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Parenting and a Career in Coding?

Posted by Cliff on Fri Jun 04, 2004 05:21 PM
from the how-well-do-they-mix dept.
el topher asks: "After 5+ years of being married, my wife and I have been blessed by her becoming pregnant. I've professionally been a programmer for a while now and am now concerned that commercial software development is not a good job for a dad to have. Thinking back on all the software development groups I've been in, it seems most of the coders were not parents, and the coders that were parents seemed to have trouble with things like dealing with unplanned death marches and not being there for their family. So my question to the programmers with kids out there: How does a programming career jive with family life? I'd especially like to hear about parents who have been coding for a while and the situations in this area they've faced."
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  • by Skyshadow (508) * on Friday June 04 2004, @05:22PM (#9340246) Homepage
    This seems like a situation where it's less about *what* you do for a living than *where* you do it.

    I used to work at startups and I currently work at the in-house development department for a major HMO (it's a big department, like 3500 people). The work itself hasn't changed a whole lot, but the expectations about hours certainly have -- at my current job, we're not relying on the next release to stay alive so there isn't a constant scramble to push product out the door. I've found, incidently, that this suits me much better than high-pressure 90 hour work weeks.

    You might expect that sort of job to pay less, but it actually doesn't. Sure, I'm not going to become suddenly rich off stock options, but who does these days?

    My advice would be to look for a job like mine -- someplace stable and with reasonable expectations when it comes to the hours you work. That's going to be someplace big and probably someplace in a industry where software/hardware isn't the big money-maker. Be sure they know your priorities; an interviewer at the sort of company you're looking for will respect a commitment to family. After all, these sorts of people are looking for *you* to be stable, too...

    Aside from that: Kudos to the author for realizing that his kids are more important than the software release. Bringing home the bacon is important, but it ain't everything -- When I was with the startups, all of the parents just dumped their kids into daycare and with babysitters a week after they were born -- our sales VP probably spent a week total of waking time with his new daughter over the course of a year. Bet he felt really good about that when the place went under...

    • Exactly (Score:5, Insightful)

      by stoolpigeon (454276) <bittercode@gmail> on Friday June 04 2004, @05:27PM (#9340289) Homepage Journal
      This is 100% dead on and the thread can be closed now. My wife worked for Boeing and Lockheed Martin- and this was never a problem. I've been programming for about 3 years now, and the times I've been forced to put in a lot of hours have been few and far between.

      I would think that changing employers would be easier than moving to a new profession.

      • Ditto. I worked for Litton for 17 years (before it became part of NG), and never had an issue.
        • by captain_craptacular (580116) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:07PM (#9340677)
          Who said anything about mission critical work? Just because larger corparations don't have asinine deadlines and DO have realistic schedules that don't require 90 hour weeks doesn't mean the above people aren't supporting mission critical systems.
          • by lucabrasi999 (585141) on Friday June 04 2004, @11:21PM (#9342476) Journal
            larger corparations don't have asinine deadlines and DO have realistic schedules

            Ah, what corporation are you working at? As a consultant, I have seen many, many organizations, both large and small, with asinine deadlines and unrealistic schedules.

            My present client (Fortune 500 company) doesn't just have asinine deadlines, they change the criteria of success to meet the missed deadlines.

            I travel for a living. I only see my 10 month-old son on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays. But, I see him all day long each of those days. I would suggest that the soon-to-be Dad not focus on the size of the company he works for, but he focus on what kind of benefits they offer and what kind of balance they have between work and life.

        • by stoolpigeon (454276) <bittercode@gmail> on Friday June 04 2004, @06:16PM (#9340728) Homepage Journal
          That's just looking at the situation from one perspective and forgetting the original options.

          Yes easier said than done- but easier than finding a whole new career? I think so. Especially if one accepts that this career must provide for a family and allow for a decent amount of time with the family. Switching careers and becoming entry level in almost any field tends to carry with it a drop in pay and less desirable hours.

          Is switching employers 'simple' and gauranteed? No- but compared to dropping 5 years of experience and starting over- it just might be.

          Finally- I don't work for a big company. I work for a small company. There are 2 developers- we are a financial business and I do internal stuff. Mission critical: yes. Crazy hours: rarely. I have 3 kids ages 4, 3, and 1. I spend a lot of time with them and my wife. It is more than doable. I do make a little less than those working for a large company. But enough for a house, food on the table and a car. (Not a big fancy SUV - but we get where we need to go).

    • by psycho_tinman (313601) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:40PM (#9340432) Journal

      To offer a concrete example or two, it is generally better to work for a product oriented company than some place actively looking for projects (send us anything in area X and we will implement it for you). The reason is that product timelines have a bit more flexibility since you're not generally working to please a specific customer, and it also means there will be more planning and (hopefully) fewer adhoc features creeping in.

      Another thing is perceptions, though. It's important to make sure that there are other parents in these places. If you're the lone 9 to 5er in a stable full of 20-somethings on the fast track to burnout, then you're going to be noticed and probably not in a positive way (I am narrowly considering the number of hours you have available to put in, of course). My anecdotal evidence, there were subtle cases of discrimination (a loaded term in the US, I know) against programmers with "other" responsbilities when it comes to doing crunch projects. Management tends to favour those who have expressed willingness to throw countless hours into a project. YMMV.

      Another thing is, some companies will actually seek to ease your parenting workload, for instance, my last place of work had a daycare facility in the campus itself, so that any employee could drop their toddlers off and pick them up at the end of the working day. It seemed to work out all right and it was only marginally more expensive than conventional daycare (I think.. I don't have any kids ;)

      Having said all of that, I think you may be surprised at how resilient kids can be about parents who are actually busy doing work some of the time. It may be an unpopular view, but so long as my parents were there some of the time, I didn't really notice the difference. Both of my parents worked (till their retirement a few years back) and I was a latchkey kid for quite a while. I think having siblings also helps :) I have 3 siblings, so it meant a lot of time playing with them :) It also helped me that I am introverted and didn't mind curling up somewhere with a book. The point is that I think your kids won't mind you occasionally staying late at work (so long as it doesn't happen frequently/regularly).

      To conclude, I agree with the parent poster, kudos on planning to spend more time with your kids.. if my former co-workers are any indication, I think that will serve to give you a much sharper focus for getting in, getting the job done ASAP and going home..

      • by Doctor O (549663) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:04PM (#9340653) Homepage Journal
        > The point is that I think your kids won't mind you
        > occasionally staying late at work (so long as it
        > doesn't happen frequently/regularly).

        I know you've written you don't have kids, but as a father whose son turns two just today and whose wife is pregnant, I can tell you that you're missing an aspect you can't know.

        I don't want to be at home with my family because I think my son might be somehow "damaged" by me not being there. He'd be just fine, he's a strong personality. I want to be at home to be with my family - be with my wife and see my son and the soon-to-come grow up. Kids grow up only once, you know, and watching videos isn't the same thing. I thought I could imagine how intense it is, but I had no idea. If you plan on getting kids sometime in the future, look forward to it! It's great. Stressful most of the time, but *very* rewarding.

        And there's something else. I personally don't need a job, I only need *money*. Working is a pointless waste of time if you look at it objectively. You only go there for the money, and overtime isn't usually paid for, at least where I work. So why spend more time there than necessary while the family has fun at home?
        • by b-baggins (610215) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:31PM (#9340829) Journal
          -I think my son might be somehow "damaged" by me not being there. He'd be just fine, he's a strong personality.-

          This is just plain wrong. Your children WILL suffer psychologically, emotionally and developmentally by not having a father around.

          I work to support my family. I don't have a family to support my work.
          • by Feanturi (99866) on Friday June 04 2004, @07:11PM (#9341146)
            Your children WILL suffer psychologically, emotionally and developmentally by not having a father around.

            Depends on the father. My father wasn't around much when I was a kid, and I would thanks the gods for that on a regular basis. Maybe I've suffered developmentally anyhow in some way, but hey, I'm sure it would have been much worse if he was around more.

      • by Tackhead (54550) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:56PM (#9341037)
        > It's important to make sure that there are other parents in these places. If you're the lone 9 to 5er in a stable full of 20-somethings on the fast track to burnout, then you're going to be noticed and probably not in a positive way (I am narrowly considering the number of hours you have available to put in, of course). My anecdotal evidence, there were subtle cases of discrimination (a loaded term in the US, I know) against programmers with "other" responsbilities when it comes to doing crunch projects.

        Dude, you just touched a nerve with that "discrimination" concept. I grok where you're coming from -- but please understand that the "discrimination" feeling cuts both ways.

        It doesn't matter whether a team is pulling 80-hour weeks or 40-hour weeks: If Paul Parenthood starts leaving work undone so he can be with Paul Jr., you just suggested that Joe stack the workplace deck with kids who can also leave work unfinished, all for the noble purpose of enabling management to shovel all the work down on those of us who don't have kids. Nice to have you out of the closet.

        I realize that's not what you meant, and it's certainly not what you (or Paul Parenthood) intends, but it's what happens.

        The common line (usually from a manager with kids) is something like "Well, we're asking you because you don't have children, you don't understand how much harder it is now that Paul has kids now, and because you don't, well, you obviously have so much more spare time than he does, well, we'd like you to do Paul's work."

        If asking Paul Parenthood to keep up his productivity is "discriminating against him because he has kids", then so is asking Sam Singleton to pick up Paul's slack when he says he can't.

        If there's any advice to the new parent here, it's to be aware that your single, childless, and/or childfree co-workers may feel just as shafted by management as you do!

        If there's a silver lining behind this cloud, it's that the friction between parents and single/childfrees is caused to lousy management, not some evilness inherent to breeders or kid-haters. The two camps don't have to hate each other -- nor should they.

        I'm lucky to work at a place where I, as a childfree employee, can say "Dude, I need to take care of Geeky Stuff [LOTR comes out, supplies for a LAN party] this afternoon", and he'll say "Go for it, I'll hold down the fort while you're gone." Likewise, my co-workers can say "Dude, I need to take care of Parental Stuff this afternoon", and I'll say "Cool, I'll hold the fort while you're out." More importantly, we're just as comfortable asking those questions in front of -- and sometimes to -- our manager.

        It's rare, but there do exist managers who are sufficiently clued to realize that as far as Sam Singleton is concerned, seeing LOTR or setting the weekend's LAN party is just as emotionally important to Sam, as setting up the kid's birthday party is to Paul Parenthood.

        If you're in management: Go thou and do likewise. For the sake of all your employees.

        • by Geekbot (641878) on Friday June 04 2004, @09:16PM (#9341862)
          That's pretty lame if you or someone else has to take it out on their co-workers for having the balls to say that they have a life.
          It's management's problem if they can't adequately staff the workplace. If you are choosing to work a bunch of overtime hours to impress Supervisor Schmuck that's up to you. But it's not fair to blame that on the guy who can stick up for himself and tell management that their family comes first.
          If your project requires people to pick up co-workers overtime on top of their own in order to meet deadlines, either it is understaffed or mismanaged. By sticking up for yourselves instead of giving into management it will leave them in a position to either manage their project better or re-evaluate their profit margins on the project. On the other hand, they could replace you with someone who will put in a bunch of overtime hours and burn themselves out in 5 years.
        • by cheezit (133765) on Friday June 04 2004, @09:23PM (#9341892) Homepage
          Every hour you are working beyond Paul Parenthood is *your* choice. If your boss allows his/her expectations to be colored by knowledge of personal commitments (not requiring flexibility, but total contribution of effort), they are a bad boss.

          If you allow your time be sucked away because you don't have a hard commitment that pulls you away...don't blame those who can't make the same choice.

          I have 3 year old twins, a father first and a coder second, and I don't work ridiculous hours. But you know what? I actually work when I am there. It's amazing how productive a regular day is when you don't spend your time at the watercooler or bitching about their workload (like many around me). I'm happy to look hyperproductive when fellow team members put in more hours with less visible results.
        • by poppycock (231161) on Friday June 04 2004, @09:30PM (#9341913)
          If asking Paul Parenthood to keep up his productivity is "discriminating against him because he has kids", then so is asking Sam Singleton to pick up Paul's slack when he says he can't.

          True enough. A competent manager should strive to allocate work fairly according to professional -- not personal -- concerns. Though a competent manager also must realize that people are humans, and their personal life infringes on their professional life (and vice versa).

          as far as Sam Singleton is concerned, seeing LOTR or setting the weekend's LAN party is just as emotionally important to Sam, as setting up the kid's birthday party is to Paul Parenthood.

          Poppycock! As a father and a manger, as well as a dyed in the wool geek, I can tell you without equivocation that the emotional attachment you may feel to LOTR is in no way comparable to the emotional connection a parent has with his or her children. Parents quit jobs routinely to spend time with their children. I would die for my daughter. If your child is seriously ill, functioning normally enters the realm of the courageous.

          There are social and personal consequences involved if you neglect your parenting responsibilities. If you miss the opening of LOTR, who gives a fuck?

    • by bigman2003 (671309) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:45PM (#9340489) Homepage
      True dat-

      I work at a university, and my pay is okay, but not great.

      We don't have deadlines, and I don't have a pager. I do check my systems to make sure they are running on the weekends, but that is for my own reasons, not my bosses. (I believe I have come in about 4 times on the weekend in the past 5 years to clear up a problem, and each time my boss says "you know you didn't have to do that")

      I was offered a job at an outside company, with a 50% pay increase. My bonuses would be tied to the hours I billed to a client. Anything above 35 hours a week (billed) I would have been paid double-time. I could have easily doubled my salary by putting in some extra hours each week.

      I declined the job and I have not regretted that decision at all. I spend plenty of time with my family (15 holidays/year, 12 sick days, and 3 weeks of vacation a year) and I'm not going to get an ulcer.

      You would have to pay me 10 times what I make now to get me to consider switching over to a high-pressure commercial situation. My priorities are quality of LIFE, not quality of STUFF.
    • I've been a software developer for 20+ years, and a father for 18. I've worked at startups and big companies both, and never had any major conflicts.

      My basic rule for surviving is simple: refuse to be exploited. I work very little overtime, and I never work on weekends (except when there's a very serious problem, which happens almost never). My career has gone quite well, and I've actually never been accused of being a slacker or anything like that (probably because I produce a lot).

      Just say no to routine overtime; if you're a good worker during your 40-hour weeks, no sane boss would make a big deal about you wanting to have a life outside of work. If your boss does make a big deal about it, look for another job (or just ignore the unreasonable requests and keep doing good work; you'll probably outlast the bad bosses if you're a good worker).

      By the way, I've found that hourly contracting is actually a good way to avoid unreasonable requests for overtime. If they ask you to stay late, just point out that it's costing them $75/hour extra (or whatever) and they'll probably back off.

        • So lemme guess - either your kids are old enough to sleep without waking up every half hour asking for mommy or daddy, or you just don't sleep at all. Or both.

          That doesn't have to be that old... mine was sleeping 6-8 hours a night from about three months old on. Nowadays, now that he's not taking naps, he sleeps 11-12 hours straight. My husband and I alternate on putting-to-bed duty, so at 8 or 8:30 I get to take off my Mommy hat and put on my Perl coder hat.
  • by th1ckasabr1ck (752151) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:22PM (#9340247)
    Am I missing something?

    I'd think that a fairly structured, stable, relatively high-paying job is perfect for family life.

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Yes, you are missing something.

      There's more to family life than having a high regular income.

      I often don't see my kids except to say goodnight to them when I come in from work. That's hardly ideal.

    • by Skyshadow (508) * on Friday June 04 2004, @05:28PM (#9340303) Homepage
      Bringing home good money is important, but there's a lot more to parenting. You gotta be there for those Saturday softball games and Thursday night recitals. You gotta have time for the family, and you gotta be able to make it when you say you're going to.

      This disqualifies a certain sector of the development industry where the next release of X product will determine the ongoing fate of the company, and so everything else goes out the window as you try to meet some deadline.

      Absent parents cause all sorts of problems -- kids with substance abuse issues, teen parents, low self-esteem... Trust me: I went to a private high school where a fair number of the kids were from rich up-and-coiming families, and a disproportionate number of them were burnouts or had serious problems.

      No job and no amount of money is worth seeing your kids slide down the tubes. I'd rather be broke with well-adjusted successful kids than be a millionaire with my kid in rehab.

    • by KalvinB (205500) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:33PM (#9340349) Homepage
      the hours.

      If you can't be home on a regular basis (more than a few times a week, at at least one whole day free) at a reasonable time (in time for dinner or sooner) and be willing to spend quality time with your kid you need to find a new job or expect to not be much of an important part of your kid's life.

      What job you're working doesn't matter. It's the hours you work. The hours you are home. And the ability to bond with your kid effectivly within the time you have.

      Ben
    • by BrookHarty (9119) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:33PM (#9340357) Homepage Journal
      Wow, depends on what High Paying is. If its work a few years and quit then its worth it. If its working 80 hours a week for 52 weeks a year, expect your wife to take the kids an leave.

      Also expect to get burnt out.

      We have the reverse problem, they moved us from hourly to salary to save money, then expected the same 80 hour weeks. Most people where working the 80 hours for OT, now that they left the company, the work load increased, and PHB want us to do the job with fewer people.

      I said, I'm not working another 20 hour day. Stood my ground and they hired some contracters. Only thing they could do was fire me, and man I need a vacation.

      Sometimes spending time with the wife is more important than being single and rich. (Or broke if you have kids and paying child support)
      • by slickwillie (34689) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:34PM (#9340364)
        I remember when my kids were infants, everyone warned us of the "terrible twos", meaning that when the became two years old they would be hard to manage.

        What they didn't mention was that things would only get worse from there.
  • Hrm... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Trillan (597339) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:23PM (#9340258) Homepage Journal

    I'm not a parent myself (yet), but the company I'm working for has a lot of coders who are parents. It doesn't seem to cause too much trouble for them, as long as management is reasonable on estimates (which is usually the case).

    I'll see if I can draw their attention to this article, though.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 04 2004, @05:23PM (#9340259)
    ... for the first 3 years:, but then my kid learned vb and started writing windows security patches.

    • Re:It was tough (Score:5, Insightful)

      by XaXXon (202882) <xaxxon AT gmail DOT com> on Friday June 04 2004, @05:41PM (#9340444) Homepage
      Sorry, but I'm gunna have to call the cops. Letting your kids learn VB is obvious neglect. You should have beaten the tar out of him when he installed Visual Studio -- even if he wanted to do C++. You have to nip this in the bud.
      • by brer_rabbit (195413) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:08PM (#9340681) Journal
        Sorry, but I'm gunna have to call the cops. Letting your kids learn VB is obvious neglect. You should have beaten the tar out of him when he installed Visual Studio -- even if he wanted to do C++.

        I doubt you could beat the tar out of Visual Studio, I don't think Microsoft have picked up the .tar.gz way of doing things.

      • by Wakkow (52585) * on Friday June 04 2004, @07:53PM (#9341433) Homepage
        "You should have beaten the tar out of him"

        Don't you mean .cab?
    • Re:It was tough (Score:5, Interesting)

      by techsoldaten (309296) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:48PM (#9340522) Homepage Journal
      My daughter (who is 8) has her own blog. She was concerned about security, articulated to me a permissions system she would like to implement, and we wrote that system together.

      Surprisingly enough, I brought that system to work with me today and we are using an expanded version of it for an enterprise system.

      M
        • by techsoldaten (309296) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:59PM (#9341063) Homepage Journal
          I'm doing my best, but the possibility that a boy may try to touch her someday persists. For my part, aside from educating her in how to write code, I am also investing in dental braces, science camp, violin lessons, tae kwon do school, and tutors in several languages. I plan on making this girl so smart and self-confident she will be 21 before any of that stuff happens.

          M
  • Try a non-profit (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PIPBoy3000 (619296) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:25PM (#9340266)
    I work for a large healthcare organization, writing custom software for the needs they have. There are occasional deadlines, but the pace is much more relaxed than for a for-profit organization. The work is interesting and meaningful.

    In fact, I took off before lunch today to attend my son's preschool graduation. To put it in geek terms, my current job is so good, I turned down an offer from Bioware making games for a living.
    • by queequeg1 (180099) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:50PM (#9340531)
      I also worked for a large non-profit health care company (as an attorney, not a programmer, but the observations are still applicable) and I'll tell you that the sisters could drive a harder bargain business-wise than many MBAs. There was nothing more relaxed about that work environment compared to a for-profit corporation. Plus, you always had to worry about your increased chances of going to hell if you forgot to put the cover sheets on your memos.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 04 2004, @05:26PM (#9340277)
    Programming and families are quite compatible. Lots of folks work basic "9-to-5" jobs that have standard in and out times.

    Sure there may well be crunch times, but they SHOULD be rare and not "normal".

    It's all a matter of expectations by you, your employer and your family. Get them all set up straight up front.

    Administrators typically have worse issues, because they tend to have to do things "off-hours".

  • by gfxguy (98788) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:26PM (#9340283)
    Life is a series of choices, you have to choose your priorities.

    I've been programming professionaly (i.e. not including school) for ten years now. My son is 5 and my daughter is 2.5, and I love them more than anything.

    Sometimes I have to work late, but it's very infrequent. I go into work very early so that I can come home early and not miss evenings with them. Sometimes I telecommute so that I can take an hour and go to a program at one of my children's schools.

    I do get called after hours and on weekends, but it's extremely rare.

    If you've been working in a "slave labor" job where you constantly work late, on weekends, and have no free time, then see line one.
  • nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)

    by selderrr (523988) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:27PM (#9340292) Journal
    I have 3 kids, and I'm 32. They take a lot of your time, but if you have basic planning skills, that is no problem at all. Just consider 16:00 - 20:00 to be a no-work zone. As long as you don't PLAN to do any work then, you'll be fine. However, if you plan to work all the time, then prepare to get frustrated. After 20:00, they sleep, and you can code since going out every evening is a big nono with kids at home (babysitters are damd expensive !)

    If you can manage a wife for 5 years, you sure as hell can manage a kid : if you can not plan free time from work with your SO, then forget about kids.
  • by Chairboy (88841) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:28PM (#9340301) Homepage
    The two careers are completely compatible, you just need to set expectations ahead of time.

    Tell your co-workers that you have a family and that they'll always come first. Let your boss know that you're willing to go the extra mile when you're needed, you're just counting on him/her to use really clear judgement about when to have you working late or weekends. You'd be surprised how reasonable someone can be if you actually talk about this with them.

    Finally, offer to fill in occasional gaps by working at home. When I had my first kid and I started getting antsy, my boss suggested that I work from home occasional Fridays. It was a small thing, and I'm careful not to betray the trust inherent in it, but it definately helps.

    Software development has occasional deathmarches, but it also has unprecedented flexibility other times of the year.
  • by autopr0n (534291) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:28PM (#9340305) Homepage Journal
    Thinking back on all the software development groups I've been in, it seems most of the coders were not parents, and the coders that were parents seemed to have trouble with things like dealing with unplanned death marches and not being there for their family.

    Just because it's possible to have "unplanned death marches." in the software world doesn't meant that you should have too. In fact, if you do it'll probably mean that the software you write won't be adequately tested before it's deployed.

    Anyway, you shouldn't have to stand for that crap. If you're team is slipping behind deadlines, it's the managers fault, not yours. Asking you to sacrifice your social/family life because of someone else's fuckups is ridiculous.
    • by demachina (71715) on Friday June 04 2004, @06:21PM (#9340765)
      I'm pretty confident you've never worked in a place that develops real, big commercial software, especially a version 1, or if you did you didn't last very long. Death marches are a near inevitability unless the software you are developing is trivial stupid or your company is willing to ship buggy software.

      You could dream the product is going to be perfectly engineered and the bug count is going to taper off perfectly on schedule (only time I've seen this happen is when the management team just futures enough bugs every night to keep the slopes on their bug graphs on projections. They usually start supressing tracking of futured bugs at the same time.

      If you think manager take the bullet for missed schedules you are working on a different planet than me. If the manager sees his project's timeline slipping past then end of a make or break quarter he is going to put you on a death march and you are going to march or get laid off at the next opportunity. If you are lucky the manager will give you time off after you ship equal to the extra time you were forced to work though this is usually a small fraction of the amount of extra time you probably did work. You might get a little stock or a bonus if the product is successful. Meanwhile the manager and the executive team who were probably missing in action most of the late nights and weekends, probably busy partying, will get a shit load of options and huge bonuses.

      Welcome to capitalism, ain't it grand.
      • by eraserewind (446891) on Friday June 04 2004, @08:49PM (#9341728)
        Well, I have worked in plces that develop big commercial software, and I agree 100% with the grandparent.

        There is almost no excuse for death march projects in modern software development. It is just poor management and/or a team not experienced enough to tell management that they don't know what the hell they are doing (in a diplomatic way naturally).
  • It's easy (Score:3, Informative)

    by bahamat (187909) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:30PM (#9340327) Homepage
    Just write a UNIX compatible OS like Linus did. He's got 3 kids and handles it very well.
  • by JasonEngel (757582) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:31PM (#9340332)
    Being an admin with oncall duty, second and third level help desk chores, and app coding, being a married man with two kids has been easy. At least, after you get accustomed to Rule Number 1:

    Family First.

    If your employer can't handle your family obligations, then Family First says you get a new employer who can.

    If you are on a project that suddenly requires a lot of work, but your child is sick, then Family First says you take care of your child first then do whatever you can to help out with the project second (if that means late nights, it means late nights, if it means burdening your coworkers then burden them).

    Maybe I am fortunate, but I have always worked for companies and/or managers that understand the Family First rule, though that might be because all but one of them had kids, too (the only mgr I had who did not have kids was a complete jerk anyway, and he was soon fired for it).

  • I coded in C/C++ for about 5 years. Learned some perl, php, and python too. More recently, I've been a sysadmin for 8+ years, but I still do a lot of coding... and some DBA work... and I consultant on the side cause my wife doesn't work and my salary, even almost 12 years of experience later makes for a decent life, but not the best one. Plus I've been laid off enough that consulting is my little "what if" plan. My first kid came about 2 years into my coding career. I have three now... ages 12, 10, and 3. When it all comes down to it... its all about time. I work Mon-Fri from 9am to 6pm. Mon, Wed, & Thur nights, I code and other stuff from 9pm to midnight. Tues and Fri, I don't do anything unless emergency requires that I do. Then on Saturday from 7am to noon, I work more. So I get my fulltime salary, another 10 to 15 hours of side work a week, but I get to have dinner with my family every night. I get every evening with them and most of the weekend. Having tried different combinations, this is the only schedule that allowed everything to happen without sacrificing something... either the boy's hockey game, or the wife, etc. Plus, being salaried, I can take a morning or afternoon off when the wife has to take a kid to the doctor or dentist. And with three weeks of vacation a year, I enjoy two weeks off and with the family, and one week I spend consulting full time for a nice little check that gets saved until November when we go Xmas shopping with it. For me its all about priorities and schedules and knowing when to turn the cell phone off and when to leave the PDA at home.
  • by frodriguez (527375) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:32PM (#9340342)
    I am a father of 5 children and have been a programmer for nine years. All of my programming career I have worked at a University. The pay is not great but the benefits are awesome for a family man. I get 6 weeks off when the baby is born, 4 weeks vacation a year from day 1. Great Medical and Dental for your family. No overtime or beepers. So I have the time to devote to my family. They even gave me a below rate mortgage to purchase my house.
  • As a Single Father (Score:3, Interesting)

    by techsoldaten (309296) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:33PM (#9340355) Homepage Journal
    As a single father, I have been taking care of my daughter on my own for over 7 years now. I often think I could not take care of her by myself were it not for my job as a developer.

    The biggest advantage has been in terms of salary, which has allowed me to afford private schools, material things and education which otherwise would have been hard to afford. I make more even than some of my friends in the banking industry, although their long term salary prospects are probably higher than my own.

    The ability to work from home has been the second largest advantage. There have been days my daughter has been sick or on vacation where I could not physically be at work but have remained productive. Having a cable modem has made it so I am available to write code 24x7 and not be tied to a desk somewhere. Along with this goes the possibility of freelancing, which I have often had to do when the car breaks, an unexpected bill comes up, or when I just feel like taking a vacation.

    The third biggest advantage is the social aspects of having a child. The relationships I have developed with other parents at my daughter's school have led to endless opportunities as a programmer, and I actually once got a job through another parent.

    The bottom line is having a child is no shopstopper, even in terms of massive work schedules. I can work all day, go home and relax for four hours with the child until it is time for bed, then stay up and write code all night if I feel like. The fact is coding and parenting have many similarities - you are constantly issuing instructions and trying to find out why they are not producing the expected results.

    M
  • by MythoBeast (54294) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:36PM (#9340386) Homepage Journal
    I've been programming for about 13 years now, the last three of them as a parent. This has been compounded by the fact that my wife is even less of a stay-at-home mom than I am a stay-at-home dad. The truth is that it's workable, if somewhat demanding. Here are a few suggestions:

    1. Tagteam the kids. Take turns keeping them distracted while the other one gets stuff done. This gets much easier after they start to walk, although you REALLY have to childproof your home if you're going to get any programming done while they're keeping themselves busy.

    2. If your boss would fire you over putting your family over your job, you need to find a different boss. As long as it isn't a continual parade of parental interruptions, most employers are entirely understanding when family life interrupts.

    3. Encourage your employer to use a better management technique (for instance Scrum), which doesn't encourage forced death marches to make up for bad planning. Programming is a demanding field, but if your employer expects you to wreck your health over a deadline, then they're doing something wrong, not you.

    4. Don't expect to be a perfect parent. Perfect parents don't really exist because parenting is always a tradeoff between overmanaging your children (in which case they don't learn) and letting them run too freely (in which case they get hurt). If you have ANYTHING to do besides parenting then you will have to juggle that priority in with that balancing act. If you don't have anything to do besides parenting, then it isn't likely that you'll have the perspective necessary to make healthy decisions.

    On the other hand, programming trains you for parenting pretty well. The long sleepless nights, the time spent explaining very simple things to really stoopid people, and the ability to tune out the rest of the world all really help when dealing with children.

  • by RyLaN (608672) <satH4n.gmail@com> on Friday June 04 2004, @05:40PM (#9340430) Homepage
    My father used to commute 2-3 days out of the week, and work at home the remainder. Now, he works at home full time - the hope being that more time is available for my siblings and I.

    However, I think this is *not* the way to go. Ever since Dad has been able to walk 20 feet to his office, he has left it later and later. My advice would be to leave your work as far away from your kids as is possible.

    On a seperate note, you will do wonders for your childrens' egos if you "don't notice" them ARP sniffing on you... (Hi, Dad! :-))
  • by Maury Markowitz (452832) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:40PM (#9340436) Homepage
    What, do you think coding is different than any other job? How about all those 18th century factory workers at Bolton's button-polishing plants who worked 12 hours a day (or more) and had families of 8? Get over yourself.

    Here's how you do it: you go home at five. Every day, period. Wave goodbye to the boss, and say "well I'm off to see the kid". When they say "crunch time", say "see you". When they say "death march" , say "see you".

    I told the boss I wasn't coming in till noon twice a week so I could have the kid mornings. Moan, whine, bitch... ok, see you at noon.

    You will not lose your job. You will not lose your bonus. You might get a raise, and maybe even a promotion. If you're so insecure at your job that going home at 5 loses it for you, you lost it already.

    Face it, you work long hours because you want to. Don't tell me different, I was there too. With a kid you just won't want to any more, so you won't. That's all there is to it.
  • by iabervon (1971) on Friday June 04 2004, @05:45PM (#9340485) Homepage Journal
    If management is smart enough to plan ahead at all, the marathon coding sessions will be rare and predictable. (Release on this date means that the week two weeks previous will be long hours, and the week before will be chaotic; but you know this two months in advance). If you don't know when your releases will be, management is clearly insane and likely to be ineffective.

    As far as long hours, I'm firmly convinced that no good software design gets done while someone is at work. All of the major breakthroughs are made while you're asleep. The only reason to go to work is to type them in and tell people about them. Of course, you'll make some progress on things you're not working directly on, so a 90-hour week once in a while (generally at the last minute before the testing cycle) is good to clean out all the bright ideas you don't know you've had. But a 90-hour week severely cuts into the actually generation of insight, so it kills the next week or two of work (which may be okay, if your next week or two is mostly sitting around waiting for bug reports). If you're doing regular 90-hour weeks, you're working part time and have an extra fulltime job staring mindlessly at a computer.
  • by jdz (105853) on Friday June 04 2004, @11:58PM (#9342628)
    I'm a software engineer. The demands of the job vary- at times, I've been called upon to put in 60+ stressful hours every week. At times, ~40 non-stressful hours has been plenty.

    Bear in mind that your employer does not necessarily have your best interests in mind. This isn't a knock at any current or past employer of mine, or of anyone else. It's simply a fact- they will always welcome you working more hours (salaried folks, you know what I'm talking about). It's up to you to set limits. Many employers will respect those limits. They may limit your career advancement (either in terms or raises, or promotions, or both) - keep that in mind, but set priorities. How important is your family versus your current (or potential future) rewards at work? If you don't think that this is a difficult question, you may not be thinking hard enough.

    In December of 2002, I found myself stressing out that I was spending too much time at work (over the last ~2 years) and not enough time at home. I kept thinking, "I must do something about this soon!"

    At that time, my step-daughter took her own life. She was going through a lot of troubles. The brutal truth of the matter is that I was spending so much time and energy at work that I was often not home, and when I was, I was not interacting much with my wife or step-daughter.

    I believe that my inattention and lack of commitment to my family at that time was a primary contributor to that situation. I don't believe that it was the sole cause, but I do believe that it was a primary factor. I'll never know for sure. No one will.

    Had I quit my job at that time, I would have sacrificed my family's primary source of income. We could not have paid our bills, including the mortgage on our house. We'dve lost our home, our car, and our livelihoods. Clearly, that would not have been a good situation.

    I believe that I could have found a better balance than the one that I did.

    All I can do for others is suggest that they seek a balance.

    While I'm on the soapbox (I very rarely post on slashdot), I'll also mention that she was on Accutane. I have no evidence that this was a direct cause of what happened, but I firmly believe it to be true. If you have children, I strongly encourage you to learn more about accuatane before you allow them to consume it. Check the PDR, periodicals, the web, or whatever other resources that you feel comfortable with. Also, ask yourself the same question that I (implicitly) encourage you to ask above: Is this issue worth it? Is your child's life/well-being worth this risk?