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Desktops (Apple) Hardware

PC Competition for the Mac mini? 603

Posted by Cliff from the prices-from-the-twilight-zone dept.
Omega1045 asks: "When Apple announced their Mac mini last week for US$499, it caught my eye. Wanting to buy/build a small PC for my already cramped breakfast bar, I started pricing out similar PC hardware. The results startled me. It was very difficult to price a PC as small (6.5" x 6.5" x 2") as the Mac mini with comparable equipment cheaper than the Mac mini. Indeed, most of the configurations I found were more than the humble $499 of the Mac, often much more. To match price I often had to configure with a much bigger shuttle-style case. What computers are currently on the market to compete with this? When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?" How long do you think it will take PC manufacturers to answer Apple's latest entry into the market?
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PC Competition for the Mac mini? More

PC Competition for the Mac mini?

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  • Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by arson1 ( 527855 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:34PM (#11413509) Homepage
    what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

    Nothing comes to mind that can do as much for that price, but I'm sure someone will post all the components that they got for some price you'll never be able to find. They won't account for the OS price, the time spend building the computer, or the lack of any warranty.
    • I'm becoming more and more of a mac fan everyday. I think jobs strategy of almost 'dumping' this mac will workout to gain marketshare.

      • Re:Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)

        by I_Love_Pocky! ( 751171 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:44PM (#11413629)
        I know, seriously, all other things being equal I would always take a Mac over a PC. The only reason I don't own a Mac is because they cost too much (not so much the case with the mac-mini anymore).

        I mean really, unless you could get a comperable PC for less than the $500 price tag why would you even consider it?

        Don't like OSX (It takes some getting used to, but I think it probably has the best UI of any OS out there)? Run PPC Linux.

        • Re:Nothing (Score:3, Informative)

          by Marxist Hacker 42 ( 638312 ) *
          The hard part is the mini-ITX board. A mere PC with comparable software stats can be had from Great Wall Computers for $199 at any Fry's- but it's not cute and it's not small (mini tower case).

          • Re:Nothing (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @07:41PM (#11414170)
            My suspicion is that we will not see a "mini-killer" from the PC world for about six months to a year, if at all.

            Apple thinks they are discovering a new market with the mini. If it turns out they are right, the Windows world will certainly rush to come up with something that reaches that market. Let's see what they could do:

            The mini looks very similar to the eMac mobo, or possibly more like the G4 mobo with a single DIMM slot replacing the two SO-DIMM slots. The idea is, it's a laptop-class system in an ultra-small desktop box.

            Now, Intel has been trying to find a way to compete with the lower heat and longer battery life of the iBook/Powerbook line for a long time, with very limited success, but they've recently gained a lot of traction with the new "Centrino" line of mobile processors.

            Now suppose TI or Intel or some other company who has the capacity to do motherboard design comes out with a 5" x 5" Centrino mobo which uses standard-size memory.

            They will probably use integrated video to save a few bucks, rather than patching on an ATI Mobility card the way Apple does, but nobody will care... this isn't a 1337 game system, it's an attempt at a mini killer. Integrated sound would also be likely.

            It would probably support USB2 and VGA, and even hang on to PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports, but scrap the parallel port and all but one serial port. Since they preserved the PS/2 Bus, it would cost almost nothing to bundle a keyboard and two-button mouse with it.

            It would probably work with a standard Targus laptop power supply, and probably ship with a generic version of the same thing.

            Instead of the laptop drive, make it a half-inch taller and put in a full-sized ATA HD.

            Total cost to buy one of these units from HP, eMachines, or some other low-end company would be $349 and include a default installation of Windows XP Home Edition.

            The problem is, hard-core PC users will have spent the better part of a year convincing themselves that such a design is strictly for those gay-ass Mac-heads, and spend their money on a conventional tower system.

            The lack of DVI would make it less suitable for the entertainment system (most of your better projectors and HDTV systems now support DVI inputs), and the lack of Firewire or 802.11g/Bluetooth antennas makes it actually harder to expand than the mini, which (let's face it) is not a particularly flexible machine by PC user standards.

            If they are really smart, they will spend the extra money to preserve that other staple of PC laptops: The PCMCIA slot. This will present the opportunity to add Firewire, wireless networking, and a few other things which mini users will already be taking for granted.

            But like I said, nothing like this is likely to happen until after the industry witnesses the Mac mini selling like hotcakes, and then they will need a couple months of R&D to react.

            There's actually a chance that the mini will turn out to be the "Mac cube" of 2005, in which case nobody will bother to copy it, and after it's discontinued used minis will sell for above the original retail price on eBay, just because it will become such a curious novelty of days gone by.

            • Re:Nothing (Score:3, Interesting)

              by John Harrison ( 223649 )
              The Cappuchino is pretty close in size to the mini Mac. I have one sitting here and it isn't that cute. However it is well thought out. It has the following ports on it: PS/2 keyboard and mouse, S-video out, RCA video out, VGA out, serial, parallel, modem, 2 usb ports, power in, audio out, audio in, and ethernet (I assume 10/100). It also has a CD drive, a volume dial, and an infra-red sensor. Of course it has ports or switches on five of its six sides, so it is a bit ugly.

              Looking at the ports, the

              • Re:Nothing (Score:3, Insightful)

                by Golias ( 176380 )
                As has been pointed out elsewhere, that system is not just "ugly" (as if most Slashdotters would care), it's also bigger, louder, slower, and more expensive than the Mac mini.

                For once, Apple has released the fastest & cheapest system available in its class.

                Yes, you can get a much faster & cheaper desktop system than the G5 iMac.

                You can probably also build a sweet AMD system for the price of the G5 tower.

                The iBook remains fairly competitive, but far from the cheapest laptop out there.

                However, if

                • Re:Nothing (Score:3, Insightful)

                  by superpulpsicle ( 533373 )
                  I always found it ironic that people who NEED a processor as powerful as the G5 are clapping their hands over the space saved by Mac mini. If you really NEED power, then space shouldn't be an issue. In that case, I'd buy a PC many times more powerful at the price of a G5.

                • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                  by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
                  Comment removed based on user account deletion

            • Re:Nothing (Score:3, Insightful)

              by Luscious868 ( 679143 )

              My suspicion is that we will not see a "mini-killer" from the PC world for about six months to a year

              There's only one issue: the Mini killer would probably run Windows. The entire point of the Mini is to produce a more affordable Mac to appeal to those who want to try a Mac but used to bulk at the price. If a user was totally happy with his or her Windows based PC, they probably wouldn't be considering a Mac in the first place.

              I think I fit into the target demographic for the Mini. I ordered mine the

      • Re:Nothing (Score:2, Interesting)

        by DustMagnet ( 453493 )
        I'm convinced that's Apple's strategy. They did it with the iMac. It's not really "dumping", since many businesses sell at a lose to get started. Obviously the first mini-mac sold will be at a huge lose. As they sell more and more they recover devel costs and the price for the whole sale hardware price falls, so profits grow faster and faster. That's how I saw the iMac and the iPod and I hope they have another success here.

        It sort of sounds like selling at a lose and making it up in volume.

    • Re:Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Blondie-Wan ( 559212 ) on Thursday January 20, 2005 @01:00AM (#11416682) Homepage
      I think there's a bigger, more basic question here. If the Mac mini's specs are all things Omega1045 is looking for in the computer he intends to get (which I'm assuming is the case, since he's trying to spec out a PC that matches or beats the mini's features), and the mini is cheap enough for his budget ("... for the same price (or less)," he says he wants his PC to be), and (most importantly) his wife wants the mini, why doesn't he just get the mini?

      I'm asking this only partly from the perspective of wondering what's wrong with the Mac mini in his eyes (I accept there may be any number of legit reasons for wanting a PC instead, like wanting to use certain software, etc.). I'm asking largely because I wonder why he'd prefer to get something other than what the wife wants - not something specific, mind you, but just anything that's not the one thing she's suggesting, despite the fact that from his own query's wording it apparently features everything he wants in the new computer, and at a price he can't match with another system. It sounds a bit like he's just arbitrarily refusing to get the Mac mini to spite her, or something. I hope that's not the case (and I do apologize if I've mischaracterized his intent; I just don't understand what he's thinking)...

  • I dunno Cliff (Score:3, Funny)

    by nocomment ( 239368 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:34PM (#11413512) Homepage Journal
    How lond do you think it will take PC manufacturers to answer Apple's latest entry into the market?

    I don't think anyone really knows how lond ;-)

    omega1045: just buy the mini :-) why not? It's unix.

  • Mini copies on the way? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nekoniku ( 183821 ) <justicek&infosource,info> on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:34PM (#11413517) Homepage
    How lond do you think it will take PC manufacturers to answer Apple's latest entry into the market?

    If the Mini sells well, look for copies in less than a year; if it's not a big hit, the big guys (Dell, HP, et al) won't bother.
    • Why would the big guys bother anyway? Its practically win-win if it takes off. Their tech-support doesn't have to deal with as many computer illiterate people, and the big-company execs don't have to deal with as many tech-support people anymore (wink wink).

  • Hey! My Mom Can Build One! (Score:5, Informative)

    by rueger ( 210566 ) * on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:35PM (#11413519) Homepage
    Before all of the do-it-yourself system builders leap in, check out this post from Yesterday's discussion [slashdot.org]:

    Leo McGarry [slashdot.org] said, and I can't think of a better summary,

    "Howzabout you buy a computer instead of hand-carving your own microchips?

    People love to talk about how you can build a top-flight desktop computer for $3.25 plus two subway tokens and some kind of weird-ass coin that you dug out of your sofa that's got "Røølï" written on it, but what they curiously omit is the fact that if you took all the time you'd spend gathering parts and assembling them and worked a minimum-wage job at some fast food place instead, you'd earn hundreds of dollars. So the real cost of this "It's Shake-n-Bake, and I helped!" special is, in fact, several times higher than the sum of the price tags on the hundreds of inscrutable parts that went into it.

    People who say "I can build that for less" are either not bothering to account for their time or just flat-out lying, because the plain truth of the matter is that if they could, somebody already would have, and you'd be able to just go out to a 7-11 and buy the damn thing for half off with the purchase of a medium or large fountain drink."

    • Re:Hey! My Mom Can Build One! (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Omega1045 ( 584264 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:39PM (#11413563)
      For me building it can be fun and educational. It isn't all about the money.

      Also, I am wondering about the cost for local vendors trying to compete with the big guys. Can a local computer shop put one of these together to compete with the Mac? Even with a free (as in beer) OS?

    • Come on I've built many computers and it usually takes less then an hour. Take on a few for pricing components/ Frys run for most of the people here it is a loss of $50 or so. As another poster already said it is fun and education. Worst case it costs a few more hours another 100 or so.

      When it comes to a 1500+ mac (ie Tower) I can see this argument and it's hard to claim they spend THAT many hours. Now with the mini I don't see it....
    • People who say "I can build that for less" are either not bothering to account for their time...

      If someone was doing this at work you would be correct. But last I checked I wasn't getting paid for stuff I do on my own time after I come home in the evenings. I am not getting paid for my time from six pm to eight am, so I'm in no way losing money by building something like this.

  • Cappuccino (Score:5, Informative)

    by attaboy ( 689931 ) * on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:35PM (#11413526)

    I bought a fanless mini pc from CappuccinoPC. I don't see the exact model I purchased on their site, but it was close to this one:

    http://www.cappuccinopc.com/slimpro-sp300-fanless. asp [cappuccinopc.com]

    1.65"H x 5.75"W x 9.84"D

    Slightly bigger than the mini-mac, and not as stylish.

    They have a variety of other systems, some with fans, some without. Some of them come in a brushed silver color.

    They have cases, barebones, and fully functional offerings. I bought a complete PC and it was under $600.

    • Re:Cappuccino (Score:5, Insightful)

      by iluvcapra ( 782887 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:50PM (#11413684)
      I bought a fanless mini pc from CappuccinoPC.

      I looked this up and it is a pretty awesome box for an embedded app. For someone who just wants a computer, I think it's probably not worth the hassle.

      I get a total of $808 configured thus:

      Pentium mobile at 650Mhz (the fastest they'll install for you)

      PC133 256MB RAM

      40GB 4200 RPM drive

      Slot-loading combo drive

      DOS-formatted drive (add $159 for XP Pro)

      Integrated graphics, (no VRAM cited, so I assume this is shared.)

      it does have PS/2 and serial ports, but only USB1.1. It includes a firewire.

      I don't think this is the right machine for the application, and even though it is a much lesser machine than the Mini, it still is more expensive.

      Cool box, just waiting for hacking, but not for the punters.

    • Re:Cappuccino (Score:2, Interesting)

      by iluvcapra ( 782887 )

      Me again... a fairer comparison is a cappacino EZ3 [cappuccinopc.com]

      This combo is $1,042

      Intel Pentium III @1.26 GHz

      PC133 256MB RAM

      40GB 4200RPM HD

      Slot-loading DVD-CDR Combo drive

      XP Pro

      Intel integrated graphics

      No montior or keyboard

      PC people, no flame, but what makes this more expensive!?

  • Provocation! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Gadzinka ( 256729 )
    Don't answer him! It's a provocation by some apple zealot!

    Robert

    PS ;)

  • Think different. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Just Some Guy ( 3352 ) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:36PM (#11413537) Homepage Journal
    What computers are currently on the market to compete with this? When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

    None, and you can't.

    You want something small and functional for your breakfast bar, right? Then just get the Mac Mini and be done with it. It'll play your music, browse the web, and read your email every bit as well as your Windows PC, so what's the problem? Are you planning to play Doom 3 over eggs and bacon?

    • Re:Think different. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Temporal ( 96070 )
      Are you planning to play Doom 3 over eggs and bacon?

      Incidentally, with the Mac mini, he could.

      • Re:Think different. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Actually, no he couldn't [aspyr.com] (click on "System Requirements" once that page has loaded.) The Mac Mini has only 32 MB of video RAM; Doom 3 wants 64 MB. The Mac Mini is up to 1.42 GHz; Doom 3 wants at least 1.5 GHz.

        Granted, the CPU is less likely to be a concern, but the video RAM is a definite problem. Doom 3 is likely to crawl on the Mini because of it.

        • Re:Think different. (Score:3, Informative)

          by Temporal ( 96070 )
          Woops, guess you're right. Oh well. He could play Halo or UT2k4, though. I think it's worth noting that the Mac mini has a far better graphics chipset than just about any $500 PC.

      • Re:Think different. (Score:3, Informative)

        by Nailer ( 69468 )
        Really?

        I have a laptop PC with a 2.4Ghz processor and a Geforce 4 Ti Mobile GPu. Doom 3 runs like ass.

        I've ordered a Mac Mini tho (not to play doom on), and I'd very surprised and happy if it could play Doom 3. But if it can: why, on such low specs?

  • The couch (Score:5, Funny)

    by hab136 ( 30884 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:37PM (#11413542) Journal
    what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

    My wife asked me for one thing, how can I give her something else entirely and act all pompous like I went out of my way for her? I like sleeping on the couch.

  • Sorry, has to be said (Score:5, Insightful)

    by captnitro ( 160231 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:37PM (#11413544)
    When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

    You could just buy the Mac Mini. I know it seems silly, but this is exactly what Apple is hoping you'll do. For iLife, a BSD userland, and some other fun stuff, how can you resist? I know you can, thank you peanut gallery.

    I tried pricing something similar a while ago -- look at OEM parts, and consider putting the whole thing into a cardboard box; you can do well with an Athlon 64, a couple hundred megs of memory, and a bulk HD. Size, however.. that's hard. MiniITX doesn't come cheap.
    • I could, but I know jack and shiat about Mac OS. I spend the day programming in Unix, Linux and Windows. I already am attempting to retain technical knowledge about all those, I just don't feel like trying to support something else at home.

      Seriously, I have a couple of apps that I really like on my PC that I would not have on a Mac. It just isn't what I am looking to get into. I might end up using this as a light weight home work machine if needed.

      • You really do know jack shiat about MacOS. I ain't no expert- but even I know that OSX and above is based on Unix.

      • Re:Sorry, has to be said (Score:5, Interesting)

        by unclethursday ( 664807 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @07:41PM (#11414173)
        I could, but I know jack and shiat about Mac OS.

        Not much to learn, really. Replance CTRL for Command (Apple key) for most functions, and then you know what to do if coming from a Windows world. CMD+C = copy, CMD+V = paste, etc.

        I got my first Mac in March of '04, and within a few hours of just fooling around, I was moving just as quickly as I do on Windows. Now, after using it lmost exclusively for the past 9 months, I do things much fater on it than I could on my Windows box.

        It's seriously easy as hell to learn, and plug in a USB multi-button mouse and work like you do on Windows for most things (only thing I miss is clicking the scroll wheel and moving up or down to quickly scroll through documents and such). Other than that, the OS is a snap to use.

      • Re:Sorry, has to be said (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @08:10PM (#11414439)
        If OS X actually does scare away a smart guy like you, why not buy the Mac mini and then load Linux on it.

        Seriously. If a Linux box is what you want, and you want it as small and quiet as the mini, than a mini running Debian or YDL is hands-down the cheapest way to do it.

        However, before you reformat and pull out those Debian disks, I suggest you give OS X a brief trial.

        - It's pre-loaded with the only browser that compares favorably with Mozila's offerings, and Mozila runs fine in OS X if that's your preference.

        -Bring up the terminal window and you have access to a bash prompt.

        - It has a remarkably simple e-mail app with thread tracking and spam filtering, but feel free to run command-prompt mail programs if you are a hard-core Linux/BSD CLI guy.

        - It comes with Apache pre-installed. Launching httpd is as simple as clicking a box in the network preferences.

        - The remote desktop tool works great, and also comes pre-installed. ssh is loaded up and ready if you prefer.

        - The developer disk (which is not pre-loaded, but ships with every copy of OS X) contains an outstanding set of programming tools.

        - Aqua is a more consistent and functional GUI than anything the free *nix world has ever offered. The Finder window in 10.3 or later alone is worth the price of admission.

        - BBEdit, the preferred text editor of most Mac users who do dev work in text-based environments, is fairly cheap and far in advance of TextPad (the best inexpensive Windows-based text editor I've seen to date.) If you are a text-based programmer, start using BBEdit and you just might turn into a raving Mac Bigot. Plus, if you really love *nix tools, you can just run Emacs or vi.

  • Buy her what she wants! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by True Freak ( 57805 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:37PM (#11413545) Homepage
    "When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead"

    Why would you want a PC when a Mac can be had for that low price. What does the PC have that the Mac doesn't?

  • Trying to buy a PC instead? Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Headius ( 5562 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:39PM (#11413556) Homepage Journal
    Are you actually saying you'd prefer buying a PC over the Mac mini?

    As a long-time PC user who's wanted an OS X Mac for simply years, I must ask: Why?
    • When a Mac break, what do you do? You have to ship it in or take it to the Apple store. I read blogs like WilWheaton.net where Wil brags up his Mac Notebook over and over, then complains about how is in the shop for the second time and how long it takes to get it back. I have seen this same thing from Mac users I have worked with - when their computer breaks down who fixes it? Not their geek friends, because they all use PCs and don't know how to fix a Mac. I don't know shiat about a Mac, and would not
      • Your arguments are bull - notebooks are not user-servicable, period. Except for upgrading RAM (which is possible on Apples), you're supposed to send it in to the shop for any upgrades/repairs.

        And what are you going to do when your Cappuccino PC or other ultra-mini PC breaks? Those are typically made with proprietary components that are not user-servicable or replacable, and the Mac is not at a disadvantage there. Do you know if Shuttle or Cappuccino has support on the level of Apple? Because you sure as he
  • If your wife wants the Mac Mini, then buy her the Mac Mini. Why are you trying to find a lower-quality alternative? You've already stated you cannot find an quivalent Wintel machine at the same cost.
  • My wife loves her iBook G4....

  • Mac mini has low-end specs; SFF low-end PC? (Score:4, Informative)

    by JayDiggity ( 70168 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:42PM (#11413590) Homepage
    Yes, the Mac mini is a small form factor, and that's part of what makes it so appealing. However, the specs are all far from top-of-the-line: an older processor, 256 MB RAM, 40 GB HD, etc. etc. This all helps keeps the cost down. Trying to build something specifications-equivalent in a PC involves buying a low-end processor and a small motherboard to match (not to mention the other components), and I don't know if it can be done. The integration that Apple can pull together with its hardware enables low-end but tightly integrated computers such as the Mac mini to exist. The componentization of the PC world does not lend itself to a build-it-yourself Mac mini equivalent.

  • an obvious flame inducing topic... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jxyama ( 821091 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:43PM (#11413612)
    but as a mac user, i wouldn't touch a PC even if it's $200 cheaper and smaller than mac mini for the simple reason it won't be running OS X.
  • Unless you have a lot of time on your hands and some crazy Mini-ITX skills you're not going to find anything like that for awhile.

    Since the MacMini also has a video card that isn't integrated into the mother (logic) board. I have a feeling you're not going to find anything with the type of video processing power either. Decent video cards aren't very small these days.
  • You go get it.. you dont say "Maybe I can cobble together something managable"

    Apple is here for the long term. Will shuttle be?

    FYI please dont compare hardware vs hardware becuase you can get something for that price. But when you compare XP Pro, Office, Video and Picture Editing things get expensive. With mac's it's already there.

    And the target audience is those who dont upgrade their pc's.. in 2-3 years there may be updated mac mini's to upgrade to but that's beyond the point.
  • You can maybe match the price & size if you install Linux. A PC the size of the Mac Mini with Windows will have a price point quite a bit higher. We'll see what Dell and others answer with, but I bet it will have something less than the capability of iMovie/iPhoto/iDVD/GarageBand.

    For what you get (software/hardware/size), it is going to be tough to match let alone beat the Mac Mini setup for some time.

  • Get the mac (Score:5, Funny)

    by nickinho ( 793868 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @06:50PM (#11413683)
    I really don't think its hygeinic to have windows in the kitchen, all those viruses and worms

    ;-)
  • Apples and oranges really (no pun intended). You cant just say that Shuttles cost as much as Mac minis, yet are five times the size, and therefore are less bang for the buck. While something like a Shuttle may be a lot larger physically, you also get much more expandability ( you can upgrade the CPU, 2 dimm slot vs 1, a graphics slot for a high end vidcard, an PCI slot for something like a TV-Tuner, the ability to use cheaper/faster HDs vs requiring a notebook drive, etc).

    AFAIAC, the super compact form fa
  • when your wife asks for the "cute little mac" just get it for her, trying to force your sense of what a good computer is on her is a little selfish.
    How would you feel if you asked for a nice BMW and she came home with a similar Toyota?
  • Ok, here it it. The mini mac seems an expensive PC, for what it offers. But shit, it's a cheap mac! That's the point that people keep missing.

    It may well not be the best specc'd machine, but it's a cheap Mac, man! That's why they'll sell like hotcakes. I want one!

  • Old SGI Indy... (Score:3, Funny)

    by PaulBu ( 473180 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @07:00PM (#11413764) Homepage
    Really, it is stylish (nice color, will look good on coffee table), it runs UNIX, can be gotten for cheap now, even included an IndyCam -- and form-factor is not too far from mini-mac.

    Only partially kidding!

    Paul B.
  • Mini-ITX's Nanode [mini-itx.com]. Looks like there's been a delay and there isn't a price yet, but this is definately where I'd start.

    Of course, I've already build my own Mini-ITX PC [krisjohn.net], so small isn't so much of a big deal anymore. Thus I stopped tracking prices a little while ago.

  • PC System (Score:3, Informative)

    by RzUpAnmsCwrds ( 262647 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @07:23PM (#11413959)
    "what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?"

    Mini-ITX is the way to go. You'll need a motherboard and CPU ($160), a good case and PSU ($70), a laptop HDD ($130 will get you a 60GB Seagate 5200rpm), an optical drive (DVD/CD-RW; $33) and some DDR ($80 for 512M).

    Total: $473.

    Compared to the Mac Mini:

    + More memory
    + Larger HDD
    + Twice as many USB ports
    + Parallel / Serial Ports
    + Free PCI Slot
    + Audio input
    + PS2 ports
    + Dual Ethernet

    - Slower CPU
    - Slightly Larger
    - No FireWire

    Add Linux or Windows.

    • Re:PC System (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jxyama ( 821091 )
      >Add Linux or Windows.

      so it's not really comparable, is it? windows costs money. linux takes time to install/configure.

      then factor in iLife apps. and warranty.

      how about dvi out?

    • Re:PC System (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) *
      What case with PSU are you using for your comparison?
    • What case are you basing this on?

      Is it equivalent in size to the Mac Mini's?

      It is a reliable PSU, right? Not some $10 taiwanese job that's going to blow out and fry your mobo in 6 months?

      What processor and mobo?

      Are they as fast as the Mac Mini's?

      Does your hypothetical miniPC have a graphics card equivalent to the Mini's Radeon 9200, or is this some Intel Integrated piece of crap that leeches off of system RAM?

      Why do you consider a system that's $26 cheaper than the Mini but includes neither an op
    • Add Linux or Windows.

      In either case you are still considerably short of what the Mac comes with in terms of software, and you didn't include a cost for Windows.

  • zerg (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lord Omlette ( 124579 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @07:40PM (#11414166) Homepage
    Here's the quote that fortune spit out @ the bottom of this page:

    A friend of mine won't get a divorce, because he hates lawyers more than he hates his wife.



    Can you name a single man here on slashdot who wouldn't get hot @ the thought of his wife wanting to use a UNIX-based operating system?

    Get her the Mac Mini and get the AppleCare stuff so you won't have to worry about a damn thing in the event terrorists strike. And when she asks for help, you put one arm around her to work the keyboard, reach around her to grab the mouse, and whisper in her ear, "Oh no, baby, Safari is so much better than IE. Let me show you..."

    *cough*

  • There's more to the Mini than just small hardware! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Luscious868 ( 679143 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @08:29PM (#11414649)

    Not only is it tough to find a PC with comparable hardware at a comparable size with a comparable price, but you've also got to factor in the software. The Mac Mini comes loaded with OS X, iLife, AppleWorks 6, Quicken 2005 and two games.

    There's actually a lot of value there for $499. If you're able to find comparably sized hardware at a comparable price, I'd be very surprised if it came with anything more than the OS already installed.

  • Can't and won't bother. (Score:3)

    by catwh0re ( 540371 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @10:10PM (#11415500)
    The main ethic between Apple and the majority of PC makers is that the PC is still on large designed for people who want a really cheap computer. Such is the success of Dell.

    A PC maker would never create a mac mini clone, as the engineering efforts would outweigh their bottom line on the system. They would be able to make a slightly larger box, but the temptation to use things such as full sized hard drives is too great a temptation for them.

    The other problem is heat, the system will definitely be based around laptop technology for it's size and heat production, which is going to up the price even further.

    Ultimately when you work with PC's the Speed, Price, Design triangle applies, I.E in the PC world you can get any two of the three, always at the expense of the 3rd. It only takes an experienced electronics company that is used to making small(iPod, 1" Total thickness Powerbooks, ultra thin displays, sunflower iMac, flatpanel iMac, etc) devices to pull off a good price, reasonable speed and fine design balance.

    Another issue is that the moment you get some *useful* software for the low end PC the price bellows outward significantly and the result is that it will cost far in excess of the mac mini which ships with excellent(Award winning even) software, not trials/demos of paintshop pro and crippled OS's that don't let you connect to server volumes.
    So now you say, oh we'll just pirate all the software we need from our friend, which to any unscrupulous person is a good tactic to get around that price barrier. The problems don't end there though, the moment you want acceptable video in the unit you will be forking out for a separate video card, as on board video using shared memory is woeful to say the least. This is then going to be run on the cheapest architecture that the PC maker could phathom, so performance of that card is going to be cut up significantly. Finally there are numerous issued to do with your optical drives, for computer manufacturers combo drives work out to be more expensive than individual cd and dvd rom readers. Such as in the low end dell offering, you can't get a combo drive, instead you have to get two individual drives one for reading dvds and one for burning cd-r/rw.

    Anyway the point is made, for PC makers the numbers don't make sense, you'll get more cheap offerings, but as with the nature of going-on-the-cheap, the units will always be lack lustre.

  • Impressive! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by obeythefist ( 719316 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @10:47PM (#11415818) Journal
    An impressive move by Apple.

    There is only one impressive thing about the Shuffle and the Mini-mac that highlights a new marketing move by Apple that might finally allow me to stop hating them - the price.

    Apple has always dressed up average, underpowered personal computer components, slapped a white case around them, dropped a proprietary OS on them and sold them at three times the price to people who'll gladly pay three times the price for a computer because it's from Apple and it's "Blueberry" or whatever fruit flavour is popular.

    I'd consider buying one of these newer, cheaper products because of the price and functionality. For a desktop PC I'd never own a Mac, simply because I'm a gamer, I need computational power and flexibility with my desktop (I want the choice between *nix and Windows, something an Apple can't provide). Not to mention the range of games available.

    Having said that, I think Apple has screwed up with the Mac mini. All they had to do was add a TOSLINK/spdif audio out + s-video for the hi-fi enthusiasts and they would *KILL* the home theatre market. Modded X-box? No. Shuttle IPC? No. Micro-ATX? Nowhere near. It's so small it would run perfectly in a hifi stack, and with the CPU apple put in it, it's only good for video playback or web browsing or little functions like that. Unfortunately, there might not be enough CPU for on the fly video encoding, and it could use an imbedded HDTV tuner.

  • Don't forget what makes a computer worth using (Score:4, Insightful)

    by amichalo ( 132545 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2005 @11:13PM (#11415996)
    It goes without saying but everyone is forgetting:

    It's the software stupid!

    The Mac mini is bundles with:
    - BSD OS that is VVF (virtually virus free)
    - Quicken '05
    - iTunes
    - iPhoto
    - iMovie
    - iDVD (if you opt for the Super Drive option)
    - Garage Band
    - Safari
    - iCal
    - Mail.app
    - Address Book
    - iSync

    Without the software, the hardware is just something to look at (in the case of the Mac mini) or hide (in the case of most PC cases).

  • easy, and have been around for years (Score:3, Informative)

    by kayen_telva ( 676872 ) on Thursday January 20, 2005 @12:25AM (#11416487)
    http://logisysus.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=74

    http://www.boldata.com/html/minipc.cfm

    http://www.cappuccinopc.com/default.asp

    those are from the first page of a google search

  • man oh man (Score:4, Insightful)

    by zpok ( 604055 ) on Thursday January 20, 2005 @05:51AM (#11417749) Homepage
    A geek is a geek is a geek is a hopeless non-empathic cheap bastard who doesn't know his luck.

    Your wife ASKS you to buy A SPECIFIC COMPUTER. And you think that's a problem. You're going to go to all the trouble to buy her something "better" - read: not what SHE asks but what YOU want to buy.

    Dude, you've got a problem, and it's not necessarily with computers.

  • please save yourself (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rinoid ( 451982 ) on Thursday January 20, 2005 @10:40AM (#11419235)
    Don't hassle dude. Just buy the Mac.

    What is more sexy?? A BSD based Mac Mini with bash, a fast processor, iLife, DVI out to RCA, real video card and more at 5.5x5.5 or a Win Longhorn Bathroom edition 6.5x7.5 with no DVI??

    Huh? Tell me! I mean really.

  • Suck It Up (Score:4, Insightful)

    by White Roses ( 211207 ) on Thursday January 20, 2005 @10:50AM (#11419326)
    When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

    [flamethrower on]
    How about sucking it up and getting her the Mac Mini? Afraid it won't integrate with your Windows XP Home network or something? Afraid you might like it better than your own machines? Afraid your wife might like it better than you? Get over it.

    If she does ask for a Mac, and you buy her a PC instead, it really won't matter what size it is, because it'll be sleeping in the bed with her, while you're sleeping in the garage. Think about all the other times she asked for a diamond and you bought her a bigger CZ instead.
    [/flamethrower off]

  • Paul Thurrott strikes again (Score:3, Funny)

    by DavidLeblond ( 267211 ) <meNO@SPAMdavidleblond.com> on Thursday January 20, 2005 @11:34AM (#11419827) Homepage
    Paul Thurrott says [internet-nexus.com] that the Mini's competition is eMachines and Compaq and that both of them will squash Apple like a bug. Had a good laugh at that this morning.

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