiliti. Finally the stress led me to the hospital and when the company refused to pay the bill and the extra expenses I decided to quit. Money was good, but considering the chores I was doing, I deserved the money of 3 or 4 management positions.
You and your health is the most important, also take time to live your life, don't live for work. Become necessary to your company, but don't solve others work. If you feel abused, talk, if nobody listens, then it's time to give the fsk salutation to your boss. Chances are they won't support you in easy times, lesser are while you're in troubles.
My 2cents.
Re:Health, time, family.... and then money. (Score:3, Funny)
I trust you haven't been too busy untying yourself...
Re:I changed to IT (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I changed to IT (Score:5, Insightful)
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Re:I changed to IT (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I changed to IT (Score:3, Insightful)
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Re:The fact that it has all but moved to India... (Score:5, Funny)
And it'll smell, from all the shit piling up due to the lack of local plumbers!
Re:The fact that it has all but moved to India... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The fact that it has all but moved to India... (Score:3, Funny)
My unemployment checks or the money I get from the coke can recycling???
Re:They must have not heard of entry level... (Score:4, Funny)
You must mean MOONLIGHTED.
Moonlight : too work a second job after your primary job or a '80 detective show with Cybil Shepard (back when she was still a hottie) and Bruce Willis (back when he was still screwing Demi Moore)
Moonshine : an alcoholic beverage made with corn, wheat, or whatever one can get ahold of that will ferment usually causes blindness and draw the attention of revenuers -- the stuff granny made on the Beverly Hillbillies