Web Development - A Tough Job to Have? 112
frank_tudor asks: "Hey everyone, I have been a web developer for seven years now. I have had some moments of success, but mostly down moments with low pay, less than stable work, and unemployment. I love what I do and I don't mind the trends and technology changes that come with web development, but I am getting older and have been mulling a change in professions. But to what? I an wondering what those of you on Slashdot think about web development as a job, and what professions they think would be both stable and challenging to consider?"
As a Web Developer ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The pros of web development:
Most importantly, educate yourself about enhancements, advancements & changes and stay well rounded. Best thing I ever did was set up an Apache Tomcat server at my home and start tinkering around. Well, I suppose that's another story though
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Communication is key though, we spend more time talking about what we are doing than actually doing it. Also, a very strong change management procedure helps.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I've found that vertical ownership works out much better than horizontal ownership. Rather than having one database guy, one UI guy, and everybody else writing glue in between, everybody is a database guy and a UI guy and an everything-in-between guy. Developers own features from the database all the way to the presentation. You get a better, more well-rounded team that understands more of the entire project that way, and you increase both morale and responsibility by letting developers own specific features (if a feature is great, you know who to praise. If it sucks, there's no passing blame to "the database guy" or "the UI guy").
You'll still need to have domain experts. Not everybody is going to be a SQL guru or awesome UI designer, so you need team members with those skills who can guide design and implementation, do code reviews, troubleshoot issues, etc. Ideally, these "gurus" are also "regular" team members who own their own feature set. The goal is to spread around the knowledge rather than building little castles around specific areas and throwing around blame. That'll still happen, but it's much harder for Feature A to blame Feature C for Feature A's failure than it is for the database guy to claim his work on Features A and C was perfect and it must be the UI guy who made Feature A suck.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The tricky part is building such a team. Everyone wants to hire the people with a perfect skillset, hence the insane job requirements that you sometimes see from corporate recruiters. A good vertical skillset in web development makes not only an extremely attractive candidate, but also someone who can easily freelance or do a web startup.
However rather than complete verticality, most of the benefit can achieve from proper overlap. IE, the designer needs to understand HTML/CSS pretty well. The markup person needs to understand presentational logic and the basics of the language being used. The programmer needs to know HTML/CSS and have good database fundamentals. The DBA maybe just needs to understand the business processes.
This allows the team members to work together efficiently. The minute the programmer looks down on the HTML guy for religious reasons, the whole project goes to shit. If everyone is at the top of their game and has some idea of what their team members need to be efficient then a team of 4-5 specialists can achieve great productivity. On the other hand, all it takes is one hack designer using Dreamweaver as a crutch and things can quickly grind to a halt.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're hiring freelancers or contract workers, it's definitely difficult to build such a team. If you're looking to the future and slowly staffing up in a proper manner, then you should have no trouble getting smart people who maybe don't know everything but have an amazing capacity and willingness to learn. Of course, you need to make sure you do spread out the knowledge at hiring time as well. If you hire all SQL programmers, who is going to be your HTML guru who will train the others?
I'd also like to point out that this vertical split works well in many other types of development, not just web dev.
Depending on where you make the differentiation between "Developer" and "not Developer", your goal should be to get all of your developers to be proficient at all levels. I mention making a distinction because DBAs are often considered Operations (while they may keep your system running, they're not intimately involved in designing and building new features), or your designer is just a Photoshop monkey with a good sense of design and not someone you'd really want coding. For the rest, you play to their strengths but put them in situations just enough beyond their skillset that they will grow and succeed. The other thing here is that by splitting vertically, everybody must grow together. You SQL guru will have to help your HTML guru with his database design and code, just as your HTML guru will have to help your SQL guru with his presentation work. You're forcing teamwork and communication, while spreading out knowledge so that no single person is too valuable (ideally because you're protecting against bad attrition such as a star developer leaving for a different job, but I guess you could use that as a way to slowly outsource everything as well).
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:3, Informative)
As long as you don't have to start the project that way. To really get things moving, have the developers, the designer and the database guy sit down and decide what needs to be done, then have the database guy create the core database, the designer come up with the stylesheet(s) and some mock-up pages, and the developers create (or set up) the framework, then everybody gets together to make everything work together. Once that's done
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:1)
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2, Interesting)
Amen to that brother.
I just had the same experience again the other day. The "CEO" turns to me and says, "So for tha past week you've only worked on the login page?"
I just wanted to scre
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:1, Interesting)
I would have brought out my tablet PC and drawn a diagram, grade school level, of how things like that are important to a company. And then subsequently fired for being "difficult".
That's why whenever someone who's not my boss has a problem with my work, I smile my fake ass smile and say "Well you'd have to talk to my manager about that."
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Amen to that brother.
I just had the same experience again the other day. The "CEO" turns to me and says, "So for tha past week you've only worked on the login page?"
It *is* correct, but it's misleading to tag is "webdev specific" issue. It's same in just about any work that has design and programming phases.
Dev: "I've been working past 3 months on the script part of our 3rd person shooter game engine"
Boss: "Can I see how it's shaping up?"
Dev:"No, it's nothing we can demo yet, just couple of demos where a ball hits a cube and the cubes rotate and such"
Boss: "You're fired"
Dev:"I've been working the past 3 months on adding heuristics to our virus scanner"
Boss: "Can I see it?"
Dev:"Yea, here it is, enable this checkbox"
Boss:"3 months for a checkbox? You're fired"
Basically this is why a project leader has some experience in the technologies involved so you don't lead pointless and potentially catastrophic conversations like these. The team leader's job is to understand his team members needs and the resourse a task really takes, and dumb it down to the management so the management has a realistic idea of the work involved.
In other words, there are not plenty of highly technical jobs, where you can just walk to your boss and tell him: "I've been porting shit from tables to CSS past month" and expect him to have a clue.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Your manager may not care that the tables are being converted to CSS.
He or she does care if you say that you've been improving the structure of the page so that you can be more responsive to customer requests. If what you're doing doesn't contribute to the bottom line, you'd better reconsider why you're doing it. But if it does, you'd better tell your boss how, and he or she will be sure to listen.
If not, find another job. :-)
Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
but his output stink
his code not functional or elegant
what do Code Monkey think
Code Monkey think maybe manager oughta write goddamn login page himself
Code Monkey not say it out loud
Code Monkey not crazy just proud
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2006/04/14/thing-a
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:1, Insightful)
"A lot of times, you can add something graphical in two minutes and the customer might wet themselves when they see it. On the other hand, you can spend two months knocking out major requirements in back-end functionality and the customer will probably ask you why they're paying you since nothing's changed in the interface."
Amen to that brother.
I just had the same experience again the other day. The "CEO" turns to me and says, "So for tha past week you've only worked on the login page?"
I just wanted t
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:1)
Do I sense a problem with communication here? For every work discipline that hits maturity, you see more knowledge than one man can master perfectly alone.
This is when teams happen. Team work is essential for doing just about anything bigger and more complex (there are always exceptions that show heroic prod
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
"Seriously, where do people get their pictures for websites?"
I use istockphoto.com [istockphoto.com]. $1-3 for an image suitable for web work.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
One additional downside is you have to work with illiterates who think "run the gambit" is an English idiom. They probably write things like "for all intensive purposes", too.
But think of the "French benefits"...
Hate to taunt a girl on /., but (Score:2)
If you're going to publicly pick on someone's phrases you should really offer the correct examples, too. Especially since you don't know if English is the poster's first language. You can guarantee that it is not the first language of some of the readers and that some readers are trying to improve their skills.
"run the gamut" - 'to cover a whole range of variations'
"run the gauntlet" (probably not what the poster meant) - 'to suffer severe criticism or tribulation' with back
Re:Hate to taunt a girl on /., but (Score:2)
Bullcrap. If he cares, he can RTFM and look up the correct usage.
Or wait around for some twit to spoonfeed him, that works too.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:1)
From a CD of stock pictures (Score:2)
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:3, Interesting)
I could not imagine going back to work as a developer. I make twice as much as a first year associate in a major firm than I was as a senior developer working on some major web sites. While I probably work longer hour
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
But didn't the part where they sucked out your soul hurt?
Just kidding. More power to you. I have lots of relatives who are lawyers.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
This boggles the mind. My brother just walked away from an entry level web designer job in NYC that was close to $150K. And, he's strictly designer. The most complex code he's ever written is an onMouseOver script. I imagine senior developers must make much more. If you're making twice as much again as a junior associate in a law firm, I'm very envious.
Of course, if you're rea
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
Salaries for law firms are actually easy to find. Big law firms have fixed pay for associates based on years of experience, and you can get this information on the web. Here are salaries for Sullivan & Cromwell [infirmation.com], one of the more prestigious forms in NY. 1st year associates make $145K with a bonus on the low-end of $30K, and probably no much mor e than $45 or $50K on the high end.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
Wow. To be honest, I always assumed that top graduates made way more than that coming out of law school.
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2)
unless those figures are based on something different like...crappy lawyers or assitants or something...
Re:As a Web Developer ... (Score:2, Interesting)
Other easily identified cons (Score:2)
Some other easily identified cons:
I love it: If you're good, send me a resume (Score:2)
As fundamentally a person who likes to create things, I love web development because there is no other domain where I can spend as little time to make something complex actually work and be available to many people. The first is the domain of all software and the second is specific to web development. (Obviously software projects can be huge and comp
Work for a hospital (Score:4, Interesting)
Bottom line, it's a stable, well-paid, and interesting place to work.
Re:Work for a hospital (Score:3, Interesting)
I work at a much less lucrative non-profit than the poster and the worst I can say about my job is that the pay check is not as large as many of my peers. On the other side, the perks are great. My bosses respect me and they look at decisions in terms of effectiveness and not so much in how much of a profit it will turn. (The difference between the two is subtle but important.) I can freely experiment
Count your Lucky Stars (Score:2)
You're lucky to have good leadership. I once quit a very similar job (non-profit healthcare) because the management decided to buy a cheap application server that lacked a two-phase commit function, when we'd be reading and writing into multiple databases, ordering labs, drugs, etc. The rationale was it was cheaper to settle the lawsuits over drug mix-ups than to do the
work for someone (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't have a solution for you, I'm now working in an electronic engineering company doing the software side of things and am in way over my head as far as the electronics is concerned, but I'm learning and am paid well- its a great job that's not on contract. Don't do contracts unless you've got lots of customers and other people to help you, otherwise you just get all the headache managing things- there are in fact advantages to working for someone else, as much as I like being on my own.
the opposite (Score:2)
Interesting - you suggest working for someone, i would suggest consulting as a project lead. There are lots of small(er/ish) companies out there that want stuff developed, but don't have the exprtise to deal with a development contractor.
What these companies want is someone who knows the subject domain, knows the industry, and can be the company's representative when dealing with developers.
Bad developers give bad adivce to clients who don't know good and bad. Someone who can say "I've done dev for a de
Heh (Score:3, Insightful)
But it can be interesting - if you want interesting more than you want stable, I'd suggest trying to find a startup. Or better yet, work on your own projects in your spare time, and try and spin them off into things that you can do full-time, working for yourself. This is ultimately what I want to do, but it ain't easy. Plus, you need to find an employer who is amenable to this and won't try to claim your off-duty work as their own.
Re:Heh (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Heh (Score:2)
Re:Heh (Score:2)
Because 2 people focused on doing what they are each good at are more effective and efficient than 1 person bouncing back and forth trying to do it all. The only problem would be situations where there simply isn't enough work to keep more than one busy.
Seems like good criteria for deciding who not to w
Easy Work (Score:2)
Seriously though, I feel for you -- all tech jobs have been knocked down a coup
Web Developer (Score:5, Interesting)
Not everyone wants to be involved with management, but if you enjoy web app work, perhaps you'd enjoy trying managing others and using your experience to help them.
Business Aanalyst? (Score:3, Insightful)
One of the posts mentioned health care as a interesting industry. I will reccomend the energy industry as it is huge, heavily subsidized (the gov't will not allow them to fail), making huge sums of money and some of the problem domains (earth scienes, environmental compliance) are a bit more intersting than your typical ecommerce site.
Best of luck on the change...
Re: (Score:2)
Having a bad streak of luck myself right now (Score:4, Interesting)
If you don't like switching the technology every odd month - then don't. It's that simple. There are countless OSS solutions out there, one better than the next. Pick one server side and one client side and stick to that. Zope/XUL, Typo3/Flash Java/Java, OpenLaszlo, Joomla/Ajax, Symfony/XHTML
I know a webdesigner who does EVERYTHING with ExpressionEngine (a commercial PHP/MySQL Weblog/CMS that's popular amoung designers). It uses some hairbrained Template Level PL for small logic actions. Some more webappy things he does are a total mess and totally destroy the concept of MVC but all the websites he puts out are top notch and easy to operate for his customers. He knows his way around that CMS and customers don't question him.
After years of exploring all the neat and fun OSS webtechnologies and after 3 years freelancing in the field I'm slowly growing old and will bite the bullet and start to focus. Allready I've done a few jobs with Joomla. Since I'm building a larger PHP webapp just now I'll probably chose a PHP CMS to dive into. And since I'm in germany it probably will be Typo3 - allthough I hate the beast.
Bottom line: Specialize and focus. That will bring you further than eternally trying to be the jack of all trades.
Wrong way, dude. (Score:1)
Learn the fundamentals of software and business use of it. Learn what it takes to make and keep an organization successful. L
Re:Wrong way, dude. (Score:2)
Then why is rubyonrails.org running on PHP I ask?
Slashdot just got a refreshing update, has an ever growing featureset and that beast runs on Perl and MySQL.
No, I think you've got it wrong. As long as it's a live OSS soltion it will never fall back far behind the current techtrend.
Re:Having a bad streak of luck myself right now (Score:2)
Needless to say, I was right and wrong. Security became a big issue, but ASP seems to be much popular with larger companies than ASP.
While I still focus on PHP, I'm starting to learn
Simple. (Score:2)
Re:Simple. (Score:2)
Grow with the job a bit (Score:2)
Back in the day... (Score:4, Insightful)
There are two phrases any client should never use:
1) "Make it look exactly like this."
2) "My friend has an 8 year old kid he says built him a web site."
A bad client can be a real problem. It takes a lot of work to find a good one.
Re:Back in the day... (Score:3, Insightful)
I like it (Score:2)
Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Does that sound odd to anyone else, or am I just disconnected from some greater reality?
Frank, I've been doing Web stuff since 1994. I started with very little know-how -- I went to college to study English, not programming. Over the years I spent time as an artistic Web Designer & Photoshop monkey, then usability expert, then a JavaScript & Perl CGI developer, then PHP, MySQL, and eventually I just decided to say yes to everything. I'll try anything. And what is important to note is that my salary has steadily gone upward -- huge leaps upward during the boom, and then it was flat for a while, and then I started working for myself, and gave myself a pay raise. ;)
I have more work than I can accept. In fact, I've probably disappointed a few business people lately because not only was I too overloaded to take their work, but my subcontractor was too. How does this sync up with "low pay and unemployment" problems?
I have to wonder. What is your skill set? In seven years, you could and should have learned quite a lot. You should be much more competent, and thus much more in demand, than any young bloods coming onto the scene. Your skills should be apparent to those working with you -- "oh, he's the guy who does _____." For me, it's "he's the guy who fixes the Web site when our employees break it." There should be certain things you have zero doubts about as far as your skills are concerned. For me, it's PHP and MySQL, with all the ancillary buzzwords as a given (XHTML, CSS, Ajax). Can you easily and readily point to your strengths, and can your peers?
Lastly, what are you doing to market yourself? You don't provide links to your sites or portfolio in your story submission. With your mention of low pay & unemployment, I wonder about your networking too. Have you mass-mailed every friend & relative in your address book, asking for work? Have you kept relationships with the people who have hired you in the past?
I ask because it seems odd that after 7 years, this is the story you have to tell. And that makes me worry about the next thing you jump into. How many of the issues you have right now are due to the job itself, and how many are due to your own networking/skillset/learning/marketing deficiencies? If you find that a lot of it is of your own making, then changing jobs is NOT going to help. It will just be a year of euphoria followed by several more years of being brought back down to harsh reality. Think hard before you jump to the next thing. I'm worried it may be more of the same, unless you do some hard self-analysis first.
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:2)
I concur (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, it's a tough job - you have to be prepared to work seven days a week, be on call at 4am, and work 18 hour days (minimum), and put up with shit from clients who don't have a clue. We have a good team insofar as he is a photoshop a
Re:I concur (Score:2)
Re:I concur (Score:2)
"you have to be prepared to work seven days a week, be on call at 4am, and work 18 hour days (minimum), and put up with shit from clients who don't have a clue."
Well, if you live life like an obstetrician, you should expect to get paid like one.
Re:I concur (Score:2)
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:2)
I was wondering along those lines too.
I've seen "web developer" used to describe people with all sorts of skillsets, from those who know a bit of HTML, CSS and some Javascript and maybe a little Flash, through people with ASP/PHP/JSP skills right through to more "traditional" programmers who just happen to be working on client-server apps with web front-ends.
How on earth are we supposed to advise on potential career moves when we basically have no idea what the guy's
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:1, Interesting)
I'm well-versed in a lot of development areas. While I can't say I'm an expert in any field, I know my stuff well and consider myself to be a lot above the average level of web developers and "web developers". For example, I know how to develop in both PHP and
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:3, Insightful)
It depends greatly on where you live, and who your customers are. I've been a web developer for about two years (had done a lot of it in the past, though), since moving to a large town/small city. We came here with a long list of things we could do, and quickly settled on web development because every organisation here that had a web site had a dreadful website. You know the drill: something knocked together by some guy who'd just done a course in Dreamweaver and Photoshop, 90% of the text is an image, ev
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:2)
I'm willing to try to convince you.
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:2)
-Tony
You are confused. (Score:1, Interesting)
This is why some incredibly incompetant people can have more work than they can handle, while some people who are amazing at what they d
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:1)
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:3, Insightful)
For me it was fairly natural. The Web had just started. I was one of the much lamented AOL crowd that came online when AOL brought in Usenet news feeds. I was publishing a small press journal, and I wanted more exposure. I learned about the Web, and found I could understand HTML enough to create something similar to my journal, online. So I put out a few issues.
I think in Februar
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:1)
Re:Frank, there's something wrong. (Score:1)
I like websites (Score:2)
Having said that, I prefer to work on back-end/behind the scenes stuff. Working in a team with a wide range of skills is great, if you also work with people who excel at front end/css
You live in two worlds. (Score:2)
On the other side you have back end -- these guys are going to connect what you made to the servers.
There is a constant friction between these two sides. Creative wants gradiants! But you have to explain they take up too much bandwidth. Back end wants you to use ASP.net but your client uses PHP. Back-end want a user flow Information Architecture, Creative gives them three photoshop files and two paragraph word docum
Same feeling (Score:1, Insightful)
What makes it the most difficult are the customers, in my opinion. I also worked in call centres for more than four years, and still today, with all that "practice", I still can't deal with customers. Furthermore, the share of customers I got is quite bad. (For example, one customer I got disappeared for month
Re:Same feeling advice (Score:1)
Crap shoot (Score:2)
You can work for a good company that respects your talent and ability.
You can work for a bad company that sees you as a hired monkey and nothing more.
You can get the dream job building useful applications and then when you least expect it, have your job yanked out from under you.
You can soend your life doing scut work, fixing other people's abyssmal code or having to deal with demanding clients who change their minds three times a day.
If you enjoy challenges, there's nothing better than web developm
A short answer... (Score:2)
Glad to be out (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, I took a job as a system administrator for a large ecommerce company, they had an emergency one day where some perl cgi scripts broke, the developers were flapping around trying to figure it out, I suggested a solution that worked, from that day one I also had web development tasks, when I finished that job my offical title was: IT Manager/Network Manager/Website Manager.
Second time this happen, unix sys admin for DoD couldn't be further from web development right? Wrong, since being in this job I would estimate about 60% of my time is spent doing tasks related to web development, (I don't mind so much here since the development is very much backend stuff for internal application so less pressure), but it all started because a midlevel manager noticed on my resume when doing some reviews that I had experience in that field.
I swear next job I am omiting all references to web development from my resume.
May not help much but... (Score:1)
Same boat but I evolved (Score:3, Informative)
I specialized in LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP). This skillset will cover the vast majority of jobs on the market. Knowing Photoshop and Flash helps but isn't necessary. You should have OOP running through your veins and understand what MVC is and use it daily. As a web dev, you are also expected to be a sys admin to a certain extent setting up cron jobs, checking security, etc. Also, knowing how to build an e-commerce site, build your own SSH certs and manage public and private keys helps as well.
Basically, you are a sys admin with a specialization in the web.
Focus on this kind of skillset and you will be set.
Also, don't take any job that requires you to know Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash and Visual Basic; these are red flags that tell me the job won't last a month and that the employer doesn't really want a web dev and isn't sure what they are looking for.
Which brings me to another good point. People who ask you to know IIS, Apache, Windows, Linux, Visual Basic, PHP,
Become a DB admin (Score:2)
Change focus to intranet/business apps (Score:2)
It would take months and years to hire a few VB programmers to write a sql program. I showed him some internet sites and explained how interactive cgi scrips with sql support were the new thing (this was in 97).
He then realized in 2 weeks he could have programmers develop a VB based II
Re:Change focus to intranet/business apps (Score:2)
From the artist's standpoint (Score:2)
I do contract-based designs through my primary job, and through my secondary business I run (I tailor to different clients in each). With my secondary business, I decided that I was going to treat my work more like commissioned art, rather than a web design business. Why? I get too many clients with some idea in their head, that doesn't even communicate what they need effectively. They just think it looks cool. I'm not a tool to be used for their butt-ugly work - I'm the one with the experience in tran
specialize or startup (Score:2)
1. Specialize - find some field, hopefully one you like, and become a specialist in it. Something like XML web services for travel applications, or web application security, or whatever (the more technical, the better, I think). Just find something and become the goto guy/gal in that field.
2. Startup - stop coding for other people and work on your own startup. This is a hard path to follow and the odd
Enjoy Your Work! (Score:2, Insightful)
My average job length is about a year because I get bored quickly. For developers changing jobs is often the easiest way to get a pay raise.
If you do enjoy web development there are plenty of good jobs out there. Be picky! Find one that you will enjoy doing for a while. The environm
Web Development Careers (Score:1)
Use WebObjects. (Score:2)
Lots of large-scale apps are deployed on it,
Re:Use WebObjects. (Score:2)
That's a catch? I'm finding more and more every day that the Mac is my ideal development platform. I can run X11 apps if I want; With the new Intel Macs I can run XP in a *window* (I downloaded but haven't tried Vista B2 yet). XCode isn't bad for compiled code, but the best editor for scripts like PHP, Ruby, Perl, etc. on any platform (TextMate) is Mac-only. I have all the command-line tools I need like ssh, rsync, cvs, etc. And Fugu is a great SFTP client, where hitting Command-J will open a file in y
Try network engineering or hardware! (Score:1)
Business Analysis (Score:2)
Focus and Streamlining are the Key (Score:1)
Switch to VB development, because... (Score:2)
Re:Switch to VB development, because... (Score:1)
classic VB?
and if so
stagnant technology with little power but with a huge knowledge base vs. overly dynamic technologies with lots of power and a varying knowledge base
since 1994 (Score:1)
Re:That depends... (Score:1)
Re:That depends... (Score:1, Troll)
Re:That depends... (Score:1, Flamebait)
Please do.