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Choosing Your Next Programming Job — Perl Or .NET?
Posted by
Cliff
on Thu Nov 09, 2006 06:25 AM
from the which-is-the-better-choice-for-a-developer's-career dept.
from the which-is-the-better-choice-for-a-developer's-career dept.
Trebonius asks: "I have just received two job offers in the same day. The first was for a job coding in Perl on Linux/UNIX platforms, for a small but very cool company around 120 miles from where I live. They play Half-Life together in the off-hours and the people I've talked to there seem very happy with the job and work environment there. I'd be making smallish web systems, and I'd basically have total control over the projects on which I work. They offered me 20% more than I make now. The second offer I received is for a huge nationwide company opening an IT office a couple blocks from where I currently work. They're an all-Microsoft shop — VB, C#, .NET, SQL200*, etc. I'd be a very small cog in a very large machine. They offered me 66% more than I'm making now. Benefits are essentially identical between the companies, so that's not a big factor. I'll also give the Perl company a chance to make me another offer, but what should the threshold be? How do you folks balance the desire for a fun job with the need to pay off debt?"
Most of my work experience is in Microsoft development, though not by choice. It was my first job out of college. In my own time, I run Linux, write in PHP, Perl, MySQL, etc. I don't like developing in .NET much, but I'm used to it, and the money's good.
How do I choose? The money issue is huge, of course, and I think I'd much prefer the Perl job in terms of development preference and work environment. However, I've got the impression that Perl web development doesn't have the future potential in the professional world that .NET has. A search of Dice shows a lot more .NET jobs. Would taking the Perl job hurt my prospects in the future?"
How do I choose? The money issue is huge, of course, and I think I'd much prefer the Perl job in terms of development preference and work environment. However, I've got the impression that Perl web development doesn't have the future potential in the professional world that .NET has. A search of Dice shows a lot more .NET jobs. Would taking the Perl job hurt my prospects in the future?"
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.NET (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What's going to kill him now?
Honestly, after working in Microsoft langauges and now working as a tester for .Net applications...take the Perl job. Less money now, but if you already like working with it then the switch to .Net will have serious affects on your mental health. Especially with .Net 2.0 and VS2005. .Net 2.0 fixed a lot, but introduced some new bugs. VS2005 is just crap. The beta testers were begging MS not to release it. MS released it. They made everyone at my work u
Fun in work is important. (Score:5, Insightful)
By asking this question it seems that you value prospects over fun in what you do. If that is the case, go for the
Think about the future (Score:4, Insightful)
I've never, ever, seen a perl programmer making a huge amount of money, but with
Take the
Go for the happiness. (Score:5, Insightful)
Do what makes you happy. It'll pay off in the long-run, and you typically gain more contacts that way for future jobs.
Tricky (Score:5, Insightful)
Future prospect
Money
The perl shop sounds cool but from your research it looks like the
Got to admit - wish I had your problem (currently slaving away with Oracle Forms - shudder...
Choose your next elective surgery.. (Score:5, Funny)
Follow your heart (Score:5, Insightful)
Money != Happiness (Score:5, Insightful)
For me, being happy doing my job is worth a lot. I've recently switched from a job that paid a lot, but the environment and management really sucked. Now I'm working part-time, making about 25% of what I was making at the other job but the environment is great.
Life isn't really that long, you need to do what makes you happy, as long as you are not starving. Going to a job you don't like every day is a mistake if there are more personally rewarding alternatives.
Personally I'm not fan of ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Compensation is only a part (Score:5, Insightful)
The big company was more financially secure, carried more prestige, and offered great and solid retirement options. On the other side, it was next to impossible to affect change, my contributions (while recognized in the form of raises and titles) didn't really make a big difference to the overall picture. Even coming up with a system that saved 1.2 million a year in expenses warranted only an 'attaboy'. Because, in a company controlling 60 billion in assets, 1.2 million isn't really that big a deal!
The small company offered much more freedom, personal responsibility, and allowed me to make a direct and substantial impact on the bottom line of the whole company. I was in direct communication with the owner of the company, not to a manager with a senior manager with an executive with an executive vp to the CEO.
Best advice: Play to your strengths and go with work that motivates you. You will spend about 60% of your life at work. You should spend that time doing things that motivate, inspire, and energize you.
- Oakbox
disclaimer: I am a programmer for career coaches
Re: (Score:2)
You assume Perl programming is more fun than programming in .NET. This may be true for you but it's defintely not true for everyone. I like to develop in .NET and I like Visual Studio [1].
But I think that the main factor in determining if your job is fun is not necessarily the language and/or platform. It's what you're developing what counts. At home, I'm working on NXT#, a Mindstorms NXT library for C# [fokke.net]. It's a lot of fun and it would also be fun if I was developing the library in Perl. (of course then the
Decisions, decisions (Score:5, Funny)
[ ]
[x] Death by ooga booga
How bad is the debt? (Score:5, Informative)
This seems to be the crux of it, at least to me. Debt can seriously limit your options, now and in the future. If the debt you refer to is significant, taking the higher paying job now and resolving that issue would probably let have more freedom in picking your workplace in the future. If you are debt-free taking a job for less money but which is more interesting is surprisingly more palatable than if the bank is knocking down the door :)
Would taking the Perl job hurt my prospects ... (Score:5, Informative)
as far as I can see, the demand is not great, but quite stable
Re:Would taking the Perl job hurt my prospects ... (Score:3, Insightful)
120 miles is a far way away (Score:5, Insightful)
perl vs
Where do you see yourself in 10 years? master of a domain of programmers building large systems? go
The best thing to do is to take a couple of your close friends out tomorrow night and spend the evening getting loaded. Don't talk about this the whole time but bring up your concerns now and then. get good and drunk and when you wake up in the morning, you will know which way to go. the subconcious is a beautiful thing. seems odd but me and my friends have been doing this for major decisions for a long time now and i am still amazed out how well it works.
Management management management (Score:3, Insightful)
Even coming up with a system that saved 1.2 million a year in expenses warranted only an 'attaboy'.
Okay, either:
1) Your manager [or your chain of management] was/were completely incompetent bozos, or else
2) Unbeknownst to you, THEY took the credit [with the higher-ups] for the 1.2 million in savings, and THEY pocketed the year-end performance bonuses.
Or maybe some combination of 1) & 2) above.
Tech, size, and culture (Score:2)
The Perl shop - will you be happier there? Are you planning to move, and if so do youlike the area/can afford it? Does the company have long tem prospects? Will it likely stay this size, or grow. (Grow means more opportunities, but also that the culture may change.) Will you get to play with technology that interests you and has a future applications.
The Windows shop - same basic questions. Take out moving, add in how much you'll be working undr others/follow
I'd go with the fun (Score:5, Insightful)
Worrying about strategic choices (Score:5, Insightful)
don't worry too much about making strategic choices. I think as programmers, we all have a small nagging worry that one of the technologies we didn't pick is going to dominate the market, and cause our hardwon skills to become obsolete. But no matter how hard you study and try to keep up, that worry is never going to go away. If you pick
Pick a technology you like. If you get a job in it, fantastic. You are having fun, and you are earning money, and getting experience. Now, you can spend some time reading up on other languages, but if I were you, I'd concentrate on enjoying life.
Now, the remaining question of what to value most - the money or the job enjoyment, that you can only answer yourself, and is the very essence of an economic transaction.
Do what you LIKE, it's an investment (Score:5, Insightful)
When I first started working, I was doubting between programming and network security. I couldn't find a job in the latter, so I choose a big company (Oracle). I invested heavily into Java (which is what Oracle does), but it wasn't really what I wanted. After three years, I went to look elsewhere.
I found out that when you've invested in some specific area, people start assuming that's what you want to continue investing in. Every recruiter, every interviewing manager had the opinion that I was most useful in the Java field.
But that's not what I wanted. After a brief stint as "just another Java developer", I found the job I wanted: programming C and Perl at an institute which develops instruments (like infra-red sensors) for climate and space research. However, it was very hard and based on my experience alone I shouldn't have gotten the job.
My advice: you should choose whatever you're most comfortable with, because it's an investment into your future. Others will say, "but, a good CS student can program in any language/environment". It's true, but that's NOT how most people see it who might have to employ you.
As for your debt: you can quickly pay that off by continuing to keep expenses as though you were a student. Don't start buying too expensive cars, don't buy crazy gadgets, don't invest in silly hardware, and make sure to get a girlfriend who doesn't have a hole in her hand (or at least, one who has a smaller hole than you have).
My 2 pence... (Score:2, Insightful)
If not, take the money and run. Nothin beats cash.
Technology is largely irrelevant....just ask the guys who made a killing doing COBOL while everyone else migrated to C++.
Why's everyone so negative about the .NET job? (Score:4, Insightful)
Freedom (Score:4, Insightful)
In the large company, you will be locked to a regular user account. You won't get to install unapproved software (this includes your favourite text editors, browsers, music players, etc).
They might run some sort of software metering service, perhaps even keyloggers.
You will access the net through IE (which I'm sure is the official company browser), and their proxy might have half the net blocked.
You will probably be locked into using Outlook.
There will be all sorts of crap on your PC (since it's going to be a company-wide standard image); perhaps even something like McAfee AV, which happily chews away on 70-80 MB of RAM and makes things unbearable.
If your workstation is lacking RAM or other hardware, you're going to have to file a ton of paperwork and have it signed by 10 different people until you get the stuff half a year later... If you get it.
Also, it's very possible that your movement through the building will be monitored. Cameras everywhere, and your ID card will log the exact moment you get to work and leave it. Your lunch break will be exactly 60 minutes. You won't be able to go outside for a two-hour walk in spring if you feel like it and if you have nothing more important to do.
You will work with drones, not people. Mostly incompetent drones.
Listening to music will probably be forbidden, thought you might sneak in some headphones and find out you don't hear your phone ringing when you have them on, and if you make the music quieter, you won't be able to listen to it from the phones ringing (catch 22).
(Disclaimer: I work in a large company. I do have admin access and unrestricted internet access, but I had to buy RAM by myself, and I'm still waiting for a new monitor - on my desk is an old 17" curved CRT.)
Don't forget to look at the risks... (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you move (Score:3, Insightful)
.Net job stability VS Perl job stability (Score:5, Insightful)
Perl vs Perl vs Perl compares well to VB vs VBScript vs J++ vs VB.Net vs C# vs whatever is next
Remember that if you're going into the MS programming job, you're going to have to re-learn every new language MS comes out with to stay relevant to your job as they "switch over" to the latest greatest thing the marketing people have pushed on you, and some of them may only be there for a few months before you once again must switch over to the new latest buzz-word compliant new toy.
What you really need to ask yourself is, "Is the added stress of the impersonal environment and having to re-do all of my work in a slightly different language every 3 to 18 months worth the extra money?"
If the answer is yes, then go for the
Similar experience (Score:5, Interesting)
Here are a few points:
Programming and technology is rarely the primary challenge in any job whether its a short term contract or a fulltime position (and my father who has been in the business for 40 years pointed out that there is no such thing as a short term contract or a fulltime position.) You can make a lot of money very quickly doing stupid work with annoying people. You can work very hard with a great team, and end up with very little to show. Commuting can be exhausting, relocations can be frustrating, and all in all things that start off well can turn bad and vice versa.
That being said, we no longer live in the world of working for the same company for 50 years. Consider it a learning experience one way or the other.
And lets be honest. A few years working in a big iron shop or whatever the equivalent is, using the enterprise standard, within an organizational structure is going to teach you a great deal about the industry, beyond the technical.
There are alot of variables. Flexibility of schedule, telecommuting, whichone is going to leash you with a beeper fulltime, which one is going to get you into new technologies, and force you to think for a living.
I recently got two jobs in the same week, one programming and one heading Network Ops and I had billed out the second one at considerably more, but chose the first one because the reason I had priced the network stuff so high was because I knew it would be more punishing and less rewarding.
Do I think, 'Hey the 100 bucks a day extra might be nice?' Yeah. But I have worked both type of jobs, and I noticed that when I get paid more to work in a miserable situation, it gets harder to save, since I need to spend the money I make on keeping me happy. While if I wake up in the morning and the only thing that bugs me is that it takes too long to get into the office to try out this new idea I woke up with, well.... You get my drift.
Again though, and its been said, there will be other jobs. You never know what happens. My dad became a VP for a bank after years as a consultant and they did an early retirement buyout in 8 months.
I went into my last long term contract as a database analyst and left as an expert in VoIP, having been fired by my new boss after 3 years of big raises, because he wanted to shift in his own staff...
Also, don't worry too much about languages. I have been in shops where they are gungho about
Good luck! Congrats on having this as your difficult choices in life.
Look at it this way. (Score:5, Insightful)
In the .NET company
I just left a .NET company to work for a php/perl/python/ruby company. At one place I had trouble getting up in time (had to be at work for 9am). Now I get up at 5 in the morning to get to work ASAP.
quality (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would you want a job at a megacorporation in what will be probably a very stressful work environment and coding in one of those ironclad languages with layers upon layers of redundant abstractions and frameworks that in the end do exactly the same as ten lines of Perl?
money isn't worth it.
Balance (Score:5, Insightful)
Income: if you do not need the money, then you do not need the money. Three hours work pays my weekly rent (and I am not earning executive dollars) because I am comfortable in a smallish flat near (not on) the beach.
Fun vs career: there's a lot of crap about how cool is required in a job (*cough* Google *cough*). Work is survival for almost all people, and any child of immigrant parents knows the discipline they had to endure shit jobs.
If you need the money or a stronger career path, take the 66% increase. Either way, two job offers is a lot more than most people have. Good for you.
Money/Fun (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if I were 25 and single, I would definitely go for the hip/more interesting job. Control of your own project is much more important, overall, than the specific technology you are using, because it gives you an opportunity to look at the big picture issues - architecture, design choices, hardware constraints, etc. That will serve you very well in the long run even if you later end up using another language.
Distancing ourselves from MS as fast as possible (Score:3, Interesting)
Java offers similar advantages, but I find the GUI code overly complicated for what I want to do.
The answer is different depending on what you want to do, but this is a trend I am noticing more and more.
personal decision (Score:3, Funny)
It's your life, not just a job (Score:4, Interesting)
Misleading title (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Fun: social/work environment, large/small company considerations
2) Money: Salary and benefits
3) Toolset: perl or
Having said that, you can do worse than c#. I even prefer it to perl, the syntax is less of a mess. But your mileage can and will vary.
Flip a coin... (Score:5, Insightful)
Language not that big of a factor (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a few questions, and my advice based on their answers:
1) Are you young? Take the higher paying job and work like mad for 5 years while living like a pauper (small apartment, used car which you paid cash for, but wide broadband and good computer). Your time in the cubicle farm will be rewarded with getting home and being able to go frag someone. You'll either pay off all your debt, develop a huge savings, or some combination thereof. This will establish the financial stability today which can permit you a lot more freedom in your job choice in a few years. This is the path I'm going, and I'll have my mortgage paid off 3 years from now (5 years after I opened it).
2) Are you willing to relocate? If not, you do NOT want that Perl job no matter how good it looks. 2.5-3 hours of driving a day will sap way more of your life than working in a corporate environment. Every single day you will arrive at work tired, and every single night you will get home exhausted. I drive 1.5 hours now, and this is absolutely my upper limit. Something most folks don't really think about is that they get errands done during the week, which I don't have time for even with my (short compared to yours) drive. That means my weekends get sapped up getting stuff done which most people get done during the week. Opportunities for relaxation become few and far between. During the week you'll get home from work and just crash on the couch until you fall asleep, exhausted. My drive takes more out of me than my work day does, by a long shot.
3) Do you have a wife and/or kids? You're going to want to take the job which provides sufficient financial stability, while giving you the most time with them. If not, refer again to question 1.
4) How many hours are generally worked by the employees of each location? I've seen small companies which generally work 40 hours and no more, and I've seen big companies which are this way. Also I've seen small companies which expect each person to put in 70-80 hours, and I've seen big companies which expect each project to meet its deadline no matter how unreasonable. Total amount of free personal time is way more important than how much you like the work you're doing.
5) How busy are the people at each place? Too busy as in #4 is bad, but too slow is just as bad. Nothing is worse than trying to muddle through another work day with nothing to do, and nothing interesting to keep your mind occupied, while you surf work-friendly sites such as Slashdot, and hope your web usage doesn't get high enough to raise eyebrows. This will actually lead to a state of mental apathy which is very hard to shake, and which can seriously cripple your career for years. We've had people like this, and have had to get rid of them because we could never depend on them to get anything done in a reasonable amount of time even though once upon a time they were firecracker developers. 3 or 4 years in a job like this can ruin a developer, sometimes forever.
I hope these thoughts help. Largely they're based on my own personal experience, but to some extent they're also based on having been a developer manager for a firm which contracts most of our people out to other companies (hence my experience with point 5).
commute time (Score:5, Insightful)
One thing to consider (Score:4, Insightful)
Why ask us? (Score:4, Insightful)
That said: I would much rather make less doing a job I enjoy than get paid a lot for doing something I hate. Does the lower paying job cover your bills? Will it allow you to build up at least a little bit of a reserve? If you decide to move, will you be able to afford living nearer that job, and if not, will you be able to afford to commute? Assuming the answers to all of those are "yes," I'd take the job that pays less but looks like more fun. Don't buy into the American "money is everything" mentality -- money does you no good if you're miserable.
Perl,old and not busted.Net, new crapness. but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if
This isn't an evaluation of your life position and work-culture-based decisions, just my two cents about the technologies.
Trends (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.google.com/trends?q=.net%2C+perl [google.com]
There is also a steady decline in Java compared to C# in queries.
http://www.google.com/trends?q=c%23%2C+java&ctab=
Could it be that nobody needs to search google for examples, updates, information versus C#? Who can tell.
.BORG er .NET of course (Score:3)
Pills red and blue (Score:3, Insightful)
A search of Dice shows a lot more .NET jobs. Would taking the Perl job hurt my prospects in the future?
Let's just focus on this. And sum your current professional coding experience as X years. Then in two years
For several years I chaired the LPN Board for a large hospital, which screened applicants for hire and promotions. A big chunk of our work could be summed up with this question: "Is this a nurse with five years of experience, or a nurse with one year of experience repeated five times?" The same thing applies here. I don't think your decision is about money. I think it is about whether you want to take the red pill or the blue pill.
Make your own destiny (Score:3)
* rand(Python, JServe, LAMP, Ruby)
Which job will make you happiest? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being happy in your job is a major factor of leading a happy life. If you hate your job, odds are you're going to hate your life. If you have to work a lot of overtime and weekends, it can really make life suck.
One good way of dealing with this is insisting on comp time for overtime. Make sure your company knows that you expect a fair deal. If you have to work 8 hours on a Saturday, you should get a comp day. They're hiring you, not buying you.
Also, money isn't everything. BUT, if you are young, and the pay is really good, it can't hurt to put several years into making good money as long as you somehow invest it. I slaved away in a
Now I have a low-stress job with greatly reduced pay, but I also have much smaller financial needs, and I'm as happy as I can be.
Always keep your eyes on the prize. Happiness.
Um... This is a job not a hobby right? (Score:4, Informative)
To take the math out of this you will be playing salary catch up for years and probably won't catch up for a long time if ever. I turned down a 60% raise 7 years ago and just caught up to that level last year. If I'd taken that money then, I would be much farther ahead right now.
Let me qualify this by stating that MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING. I understand that, but I have a wife and a son and they aren't cheap.
If I were you and didn't have a huge preference between languages, I can play Half-Life at home thank you very much. Besides every time I play almost any game with co-workers they're a bunch of peon n00bs anyway
Money does mean something, otherwise we'd all be working on software projects and just giving it away... wait a second....
Excellent decision making skills... (Score:5, Funny)
[I keed, I keed.]