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Rugged Mini-DV Camcorder for the Road?

Posted by Cliff on Tue Jun 21, 2005 06:25 PM
from the movies-on-the-move dept.
Media Movies Technology
step asks: "As part of my job, I (and my colleagues) spend weeks at a time on the road, doing science shows for high school students. To review our work, we carry DV camcorders to tape and watch our performances. Unfortunately, all the previous models we've tried haven't lasted more than 12 months on the road (and not from lack of care). When returned for repair we were told that they weren't faulty, just not up to the task. We don't need a full feature camera, just solid reliable recording and playback. In fact, simple is probably better to accommodate the most users. What experience has Slashdot had with camcorders? What's a good model that can handle lots of travel?"
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  • this is a rugged one.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by bobsalt (575905) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:28PM (#12877045)
    http://www.ev1.pair.com/colorTV/myTK41_1.html [pair.com]
    • It's so small, I feel it might easily get lost!
    • you'll also need a recorder to go with that camera. might I suggest the TR-70, which only requires 4 CFM of dry compressed air for the air bearings, and uses both silicon and germanium transistors for finest performance. it's already high band!! you can fit both the TR-70 and the TK-41's control head into an articulated bus, and tow the 15 Kw generator behind.

      http://www.lionlmb.org/quad/tr70b_1.jpg [lionlmb.org]

      or, if you don't bang it around much and keep it clean, try a canon elura series, my -65 has been good s
      • Now things are engineered for disposability/cost rather than repairability.

        Not if they're made for professionals. Which brings me to the question that must be asked - if you are shooting something as part of your job, why are you using a consumer-grade camcorder?

        To the article submitter: my guess is when these repairmen told you that your cameras weren't "up to the task" that they also told you to buy a camcorder made for the task. There are many such models available. Go to any decent camera store (B [bhphotovideo.com]

  • Sony PD-150 (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You can probably find one for less than $2000 now. Maybe even closer to $1200-1500 used in good condition. Great, great camcorder.
    • Second! Great cam.
      Thou... If they said they can't get any MiniDV cam to last more than 12 months, I wouldn't put my money on semi-pro cams either.
      There has to be a line of products for extreme conditions from some company. I haven't seen such this far.

      (*doodles with his Sony DCR-HC19 which has so dinky foily mechanics that even loading a new cassette is a risk*)

    • I dunno about that. They're a pain in the ass to use (for example, if you set the white balance and then adjust the aperture, you can't change the white balance again without undoing the aperture setting), and they don't really hold up all that well. My school gives them out to film students, and they're in crappy condition after only a couple of semesters of use--people complain about dropouts all the time, even though they're DVCAM and should be more or less immune to that (and that's not to mention all

  • Solid state video recording (Score:4, Interesting)

    by OriginalSpaceMan (695146) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:31PM (#12877069) Homepage
    I have been looking for a good DV cam to use for a long time, but I didn't want to use miniDV, I want to use flash ram. Recently Panasonic has come out with a whole line of them [panasonic.com] that use SD cards, but they're a little pricey, and you can't get much video at DVD quality on one SD card. I don't know about the durability of the hardware, but at least this option would take out all of the mechanics.

  • Rugged Manly cameras (Score:3, Interesting)

    by PhaxMohdem (809276) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:33PM (#12877081) Homepage
    Unfortunately I do not know of very many rugged mini dv cameras. The high quality camera designed for being beaten up are generally Betacam or DVCAM professional cameras for News stations and such. Its unfortunate that no company has come out with a "Toughbook" camera, but nice compromises can be found. Naturally the rule with consumer and prosumer camcorders is the bigger they are the harder they fall and more stuff they break. I personally own a JVC HD1U camcorder that is great, its has a steel handle on top so you can lug it around much easier and safer. I've had problems with cheap consumer Sony Cameras going bad after a jolt or two. My advice, go to Best Buy or whatever flavor of electronics megamart you prefer, and bang on some of the display models for a while. You'll get some funny looks, but that will be the best way to see what cameras are up to the task.

    • Re:Rugged Manly cameras (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      ... and bang on some of the display models for a while.

      Good move. Go to a store and buy which ever camera you don't break. I'm guessing they will also make you pay for the ones you managed to break.
  • might I recommend a professional model? It is much more likely to hold up to the wear & tear + duty cycle you are looking at subjecting it to.

  • Hard-drive based camcorder? (Score:3, Informative)

    by geoffeg (15786) <geoffeg AT sloth DOT org> on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:34PM (#12877092) Homepage
    You didn't say what exactly the problem was with the camera you had. If it was build quality, tape mechanism problems, dirt getting in the case, etc. You might consider checking out the JVC hard-drive based line of camcorders. I see it as the next natural progression in camcorders to get rid of the overly complicated tape loading mechanism. They're pricey but they're VERY cool.. look for the JVC Everio GZMC200.. 4 gig drive, 10x optical zoom, 2 megapixels. I want. :)
    • These take CF cards and are supplied with a 4GB microdrive - so if moving parts are not your thing (but spending lots of money is) then you can easily pick up a 4GB Ultra II.

      There are two models I'm aware of - one has a 3 CCD pickup sensor which sounds very interesting. From the stuff I've seen, the lense lets the camera down with the previous model (non-3CCD) but this may be different now.

    • Real hard disk drive based camcorders coming soon. (Score:4, Informative)

      by EasyT (749945) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @07:26PM (#12877411) Journal
      Those 4GB Everios mentioned in the parent post use Microdrives, which are little miniature hard drive platters small enough to fit in a CompactFlash form factor.

      For those that like the sound of this line of cameras but would like to see more storage capacity, JVC has apparently announced they're going to start making Everios using 20GB and 30GB hard drives. This new line will supposedly support Mac editing in iMovie for those who want that sort of thing (older models did not offer this). I've attached a the link to the JVC press release for those who want to read up about it.

      Reference URL:
      http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=461&pageID =1 [jvc.com]

      Disclaimer: Please note that I do not own an Everio, nor any other camcorder, so I am not in a position to make any authorative recommendations or comparisons, let alone attest to their durability. My opinions are void where prohibited.

    • According to my numbers, a 60 minute miniDV tape is about 15 gigabytes. And is removable for multiple tapes, which is a far cry from 4 gigabytes.

      Four gigabytes can only hold about 16 minutes worth of DV quality video. I imagine you could lengthen it by using MPEG-4 but there probably are compromises involved if you plan to do a lot of editing with it.
      • The DV video format is basically not compressed. It's designed for just one thing: very low CPU usage, so that the parts are cheap.

        It has a bitrate of 25Mbps, compare that with MPEG4: less then 1Mbps. For the same quality video I might add. Even a DVD is 5Mbps, and that is MPEG2 - which also was designed for low CPU (and memory) usage. (MPEG4 if it's not obvious was designed for the best compression possible.)

        There is no problem with editing, the only reason they don't use MPEG4 is CPU usage.

        Useful [videohelp.com]

        • Re:Hard-drive based camcorder? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by TheRaven64 (641858) on Wednesday June 22 2005, @07:01AM (#12879722) Homepage Journal
          No, DV footage is compressed, basically MJPEG. What DV does not do is interframe compression. This is not to reduce CPU usage, which is a minor problem (after all, MPEG-1/2/4 hardware encoder chips are relatively cheap). This is done because it is a bitch to edit interframe compressed footage. If you want to cut somewhere other than a keyframe, you need to at the very least add a pair of keyframes, which causes a bandwidth spike in the result. Then, when you encode to something else for deployment you have to insert keyframes in different places, and you end up with a huge drop in quality.

          Oh, and MPEG-1/2 also has some additional design constraints that were removed for MPEG-4, such as the requirement to be able to easily skip one frame backwards (MPEG-4 was designed for streaming, MPEG-1/2 were designed for local playback), so MPEG-4 doesn't encode reverse-interframe information. If you want to jump one frame backwards in MPEG-4, you jump back to the previous keyframe (often 100 or so frames back), and then calculate the deltas for every single intermediate frame. Try editing that...

          As to the link you posted, I am very suspicious of a chart which groups Sorenson, MPEG-4 and Cinepak in the same column...

    • This was what I thought.

      I bought a Sony camcorder three years ago, and it still works like new. I expect that this is because I don't use it very often for filming. In fact, it gets more use taking stills than shooting film. But it gets carried around a lot, even more than my Canon SLR.

      My brother in law also had a Sony camcorder, but he used it a lot. The tape transport gave up a few months ago. Repair would cost as much as a new camcorder...

      If the weak part of the camcorder is the tape transport,

  • Panasonic (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ianmalcm (591345) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:38PM (#12877119)
    I highly recommend the Panasonic PV-GS150 [panasonic.com]. We used it to stream LiningUpTV for 6 weeks on the steet of Hollywood Blvd, 24 hours a day. That camera is a workhorse - it survived torrential rainstorms, bleeding hot sun, drunk transients throwing it on the ground, and other insane hazards. The GS150 ran for 1000 hours straight, and is still working great.

    It can be had on Ebay for $600 package deals.

  • Try asking people that really abuse their kit.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:41PM (#12877139)
    Most skydivers and other extreme sports types have cameras these days. I have a (now old) Sony PC9 which I have helmet mounted (oo-err) and has survived quite a lot of jumping, skidoo riding, heli-boarding (-30c) and general snow boarding.

    It has finally started giving me grief however, not at the tape transport, but the auto-focus mechanism (which sometimes sticks).

    My advice would be to post a polite note on a skydiving forum and find out what people there recommend.

    Good luck.

  • Inexpensive redundancy. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by OgGreeb (35588) <og@digimark.net> on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:45PM (#12877159) Homepage
    Given the reasonable price of Mini-DV camcorders, you'd be better off purchasing two or three identical units and rotate their use. If something fails you can pull out the backup. You might also find it useful to record your work from different positions and edit them together.

    Since you asked, I've had good experience with a hand-sized Sony DCR-PC9 -- it's been beat up but remains completely functional and reliable.
    • Exactally. If you keep killing cameras, rather than pick up a professional Beta or DVCam (assuming you don't actually need the pro features, which it sounds like you don't), get several MiniDV cams. Treat them like something that gets out; replace when necessary.

  • Don't do this on Slashdot (Score:5, Informative)

    by NeedleSurfer (768029) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:49PM (#12877195)
    No offense meant to anyone, it's just that Slashdot is the worst place I've been for audio visual advices. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the only professionnal here but we are few and our words often get lost in the sea of audio and video wannabees that speaks well and hence look like the real deal.

    I've heard some of the worst misconception about audio and video on these forum spoken as if they were the mother of all truth and moderated +5 something because of it.

    Anyways, In my experience the Panasonic AG-DVX100AP is a very good camera for the price and it's very sturdy, we are using it for coorporate events and music shows where we need to do a lot of travelling shots or if we need to move a lot between shots since it's light, hold pretty well and has a very good picture, the quality is surprising, then again it's a 3CCD camera if I remember well so it does help. As for extra sturdiness use a road case with internal padding, you know those case that are reinforced with metal, are usually black and are kept close with those cool twist-latches, they are expensive but they are also worth it.

    • Re:Don't do this on Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)

      by Karma Farmer (595141) on Wednesday June 22 2005, @07:52AM (#12879970)
      No offense meant to anyone, it's just that Slashdot is the worst place I've been for audio visual advices.

      That's just because you know a little bit about audio-visual. I assure you -- if you knew a bit about other tech subjects, you'd quickly realize that Slashdot is the worst place for any kind of advice.
  • Some of the new HD cams are using hard drives. The real benefit is virtually no moving parts beyond the disk. They also do standard definition and would probably be fairly good for what they want.

    These units are intended for news crews and come with a bit of durability.

    That's really where he wants to look. It's not like people don't use cameras strictly in home.

    So pick up any broadcast professionals mag and peek about. Though they do tend to be fairly expensive.
  • You should do an economic analysis of the cost of getting a rugged camera vs the cost of simply replacing the cheaper consumer level ones every 9 months or so. Also, consider buying a replacement warranty from some place like Best Buy.

    It's got to be cheaper to simply replace the Sony every 9 months using the Best Buy warranty than it is to buy one of those pro dvcams. A typical pro level camera is around $5k and up, so you have to get 10 years of use out of the pro one to make it worthwhile at 0% interest
  • Seriously. I've owned several, and none of them has lasted very long.

    Solution? Buy a mid-priced one at Best Buy, along with the extended warranty. If you're likely to need it (and you likely will), the extended warranty is a bargain. My first two Sony MiniDV cams both failed just after a year. The Best Buy extended warranty will cover it for four years.

    Yes, you will have to let them repair it if it breaks, which can take a couple of weeks. But the $200 you spend on the extended warranty is less t

  • sorry to break it to you (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CAIMLAS (41445) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @07:06PM (#12877299) Homepage
    Sorry to break it to you, but you are not going to get a consumer product which lasts for more than a year under regular use unless you are very, very lucky - and I do mean luck.

    Consumer products are designed to break so that you'll buy a new version a short time down the road. That's why all consumer products should be considered an expendable good. Surprise! Most new companies come out with a new product version at least anually - perfect timing for designed obsolecense!

    If you want something that's rugged and repairable, you're going to have to purchase a device that costs enough to make repairing it economical for both you and the company - in other words, something that's very expensive and 'industrial'. It won't be easy to use.

    Cheapest, best route is probably to keep slugging it out for the 'cheap' consumer brand stuff and hope for the best.

    For what it's worth, both my brother and I have Canon Z40s. My brother has used his constantly for the last two years (well, quite often - a couple hours a week, I guess). It's a little body worn, but it still works fine. Mine works fine as well, and I like their product over what the others offer. *shrug*

  • Cheap, Cheap, Cheap (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pagercam2 (533686) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @07:07PM (#12877308)
    Don't spend large amounts of money, get the cheapest one you can find with reasonable features and quality and just allow for the fact that it needs to get replaced every so often. I'd much rather have to buy 10 $200 recorders instead of one $2000 which might get stolen misplaced or break in a fall. Get an expensive pair of sunglasses and you'll lose them in a week, get a cheap pair and you can't throw them away!!!
  • The Panasonic line.

    I am embarking on my two year bike journey/documentary. You can see it at worldcyclist.com [worldcyclist.com]

    What I am using is a 3 CCD chip (A MUST!) Panasonic PV-GS120 (the 150 has replaced it). It has a few drawbacks, no deal breakers though. It has a cinema-like mode, not true 16:9 shooting. It does have a stereo mike input which, with 2 Radio Shack lavaliere mono mikes and a stereo y connector, works pretty good for interview subjects.

    Before buying any Mini-DV get the manual from Amazon, you can download them usually.

    Before you know it people will beat down a path to your door if you have a good idea. I have a proven Emmy winning director assembling mine, the book already optioned and a sponsorship from Sugoi apparel

    I also smoked for 20 years, am slightly overweight and am 39 years old. No one is more surprised than me.
  • Have you considered just buying obsolete VHS camcorders from garbage sales/flea markets/eBay, running them until they die, and then disposing of their corpses? If you're justing making recordings for your own viewing, ye olde analogue video tape should be good enough quality.

  • underwater camera? (Score:2, Informative)

    by zogger (617870)
    I do not have a digital video camera recommendation, but as far as tough goes, the best film camera I own was designed as an underwater camera (low-end hanimex, forget the model, buried in the junk someplace right now). Tough as nails, takes great snapshots on dry land and looks "normal" as cameras go, ie, no weird plexi housing over a regular camera. Perhaps look at those manufacturers who make such UW cameras.

  • sony vx-2100 (Score:2, Informative)

    by Advill (732652)
    the sony vx2100 is a rock solid camera. extremely sturdy. i have one and i love it.
  • I hope you got the extended warranty on the cameras you have used in the past. I would think you could almost ignore the toughness of the hardware if you could get it replaced/repaired fast enough under the warranty coverage. You'd probably end up with a new camera every 12 months, but only pay for it every 3-4 years.
  • How about one that has a way to dump my old Hi-8 footage into it?

    I've been looking for one with RCA or SVideo in, but can't find one anywhere. I didn't want to have to buy a eyeTV or some separate deal for something I expect to use once. Any suggestions?

  • What exactly would the difference between rugged and replaceable do for you? For example (and this is purely numbers out of my butt, like most /. numbers/poll results/stats/etc) if a ruggedized camera that will last 4-5 years costs $1500, but a cheap one that you can get for $250 lasts 10-14 months before replacement is needed, can you budget to just do the annual replacement? I'd also think that camcorder tech has a trend sorta similar to the computer world - wait a year and its either half price or twi

  • Ask on DVInfo (Score:3, Informative)

    by angle_slam (623817) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @08:27PM (#12877749)
    I'll agree with the other poster who said /. is not the place to ask A/V questions. Try DV Info [dvinfo.net], which is a DV site frequented by a lot of professionals.

  • Digital solid-state camera (Score:3, Interesting)

    by maitas (98290) on Wednesday June 22 2005, @09:51AM (#12880876) Homepage
    If you don't need any fancy feature, you will be better of with a cheap digital camera that have no moving parts on it.
    The Olympus Stylus Verve looks grate. It's water resistant, cheat, very nice overall. It's movie mode have a 320x200 pixels resolution (half a mini-DV camera) and can store 21 minutes of movies in a 512MB card...
    If you need better resolution camera, you can get the Sony Cyber-shot® DSC-S40 that has a 640x480 movie mode with 30fps, but it's not water resistant...

    Any digital camera will last far longer than a camera that have moving parts...
    • But be careful - most cheap/consumer DV/MiniDV decks use the same transport mechanism as found in consumer/prosumer cameras and fail quickly. You want a real VTR....
      • No, you want a couple cheap cameras to do play back from. If you've recorded on a consumer camera, a pro level deck will do nothing for you but cost more money.

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