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Organizational Practices of an IT Department? 231

Posted by Cliff from the life-in-the-digital-trenches dept.
fbg111 asks: "I've recently joined a company, a regional airline, with an IT department that has grown organically (ie in response to immediate, rapid-growth-driven need, rather than according to any organizational plan). In the past five years the company has come to rely on IT, specifically the web team, for about 3/4's of its revenue. However, this unstructured growth has caused some problems, like this one: the lack of defined career paths and clear promotion 'triggers' makes techs feel 'stuck' in dead-end situations, and we tend to lose good people who find more transparent advancement opportunities elsewhere. I've recently joined the new CIO's task force for putting together a plan that addresses the immediate problem of defining career advancement paths and payscales. Does Slashdot have any ideas on this subject?"
"I'm particularly interested in industry best practices that cover providing breadth and depth of experience and training, dual (or more) career tracks that allow techs to go the management route or the technical guru route, and aligning promotion triggers and career paths with IT department & corporate goals, and anything else relevant to the matter. Do any of you have anything in particular to recommend?"
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Organizational Practices of an IT Department? More

Organizational Practices of an IT Department?

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  • Sure fire solution (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mr Pippin ( 659094 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:52PM (#13846624)
    Unionize! That always fixes things.

    • Re:Sure fire solution (Score:5, Informative)

      by CastrTroy ( 595695 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:39PM (#13847016)
      I think that in many senses, unions have outgrown their usefullness. In times (or places) where there are no laws governing hours of work, minimum rates of pay, or safety of working conditions, unions can serve a good purpose. However, once they achieve those goals, they usually continue fighting for more and more. Eventually, they start asking for too much, or taking measures that affect the business in a very negative way, such as multi-week, or multi-month strikes. The NHL lost an entire hockey season due to a strike. And almost all the players are millionaires. Many times, employees don't even want to go on strike, but have to because the majority rules. Even if they are strongly against it, then end up getting pushed into it.
      • How many union workers does it take to change a light bulb?

        Five... You got a problem with that?
        • Don't laugh ... in my workplace (EE dept in a public university), the breaker boxes are locked by union demand, so that if you blow a breaker, you have no choice except to call maintenance and have them send somebody up. When this happens, it usually takes them an hour to arrive. So a roomful of electrical engineers, who could probably design their own circuit breaker if necessary, are sitting on their thumbs waiting for a union lackey to show up with the key ...
          • i would question why there are either so few cuircuits or so many breakers getting blown that this is a huge issue.
            • They were installed by union electricians. If they designed the system in such a way that it was nearly maintenence free, they would be cutting off all of the union electricians who would otherwise be hired to maintain it.

      • Re:Not True... (Score:2, Informative)

        by xp_fetchbeer ( 599818 ) *
        The NHL lost an entire season due to a LOCKOUT. Most of the owners (presumably) are millionaires. And you are right, the players were pushed into it - by the owners who locked them out.

        • Re:Not True... (Score:3, Informative)

          by Miniluv ( 165290 )
          Thats an absurdly narrow minded view, and ignores the onerous demands the players were putting on the owners. It even further ignores the fact that the league, and most of the individual teams, were losing money due to these demands.
          The real reason it was termed a lockout and not a strike is that the owners moved first in order to set the terms of the debate. The players union was set to strike, the owners just scheduled their press conference first.

      • The NHL was on strike? (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        The NHL was on strike?
      • Don't blame the union for the NHL lockout/strike. That labor dispute can be summed up as the owners one day woke up and realized "Wait... hockey isn't as popular as other sports. We can't have money vaults like Scrooge McDuck if we pay the players what we agreed to pay them. We need to find a way out of these contracts."

        Don't offer someone a contract for more than you feel comfortable paying them. Don't blame the players for accepting an overvalued offer.

  • ahem... not a dupe! not a dupe! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by yagu ( 721525 ) * <{yayagu} {at} {gmail.com}> on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:52PM (#13846625) Journal

    This ilk of article is a tired saw, but its frequent appearance here at slashdot may be a sign of the times, i.e., the problem may be getting worse (I doubt it's getting better).

    The bottom line is you, as an individual, fend for yourself first and foremost. If IT is messed up, management doesn't seem to care, or know how to do their job(s) that's not something you can fix. Decide what you want and need, weigh those criteria against what you experience in your job and management. If it's bad, it's unlikely to improve (much).

    You, as an employee, owe the company little other than doing the work expected of you. (I used to be much more gung ho pro-company... but that's another and long story.) Businesses today don't view employees as valuable resources, nor do they care what upheaval they toss employees' ways. If you want something from your job and they say okay, get it in writing. Be suspicious. Be paranoia. The next visit to your desk from your manager may be a stroll to the front door.

    Most companies aren't interested in grooming, triggers, etc., they're interested in their bottom line. Unfortunately they don't (typically) associate healthy career paths and directions with business performance. That you've been "tasked" (hate that word) by joining the CIOs task force is scant evidence of addressing the problem (I know, people will ask "what else do you expect them to do?"). But a company that doesn't "get it" isn't going to "get it" by organizing some CIO appointed task force.

    As I mentioned, I used to have more faith in business and companies. Under the auspices of cutting costs, improving the bottom line, "right-sizing", (and very little mention of better customer service), articles are popping up almost every day about companies "making adjustments", but if you read a bit closer and between some of the lines, there are a whole lot of bent-over employees being victimized in these scenarios.

    I'd be inclined to be more sympathetic and say "business is business" and companies have to make hard decisions, but when a recent article showed the average ratio of pay for CEOs compared to their employees increased to 431 times (did you hear that?, 431 times!) the pay of their employees it started to feel wrong (actually it'd started to feel wrong quite a while ago). When CEOs are getting this disproportianately higher compensation than their employees, I expect better performance numbers from businesses. I haven't seen that. Aside: Heads up, since you've joined an airline... make sure you keep the jackscrews lubed!)

    • make sure you keep the jackscrews lubed!

      No shit. You know it will be a bad day when your tail section [ntsb.gov] shears off.
    • This ilk of article is a tired saw, but its frequent appearance here at slashdot may be a sign of the times, i.e., the problem may be getting worse (I doubt it's getting better).

      What you said is what's leading to my question. How many companies are "good" with the IT dept. example valuing the employees, realizing the importance of IT etc compare to the bad IT shops? Since I'm a semi newbie, I only have one job to go on, my current job and I say its more negative than positive. My company sees the impo

      • Re:ahem... not a dupe! not a dupe! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by exi1ed0ne ( 647852 ) <exile.pessimists@net> on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:34PM (#13846966) Homepage
        I think what he was getting at is that the CIO's main job is to provide "vision" to the company. Any "C" level worth their salt should already know what the department should look like. Pulling together a "task force" to address the issue is in my experience:

        1) a smokescreen to make you believe they care and make you feel "empowered" so you do more work or not quit

        2) The CIO is an idiot and looking for "vision" from subordinates

        3) a "shiney thing" to distract you from something unpleasant on the horizon.

        "C" levels set the tone for the organization, and there is very little that the guys/gals in the trenches can do to fix poor management. Keep your parachute handy at all times, and realize there is no such thing as a 20yr job anymore.
        • Any CIO worth his salt will pull together a task for to either look for better ideas than he already has (or improvements to them), or to gain consensus by having the task force look at all alternatives.

          2) The CIO is an idiot and looking for "vision" from subordinates

          I don't understand your comment. Any C level that is not utilizing the talents of the staff reporting to them is an idiot. Idiot CIOs are the ones that blindly follow the "I've done this for 20 years" path.

    • Re:ahem... not a dupe! not a dupe! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jtwJGuevara ( 749094 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:22PM (#13846857)
      Most companies aren't interested in grooming, triggers, etc., they're interested in their bottom line. Unfortunately they don't (typically) associate healthy career paths and directions with business performance. That you've been "tasked" (hate that word) by joining the CIOs task force is scant evidence of addressing the problem (I know, people will ask "what else do you expect them to do?"). But a company that doesn't "get it" isn't going to "get it" by organizing some CIO appointed task force.

      It's been my experience that this type of thing is simply a talking point. By organizing a committee/task force/other_buzzword, it gives the impression something is happening since all these wonderous ideas will get floated around a nice stack of papers in the form a report will end up on someone's desk and floating around by email. Unfortunately, 1/5 of the people who should read it won't because they have too many other things to be working on and of those 1/5 who do it will be very unlikely that someone in that bunch will do something or has the power to do something. All the while your CIO/high level manager can tell all other high level managers "We have a task force charged with reporting to us $XYZ analysis. Aren't I doing a good job".

      If this were a high priority to your CIO, he/she would interview some key folks, including a few of you developer/admin types and then take action immediately instead of forming some bureaucratic committee who generates a report that gets debated on by management for months.

      My 2cents at least. Sorry if I sound negative, but I just find committees to be an utter waste of everyone's time and really just a facade for the person who calls for it.

    • make sure you keep the jackscrews lubed!

      Always sound advice.
    • "You, as an employee, owe the company little other than doing the work expected of you."

      And when addressing this issue IS the work expected of you, should you respond with "that's not my problem"?

      --
      Flamefest!
    • But a company that doesn't "get it" isn't going to "get it" by organizing some CIO appointed task force.

      I have the same sort of skepticism at this. Who knows, maybe this will work, but a lot of the problem with these things tend to be the Dilbertian business tactics and managerial strategies, and a "task force" seems in line with the sort of attitudes and actions that cause these problems.

      How about treating your IT people like people? Talk to them. Do something nice now and then. Appreciate the work t

    • I think you've pretty much nailed it. Perhaps a slightly different viewpoint would be to think of yourself as a one-person company. Your sole obligation, just like all other companies, is to maximize shareholder value. Naturally, you get to define what's valuable to your shareholders, since that's you. It could be money, it could be free time, whatever. With this viewpoint, you don't need to have any faith in the motivations of your employer. You just try to get as much of what you value for as long a
    • Most companies aren't interested in grooming, triggers, etc., they're interested in their bottom line. Unfortunately they don't (typically) associate healthy career paths and directions with business performance.
      Actually, most of the companies I have worked for do have good career paths.... except, always, for the IT department. Hell, I work for an IT company and we do not have well defined career paths, unless you're in management or sales.
    • The bottom line is you, as an individual, fend for yourself first and foremost. If IT is messed up, management doesn't seem to care, or know how to do their job(s) that's not something you can fix. Decide what you want and need, weigh those criteria against what you experience in your job and management. If it's bad, it's unlikely to improve (much).

      Thanks for responding, I submitted this article, and I see I may need to clarify things a bit. First, I'm not complaining, I'm happy to be here, it's a great

  • Talk with the IT staff. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CyricZ ( 887944 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:53PM (#13846631)
    Talk directly with each and every member of the IT staff, first as a group and then in private. Find out what they want. Find out what they expect. Collect all the data you can directly from them. Then discuss your findings with the CIO.

    After you come up with a preliminary plan, again, discuss it with the staff. Get their input. Don't just come up with a plan and then implement it. Use all the feedback you can get, so that you create something that benefits everyone (potentially).

    • Re:Talk with the IT staff. (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Talk directly with each and every member of the IT staff, first as a group and then in private. Find out what they want. Find out what they expect. Collect all the data you can directly from them. Then discuss your findings with the CIO.

      Shitcan those that gave you the best ideas in private. Take credit for those ideas. Take the humdrum and promote them underneath you. Tell the CIO what he wants to hear.

      Make sure that the typical employee has a very locked down machine. No IM, No WMP. Keystroke lo
    • Talk directly with each and every member of the IT staff, first as a group and then in private.

      ...claim to be a straight-shooter, and that whatever you say stays in that room. Then go about firing anyone who didn't claim that it was their lifelong dream to work for your company as well as anyone who voiced any criticism of your company.

      (I've seen it happen. Had a manager once who thought it was a good idea to fire anyone who didn't think their current job was his/her "dream job", thereby ensuring only m

      • Indeed, that's the sort of situation that takes care of itself. The managers are without the basic skills to manage a firm, and thus the labour leaves. And without talented labour, a firm is nothing. It may struggle on for a while before dying, but it will eventually die unless the situation is corrected.

  • Cob A System (Score:4, Insightful)

    by geomon ( 78680 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:53PM (#13846634) Homepage Journal
    There are plenty of compensation programs in the industry to copy. Find one that looks the most like your organization and copy it. Change whatever areas you feel don't suit your particular organization (how promotions are handled, vesting, etc.). Get a good HR professional in the discussion to avoid opening up a can of whoopass on your company by how you handle benefits.

    • Re:Cob A System (Score:3, Informative)

      by fbg111 ( 529550 )
      There are plenty of compensation programs in the industry to copy. Find one that looks the most like your organization and copy it

      Thanks, that's exactly the response I was hoping for, though you wouldn't happen to know of any in particular, would you? Even Google isn't very helpful on this. We've found some general info on this on Salary.com, in terms of jobs and roles and salaries that we can use, but I'm hoping for more detailed suggestions from /.'ers.

  • What I would want. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jellomizer ( 103300 ) * on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:54PM (#13846639)
    Well how to feel like you not in a dead end job.

    If you do good work you get better pay, also the longer you work the better you should get paid. This way we keep the most salt of the earth of the workers, if they can get better pay elsewhere then they will go there.

    Titles and advantages to the titles. If the person doesn't want to go into management positions they still should get titles that represent their status. Sr. Programmer or whatever. Besides just giving the name there should be some benefits of earning the title, other then pay, they should have higher priority on what projects they want to do, depending on their status. If they have 10 years of experience and have done a good job for you in the past they should get earlier pick on the more fun jobs and leave the more mundane to the less experience people who need experience (But depending on the person you may be surprised what jobs are quickly taken up early)

    Say in policy as people advance they say in company IT policy should have more weight.

    Job Security, the higher position the more secure you job should be from layoffs.

    Improved Benefits, Like allowing to work at home during normal hours, Flex Hours, More vacation time. With ¾ of the business they should also get some commission on their work.

    Constant training, allow them if they choose to keep their skills up with modern technology, that way you are not stuck with software on a dead platform with a near dead language and IT staff who is afraid of changing because they don't have training on newer tech.

    The main trick is to figure out what do you want in a job and break it into priorities and the higher you are the more you get.

    • Re:What I would want. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Rob the Bold ( 788862 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @04:03PM (#13847244)
      For most people, needs have a heirarchy. And this applies to a job, too. You don't need to worry about providing an advancement path if the environment is lousy, pay is bad or company policies suck. Needs are heirarchical. You often find the Maslow pyramid of needs translated into "job-related satisfiers" like this:

      1. Physical: Pleasant workplace, Adequate compensation, time off, commitment to worker efficiency (up-to-date equimpent and methods).

      2. Safety: Seniority, Finge Benefits, Good Supervisors, Sound Policies and Practices.

      3. Social: Opportunities to interact with others, team spirit, nice co-workers.

      4. Esteem: Symbols, Awards, Challenge, Advancement and Decistion sharing

      5. Self-realization: Planning your work, Freedom, Opportunities for Growth, Opportunities for creativity.

      Many people will say that their needs are in a different heirarchy than this, but I suspect the usual the case is that their lower-level needs are met and are therefore out-of-mind. I doubt that IT people are a different species than other humans, despite what it seems like at times.

      Businesses often fail at providing level 2 safety -- especially in terms of the business being sustainable in the long run. If you're always 2 weeks away from unemployment, it just won't matter that you have a career-growth path.

      Bottom line: If you can't provide safety and comfort for your employees in the form of a solid business that's not going to lay them off at the first signs of earnings downturn or outsource them to India to maximize shareholder value, then stuff like career paths just doesn't matter.

      Source: I cribbed this from A.H.Maslow, Motivation and Personality, 2nd ed., 1970.

    • "With ¾ of the business they should also get some commission on their work."

      They don't generate ¾ of the business, they process the orders for ¾ of the business. Yes, IT depts can have a huge influence on purchases -- but it's not nearly the same as commission-based sales, where one person is individually responsible for generating x revenue. Instead, the collective efforts of the IT team support the entire online sales function.

      So, commissions in this case would be more like profit-sha

  • Incoming! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by qwerty shrdlu ( 799408 )
    If the IT department is really bringing in 3/4 of an airline's revenue, either IT or the airline are going to be spun off.

    • Re:Incoming! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by AuMatar ( 183847 )
      Most likely, it just means 3/4 of tickets are bought online. When is the last time you actually went to the airport to buy one?
    • It's the IT department generating the revenue. When was the last time you booked a flight in a travel center or talked to a customer representative? Thought so...
  • A. Employees bring in knowlege and train themselves on the rest.

    B. Accept task requests

    C. If too many task requests then
    1. Deny addtional requests
    2. Have users fight among themselves to determine what is highest priority

    D. Work until you feel like going home. (if you like your job this may be late)

    E. Be criticized for when you come in, despite having worked until x:xx AM previous night.

    F. When time permits (often on employees on time) develop or research powerful new tools that make everyon

  • Don't say it with flowers. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by McNally ( 105243 ) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .yllancmm.> on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:58PM (#13846674) Homepage
    I hate to sound mercenary, but if you want your employees to feel valued and appreciated, say it with money. Other gestures can be very nice, but in the end most people come to realize that money is the only metric by which businesses measure value. If the IT department is as important to the revenue of the company as you say it is (which I find a little hard to believe, but let's assume you're right..) then the employees should share in the company's success.

    • Please don't listen to people like this -- they are completely wrong. Advancement, growth, respect and other quality-of-life factors have a larger bearing on employee satisfaction and retention than sheer dollar value. This is particularly true for older, more experienced staff.

      Money's nice, and it does play a factor. But giving people a decent amount of vacation (and letting them take it), giving them control over their environment and work practices, giving them funding to go to conferences, take cla

  • Is there anywhere for them to actually advance to? (Score:5, Informative)

    by CyricZ ( 887944 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @02:58PM (#13846675)
    Indeed, it sounds like the problem may be more a case of there just not being anywhere for the staff to advance to. It would be pointless, and probably more problematic than beneficial, to artificially create managerial positions just to make the staff feel better.

    Rather than waste money on useless managerial positions, give each staff member a raise. They'll get the financial benefits of having a higher position within the firm, while at the same time keeping a structure that is currently fairly functional, and without the overhead of excessive management.

  • My IT Department, Episode II (Score:5, Funny)

    by Quiet_Desperation ( 858215 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:00PM (#13846689)
    Our IT department hides from us using cloaking technology that accidently arose from their attempts to develop rad Doom 3 levels using genetic algorithms. You need to track one of them down with an infrared scope, and even if you do you don't get any computer help unless you know the secret handshake, the secret mystery haiku and the secret favorite quote from Blake's 7.

    And then there's the oral sex.

    *shudder*

    We think there's some sort of hierarchy with an advancement/promotion plan involving a Lovecraftian quagmire of Thunderdomes and quatloos, but scientific instrumentality can only accomplish so much.

  • I found that for companies that depends a lot on the technical staff, no matter what title or 'promotion' you spin, it's still the same role. The real techie guy almost never wanna be a manager of any sort. Think about it, like any other thing it's the 'leverage' that a lot of companies rank employees - the higher the management (hence the responsibility?) the better the benefit/pay..etc. I'd tends to think if the company give the employee a stake at the company (real stock, options), that is much better

  • Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:01PM (#13846692) Homepage
    I've recently joined a company, a regional airline, with an IT department that has grown organically (ie in response to immediate, rapid-growth-driven need, rather than according to any organizational plan). In the past five years the company has come to rely on IT, specifically the web team, for about 3/4's of its revenue.

    How the heck does the web-site of an airline account for 75% of revenue? Do you mean that most of your ticket sales come from your web-site? Or do you mean the company is focusing on selling hats and T-Shirts from its web-site and isn't actually doing any flights? (Granted, with the cost of fuel lately, it might be a better solution than actually flying.)
    I'm particularly interested in industry best practices that cover providing breadth and depth of experience and training, dual (or more) career tracks that allow techs to go the management route or the technical guru route, and aligning promotion triggers and career paths with IT department & corporate goals, and anything else relevant to the matter

    Geez. I don't recall ever seeing such a formalized "choose your own career-adventure things".

    There is no "you rolled blue, advance three steps towards tech-guru", or "you rolled yellow, advance to middle management".

    I've worked for people who used to code for a very short period of time, but moved into management. I've known people who coded for a very long time and switched to management. And I've known the old-school holdouts like me who have no interest in becoming management.

    If you want to be a tech guru, well, you'll just simply have to be more knowledgeable and skilled than most people. Knowledge of arcana is amust for guru status.

    If you want to go into management, start reading books on that or enroll in your MBS program.

    Sadly, in my experience, nobody is going to manage your career more than you will.
    • In what way am I friggin' trolling here???

      I've worked in the industry for 10+ years, and *I've* never seen what the poster was asking for.

    • I've worked for people who used to code for a very short period of time, but moved into management. I've known people who coded for a very long time and switched to management. And I've known the old-school holdouts like me who have no interest in becoming management.

      If you want to be a tech guru, well, you'll just simply have to be more knowledgeable and skilled than most people. Knowledge of arcana is amust for guru status.

      If you want to go into management, start reading books on that or enroll in your MB

  • Get real (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sane? ( 179855 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:02PM (#13846706)
    Is this company exactly as you paint it?

    In my experience people don't leave because someone hasn't defined a 'transparent career path', but rather because there is NO career path, because their efforts aren't recognised and rewarded, and because they smell the stench of collapse just around the corner.

    Forget 'industry best practice'. Forget asking Slashdot. Try asking those concerned what really matters, then delivering on it.

    You won't find the answer in the failures of others, chart a new path that is in some way true. If you can't, resign.

  • Simple (Score:3, Funny)

    by kin_korn_karn ( 466864 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:02PM (#13846712) Homepage
    Your salary grows 2-4% every year until the CFO decides to outsource your job to India for 1/10th the cost.

    That is the future of IT.

    • Re:Simple (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jellomizer ( 103300 ) *
      That is called a COLA (Cost of Living Adjustment). But now the Indea migrations is starting to slow down, and some companies are getting american workers again. What the out sourcing did was this. It helped clear out the bottom feeders who just went into IT becuase of the Bouble, but didn't have many skills, Outsourcing basicly gave all the annoying jobs to other people for lesspay. Also it made Highschool guidance consulers nervice in recommending IT. So in the future the demmand for Good American IT wi

  • Joel On Software (Score:5, Informative)

    by camt ( 162536 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:02PM (#13846713) Homepage
    Joel Spolsky has a few things to say about that. I think the following is prerequisite reading for those on your committee.


    Take it with whatever size grain of salt you want, but it is interesting food for thought for those in your position.

  • Career Routes in IT (Score:3, Insightful)

    by micromuncher ( 171881 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:03PM (#13846716) Homepage
    Recommendations... about IT people and career paths?

    Given the trend of most companies to attempt to outsource IT, I'd suggest that. Outsource all of the web development because it is not the company's core business; they are after all a regional airline, not a web development shop. This co-source can support best practices and have a more defined career path.

    That's right! Lay them all off. It also moves them from being an operating expense to a capital one. Human resources are costly.

    Excuse me? Job protection? What is that? I have worked for so many companies that promote "technical people", usually engineers, into management paths that Do not want to be there, and Are not qualified to be there. So why would any web developer worth his weight in Javascript want to go from a creative hands on process to a managed hands off one?

    Very few people in IT/IS these days expect employer loyalty. Allowing IT/IS people to somehow advance into management is about as rational as all geologists and accountants managing and designing all the software at the oil company I work at.
  • But let me know when you find something, implement it, have it fail, get laid off, get hired as a contractor somewhere else, get laid off again, and finally get hired by Google. Then you can tell me how Google does it...
  • How does a Regional airline get 3/4th of its revenue from the web developer group?

    I think what he meant is that they get 3/4th of the reservations via online..

  • SAGE/USENIX (Score:3, Informative)

    by Miniluv ( 165290 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:05PM (#13846734) Homepage
    SAGE (the System Administrators Guild) has published 4 levels of system administration, which is probably a good start for developing a track system. We use it here to quantify jr/admin/sr type levels. They also have some good documents on hiring practices, interviewing, along with their comprehensive salary surveys.
    Other than that its also important to distinguish management and supervisory positions that make sense for the size of the group. Then you can chart a course for both the folks who want to head towards leadership roles, versus the pure techs who never want a single soul reporting to them.
  • Only partly humorous.

    1) If you don't have senior leadership buy-in on this reorg, you're dead. Period. And, regretfully, oftentimes the CIO doesn't count as senior leadership. [woodstockwire.com]

    2) Pay scales and advancement are good things to have, but I wonder if this is the root cause of the defection. How is the organization structured? Is a tech lead a road to nowhere? It might be, if the group is divided functionally. A true siloed organization ain't any good either, because of the risk of becoming an insect (i.e.,

  • Jet Blue? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Mr.Intel ( 165870 ) <mrintel173@yaho[ ]om ['o.c' in gap]> on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:07PM (#13846750) Homepage Journal
    I interviewed for a position in the web team of a regional airline that gets 75% of its revenue from the web, has grown organically, and where their guys feel 'stuck'. You don't happen to work for Jet Blue, do you?

    When they didn't call me back for a second interview (I had almost no IIS experience) I was somewhat relieved. The biggest reason was that I knew it would be a rough few years working for them while they worked out their issues. Their problem (which sounds suspiciously like your problem) is not just that you don't have a clearly defined organizational plan, but that you let the business drive the department. With three-fourths of your revenue coming out of the web site, *everyone* watches the daily and even hourly sales numbers. When there's glitches in the system, *everyone* from the sales guys to the CEO knows about it and *your* butt is on the line. Structure a business plan for the IT group. Lay out simple and clear lines of responsibilty, disaster mitigation plans, and (to get to the heart of your question) career paths. Make sure that all layers of managment understand that IT can be subject to forces outside of its control (network/power outages and acts of God anywhere in the world affect everyone else). Have set goals for each employee and set rewards for meeting them. Yearly bonuses, raises, and other perks will go a long way to the retention you seek.

    I know it isn't the specific advice you were looking for, but you're not going to find that kind of answer on Slashdot. You know your business better than us. You know your IT needs, and only you can fix it. Start with the basics (career paths, goals/rewards, clear lines of responsibility) and the rest will fall into place. Good luck!

    • Re:Jet Blue? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by garyrich ( 30652 )
      Probably Jet Blue, maybe Skywest. Doesn't really matter which really.

      1) try to convince your people that you are not going bankrupt like all other airlines, that the pension/401k is safe and their benefits are not about to be cut. Yuo can't do that because all those things are probably going to happen. That's a problem.

      2) Try to convince them that their jobs are not going to be outsourced to Mumbai. don't get the CIO to do that - he's aware of corporate's long term cost reduction plans and he would be lyi
  • Before I acquired my most recent job, I worked for a company where I was in a similar situation. No raise/bonus/promotion in sight, etc. More importantly, however, I didn't feel like what I was doing was important.

    Companies need defined ways of moving ahead. Performance reviews, raises to acknowledge good work, yearly bonuses for the staff - all great ways to help people feel motivated to go the extra mile. But in addition I would argue that you have to make their job feel needed - like they are the only

  • Pay (Score:2, Funny)

    by BlightShadow ( 678579 )
    Psy us, the IT workers out there, whatever we ask for. For fear that all your systems shall come to a grinding halt, and us in the back room having a party.
  • Well first, you'll need to "leverage" something. Actually, a lot of things (sometimes everything). Then, "where the rubber meets the road" is what you should aim for. You might have to be more than just "efficient". You'll need to be "pro-active". And then, "at the end of the day" you go play a round of golf with Billingsley and Schlopperman and find yourself heading a "task force". Wait ... that's where you are now? Forget it, you're hosed.

  • Shake and Bake (Score:3, Insightful)

    by metoc ( 224422 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:11PM (#13846783)
    Design a new IT structure and convert over. Very harsh and un-popular but it is probably the only way. Large organically grown structures tend to have huge inertia.

    With almost 100% certainty their are many positions where the skill set of the person have evolved to fit the position and vis-versa. No other individual has the skill set to fill the position and the individual in that position can't fill another position because of his/hers skill set is unique (read diverse and yet incomplete). Their direct managers refuse to give the individuals up because they fear for the worst, and the individuals don't have the right skill set mix to get out. Catch 22, and you have inertia.

  • Levels and job definitions (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hellfire ( 86129 ) <deviladvNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:13PM (#13846798) Homepage
    The first thing is to definite what jobs you have there. Web designer vs network engineer vs help desk level 2 or whatever you have. List out their responsibilities and required skills. Do this like HR, but make it seem important, don't over do it It's important to define the role as best you can and identify if the job that person is either completely unique or can be taken over by someone else. For example, if you have one DBA who manages the database for your system, and no one else really has his responsibilities or his skills then that's a specific job. If some guy is responsible for keeping an eye the email server but 5 other guys could do it, then his role is more broad, that of a generic IT tech.

    Once you have a definition of their jobs, then create levels. Four levels is typical. Each position has levels for which for which the level gets both more responsibilities and more pay. First level is entry level. Second level is "certified" in that they've proven themselves over months or even up to a year as being good employee. 3rd level is senior in that they know the processes well, are fairly independent, and have high quality of work. 4th level are those few shining examples of great employees who do outstanding work on many different levels and would be very hard to replace.

    Create paths to different groups to. For example, in a lot of IT departments, the path from a department that helps with desktop leads to network or server support as advancement.

    Create requirements for each level to move from level 1 to 2. Some people use written tests to grade someone skills, others simply use management review. Some require a specific certification in a computer technology.

    Finally, make sure everyone in IT starts out as level 1 and create a short term plan to have everyone move through the levels. This will help you figure out who's worth holding onto, and reward them appropriately. Be Prepared for a little backlash from those who don't warrant promotion, but if they don't warrant it, you have documentation as to why not.

    And make sure you have guidelines for how managers should document everyone under their pervue so that they have a more standardized way of grading people and don't go off doing their own thing. When one manager grades easy and one grades hard, the people under the harsh manager feel left out while the easy guys get the money.
  • "Career paths" are the sort of beauracracy and red tape that big companies waste their time talent and money on without getting anything useful in return.
  • "the lack of defined career paths and clear promotion 'triggers' makes techs feel 'stuck' in dead-end situations, and we tend to lose good people who find more transparent advancement opportunities elsewhere."

    I've come to figure out thats just about every job everywhere.

    Start your own business. Thats the only way anyone ever truly gets ahead.

    I'm starting several right now. One is a software support company, just mostly fixing home internet connections and cleaning crapware. You may think big deal, but it
    • Is that what you tell your prospective employees during their interviews? Methinks your success in business will be severely limited if that is the case. So, who are you lying to, us or your employees? Hmm?

  • From personal experience... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HerculesMO ( 693085 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:21PM (#13846849)
    Advancement doesn't really have to be attached in work -- it can be outside of work. I started my position as a systems administrator, and was promoted within a year to systems administrator II. The change in title was arbitrary, as I was doing the same work, however I had a few bonuses that were department specific. The biggest bonus for me, was a bigger and more flexible training budget for me. That means if I wanted to learn something and it was IT related (not job related), I had a budget I could use to do what I wanted. So we are a Windows only shop... I have chosen to learn Linux even though it has no bearing on my job.

    The rationale behind this is pretty simple -- a person gets complacent, and especially in IT, because they feel they are going to be outdated, or they aren't performing duties that will get them noticed in a future job. While your employer's job is to keep you working at THEIR company, they can't remove the possibility of you working somewhere else -- and the career 'path' at a company has to take this into consideration else there will be a lot of turnover in your IT department. Web programmers that are doing one thing, constantly and not being able to use and learn new technologies (because if it ain't broke, don't fix it) they won't feel the need to stay at that company, even though they are stellar at their jobs.

    Bonuses are good too. Stock options, Christmas bonuses, paid holidays, and a big one that's often overlooked -- gym memberships -- are all very important. Little expenditures can reap huge rewards for an IT department because it keeps employees happy. As IT personnell, I have personally found working in environments that are laid back (let me wear a backwards hat, t shirt and shorts to work!) are the best. With hours being spent in front of the computer, they should be comfortable, and sitting in the best chairs, have the best keyboards and mice, nice monitors, etc. It's something that other departments SHOULD envy because let's face it -- if your company is relying on them to make the money, then your company is going to want to make them feel wanted. It works much the same for sales people in ANY field -- do your job well and you get more perks than you can imagine.

    So if your company can offer title changes, personal training budgets, maybe some catered food once in a while, free tickets to see some ballteam playing, the best equipment, ergonomic chairs, etc... these small expenditures will go a long way to keeping the staff you have happy and working hard for YOU and not somebody else.

    I should mention one piece of advice I learned from a friend that is a manager, and that is exceptional in his field and his employees love him. What he said is something like this:

    "Your job as a manager for your employees is to assign them the work to do, see they do it satisfactorily, take the blame FOR them if they fuck up, and then tell them to stop fucking up in PRIVATE. And when time comes, you fight tooth and nail to get every penny you can out of the higher ups to make sure they get the best raises they can get."

    There is no faster way to lose employees when if they make a single screwup, the world comes crashing down on them, believe me they are going to look to leave fast. It makes me regret leaving MY last job, because it's the situation I'm in right now. So on a side note... if anybody's looking for a Windows SysAdmin.... :)

    Good luck to you.
  • I know you are looking for solutions, but the reality is that you are now experienceing the real world of IT. Many companies are simply not nor never will be structured by-the-book, and things like "defined career paths", "structured promotion 'triggers'" and the like are often more pipe dreams and corporate-speak than reality.

    First and foremost, thicken your skin and be prepared for either no change or having to move elsewhere to get a change. While your IT organization may improve (and I certainly hope i
  • From what I've seen, stocking free M&Ms goes a long way to job satisfaction.

  • Promoting talent? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kernelistic ( 160323 )
    From a business perspective, if someone is doing a job very well, why on Earth would you want to promote them out of that position?

    Promoting talent should be in the form of having first-dibs on projects and a healthy bonus package, unless the person's skills can be adequately used in another position and a suitable replacement has been found.

    My $0.02...

  • Managing Your Own Career... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Vexler ( 127353 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @03:32PM (#13846949) Journal
    This question brings up the issue of managing one's career in IT versus just "going with the flow". It is true that good, talented IT workers will feel demoralized and demotivated when they perceive no upward mobility within an organization. It is also true, from an organizational view, that hiring out of short-term, knee-jerk reactions without a good, hard view on long-term goals will eventually cripple a company to a point where noone wants to work there anymore.

    But there must be some initiative on the part of the IT worker to manage and plan his/her own career. If you feel like that the company/organization has no vision on why they should retain and give value to your position and function, you need to speak up and let them know that you bring not only short-term bandaid solutions, but long-term values to the organization. If they are not willing to listen and go to bat for you, you can either (a) create value within the context of the position, or (b) move on to another employer.

    I am currently working at a higher-ed institution where there are some very good people on my team to whom I am informally a mentor. As much as I speak up for them to get training or experience to enhance their career, they have also come up to me on their own to indicate a willingness to expand their training and knowledge. It does take two to tango.

  • IT segregation (Score:2, Insightful)

    by kamandi ( 56201 )
    Quit representing yourselves as part of an IT dept. Quit thinking of yourselves as part of an IT dept. Start representing and thinking of yourselves as part of a Regional Airline.

    The management above you, who fear and distrust IT due to their technical ignorance, smell the us vs. them that you put out (duh, of course you smell it from them too, the difference is that their smell is caused through ignorance and fear, yours is caused by disdain and a sense of geekish superiority {okay, _maybe_ your IT dept.
  • Two Words: Lean Thinking [lean.org]. Nothing else I've seen has been a better predictor or able to deliver what techs want than to adopt what the Japanese already know: North American business is wasteful. Techs hate waste, stupidity, bad software, ignorance...so much of what business is about is not delivering a quality product but delivering the *perception* of a quality product. Translation: sales & marketing.

    Lean Thinking is simply the current state of Edward Deming's work on quality, which is seen most evi
  • It's a human-nature thing. This problem has been around forever. It's the basic tension between:

    (1) the company needs a particular job doing
    (2) the worker only wants to do it for a while, then he wants to do something else (better, more senior, more interesting, whatever).
  • Speaking for state government, they noticed an extreme problem with hiring talent in the 1990's. No decent Webmaster would take a job as an IT 1, 2 or 3 due to the pay scales. So HR looked the other way and hired folks on as an IT 4...a position that is _classified_ as having staff to manage. Now we've got an IT department with 4 or 5 talented IT 4 folks, and a thick glass ceiling to advancement. You can't get _another_ IT 4 position because you don't manage, and you can't get an IT 5 position...because you
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Well... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Shads ( 4567 ) * <shadusNO@SPAMshadus.org> on Friday October 21, 2005 @04:04PM (#13847252) Homepage Journal
    ... lots of things are helpful. Here's 12...

    1) Fair pay and good raises.
    2) Certification / Education re-imbursement/paid by company.
    3) Bonuses based on company's profits (Quarterly or Half).
    4) Work from home for jobs where it's appropriate as long as they are meeting goals.
    5) Listen to them
    6) A small gym and recreation area is nice... computer work is mental, sometimes helps to be physical to work off stress.
    7) Free Food Friday (God, I miss this!) (Different restraunt each week...)
    8) Tie any holidays possible to "long weekends" or "multiple days off" so employees can get good R&R and enjoy home life.
    9) No NDA. NDAs just pisses people off and is largely unenforceable against MOST employees.
    10) Good Severance Package.
    11) Good Medical/Dental/Vision.
    12) Talk to individual employees. Find out what is important to them.

    Those are all things I've seen done to good effect that improve moral and make the employees more likely to stay.

    Basically in our society today, techs are finding out the hard way that most companies don't value you, they don't care one bit... no matter what you put into your work they're gonna screw you first chance. If the company tries to show it DOES care and provides for the employees you would be surprised how far the employees will go for you. I got layoff notice at one company I worked for 3 months in advance of the layoff, I got 2 months worth of pay as severance, and I busted my ass the last 3 months I was there for them because they weren't just trying to do me from behind at the last minute trying to milk all they could. They gave me a fair shake so I gave them the same in return... even though I knew I wouldn't be there in a couple months.

    Treat your employees as a valued asset and they'll do your company right. Sure you'll get some duds, but for the most part the good ones will return any ammount you invest into them in effort many times over if they feel the company is doing its best for them.

    But hey what do I know, I've just been through 3 buyouts, 2 department closures, 3 company closings... since 1997. You do your best for the ones who do their best for you, you do the minimum possible and jump ship asap on the ones who treat you like a disposable commodity.
  • I am in my last few weeks at an IT company. They have been going downhill for a while, and there are no incentives to do any work. Not money ($0 raise for all yet another yeat, yay) nor any "fun" doing work. Really outdated management that just count manhours of work done, not looking for quality or reusable skills. We are basically doing sales, making appointments, going out to customers, working with software that even the developers don't know how to get working, having to reimburse invoices because S/W

  • Incentives... (Score:2, Funny)

    by MaxBlue ( 538700 )
    Just offer them Free Sodas and Pizza and they are yours for life.
  • I used to work for Comair. I left over two years ago and was not entirely supprised what happened last Christmas. I'd like to think I have a few insights that are airline related and some that are universal. I'd love to have a chance to communicate with you in a better forum than Slashdot.

    ericbardes@gmail.com

    Thanks, Eric

  • Just my 2 cents (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Dewser ( 853519 )
    For 4 years I worked for a public school system. It was the first job out of college. I was in charge of the support, maintenance and planning of the IT infrastructure. It was certainly a fun job for the first couple years. The pay check was nice. But after the first 2 years or so I realized that for one, Unions suck, specially those made up of a total of 8 people in an environment of 1600 employees. And 2, no one gave a damn what time I came in or what time I left or how long it took me to fix someth
  • You aren't fooling me with this BULLSHIT.

    Defining IT "career paths" is rapidly becoming an excuse to superqualify employees.

    Superqualification is where you take a current position (or create a new similar one) and load it up with added qualifications (the most obvious one being "a college degree").

    Superqualification is being used to push down wages and establish an IT elite. The surviving elite end up working monstrous hours and (eventually) training their own overseas or H1B/L1 replacements.

    Th
  • Are you certain that you have identified the cause of your attrition problem? I'd make sure that you do exit interviews and see why folks are truly leaving. I was honest with my employer during my exit interview when I left to start my own company.

    Here are some common reasons for techies to leave a company:

    1. Too much unpaid overtime
    2. Too much overtime period
    3. Too little compensation
    4. Work too boring
    5. Work too stressful
    6. Too much red tape (at that company, they made each employee complete about 8 hours worth o

  • unconventional reply (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aeoo ( 568706 ) on Friday October 21, 2005 @11:07PM (#13850332) Journal
    Truth is, the desire for personal advancement is a sickness.

    Just think logically for a second. Imagine if everyone on the planet was justified in desiring advancement and actually got their wish? Well gee, then all the old people would be CEOs and Presidents and Popes, and all the young people would be supporting this immensely top-heavy upside down pyramid. Would this be a healthy society? Personally, I don't think so.

    Just look around and pay attention: what kind of person is advancing? Are they moral or immoral? Are they compassionate and selfless, always immediately giving away the fruits of their labor, or the one who is always looking out for the NUMERO UNO, who, at best, make a gesture of giving, while their core practice from 9 to 5 is to cheat, steal, and to spread misinformation about the real situation to all the people around them?

    Frankly, I don't see a single person, NO, HONEST, who is "deserves" advancement.

    Now, don't get me wrong! I am not against advancement in and of itself. Just try to see that advancement is not a right. There is no way to deserve it. Advancement is something that egoistic people do, by fighting for it, either openly or covertly behind the scenes, but still fighting, still forming hostile intent toward others.

    The very meaning of the word "advancement" discloses the truth. How do we recognize someone who has "advanced"? We recognize them as being advanced in relation to others, less advanced. Without this distinction, the word "advancement" has no meaning. So desire for advancement is really a hostile desire, because essentially you desire to be above others. Saying that "a person desires others to be seen as being below oneself" is just a different way to describe the very same dynamic. This is not the same as desiring to benefit the community and oneself and being spontaneously promoted by the community without actively seeking it out. A person who has been promoted by the community does not attach much sentimental weight to it, and sees it as a service to perform, rather then spoils of "hard work" to enjoy. And should the community want another person to supercede such community-promoted individual, such individual gladly gives up their top spot, because all along they had no hostile motivation to make others seem as below themselves.

    "Hard work" doesn't mean good work or moral work. Many people work hard at self-promotion and getting others to buy into their ponzy schemes. Some of them work 70 hour weeks and make big risks, and extract big rewards. That doesn't mean it's good. That doesn't mean it's right. That doesn't mean it leads to a good life.

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