Cutting Through a Wi-Fi Traffic Jam? 531
eric3xxx asks: "A week or so after Christmas, I tried to connect to my home wireless network and while I could see my access point I could not connect. After scanning the network, it turned out that there were at least twenty new access points in my apartment building (and in the surrounding buildings). Most of them had names such as 'linksys' and were all set on their respective vendors default channel (apparently a lot of people received 802.11b/g WAPs as presents). I tried changing the channel on my access point, starting at 1 and continuing through all of the channels, and none of them worked (probably since the channels overlap). In any case, I have no clear solution to this problem. I suppose I could boost the signal, however, that also increases noise. Perhaps I could convince my neighbors to put together a shared wireless network. I may just switch to 802.11a since it isn't as widely used." Has anyone else had success in configuring their APs to work in an areas of heavy wireless traffic?
You poor guy. (Score:5, Funny)
The answer is staring you in the face. You simply find one of your neighbor's Linksys routers that's wide open, and save yourself $40/month on your Comcast bill. Duh!
Re:You poor guy. (Score:2)
--
Giving away Gmail accounts [retailretreat.com]
Re:You poor guy. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:You poor guy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Install a computer that connects to many open access points, and get more than 10Mbps overall. Hopefully you can find enough (up to six non-overrlapping) to get 18Mbps or more.
Of course, the reality is that everyone in the apartment installed their own, but since they all conflict they are all using the one that doesn't conflict, and boy is that guy mad. His connections been 80% slower since he got wireless!
-Adam
Re:You poor guy. (Score:2)
Ob meme: All your APs are belong to us.
There I said it. I'll stop now.Re:You poor guy. (Score:3, Informative)
You could use NAT32 if you insist on using windows to make this work.
Question: Does anyone know what happens with port forwarding in situations like this? Can one effectively play an online game through a series of linked cable modems?
Re:You poor guy. (Score:5, Informative)
When you establish a connection, one IP address is used for the source of that connection, and after that, thats the path the traffic runs.
If you had two cable modems doing 5Mbps, you could download 2 things at 5Mbps (one using each modem) but you could not directly download 1 thing at 10Mbps (if its http or ftp, you could cheat and use the "resume" feature to have one cable modem download the first half while the second downloaded the second have, and then your specially written client would assemble these together.)
Channel bonding can be done with the appropriate hardware and ISP, but I'm willing to bet that your cable provider is both unwilling and incapable of setting this up. (With bonding, only one IP address is used, and the hardware passes traffic down whichever wire is free/not broken.)
Re:You poor guy. (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, the irony!
Re:You poor guy. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:You poor guy. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:You poor guy. (Score:2)
New paint (Score:5, Insightful)
My first thought... (Score:2, Offtopic)
Lemme get this straight... (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, here's the procedure: (1) Call your DSL or Cable provider and cancel your internet, (2) sell your wireless router on eBay, (3) choose an unsecured connection and go nuts. Simple, no? Plus it has the advantage that when the MPAA or RIAA come knocking, it won't be on your door...
Or you could install a Faraday cage in your apartment. Much more expensive, but much more cool IMO.
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:3)
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:2)
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:3, Interesting)
I still don't know if it would work if it was just like a wall or two of a structure, as opposed to completely surrounding something (whether with mes
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:3, Informative)
A Faraday cage can have holes in it, but the bigger the holes, the more RF is let through. There is a relationship between the size of the holes and the wavelengths that seep through so if you know whic
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:5, Informative)
For those following along at home, you can use Google Calculator to help you with this.
1/10th wavelength is a generally accepted mesh size for blocking RF. You can be more paranoid if you want (for example the holes in your microwave oven door are about 1/50th wavelength).
To calculate 1/10th of a wavelength at 2.45GHz, type "c/2.45GHz/10" into Google. Bam, 1.22 centimeters. Anything conductive with holes no larger than that will function as a faraday cage for RF up to that frequency (and will probably significantly attenuate RF in higher frequencies as well).
Re:Lemme get this straight... (Score:3, Informative)
Working that out with c=pi*r*2, r= (1.22/2) / pi, which gives a radius of 1.9mm / diameter of 3.8mm
So that's the maximum size of your holes.
And as the previous poster mentioned, they're doing a bit of overkill with your microwave door, with holes approximately 1/3rd of that size (1mm).
Why configure? (Score:2)
All kidding aside, I can't imagine the utter fustration of your less technically inclinded neighors, who are finding their own channels blocked.
Change Your Firmare? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:2, Interesting)
Don't forget, though, that channels 12-14 are illegal under FCC regulations in the US.
That said, my Netgear WAP/router asked me what country I was in when I first set it up. If I had been dishonest, I could have chosen a country where 12-14 are available, and used those instead (but I'm the strongest WiFi signal near my house, so it's not an issue).
And then I've got some Lucent WaveLAN Orinoco cards that I've hacked to support all 14 channels, so I can use those
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:2)
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:2, Informative)
And illegal in the United States. You would be infringing on HAM radio space, and they are not a group to mess with.
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:5, Funny)
For the inexperience DX'ers. (Score:2)
Re:For the inexperience DX'ers. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:5, Informative)
It doesn't work that way. Each channel is spaced 5MHz from the last, but WiFi uses 30MHz bandwidth. Someone using using channel 11 is still overlapping more than half of your needed bandwidth, even if you use channel 14.
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:3, Informative)
Craptastic (Score:3, Interesting)
How does it change the router? What new features are added?
Even if you download it, it *still* doesn't tell you anything about the project.
Re:Craptastic (Score:2)
Re:Craptastic (Score:5, Informative)
Here is what is included:
Wireless:
. Power Transmit Ajusting (12.75dBm ~19mW -> max 19.25dBm ~ 84mW)
. TX & RW Antenna Selection ( Left Diversity Right)
. Support for 14 Channels (WorldWide)
+ Will support for Bridge and Repeter, WDS mode in final release
System & Network:
. Support for subnet 255.255.0.0 & 255.0.0.0
. Static DHCP
. DNS Local
. SNMPD ( Works right with mrtg)
. Support VPN Passthrough (IPSec - PPTP - L2TP )
. Add 'Server Profiles' for easy configure up to 14 Host Servers
( FTP,HTTP,HTTPS,DNS,SMTP,POP3,Telnet,IPSec,PPTP,Te
. Up to 14 Port Range Forward settings
. VPN Server (PPTP) Buld-in
. Support for Zone-Edit, Custom Dyndns DDNS
. Telnet Shell
. Remote Wake On Lan support
. Easy Reboot and Restart all service just a click
. Ping & Traceroute hacked for allow run shell command
. AutoRun Bash Script - Easy set an autorun script each time router reboot
. Status with more infos like Uptime & CPU Load, Wireless Client List
+ SSH Shell
+ Bandwidth Management
+ VPN Server IPSec
+ VPN Client (PPTP & IPSec)
** . = Current release | + = Will be add in next release **
Updates:
iptables 1.2.9
PoPToP v1.1.3
pppd 2.4.2
busybox 1.0 pre7
pptp 1.4
net-snmp 5.1
Kernel 2.4.20 Tweaked
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:5, Informative)
Not that this should stop you. Those handy firmwares also let you bump down (or up!) your broadcast strength. I recomend bumping it down to as low as you can while still getting the distance you require. I run my WRT54g at a comfy 12.5% of the possible output.
Re:Change Your Firmare? (Score:5, Funny)
Ok, so log into all of the OTHER routers, move them to channel 14, and then call the FCC. Problem solved.
A practical solution. (Score:2)
Put yours in the middle.
Voila. You have a working connection.
What this is asking: (Score:5, Funny)
Should I convince my neighbors to hire a single child to shout the street news for all of us?
Should I make my house soundproof?
Should I train my child to shout louder or in a different language?
Should I move?
This isn't a technical problem at all!
Ugh (Score:5, Interesting)
At this point I'm seriously considering returning my Xmas present and just getting the next model up, which does 108Mbps over 802.11a 5.8GHz, thus bypassing 2.4Ghz entirely . .
--Ryv
Re:Ugh (Score:2)
The 802.11a devices are more expensive, and less used for that reason. You can buy dual band cards that supports both 802.11a and 802.11b/g, which is handy if you have a laptop.
The 802.11a has more channels available, depending on country, than 802.11b. And the distance between the allowed channels are greater as well. The dow
Re:Ugh - Turbo 108MBps (Score:2, Informative)
I like
overlapping channels (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:overlapping channels (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Microwaving water (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Microwaving water (Score:3, Insightful)
The only way to superheat water is to use PURE (distilled) water.
Water out of the tap is not pure, and won't become superheated and explode.
Re:Microwaving water (Score:3, Informative)
Finally, I figured it must at least be warm, and pulled the mug out of the microwave. As soon as I put the spoon in the water, it exploded all over me, scalding me pretty bad.
So why does my microwaved water explode, then? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Microwaving water (Score:3, Interesting)
Then *any* dirt will cause it to boil- suddenly.
I've done this myself. I cooked it up, without it bubbling, and then tipped some sugar into it with a long-handled wooden spoon- whoosh and the level in the cup suddenly goes down.
Apparently, one guy blinded himself- he picked the cup of superheated water
Two Words (Score:2)
Re:Two Words (Score:2)
Then radios, mobile phones, etc will be useless.....but who needs that with internet radio and VoIP, right?
Yes, there is a solution to your problem. (Score:5, Funny)
Real Life Solutions (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Real Life Solutions...Until... (Score:2, Insightful)
This works fine, until just one of them discovers Napster.
Re:Real Life Solutions (Score:2)
In a way... (Score:5, Funny)
If it were me... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Contact the neighbors (door to door, flyers, etc) and inform them of the problem, offer to secure their WAP's and put them on a Wi-Fi co-op that would give the entire complex a single Wi-Fi connection
2) Contact an ISP that's willing (I know Speakeasy, Slashdot's sponsor is doing this) and get a big pipe from them (High power DSL or T-1)
3) Set up one WAP as the main station and configure everyone else as a repeater
Advantages:
1) Big fat Wi-Fi pipe
2) Wide range (entire complex and then some)
3) Everyone has tighter security if you know how to set up Wi-Fi properly
4) Joint budgets make this more affordable
Disadvantages:
1) Bandwidth hogs (though it can be mitigated)
2) Bickering neighbors or those who refuse for whatever reasons (good diplomacy skills here)
3) Large initial expense (those T-1's aren't cheap if you go that route, good equipment and setup charge investments involved)
So far it hasn't been a problem in my area, I personally appreciate being the one secure well guarded WAP with 3 other Default SSID's around me
Unfortunately if this isn't plausible for you, I fear you might be stuck going 802.11a or how about just plugging in the ol' cat 5/6 again?
Re:If it were me... (Score:2)
Re:If it were me... (Score:2, Funny)
4) Having to administer all that crap.
Re:If it were me... (Score:2)
I don't know my neighbors. I d
Why bother with a T-1? (Score:3, Informative)
Easy to solve problem. (Score:3, Funny)
Just connect to one of these networks, open up your browser to 192.168.1.1 (password should be 'admin'), select the tab called 'Wireless,' and uncheck 'Enable Wireless Connections.'
Rinse and repeat.
Why are you concerned with boosting noise (Score:2)
What about internal networks (Score:5, Interesting)
For instance, on my network, there are a few iTunes databases feeding to the TiVo, the TiVo has to see the music to play it, all of which has to be on the same subnet. And that's just my roommate. I use several automated ssh scripts to play time shifted radio in various rooms (office, bedroom), have a NFS server with loads of video that I'd like to keep private... or the college kids in the neighborhood will suck my bandwidth like an Earnest movie.
In short, all is well and good... if *all* you want is bandwidth to one machine and never wish to reliably connect to another machine you own... and don't care about the privacy of your network.
--
Evan
802.11a (Score:2, Informative)
Cancel your net connection.... (Score:2)
Put your AP about 6 feet away (Score:2)
Be Evil (Score:2, Funny)
here, it's not so much the WAPs... (Score:3, Informative)
Gotta love the FCC's bandplan. Stacking wifi and cordless phones onto the same spectrum.
Re:here, it's not so much the WAPs... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:here, it's not so much the WAPs... (Score:2)
For this very reason I choosed a cordless phone that is using the frequency 1880MHz to 1990MHz. The phone's base station is separate from the handset (that has it's own charger), and is placed in a closet along with the ADSL modem and an old Del
Can't Complain, but try asking nicely (Score:2, Interesting)
However, being a good neighboor can solve the problem with a bit of leg work.
My neighboorhood was the same way, AP's on different channels all over the place causing no ned of problems. I did a little direction finding, knocked on the doors and explained the problem. Ended up orginizin
Get an old microwave (Score:5, Funny)
2) Break off all the shielding*
3) Put aluminum foil 'reflectos' out the front of it and aim at the walls where nothing is in the way*
4) Unground the unit*
5) Put it on a timer to turn on when you are away from home.*
Eventually you'll either burn the place down or put out so much interferance your neighbors will take their WAPs back.
*please note doing this is idiotic and you'd be a real moron to do it....
Re:Get an old microwave (Score:4, Funny)
1) Get old microwave and remove door.
2) Override door safety.
3) Place bowl of cat food in front of unit and leave device running all night.
4) Listen to neighbours complain about their cats dieing horrible unexplained deaths.
He he he...
Re:Get an old microwave (Score:4, Informative)
802.11a will get loved to death, too (Score:5, Informative)
The 802.11b/g spectrum is being loved to death in your building. If you've got twenty devices trying to share only three non overlapping channels (1,6,11) its a mess if anyone wants to go fast.
Setting the channel is the first step but you'll still get adjacent channel interference. Setting SSID *DOES* *NOT* *HELP*, nor does WEP/WPA. SSIDs define a group of nodes that are going to associate but the media layer (OSI layer 2) is *shared* for 802.11. That means two properly secured networks on different channels are still sharing the same stream of NAV (network allocation vectors) and they'll be stepping all over each other.
I could go on about this but I've got the flu and you've got internet access - get Matthew S. Gast's fine O'Reilly book on 802.11 and learn all the gory details for youself.
wi-max (Score:2)
Failing that, stealing someone's connection, changing all of their channels to something else, setting up a co-op and centralizing the wireless, running wires, or building a faraday cage are all options of increasing annoyance.
I personally favor the wi-max route since it lets you play with something new and 802.11a j
Going to 802.11a (Score:5, Interesting)
Part of the reason why I was going to go "a" was because there weren't really any wardrivers checking out the network, and the other major part was that my cordless phone, microwave, and other equipment didn't use the frequency. I know that security through obscurity isn't a good idea as one's only line of defense, but using 802.11a, in addition to proper trusted/untrusted zone firewalling with WEP and software or protocol based encrypted tunnelling should have left me fairly secure for being over the airwaves.
I don't know the status of 802.11a in Linux right now, but if it's good then I'd recommend going to that. It may cost more, but it's faster, it's seperate from a, and relatively unused even by people with systems that would fully support it otherwise.
Went about it wrong (Score:3, Funny)
High density, but still... (Score:3, Insightful)
ok, you have a high density of Access points, but you said it didn't work, not that it performed poorly.
If you do a search on the Internet you'll find several documents refering to a 4 channel configuration with minimal overlap (4%). The actual amount of interference caused by that layout is minimal due to the actual nature of the signal. (As opposed to the simplified version people have in there heads of why channels 1, 6 and 11 are the only ones to use).
Within an apartment you should be able to get a strong enough signal as long as all your immediate neighbors aren't on the same channel as you, and assuming your walls are not paper-thin.
If your trying to receive your signal across the street you will have issues.
On the other hand I only have 2 or 3 neighbors with access points and atleast one of them isn't clueless (WEP enabled) (even if it does suck)).
Re:High density, but still... (Score:2)
Actually, there are some of us who are both clued and disable WEP. Block port 25, log the traffic, and it's the neighborly thing to do. bouncings's apartment: free wifi!
The point of wireless (Score:2, Insightful)
Am I the only one who finds this situation ridiculous? We have 10-20 families in and around your apartment building, each with their own wireless access point. An entire building could probably be adequately served by two or three, depending on the size and construction of the building. Yet everyone greedily has to have their own, and because of this, performance suffers for everyone. I find it delightfully ironic. Linksys and their ilk must also be rubbing their hands together with glee.
Here's a nove
New York wireless plan (Score:2)
Sounds like you have the same problem. My neight bor wants to buy access from me right now... now thasts a cheap way to pay for my own cable. Or an expensive way to elarn he knows how to torrent.
Location of Access Point (Score:2)
You should check to make sure your Access Point isn't near any other equipment. It may be a combination of local appliance/computer and apartment complex noise that is making your network suffer.
Most users put their access points near their computers or entertainment centers -- don't do this. Put your cable modem and access point in part of your house with few appliances, and you should have better results.
WDS (Score:2)
The security risks involved with sharing the same network with multiple other people (who would each have their own router, their own default gateway) can be easily solved with a firewall blocking access to your net connection (or other machines) by all but the authorized IPs.
Any linksys WRT54G wireless router should be able to
fixes (Score:2)
2. Channels 1, 6, 11 don't overlap. If there are unsecured AP's, perhaps *cough* "convincing your neighbors to change to a different channel" *cough* might be appropriate.
3. WTF is going on with your router, there seems to be something seriously wrong with signal strength - most routers aren't th
Take your's back (Score:2)
I USED to use 802.11A (Score:5, Interesting)
Then my neighbor brought home a frequency-hopping 5GHz wireless phone.
And then paradise went away, and I found myself unable to connect to my "A" network any more.
Since the condo I live in has a very small yard with a lot of other suburban professionals nearby, I found, like the Topic Author, that I didn't have much of a choice in using "G", either.
Eventually I talked on of my father's employees (an engineer and a Ham enthusiast) into building a smallish 5GHz signal amplifier out of a few hundred dollars worth of his spare parts. The way he was talking I'm not even completely sure my neighbor's phone can even work any more, and I get reception on my (secure) "A" WLAN a full city block from my house.
Welcome to FCC Part 15 devices (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a reason folks that're "serious" about RF tech shy away from Part 15 gear.
I quote:
"This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.(emphasis mine)
Part 15 devices have no protection, no guarantee of function.
Seems quite the platform to base your IT world on, don't it.
Title 47 CFR:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/
Bad Idea, but will work.... (Score:5, Funny)
Anyway....
1. Run airpwn [evilscheme.org]
2. Watch your scared neighbors turn off APs in horror.
3. Wifi!!!
Put the power where it belongs! (Score:5, Informative)
By directing the power over 90 deg instead of 360, what do you think you have just done? Not only have you increased the transmit power, you've also vastly increased the receive gain.
Reflector templates can be found here:
http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template/ind
I was in a situation where I needed broadband in an apartment w/out a connection, and used a DWL AP2000+ in client mode with one of these antennas (styrafoam, a kitchen knife, aluminum foil, and cellotape) to pull a symmetric 3.5mbps from an AP 600 meters down the street.
Make sure to put the reflectors on both antennas and point them both in the same direction. In almost all cases with such APs, only one antenna is transmit, while both receive.
Simple - Get A High Gain Antenna (Score:4, Insightful)
Antennas get their gain by boosting the signal in one direction at the expense of signal in other directions. Your typical 8 dBi "omnidirectional" antenna sends very little of its signal up or down, while greatly increasing the signal it sends in the horizontal plane. Result: less interference for your upstairs & downstairs neighbors, and a much stronger signal on your level.
Or get a 14 dBi panel antenna (which focuses its signal in about a 60 degree arc IIRC) and stick it in a corner of your apartment.
The solution isn't adding more power or screwing with the neighbors' access points - it's
using external antennas to send the signal where you want it to go
figuring out which neighbor's AP is interfering with your signal the most and nicely asking him to choose another channel
Three letters... (Score:5, Funny)
Last resort: become a ham (Score:3, Insightful)
This should be the last resort because it is not a nice thing to do. So try all the other suggestions first.
A ham is allowed to use far more power on the 2.4Ghz band. Now there are limits to what you can do with this (which more or less exclude putting your AP on it). However as a licensed radio operators they must make sure their routers do not interfere with you when you are using your ham equipment!
A combination of cranking your power up, when they most want to use the net (shuts them off), and turning it way down othertimes until you cannot receive a signal because of their interference, and you can have the FCC shut them down.
Of course as a ham you need to check the laws closely. Make sure you are on the right side of everything.
Try a D-Link router and Belkin PCMCIA card... (Score:3, Informative)
To make a long story short, the DI-624 I bought for home was a different hardware revision than at work, with completely different firmware. Out of the box the DI-624 will not support 802.11b as it is configured to 802.11g turbo mode, so the Belkin card would not connect. I changed the wireless settings to disable the Turbo G mode and it still would not connect.
Finally, in frustration I brought the DI-624 from work (with two antennas as opposed to the newer version I had with one) along with a 802.11g D-Link PC card. Of all the combinations, Belkin 802.11b PC card, the "b" and "c" revisions of the DI-624, and a D-Link 802.11g PC card the Belkin wireless card and the "b" revision D-Link router had the best range and speed followed closely by the D-Link 802.11g card.
In the end, I simply swapped the "b" and "c" D-Link routers around and used the "b" version at home and the "c" version at work with the D-Link 802.11g card. It seems the 802.11 "b" and "g" standards leave a lot of room for interpretation, given that myself and others I have spoken to have had many problems getting products from one company to connect to another.
what's missing here, is this... (Score:5, Informative)
Second, you're probably getting as much overlap from portable phones as you are from AP's in the building.
My advice differs from so many others. I say, centrally locate your AP in the apartment at the same plane as you'll generally be holding your laptop. That usually means about 30 inches for tabletop, about 20" if its actually on your lap keeping your genetals warm (and isn't that really why we all want Pentium 4 HT processors?).
If you're still not connecting on any channel, you probably have a config issue. Start with the basics. Reset the unit to factory config and change only the password. let it broadcast its SSID. Connect, then starting tightening it down. Don't sweat the hackers until you have something of value. Clearly, they don't need your bandwidth.
Also, learn about what blocks this frequency. In a nutshell, water. Anything with water. PEOPLE, for example, are excellent at blocking wifi. Your walls may have plaster that was water based. Chip off a piece and put it in the microwave for a few seconds. If it heats up, it will block wifi. The same goes for PVC plastics. Most won't, some will. A chip in the microwave for a few seconds will tell you.
I can't tell you how many times I see people in a coffee shop with wifi connection problems, when they've set the 900 ounce mochofrappafuckamacallit right next to their wifi card. DOH! If the signal is iffy, that's more than enough to kill it off.
Finally -- make sure you hit the basics. Get the latest (actually, sometimes teh second to latest) drives for teh wifi card and the AP, as well as any firmware upgrades. Don't laugh, sometimes it's really not plugged in.
You're in an apartment. Run some damn wires. Snake them under the carpet or hang the from the ceiling. Put lights on them and make them festive. Let your geek flag fly.
The real question that no-one has asked (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:go to home depot, buy a drill (Score:2)
Re:go to home depot, buy a drill (Score:2)