Information Preservation and Data Havens? 413
tiltowait asks: "An interesting story on LISNews.com this morning about savvy U.S. students photocopying textbooks in Mexico then returning them for refunds got me thinking about data havens. There's already few places on the web where you can exploit countries having different copyright durations and eligibility. On the flip side, there's restrictions such as broadcast blackouts and country-wide firewalls. But just as the rich can use of international tax loopholes and in light of the recent file-sharing victory, are there any projects out there, beyond the P2P networks, to distribute possibly-protected information by any means necessary? For example, your company may already outsource labor, but what about an off-site backup in case of an FBI raid?"
Off-site backup (Score:5, Funny)
It's crap (Score:5, Insightful)
But here's where I call bullshit...Why does there need to be a new edition every two-plus years on subjects that do not change at all? What new discoveries come in math? Do derivatives change at all? How bout sine and cosine? Hmm?
Anybody have an answer?
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the whole issue of new textbooks coming out constantly, with nothing new, that is indeed BS. Since the laws of math are going to be the same (except maybe at the very highest levels of math where things are still being discovered), it's pointless and stupid to keep printing out new books and charging extremely high pric
Re:It's crap (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, these days a ton of textbooks come with these stupid "learning aid" CDs and access to super-secret "study aid" websites to justify jacking up the price by another 50 bucks.
Most of the time, comparing two editions of the same textbook side by side reveals very little differences. Often they'll change the order of the exercises in the book, without actually changing any of them, just so you'll have to have the new edition or you'll end up doing the wrong problems for homework.
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's crap (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Informative)
One of my college professors with an overabundance of ethics made it a point to hand out, in cash, his $4 royalty back to each student who purchased his book.
While this would be ripe for abuse in larger classes (i.e. get in line multiple times) a similar arrangement would be simple to reach with the bookstore where the book simply gets sold for less than normal, and it comes out of the professor's royalties.
An even better approach would be to contribu
Re:It's crap (Score:4, Informative)
Re:It's crap (Score:5, Informative)
PS. If you run your own linux box, set up a mediawiki on it. I use mine for doing research, homework and keeping course notes. Very nice!
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Informative)
My wiki is a great place for me to keep track of stuff that is probably not that interesting to most people.
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's crap (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Funny)
You singlehandedly increased the cost of my education by about $5k.
(the term "YOU" in this context is to be construed as the general "you" and indicating a hypothetical person or class of persons exhibiting the behavior described in parent post. Under no circumstances should this post be construed as being directly referring to any specific individual, except in the case where they really did o
Offtopic... (Score:5, Interesting)
books (Score:5, Insightful)
many students spend >$350 per semester in order to rent the "proper" edition of a book that has not had any significant changes made to it in years, if ever. after 3 months the students "sell" the books back to the bookstore for around 1/4 what they paid, so the books can be put on the shelf for next semester, assuming there isn't a new edition required for the class.
people tolerate it because "college is important" and you "learn valuable life skills".
Re:books (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:books (Score:3, Interesting)
Specifically, in the past year I've hauled down my book
your post is NOT"Offtopic", but is very relevant (Score:4, Insightful)
Free market, my ass....
Re:your post is NOT"Offtopic", but is very relevan (Score:3, Interesting)
Advice more for arts than science majors (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, for science/eng majors, textbook buying is a huge pain, but for people like
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Insightful)
The head of my computer science department wrote a very nice text on Unix programming that I still have on my bookshelf today - and refer to on various occaisions.
Granted - it was expensive to buy initially (and used at that).
Actually I have most of my core CS books, as well as my English style guides (and several copies of Strunk & White that I managed to collect and squirrel away for later treasure picking).
On the other hand, I don't have any of my Math books - and only kept one His
Re:It's crap (Score:2)
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's crap (Score:2, Interesting)
Insightfull????? More like TROLL! I think you will find there are many journals dedicated to publishing new "discoveries" in mathematics. You argument smacks of ignorance.
As for "new editions", Noone has to buy any such thing. A second hand relatively modern edition of a textbook will suffice in many cases.
That's not the point (Score:2)
Re:It's crap (Score:5, Insightful)
Plenty of things are being discovered in mathematics, but they are all at a high enough level that nobody writes widely-distributed textbooks about them. There haven't been a whole lot of advancements that have radically changed the way Calculus I is taught.
Re:It's crap (Score:2)
As for "new editions", Noone has to buy any such thing. A second hand relatively modern edition of a textbook will suffice in many cases.
The grandparent poster specifically excluded higher level courses from his point. There's very little from any journal that's going to make it into a first year maths text, yet they get new editions
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's crap (Score:2)
I'd rather have the book than a stack of photocopies, but better yet is buying only one book for a group of people taking the same subject. One of my friends spent $950 for the books that were on the "required" list last semester. I spent about $150 and didn't suffer for it.
What about E-books? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's crap (Score:4, Insightful)
The RIAA and MPAA have time and time again told us that it isn't about right and wrong, it's about the law. In a place where it's not illegal to photocopy a text book, there is no legal dilemma. Why bring ethics into it?
LK
Re:It's crap (Score:4, Insightful)
Several reasons:
- The publishers use it to kill off the used book market.
- Accrediting organizations won't let schools use old textbooks, even for something like freshman calculus that isn't changing rapidly.
- Some profs like it, because, e.g., frat houses will build up files of homework solutions.
Of these, #1 is the most important, as demonstrated by the fact that publishers do it more often than is required by accreditation. #3 is the least important, as demonstrated by the fact that most profs I know (I teach at a community college) sympathize with students who are getting ripped off by not being able to buy used books, and very few care about the solution files.But putting that issue aside, this is one of the lamest Ask Slashdot questions forever. What the poster is saying is, "I don't want to buy the book, and I also want someone else to pay to store my data for me, and I also want someone else to take the risks associated with my illegal actions, and I'm also too lazy to research the question myself."
Re:It's crap (Score:3)
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Insightful)
For a market to be at its most efficient, the price and marginal cost should be the same. There is real economic loss when this is not the case, whic
Re:It's crap (Score:2)
We also have those Title 17 stickers on them, which disavow the library if you do anything naughty with them.
Allegations of price fixing [lisnews.com] by textbook companies are nothing new.
Re:It's crap (Score:3, Informative)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You are not being denied a life saving drug because you cannot afford it...its a textbook not medicine, food, shelter, or clothing. If 80 dollars is the market price then that is what you must pay. If you dont want to pay that much then
not really needed if you're a multinational (Score:3, Interesting)
One word: SEALAND (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:One word: SEALAND (Score:2)
Re:not really needed if you're a multinational (Score:2)
Re:not really needed if you're a multinational (Score:3, Interesting)
Partitioning data for k locations (Score:3, Interesting)
Let F be the file we want to encrypt, and spread over k juristictions, so that all k encrypted files are needed to decrypt F.
1. Create k-1 random files the same size as F, and call them X1,X2,...,Xk-1.
2. Create another file Xk by assigning the nth bit of Xn to 1 if an odd number of ones existed in the nth bit over all the files, and put a zero otherwise.
3. For every bit of Xk, if it differs from the nth
Appropriate? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Appropriate? (Score:2)
The only legitimate, as in morally correct, reason I could think of to store data offshore would be to protect information such as revolutionary websites from totalitarian regimes
Re:Appropriate? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bear in mind that the FBI often confiscates things from people who are not party to the crimes being investigated. It's called "evidence." Sometimes evidence is in the hands of third parties.
The FBI also often confiscates things without ever actually filing a charge. You may or may not ever get your drives back, but if you do it's likely to take a few years.
If you are charged with a crime it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to realize that having copies could be a critical element in preparing your defense.
Back up early. Back up often. Back up not only off site, but off the radar.
KFG
i'm anal-retentive about data backup (Score:5, Interesting)
i always wondered about the constitutionality of that... it's not really MY email, even though, for all practical purposes, the content of it is more important to me than my company (records of who said what to whom, my ideas, my code, etc.)
we live in a day and age where corporate rights encroach on individual rights more and more
i think we should all do our best to fight that, in big ways and small
walking out with "corporate intellectual property" on my wrist is my way of doing that
Depends on the nature of the e-mails (Score:3, Informative)
Among the restrictions of the clause, there is one that specifically mentions theft of company information and not directly soliciting any of the company's clients for a period of time.
If you are in a sales position, taking the archives could represent theft of company data, which would violate privacy laws.
If you are in a customer service position, taking the archives could also represent theft of confidential infor
you have a lot of valid concerns there (Score:2, Insightful)
not once do you consider the rights and exposure of the individual
and that's the problem, as i see it, and as i think you fail to grasp
how am i to defend myself from unfair accusations without a backup of my communications? how am i to work in an environment where the corporation has claims on not only the whole of my production, but also any production i might do or any potential for production in any ideas i may have?
you can say
Re:Depends on the nature of the e-mails (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not because something is written in a contract, it can be enforced in a court of law. Non-compete clauses, for example, usually don't fare very well in California.
Re:i'm anal-retentive about data backup (Score:2)
Off-Shore Network Storage? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Off-Shore Network Storage? (Score:5, Funny)
What? Their proxy failed?
Re:Off-Shore Network Storage? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Off-Shore Network Storage? (Score:2)
Off-Shore Company Info Storage? (Score:3, Insightful)
I got assigned to back up all the hard disks once a week. One day I suggested to my boss that we make an extra back-up and send it to our English affiliate. My reasoning was that with all the:
1) Earthquakes - There was a 7.2 a few years before centered a few miles away. I remember steel tables bouncing several feet in the air off a concrete floor in the warehouse. There was a 7.4 a few months eariler in L.A
Re:Off-Shore Network Storage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Grr, that thought always gets my goat. The only thing that changed was that the US got it's first taste of what it was like to be attacked at home by a foreign aggressor. It sucks. It makes you angry. It makes you hate the people who did it. The rest of us have been dealing with it for centuries. Get over it. Your solution is part of the problem.
The Iraqi's feel no different by the way. If your leaders are acting suprised by the current outcome, they are either grossly incompitent, ignorant of history, or really don't give a toss about the future of Iraq. An occupying force is only ever welcome in any country when it is dispelling another occupying force.
Re:Off-Shore Network Storage? (Score:4, Insightful)
Probably all three.
You mistake what I mean when I say "9/11 changed everything".
What changed is; now American leaders have an excuse, plausible to American voters, to impose fascism. That's what changed on 9/11.
Sealand (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Sealand (Score:4, Informative)
Reading HavenCo's User Policy is like a joke.
Theres no protection at all, everything you do is public, and the best part:
If a customer is found to have violated the AUP, HavenCo reserves the right to take appropriate action, possibly including permanent filters on a customer's network connection (inbound/outbound mail and web), disconnection, and recovery of costs related to the AUP investigation from the customer prior to return of customer equipment or remaining credit balance. HavenCo also may turn over the results of an AUP violation investigation to law enforcement, other network administrators, or others.
Would you give your sensitive data to them?
Re:Sealand (Score:5, Insightful)
All that says is that if you host child pornography, they will report you to the proper people and give them your AUP-violating material. That's it.
As long as your sensitive data isn't child porn, you'll be fine.
One word. (Score:5, Insightful)
Easily intercepted (Score:2, Insightful)
So the night before raid, while you're happily doing a off-site backup, another copy has been acquired by FBI.
Re:Easily intercepted (Score:2)
So you use the previos days backup then. The point is to have a backup available to you, not to prevent the FBI from getting a copy. If they sieze your computer it doesn't matter if they have a copy of your backup. The out of country backup is there so that you can get y
Reminds me... (Score:4, Interesting)
The copyright laws there are pretty much non-existant.
For example you can purchase a jacket or article of clothing, and they will embroider it with just about anything you want, including emblems/logos that in America are Trademarked (Starter, Nike, etc).
You can also buy fake oakley sunglasses (AKA Foaklies/Oakies) in many parts of the world for $5 a pop.
The rest of the world doesn't always play by America's rules. But we're working on that.
Re:Reminds me... (Score:2)
Reminds me of New York City. I can buy rip off sunglasses everywhere, and its not terribly hard to find shopes that will put anything you want on an article of clothing.
But South Korea is coming around to the US point of view as much because they are increasingly not the low cost source, they are making their own movies now, writing software, and innovating technologies. Sure there is some pressure, but its not that effective in reality.
Re:Reminds me... (Score:2)
Canal Street, Manhattan - where NY/NJ/CT residents go for their counterfeit goods.
Re:Reminds me... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the American way.
Copying books in Mexico? (Score:4, Interesting)
Plus, going to Mexico isn't all that cost-effective. I'm betting you can find someone who will run anything through his copier as long as you pay him as easily in the USA as in anywhere in the world.
Re:Copying books in Mexico? (Score:2)
Copying Textbooks (Score:2, Interesting)
I remember I took a class in Emperical Methods. The text book was 150 dollars and was very poorly translated from Spanish to Engl
Re:Copying Textbooks (Score:2)
2) The few hospitals I've interacted with (Including my current employer) do offsite backups for disaster recovery, but that's not the same as outsourcing the data. Any corporation/entity with critical data would do the same.
With that said, I don't think this is the same thing though. With the offsite backup of the data from the PACS (Which, for anyone not familiar is any Medical Imaging you get done at a hospital. I.e. X-Rays, CT, MRI, Ultrasound, Mammography, etc...) the last thing you w
Raid? (Score:4, Insightful)
Off-site backups are good for other things, such as preparing for natural disasters, fires, etc...
Re:Raid? (Score:2)
Re:Raid? (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the cutest I've seen was RAID5 over network block device (encrypted) with the disks all in different legal jurisdictions.
Maybe not (Score:3, Interesting)
If your business model suffers from the possibility of a FBI raid, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your business? Just a thought...
The problem is that almost every business has proprietary secrets that it can't afford to share with the general public. This usually means using encrypted communications - which may draw the suspicion of the FBI. Take for example:
Gmail (Score:2, Funny)
who needs one gig of email
how about compressing your data and keeping it in your gmail account.
how can you associate bighardnipples@gmail.com with something like say enron
Offshoring data? It's been done. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Offshoring data? It's been done. (Score:3, Informative)
fbi raid (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, with PATRIOT, the distinction is meaningless. The NSA can snoop on citizens domestically and the FBI raids people overseas.
On further thought. Location of your datastore appears meaningless. Maybe a better idea is good ol' distributed secure p2p (freenet and the like). maybe with some stegonography for good measure.
A better solution (Score:2, Insightful)
Offsite backup (Score:2, Interesting)
It occurs to me that a police raid is enabled by a warrant. The warrant is for a specific location. If they don't know where the backup data is they don't have a carte blanche to go fishing everywhere. Use your imagination.
Copying textbooks.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I brought this up at a department meeting I was a student-rep for, and the grad program chair said something like "why should we care?"
I was shocked at this attitude and lack of concern about the actions of those doing the copying. Yes, it is/was illegal and something should have been done/said about it. However, since I knew that several tenured professors didn't care, me saying anything to anyone wasn't going to change the situation. Perhaps, in hindsight, I should have alerted the book companies.
Re:Copying textbooks.... (Score:3, Insightful)
We would instead have textbook upon textbook competing for the same spot, each only slightly different, new versions each year and students being forced to buy the new version (sometime authored by the professor that gives the course) because of minor differences, li
Re:Copying textbooks.... (Score:3, Insightful)
As a young(er) Master's student in Computer Science back in 1996,
It's obvious, then, that you have no idea how much college costs the average student now. Just since 2001 we've seen the largest tuition hikes ever. What's left after tuition is usually gone after the parking fees, registration fees, technology fees (?!) and everything else they nickel-and-dime you for.
Textbooks were the last refuge for the poor student. The thrifty student could usually buy them used or barter for them and then sell them
Thwarting FBI raids (Score:2)
mexico? (Score:2, Informative)
btw do check out lisnews.com (Score:3, Informative)
- Librarians
to the Rescue [slashdot.org]
- Copyright
Crusaders Hit Schools [lisnews.com]
- Internet
Publishing Can Pay Off [slashdot.org]
- It's
Just the 'internet' Now? [slashdot.org] (story from here [lisnews.com])
- Open-ILS.org | Library software by librarians for librarians [lisnews.com]
And since a lot of IT crosses over with what librarians do nowadays, this site really is worth a look-see. Just don't feed the GNA^H^H^H Boston Public Library troll (no, really! [stormloader.com]). So sign up now while we're still on 4-digit UIDs!ps. Yes I've read Cryptonomicon [cryptonomicon.com] and have heard of what Sealand [wired.com] is doing, but was wondering about any other efforts.
Project Gutenberg Australia (Score:3, Informative)
Among other things you can download Orwell's complete works [gutenberg.net.au] and The Great Gatsby [gutenberg.net.au].
The University of Adeliade has a slicker version [adelaide.edu.au] of the same texts.
I voted with my class registration (Score:3, Interesting)
why mexico (Score:3, Interesting)
When I was a student at University of California, San Diego I had to go to Kinkos to copy some material a fundraiser for Boy's Club my fraternity was putting on. I had to wait an hour while a team of medical students copied every page of all their textbooks and monoplized all the copiers. I asked them what they were doing and was told point blank that they had just bought those books and they were copying them with the intention of returning them the next day for a refund. I pointed them to a sign hung above the copiers that had a warning about duplicating copywrited material and they just shrugged.
I really need to get my work done so I talked to a Kinko's employee and asked him why he wasn't doing anything about the fact these medical students were blatantly disregarding not only Kinko policy but the law as well. His answer: We put that sign up but we don't really care if they do it. Shocked, I asked for his manager, explained the situation, and was given the exact same reply. Yea, the sign was up there, and the students knew they were doing something illegal in full site of people with the power to stop them, but as long as Kinkos was making money they didn't care.
Netlibrary.com (Score:4, Interesting)
So what did I do?
Right.
I wrote a script that brought up each of 280+ pages sequentially and printed them to TIFF files, popping up a browser so I could perform their human-detection action when required. The I packed the whole thing into a PDF, and ran an OCR on the whole thing. Presto! The original book, in un-DRM'd form, happily readable and printable.
OK, so where is the Netlibrary script? (Score:3, Funny)
I would like to see something like this: (Score:3, Interesting)
It would be nice to find offsite backup partners on some kind of P2P network. If you have 80 gigs to back up, you need to have 80 gigs available on your system to trade off. All encrypted, so it's safe. And if you're extra paranoid, find 2 or more partners!
Yea for the students Copyright is an outdated idea (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a fundimental difference between information and physical property.
Information can generally be used simultainiously by multiple people without interfering with any of the other users of the information (we can all listen to the same song/hear the same joke/run the same program without 'taking away' from anyone else who 'uses' the information).
Physical property can generally only be utilized by a single person simultainiously (Only I can use my car/socks/toothbrush during a specific point in time).
This is a big fundamental difference.
It would be nice if information could fit into the physical-property category but it simply doesn't.
The reason it sorta-kinda did for so long was that the copying mechanisms were rather slow/expensive and the end result was always a physical item (paper-book, chemical-film, etc).
Now we have finally gotten to a point where the information is more-or-less 'free' from the physical information-carrier.
The major publishing-house people (those that make the physical items that are used to carry information) seem to be hopelessly trying to re-combine the physical with the informational. This isn't going to happen but they are currently causing a lot of harm in attempting to do so. The longer this 'transitional period' takes the longer all the misery is extended.
The really funny thing in my opinion is that so many people in general also buy into the concept of 'information as physical-type property'.
I would ask that you honestly think about the harm this idea causes vs the 'good' that results from it. I think that if you really truely honestly evaluate it you will see that these laws are causing much more harm than any good that they could ever do from this point forward.
I feel that slowly we are outgrowing this outdated idea just like we outgrew other ideas that no-longer worked in our society. The only real question is how long it will take and how much suffering will be caused during this transition.
In my opinion the actions of the students in this article are much more helpful than harmful. They help bring to light the fact that this system is hopelessly broken.
I flat out reject the argument that just because a law exists that it is somehow a 'moral imperitive' that it is followed. Laws have no inherent moral function. Morals in themselves are not objective but always subjective. Think about the laws on slavery that used to exist if you need a point of reference.
I would also like to state that I make my living as a software developer and physical-media artist. I think/read a lot about history and economic issues and consider myself very much a pro-capitalist strong-physical-property-rights sort of person. I am NOT any sort of socialist hippie tree-hugger type that doesn't understand how the world works and wants everything for free.
Re:Photocopying Textbooks? (Score:2)
Step 1: Drop off book in the copy shop, ask how much will it take.
Step 2: Do something useful during the time it is supposed to take.
Step 3: Return to copy shop to collect book, copy of book and pay for the copy.
Re:Photocopying Textbooks? (Score:2, Insightful)
Exactly what you're looking for (Score:3, Informative)
Try this [wikibooks.org]. Exactly what you mentioned. Hopefully the idea will catch on, and information hoarding will cease to cost students so much money.
Re:omg, students trying to save money? (Score:4, Informative)
Because that price in Mexico includes labor.
Basically you hand them the text book and come back a few hours later to find it all nicely copied and bound....assuming, of course, that after spending the $100 you saved on drinking Coronas and dodgy prostitutes, you are able to work out where the hell it was you left the book
Re:Other countries as money/rights launderers (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not. The people who copy textbooks in Mexico might not be breaking any Mexican laws, but the people who bring those unauthorized copies into the US certainly are breaking US law.
Circumvention might be a different matter though. Under US law you are entitled to make backups, but you are not entitled to circumvent copy protection. If the cicumvention takes place in another country, but you are entitled to own the resulting copy, then I th