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Linux vs. Windows for Schools?

Posted by Cliff on Tue Feb 28, 2006 07:45 AM
from the licensing-fees-or-lack-of-educational-software dept.
Education Operating Systems Software
Fiachra06 writes "I am involved in helping to maintain the computer systems in the local school (200 ~ 250 pupils) in my home village. The children range in age from 4 to 12. The 14 PC's are running either Windows 95, Windows 98, and XP Home Edition and I find this rather abhorrent. The licensing fees to upgrade all the capable machines to XP pro is unreasonable for such a small school. What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro (probably Ubuntu). I have no doubt the children will have no problem adapting to the new OS (although the teachers might), the main concerns are the availability of educational software for them to use, and practicality of maintenance for people who are new to the OS given that I am not there regularly enough to be a full time sys admin. Preferably I wouldn't like to running too much through Wine but it is still an option."
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  • How about... (Score:5, Informative)

    by spiritraveller (641174) on Tuesday February 28 2006, @07:49AM (#14815713)
    Edubuntu [edubuntu.org]?

  • What is education (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dattaway (3088) on Tuesday February 28 2006, @07:50AM (#14815715) Homepage
    Is it more educational to buy a packaged education or take a classroom and create a learning environment? The best way to learn is to create the tools of learning rather than memorizing facts or being shown movies or games all day. Tell them they are smart, get them involved and make the system that will teach more generations. Turn them into leaders of the future, not followers of the past generations.
    • Is it more educational to buy a packaged education or take a classroom and create a learning environment?

      A learning environment for what though? These kids' focus is probably not learning computer desktop environments, it's more likely to be using some specialised educational software.

      My advice would be to stay with Windows in the general classes, and to put a 50/50 Windows/Linux split in the computing classes should the syllabus make that possible. Oh, and I'm an OS X user by the way, don't use Window

  • What are those PC's running? Strictly educational software for the kids? Or admin applications for the staff as well?

    2 different needs might lead you in 2 directions for getting things up and running with 'other than windows'.

  • Edubuntu (Score:5, Informative)

    by Silwenae (514138) on Tuesday February 28 2006, @07:52AM (#14815724) Homepage
    Edubuntu may be the way to go.

    Edubuntu FAQ [edubuntu.org]

    Looking at the Edubuntu Tour [edubuntu.org], some of the programs seem to be for a younger age, around kindergarten and up, but the SchoolTool calendar for teachers looks interesting.

    OpenOffice is included (of course). You don't mention what applications the kids may need - if it's just for internet browsing and research, and maybe some of the other educational things already included (Typing, etc), Edubuntu may fit your needs.

    The upcoming 6.04 release of Ubuntu's Dapper Drake may fit you better, as it will have a formal support cycle. (I want to say 3 years).
  • When you says availability of educational software, you mean "none". You should use the OS that can run your software. I'm sure most of the software that you currently own runs on Windows. Why change then? Why upgrade to XP at all? Maybe you need a fresh reinstall on those '95 and '98 boxes. They should run okay.
    I'd love to switch to Linux at home too, but everytime time I get to thinking about what software I use everyday, I realize it's just all for Windows. The OS serves one pupose: to run your software
    • Close, but not quite. You're forgetting that you're not using the software for the software's sake; you're using it to acheive something. That is to say, the software isn't the be-all and end-all, it's just a means to an end.

      More than likely, the OP needed "A spreadsheet" but chose the actual application based on a variety of factors, one of which was probably the OS he was running at the time. He doesn't need to run spreadsheet Brand X, that's just his current choice; if spreadsheet Brand Y can fulfil t
    • Wrong. Software is irrelevant.

      The computer serves one purpose: to get your work done.

      Windows/Office/Winamp and Linux/Openoffice/XMMS are two means to the same end. What this guy needs to do is look at exactly what those computers are used for and see if mature packages exist for doing the job.
  • Ask Slashdot "Windows or Linux" ???

    Hmmm. Let me think now!

  • Look, whatever the ideal solution here might be in technical terms, if you are making decisions for these people on the basis of what you find 'abhorrent', then you should stop.

    People are trusting you to make an informed technical choice, and you are presumably presenting yourself as someone who adds value in the form of technical knowledge and ability, right? You can't turn around and lead these people down a path determined by the fact that you have a personal emotional issue with some software. It's pr
    • I think its abhorrent because of the way MS conducts business surrounding the educational world. They push their crap onto schools and such with "this great deal" and then stick them later with extra costs. Not to mention the motives in doing this include making sure the future students buy Windows instead of anything else in their own future. Look up the nambia school thing that turned down the MS offer because their "donation" in reality was going to cost them a fortune in extra MS crap to make the com

  • FWIW... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by catdevnull (531283) on Tuesday February 28 2006, @07:56AM (#14815749)
    Disclaimer: I don't like MS or their business practices...

    It might be in MS's best interest to grow their Windows users from the ground up by practically giving away their OS to K-12 institutions. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot by extorting money from them.

    From a purely practical point of view, because we live in a "Windows World," it would serve the kids best to know their way around it. It would be a disservice to them to make them use Macs or Linux boxes and breed ignorance to the real world.

    HOWEVER, it would also be a disservice to these kids to NOT know anything about the other OSs out there. High school is a good place to introduce *nix for basic programming/computer science curriculums.

    The bottom line: it's education. Kids should be given the opportunity to learn as much about the computing world as they can by having exposure to all the technology available. Because of its ubiquity, locking out MS would be a mistake (unless the goal is to breed absolute contempt for MS in the next generation which would bring MS down--but that's another thread, I'm sure).
    • " HOWEVER, it would also be a disservice to these kids to NOT know anything about the other OSs out there. High school is a good place to introduce *nix for basic programming/computer science curriculums."

      Well considering these kids ages range from 4-12, I doubt they are in high school (unless they skipped a grade or two).

    • Addendum:

      If MS is going to force K-12 school districts into heavy handed licensing fees, then I think the Ubuntu track is a good alternative. It's better for the kids to have a working updated computer than it is for them to have an outdated and virus infected one. As I said, my only reservation is "windows ignorance" when they enter college or the workforce. Like it or not, MS Office on Windows is what almost everyone who doesn't read slashdot uses.

    • The frist question I have is why it needs to be either/or.
      With 14 PCs there is the possibility of 10-Win + 4-Lin or some such combination. Better yet, dual-boot them all.

      The bottom line: it's education. Kids should be given the opportunity to learn as much about the computing world as they can by having exposure to all the technology available.

      Maybe only 10-12 need to be set up with permanent installs ... let the kids mess with various distros and other random [freebyte.com] OSs like BeOS...


    • "It would be a disservice to them to make them use Macs or Linux boxes and breed ignorance to the real world."

      Windows didn't exist when I was at school. I still to this day have to do all my work in BBC Basic and Logo. Getting modern programs to run in 32Kb is no fun, I can tell you.
  • What is it going to cost you to install Linux and give it a chance?

    All we are say....ing..... is give Linux a chance..

  • While I have no doubt that Linux is ready for such a task, I'm not sure your average school teacher is.

    Good luck explaining to them that they can't use some fancy piece of educational software they've already bought, or if they can but it will sort-of work and sort-of not work thanks to Wine. IME, few teachers would accept being told this - and regardless of whether or not you should educating youngsters in a specific operating system, you may have a hard time convincing teachers of this.

    I know it's not wh
  • The biggest problem is likely to be stuff that the exam boards assume you are using. I know where my sister works the exam boards assume one of two packages that are windows only. I suspect you'd need to check this one carefully, but that it wouldn't be a show stopper.

    Other than that, I've heard of schools in the UK going down the LTSP road and it being excellent. If someone is messing around, you kill their X, move them to the front, and log them back into exactly where they were. Kid kicks a power plu
  • Before spending any money the educators need to create a requirements document. How are the computers to be used? What are the educational objectives? Is there any specific software that needs to be run? Are there any compatibility requirements? What level of support is available?

    With this document in hand, alternatives from "do nothing" through various upgrade strategies to "all new computers" should be reviewed and evaluated. Anything less would be irresponsible.

    Here we have a large existing capital inves
  • You have got to sit down with the teachers and compile a list of what they are using the computers for and then determine if there are open source alternatives and if the teachers are willing to accomodate a wholesale OS change. If the open source versions of the tools they need exist, then they should be open to change based solely on cost savings. As a taxpayer, I want to know that the schools that are devouring my money are spending responsibly. However, as a taxpayer, and someone who who predates compu

  • First off, you need evaluate what you're doing with these computers. Are they for the students, or the teachers? What exactly are the people who are using them doing with them? Is the software specific to the OS, or can it be ported? Is there an alternative?

    From your description, it sounds like you have a mix of computers, ranging from older to newer. Getting XP to run on the older ones is likely to be an exercise in frustration all by itself.

    If the student's are the ones using the computers, wh

  • Kids should learn skills they can take from the classroom. Then they can help themselves, help Mum+Dad and help others.

    95% of people use Windows in wider society, including businesses.

    I use Linux every day, it pays my wage. But for the 0.01% of people who would use the power Linux features, Windows has Cygwin, Ethereal and all that.

    They must learn Windows.

  • This project seems to be going well, and was covered in Linux Journal and on Slashdot.

    http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6349 [linuxjournal.com]

    I have family that lives up that way and they get some help for there linix stuff from this guy.
  • Answering the question as you put it isn't really possible.

    First, you need to have a good understanding of what these computers need to do. You mention educational software and wine. Does that mean there are specific applications that the computers must run or just that there are just things the computers should be able to do. A requirement that the computers run Oregon Trail 2005 (or whatever) probably means that you must stay with Windows or attempt to run it slowly in wine. But if the requirement is
  • Ah, you've discovered one of the great joys of the educator -- indoctrinating little minds with your own opinions, whether it is on the true cause of the American Civil War, the proper way to read a poem, or the correct operating system to use.

    As long as you understand this, and have the kid's best interest in mind, you won't do to wrong by them.

    There is no difference in terms of usability for a child's standpoint. Adults are often a different matter, but if they are for the most part not required to admin
  • 1)Set up the old machines as thin clients on a network. (eg LTSP). That means you can still use them; you'll have good performance, and the upgrade will be much easier. Then buy one high-end ($2k) server.

    2)Keep a windows machine or 2. Run the windows software on it - and connect with VNC. Costs nothing; 100% compatible.
    [Wine is quite good these days, but if you already have the MS licenses...]

    3)Don't buy any new windows apps - you'll only feed the addiction!

    4)Rip the fonts out of your existing installs. The
    • Wouldn't you think that the cost is really more? It sounds like the school wants to standardize on one OS - and having machines that run 95 or 98 and can't physically upgrade to XP due to hardware not being up to par would cost more - you'd have to upgrade the machines, just so they could run XP.

      $1000 to a school of 200-250 kids is expensive, when you look at all the other costs schools are assumed to support these days.
      • $1000 to a school of 200-250 kids is expensive, when you look at all the other costs schools are assumed to support these days.

        That's $4-$5 a kid. That's cheap compared to what the schools actually pay for the computers, books, electricity, salaries and so on. It's also what, a one time cost? Please, a back sale could raise that much money.
    • Licensing costs for 14 copies of XP Pro Academic Upgrade would run just under a grand.
      Looking through your figures, I see that you inadventently left out the lawyer fees and/or audit costs when Microsoft next decides to sue schools again to gently coax them into License 7.0 (or whatever they want to strongarm the school into). Those costs will likely add quite a bit to the margin.
                • Wouldn't the schools also have to keep there ducks in row if using Linux under GPL? They would need to make sure that there are no modified kernels or other software that hasn't been submitted back.
                  No. One is free to modify GPL'ed code to ones heart's content, and suffer no additional burden. The GPL would affect anyone who _distributes_ GPL'ed code.

    • Licensing costs for 14 copies of XP Pro Academic Upgrade would run just under a grand...Yes it's a significant chunk of change, but not crippling expensive.

      You clearly don't have kids. A thousand dollars is a lot to many public schools. I'll try more constructive responses unlike the totally useless criticisms expressed above.

      You'll need to find out if there are other teachers, parents or students (depending on the kids' ages) who can support Linux before seriously considering this. You'll also need to

      • Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:4, Informative)

        by diersing (679767) <gdiersing@g m a i l .com> on Tuesday February 28 2006, @09:28AM (#14816252)
        My 6 year old just celebrated his year anniversary of running Edubuntu (http://www.edubuntu.org/ [edubuntu.org]).

        Sure the handful of crapfully crafted games he had for Windows wouldn't run, but within the first week he didn't care. The distro comes loaded with educational games and exercises. His 1st grade class has 3-4 ancient iMacs (the ones that came in different colors). My impression was that they don't use the computers to construct or teach lessen plans, but its there to get them accustomed to using computers on a daily basis. For some edu-games, some heavily restricted internet, and education exercises I HIGHLY recommend edubuntu for younger kids.

    • Amazing... Simply ask a question hoping to gather some info and ideas and the incensed reaction from the Windows Elitists and their foaming at the mouth amazed responses that someone should dare consider something other than windows...

      Lets review this persons response shall we...

      *Abhorrent? Please. Licensing costs for 14 copies of XP Pro Academic Upgrade would run just under a grand.*
      - Obviously current affairs are not a strong point with you - most schools are closing down programs or closing all together, for years the teachers themselves had had to purchase their own supplies for the classes they teach, supplies the schools used to supply (pencils, Scissors, Construction Paper, paste)

        *If the machines are running 95 and 98, I'd bet more then a few are old enough that they probably shouldn't be running XP so the actual cost likely is less.*
      - this combined with the privious statement shows your true lack of understanding within the modern school system let alone proper project planning and managment - IF the PC's in question are indeed incapable of running WinXP well then it will just cost less in licensing then LOL no, because then you have to upgrade/replace the PC to modernize the PC to run todays software and so then it will indeed cost far MORE - the person posting the original question was hoping to find a low cost solution to a modern need and as even Micro$oft and its ferverent backers will all agree, linux is moving up the usability ladder and showing up more and more in mainstream life - get used to it LOL

      *Yes it's a significant chunk of change, but not crippling expensive. Obviously running 95, 98, and XP Home may not be the best solution overall, but it apparently seems to work for the time being.*
      -See my first section in response to this, amazing some people actually think our school system can just go buy anything - sad to have that little understanding of the modern school crisis faced today

      *What you are proposing is installing an operating system that is completely foreign to them. The software that they already own has been untested on it. It may or may not work. The availability of future software titles that run natively is also limited. Neither the kids nor the teachers have any experience with it. And to top it off, you even point out that you can't really support it like you should.*
      - Has anyone knows children learn at a far faster rate and adapt to new tech far faster than adults, they wouldnt have a problem (and prolly would help the teachers as well) adapt and learn the new systems in no time - your assuming that Point-N-Click is a windows only thing?? take 1 PC, Load Ubuntu or whatever distro on it, load and setup Wine, add the needed software and test, once you are sure its stable, image the PC and load on the other PC's (after taking some time to familirize the staff with the new OS and the dreaded Point-N-Click on the icon interface as they prolly never seen that before)

        *Sounds like a great plan!*
      - despite your sarcasm, it does, nothing better than saving a cash strapped school system a few thousand needed elsewhere desperatly dollars than dump them into the coffers of Micro$oft that will dump Million$ (of its Billion$ in revenue/profit) into the school and educational systems worldwide, but cries licensing disputes right here in the US itself for the further education and empowerment of the youth here and now.

        • take 1 PC, Load Ubuntu or whatever distro on it, load and setup Wine, add the needed software and test, once you are sure its stable, image the PC and load on the other PC's

          Sure, that would work *real* good with lots of old, very different systems.

          Different hardware wouldn't matter at all with this, because, unlike Windows, Linux actually has real plug and play. As long as you don't have the boot drive running on a wierd, non-standard drive controller, it will detect any hardware changes just fine on

    • Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Sleepy (4551) on Tuesday February 28 2006, @08:18AM (#14815851) Homepage
      In the OP's defense, he doesn't say he is from the USA, which means "a grand" could be a non-trivial sum. Windows 95? Sounds like these systems were all donations, and no one has had the sense to retire OS hardware that is just a bit too old.

      As a Linux advocate, I'd have to agree with you overall -- The poster already said he won't be a full time admin.
      If he WERE the admin, and had someone as backup admin, he should not be gambling with his and other folks time trying to fix this... especially in one fell swoop.

      My suggestion is to configure 1 new and 2 old systems as a diskless Linux Terminal, with the better system running as a server of course. DON'T SELL the folks on WINE compatability -- you asked about it, meaning you (OP) don't know much about configuring WINE to actually run more than Minesweeper and Notepad (think: native DLL's). If some things work in wine, BONUS, but from the start remove this feature from the plate.

      If the k12 Linux Terminal Server project works for these systems, you have a good pilot. Now draw up a chart showing what a $1500 investment in the lab would get you (A few new XP systems, or a bunch of upgrades or new OS-less systems). Then let the customer decide.

      It's a huge undertaking what you propose. You are not prepared for it if you have to ask Slashdot (no offense to anyone). If you do this and fail, your credibility will be destroyed, and when Linux gets better and better they will be the last folks on the planet to try it again because of the bad experience.

      Aim for a pilot program, or a fileserver, but only if you are at least 80% technically capable of it. Some things you can find in Google, but there's nothing worse than some newbie posting on the forums, whining that they have to finish Something they don't know how to, and on a deadline at that.

    • This (slightly old) Linux Terminal Cost Analysis [idealcorp.com] shows better ways to spend that money than licensing software from Microsoft. From article: "Every company deserves to be compensated for the work it does, but no company deserves to be handed money when a more competitive solution is available." Some might consider it abhorrent, but I think it's just a waste of resources. (Disclaimer: I wrote the analysis...)

    • Re:Is it really abhorrent? (Score:4, Informative)

      by db32 (862117) on Tuesday February 28 2006, @08:18AM (#14815856) Journal
      Sure you get a peachy keen deal...oh but did you buy Office? *ka-ching* Did you get the educational software you needed? *ka-ching* Did you buy the support contracts? *ka-ching* Did you buy the anti-virus software? *ka-ching* Oh and did you figure up how much a compromise would cost? *ka-ching*

      Not saying Windows is the worst solution, but you oversimplify the issue grossly.
      • The K Desktop Environment (KDE) [kde.org] has an education suite [kde.org] focused on creating high-quality educational software for children ages 3 to 18. They've also developed specialized programs to aid teachers in planning lessons. Here are some of the specific programs and their targetted are of teaching:

        KLatin [kde.org], KVerbos [kde.org], and Kiten [kde.org] to teach Latin, Spanish, and Japanese respectively.

        KMPlot [kde.org] to plot mathematical functions and Kig [kde.org] to explore geometric constructions.

        Kalzium [kde.org] to teach Chemistry KStars [kde.org] to teach astronomy.

        KGeogr [kde.org]
    • Question for you:

      How is the speed? I mean, do the applications you run on this setup feel snappy? What about printing and storage? I know this is possible, but would like you to shade some light on your environment. One thing I know is that you sre saving something in power consumption. Are these 500 PCs booting off a single server? Is multimedia (listening to streaming media) possible? Please shade some light. Thanx.

    • ### Linux is *not* user friendly, and until it is linux will stay with >1% marketshare.

      While Linux has still a few usability problems, for anything where you have a seperate administrator, has seems to be here the case, its perfectly ok, actually it has been perfectly ok for such installations for quite a long time.

      ### Take installation. Linux zealots are now saying "oh installing is so easy, just do apt-get install package or emerge package": Yes, because typing in "apt-get" or "emerge" makes so much mo
    • You obviously are a troll, but I will bite anyway:
      A windows computer without a properly trained user will be a stinking mess in no time. Ye she may be able to install quake on it, but also all the malware she thinks sounds entertaining.
      That is fine at home, but in a school or office environment that will not do. Then it suddenly does not matter that the user cannot install any software by themselves. They may not like that very much, but it keeps their computer running for 5 years or more (provided the hard
    • Linux is *not* user friendly, and until it is linux will stay with >1% marketshare.

      Speaking of school, I think someone needs to go back to kindergarten and learn the difference between >(we call it "greater than") and
      But yeah, you are right, Linux will stick around with greater than 1% market share.....
    • I think this is pretty sensible- the older machines will run 'nix quite comfortably (as a previous sladshdot story semi-helpfully pointed out) and the new machines shouldn't have a problem with XP.

      For better or worse, there will always be a need for machines running Windows in this kind of environment, as whatever random CD-ROM or learning application the teacher decides to introduce to the classroom will probably need windows, and you're not going to look to good telling them that they can't teach the j
    • Need more information??? How 'bout need a question! ;-)

      What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro (probably Ubuntu).

      OK, that's the only line approaching a question in the summary (though one of these "?" thingys would make it more official). Is that seriously a front-page question? OK, the anwer is.... You ready for it? We think its good!

      Thanks for asking!
    • Ubuntu chose to use sudo instead of the regular su, which is extremely annoying if you got a lot to do as root. You have to type sudo in front of every app's name to run it as root.

      Ever tried to type sudo bash?

    • Let's face it Windows applications are the *mainstream* apps in Business, do your goals include exposing your young students to these apps (i.e. do you plan to teach them how to use office apps ?).

      This is such a stupid objection. My kids use Debian at home, and they use Firefox and OpenOffice. They took approximately 15 seconds to figure out MS Word at school based on what they knew of OpenOffice at home.

      Kids are intelligent. You should not be in the business of teaching kids Microsoft Word or Excel

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