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Has Orwell's '1984' Come 22 Years Later?

Posted by Cliff on Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 PM
from the his-words-are-still-precient dept.
gabec asks: "This weekend my mother bought a grille lighter, something like this butane lighter. The self-scanner at Kroger's locked itself up and paged a clerk, who had to enter our drivers license numbers into her kiosk before we could continue. Last week my girlfriend bought four peaches. An alert came up stating that peaches were a restricted item and she had to identify herself before being able to purchase such a decidedly high quantity of the dangerous fruit. My video games spy on me, reporting the applications I run, the websites I visit, the accounts of the people I IM. My ISP is being strong-armed into a two-year archive of each action I take online under the guise of catching pedophiles, the companies I trust to free information are my enemies, the people looking out for me are being watched. As if that weren't enough, my own computer spies on me daily, my bank has been compromised, my phone is tapped--has been for years--and my phone company is A-OK with it. What's a guy that doesn't even consider himself paranoid to think of the current state of affairs?" The sad state of affairs is that Big Brother probably became a quiet part of our lives a lot earlier. The big question now is: how much worse can it get?
Am I just accustomed to old ways? Does the new generation, born with these restrictions, feel the weight of these bonds and recoil from my fears as paranoia? What can I, a person with no political interests--a person that would really rather think that the people in office are there because they're looking out for us, our rights, and our freedoms and not because their short-sightedness is creating a police state--do to stem the tide?"
+ -
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  • Peaches? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bcore (705121) on Friday July 28 2006, @10:57PM (#15803882)
    I don't think you can claim that the store told you that four peaches was a "restricted item" without at least explaining the situation a little bit further.
    • Re:Peaches? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Pax00 (266436) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:03PM (#15803905)
      Interesting thing about peaches is that they contain cyanide. [cdc.gov] From that respect I could see why the scanner would go off...
    • Re:Peaches? (Score:5, Funny)

      by filtur (724994) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:03PM (#15803906) Homepage
      I don't think you can claim that the store told you that four peaches was a "restricted item" without at least explaining the situation a little bit further.

      Maybe they were underage? :)
    • by StefanJ (88986) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:09PM (#15803935) Homepage Journal
      Please strip to your underwear and sit with your hands folded behind your head in preparation for a courtesy visit from your friends and fellow Class 1 citizens from Homeland Security's Produce Control Division.

      And stop thinking about goats when you play with yourself.
    • Re:Peaches? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by lawpoop (604919) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:23PM (#15803989) Homepage Journal
      Besides peaches being a source of cyanide, also note that the only source of ricin [wikipedia.org], one of the most deadly poisons known to man, is castor beans.
      • Re:Peaches? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Jeremy Erwin (2054) on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:12AM (#15804170) Journal
        Speaking of Ricin, US Patent 3060165 "Preparation of Toxic Ricin" is a famous example of a redacted patent. It is available from European sources [espacenet.com], though not from the USPTO.

        Although ricin has been prepared in crystalline conditions in the laboratory in small quantities, it becomes necessary for purposes of toxological warfare to prepare relatively large quantities in a high state of purity. This neccesitates that as much as possible of the nontoxic material present be removed in the process.


        This document [globalsecurity.org], however, implies that the production method described in the patent results in a impure mixture of various denatured proteins.
          • Re:Peaches? (Score:5, Informative)

            by Jeremy Erwin (2054) on Saturday July 29 2006, @02:29AM (#15804628) Journal
            even 1/2-strength ricin is more lethal than many toxins.

            "half -strength" may be an exceptionally optimistic yield. The patent doesn't address the efficiency of the process.
    • Re:Peaches? (Score:5, Funny)

      by binarybum (468664) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:41PM (#15804046) Homepage
      after oranges, peaches are known to be the second most popular weapons in Drive-by Fruitings [urbandictionary.com].

    • by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:56AM (#15804311)
      1) Register error. There are things like alcohol that will flag a stop and check for ID situation, and of course it's controlled from the central inventory software. It's not like the register is concious of what you order, it just checks to see if item #X has an ID flag set. If it is, it stops the sale and asks the clerk to check ID.

      2) He's making shit up to try and be dramatic.

      I mean peaches certianly aren't globally restricted. We just bought some the other day, no problems, as I imagine millions of people did. You would hear about it if they were sending flags up all over.

      As for check ID items, it's up to the store how far they go. Like with alcohol I've had the entire range. Some simply dismiss the warning assuming fomr appearnace I'm over 21. Some check my ID each time. At grocery and convience stores they are usually more carefuly. Some check the ID and enter the birthdate in the register, some have you scan it in a little machine that checks. The most extreme case I saw was at a Frys which is near the university and a couple of high schools, thus lots of underage purchaes. They check your ID, record it, and make you sign the book they recorded it in.

      Basically it's the levle of CYA they feel necessary to not get fined/shut down. Fact of the matter is, someone will fool them and buy underage. Well if a fuss is made of it, the liquor board investigates. They then have to prove they took steps to stop that from happening. The liquor board deicded based on that if they were really trying and it was an honest mistake, or if they are being delibratly lax.

      thus the response depends on the store, it's not government mandidated, the government just says "You can't sell to minors and you are responsable for taking steps to make sure you don't." Up to you to determine the kind of steps and the proof you keep of them so you can defend yorself if need be.

      But ya, I am not seeing any federal peach crackdown here. If that's the case, we'd probably hear about it on CNN.
  • Just walk away (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AndroidCat (229562) on Friday July 28 2006, @10:59PM (#15803887) Homepage
    Id for grille lighters and peaches, huh? And why didn't you just walk away loudly commenting on the store's idiotic policy?
    • Re:Just walk away (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28 2006, @11:28PM (#15804009)
      Id for grille lighters and peaches, huh? And why didn't you just walk away loudly commenting on the store's idiotic policy?

      The peaches incident was probably a register mistake. But in a number of states you need to be 18 or older to purchase a lighter by state law. I tried to purchase one once when I was 17 so I could burn the trash out back like I had done every week for nearly a decade, and I was denied. Apparently the law presumes that lighters will only be used for smoking, and couldn't be used for things like, you know, burning trash, or making smores. It's another classic example of lawmakers restricting a wide spectrum of basic freedoms to fight a single pet cause of self-endangerment.

      This is the same mentality as occurs in sweeping laws to fight "child pornography", and sweeping laws to fight violence in video games, and sweeping laws to protect people from the internet, or the prevention of pseudophedrine purchases for fear of meth labs getting it. If we could get people to stop asininely voting for politicians on the basis of those pet causes, then freedom would not be encroached nearly as much as it currently is.

      What we are living in is a culture war between people who want personal freedom, and people who are immersed in irrational emotional fear.
      • by Dachannien (617929) on Saturday July 29 2006, @01:10AM (#15804359)
        and wanted to buy an AA battery for my alarm clock. I was out in the suburbs and the only shop I could find selling batteries was an electronics shop specialising in larger items, like stereos et al. So to buy my AA battery I had to fill in two forms, give address and phone number, etc etc...

        Let me guess: the small, poor country you were in was the United States, and the store you went to was the local Radio Shack.
  • by aldeng (804728) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:02PM (#15803900)
    "The big question now is: how much worse can it get?" Wrong. The big question is what are we going to do to stop this. It's our government, dammit.
    • by StefanJ (88986) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:24PM (#15803994) Homepage Journal
      No, I'm not a libertarian.

      I would be if they were balls-out scrappers for freedom and liberty for all humans. But too often they stop at property rights, and assume that a good round of deregulation and tax cuts will fix everything else.

      Freedom and rights have to be fought for. The enemy isn't just the government; it includes corporations.

      Human rights must come before corporate rights. Too many Libertarians I know seem uncomfortable with that.

      So, which party to turn to? Right now, there's no clear choice. But for now, the first step is denying Bush the convenience of a rubber stamp congress.

      That means holding your nose and voting Democratic this fall.

      And stop being afraid.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28 2006, @11:03PM (#15803902)
    Don't forget that it's not just about privacy. The government basically has to create a state of perpetual fear, stir up hatred of the enemy, torture people, have an ongoing war, control information, and basically convince you to willingly see things that are false.

    Now, don't get me wrong, but I don't think we've come to that yet.

    cough cough fake terror alerts hussein abu ghraib war on terrorism fox news wmd in iraq cough
  • Listen closely (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DesireCampbell (923687) <desire.c@gmail.com> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:05PM (#15803911) Homepage
    This isn't a real question, this is a thinly veiled attempt at getting a conversation going about how terrible the US government is.

    Yes, there's a lot of censorship and surveillance going on. Yes, we have to be vigilant about everything we've heard.

    My fear is, the fact that we find out about these domestic wiretaps, secret European prisons - means that the people put in charge of these things are morons. Most people in the position to be doing important secret 1984-type dealings are smart. The things we know about are pretty bad - how much worse are the things we don't know about?
    • Re:Listen closely (Score:5, Insightful)

      by zCyl (14362) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:16PM (#15803957)
      My fear is, the fact that we find out about these domestic wiretaps, secret European prisons - means that the people put in charge of these things are morons. Most people in the position to be doing important secret 1984-type dealings are smart. The things we know about are pretty bad - how much worse are the things we don't know about?

      So are you proposing that we should or should not keep electing morons? Your argument could go either way...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 28 2006, @11:07PM (#15803919)
    The sad state of affairs is that Big Brother probably became a quiet part of our lives a lot earlier.

    Disagree.

    Most of these things came from the Bush administration. The last 6 years has been a cancer eating away at the very fabric of what it used to mean to be american.

    Phrases like 'truth, justice, and the american way' ring very hollow these days...especially to the rest of the world.
  • by Infonaut (96956) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:07PM (#15803921) Homepage Journal

    1984 was about the state controlling everything. In the current situation, the state is peering more heavily into everything we're doing because a lot of people are so afraid of Islamic terrorists that they're willing to give the state more power. This may or may not be a temporary situation, but the state obviously hasn't reached the level of control that Big Brother did in 1984.

    As for corporations watching what you do, the real question is whether Microsoft checking to see if you're using a pirated version of their software is somehow going to affect your political rights, or if it is just a stupid move on their part that will only push customers away from their products. After all, you only have one state. You can choose software vendors.

    • by honkycat (249849) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:24PM (#15803995) Homepage Journal
      I'm not a huge fan of sippery slope arguments (although I do think the sentiment is often in the right place), but do you think we need to wait until things are as bad as they are in 1984 before reacting? The real government may not be as authoritarian as the one in the book, but a major element that allowed that in the book to enforce its rules was the existence of the surveillance technologies. We are clearly at or very near a point that matches the technical sophistication in the book.

      We need to be careful to keep this technology from being used for ill. When something that's "kind of bad" is proposed, we need to react STRONGLY. Rights have a way of being chipped away and it's usually through violent conflict that these rights are regained. Better to protect them in the first place.

      Further, it doesn't really matter who it is that's doing the surveillance. If Walmart has the information, it's only a subpoena from being in Uncle Sam's hands...
  • by MarkusQ (450076) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:08PM (#15803926) Journal
    What can I, a person with no political interests--a person that would really rather think that the people in office are there because they're looking out for us, our rights, and our freedoms and not because their short-sightedness is creating a police state--do to stem the tide?
    It should be obvious, but I'll spell it out:

    Get some political interests

    Sticking your head in the sand will not help. So pull it out, shake out the sand, and get involved. And I don't mean you should flip a coin, pick the red team or the blue team, and blindly follow them.

    I mean that you should get active in holding your elected officials accountable for their actions, regardless of their party affiliation. Keep up on the issues and be vocal about them. Read and listen to opposing points of view and try to form and propagate valid opinions. Make sure your representatives know that someone is watching them, and follows what they do. If they lie, cheat, steal, or sell you down the river, nail them. Vote them out in the primary if you can, and in the general if you can't. Cross party lines if you need to, because you are far better off with an honest member of the opposing party than one of "your own party" who is willing to sell you to the devil for a few hookers.

    And, for that matter, do the same with your news outlets. And your local ballot boxes. If we paid half the attention to keeping the system honest that we do American idol or celebrity babies, we wouldn't have this problem.

    --MarkusQ

    • by MarkusQ (450076) on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:00AM (#15804124) Journal

      If you're interested in reading the account of someone who started out pretty much where you are, except that he's an attorney specializing in constitutional law, you might want to check out How Would a Patriot Act [amazon.com]

      From the back cover:

      Glenn Greenwald was not a political man. Not liberal, not conservative. Politicians were all the same and it didn't matter which party was in power. Extremists on both ends canceled each other out, and the United States would essentially remain forever centrist. Or so he thought.

      Then came September 11, 2001. Greenwald's disinterest in politics was replaced by patriotism, and he supported the war in Afghanistan. He also gave President Bush the benefit of the doubt over his decision to invade Iraq. But, as he saw Americans and others being disappeared, jailed and tortured, without charges or legal representation, he began to worry. And when he learned his president had seized the power to spy on American citizens on American soil, without the oversight required by law, he could stand no more. At the heart of these actions, Greenwald saw unprecedented and extremist theories of presidential power, theories that flout the Constitution and make President Bush accountable to no one, and no law.

      --MarkusQ
  • by amrust (686727) <marcrust.gmail@com> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:11PM (#15803940) Homepage
    Your attention, please! A newsflash has this moment arrived from the WalMart front. In honor of the massive overfulfillment of the ninth three-year plan... it's been announced that the NASCAR T-Shirt ration is to be increased to 3 per month!

    DoublePlusYeeHaw!
  • We're at 1983 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pjt48108 (321212) <pjt48108@ya[ ].com ['hoo' in gap]> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:23PM (#15803993) Homepage
    1984 is when the authorities catch a clue.

    Or, as Benny hill once said in a sketch, "My dog likes to chase cars, but if he ever caught one, he wouldn't know what to do with the damn thing!"

    Right now, the powers that be are dogs chasing cars, but they are close to figuing out what they'll do when they catch one.

    Enjoy this moment while it lasts.
  • What privacy? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MoneyT (548795) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:25PM (#15803996) Journal
    Let's take a way back machine a little bit. Way back before big faceless corporations, people shopped at corner stores, where the manager knew them by name, knew what their regular order was, and for the habitual customers even had the order ready before the customer came in the store. You couldn't get yourself into too much trouble because everyone in town knew you on sight and all of your local relatives. More often than not the cops knew you by name, and not because you were in trouble but because they were as much a part of the community as you were. Privacy hasn't gone anywhere. If anything the world today has given us MORE privacy than ever before. The difference is not the level of privacy but the range of interested people. Before you worried about the local cops. These days, you only wory about them because they can pass the information to the feds whom you're really worried about. Privacy really honestly does not exist, unless you act in a way to preserve it. In the old days that meant shutting your blinds and not leaving your house. Well you have to do the same thing these days, just electronicaly. Sorry, you can't have a credit card if you want privacy because it isn't your money, it's theirs, and so they have an interest in what you buy. Likewise for your internet and phone connections, use a public service, expect it to be public. The only way to have privacy is to keep to yourself. People don't keep to themselves because it's anti social and destructive. But like it or not, there really wasn't ever any such thing as privacy.
  • eightyfour (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BandwidthHog (257320) <may_2007@ironicallyenough.com> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:25PM (#15803997) Homepage Journal
    It wasn’t really about the surveillance. That was merely a plot device. It was about a state of mind and the means to achieve that state.

    In the superficial sense, i.e. electronic surveillance, much of what you mentioned has fallen into place over the past ten to fifteen years. And most of it has been implemented by commercial interests. As for the mindset? I, and I’m sure a whole lot of others around here, would say that the overwhelming majority of it has sprung up in the body politic within the past 58 months.

    May you live in interesting times, comrade.

  • by illuminatedwax (537131) <stdrangeNO@SPAMalumni.uchicago.edu> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:41PM (#15804047) Journal
    What needs to happen now is for people to understand what is going on. This kind of activity has a draining effect on society, basically sapping them of their notion of "freedom." Ask your neighbors, your parents, your kids, your peers: many of them will tell you that they don't mind that they are being treated like criminals. "Why worry if you're not doing anything wrong?" is the typical response. These people don't understand what "freedom" means. These days the word has come to mean "freedom to love America" when in fact it's the opposite we need to allow. So you can start by making sure the people you know, and others if you can, that if our freedom does have a chance of disappearing, and you need to educate them as to what that means.

    I'm not saying that this is happening now, though. We're getting closer, but the real danger comes from people who will welcome it when it comes. The single most important battle to be won is in the battle of ideas - that's politics these days.

    The other thing you can do is begin securing all aspects of your life. Try and use encryption over the internet; encrypt your emails and messages. Start using cash to buy stuff - the Japanese do it all the time; paying with credit or debit at a store is pretty much rare in Japan. Refuse to buy from the grocery store if they require your drivers license to prove you won't make cyanide when you buy peaches (are peach trees illegal now??).

    But important: if you DO make a fuss, DO NOT LOOK LIKE AN ASSHOLE. This is probably what most of you are capable of doing. If you do "fight the man," please do so in an orderly, respectful, and unannoying manner. If you get asked for your license at the grocer's, don't scream about it - people want to get through the line. Simply refuse to purchase from the store, and explain to those around you that you are being asked for your driver's license to buy peaches. The worst thing that can happen is for your ideals to be tied in with obnoxious behavior (this is what happened to liberals).
    • by alshithead (981606) * on Friday July 28 2006, @11:01PM (#15803892)
      So if there are many other real-world, "legitimate" examples of our freedoms being eroded how can you not have sympathy? Are your examples more important than the ones he considers important?
            • by alshithead (981606) * on Friday July 28 2006, @11:16PM (#15803962)
              And it's not even on the shelf. You have to take a card to the pharmacy and then show your ID. They want your phone number too. Like I need all that extra hassle when I feel like shit from having a bad cold.
    • by jabberwock (10206) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:06PM (#15803916) Homepage
      It's really nothing to worry about until you wake up in a bathtub full of ice, missing a kidney.
    • by blanks (108019) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:09PM (#15803934) Homepage Journal
      It's simple, its profiling or random checking for criminals.  Even criminals have to buy food, and if they scan in their license there is a general known area s/he frequents.

      The funny thing is that people are totally happy with letting companies and goverment track them.  Every purchase with your CC is tracked.  Every purchase with an "awards card" is tracked, and people are totally fine with this type of tracking.

      Personally I think it will get to the point where you no longer just punch in for a job.  You punch in to leave your house, enter your house, enter buildings,  ride public transit and so on. it will be so simple, we all ready have a trackable ID on us.  It would be simple too since they all ready do it with people on house arrest (talk into the phone and a device).

      But with RFID it will be even easier, and less noticable.
      • by Kadin2048 (468275) <slashdot@kadin.xoxy@net> on Friday July 28 2006, @11:39PM (#15804041) Homepage Journal
        It's closer than you think; many public transit systems already have the capability.

        The only thing stopping them from doing it right now is allowing people to purchase with cash. Cash is a problem, because it's harder to trace cash than it is to trace credit cards.

        I'll use for example the metro system near where I live, in Washington DC. It's an admittedly sophisticated system compared to a lot of other places, but it's nothing that futuristic. You can pay to use the metro (including buses) in one of two ways: you use either a credit card or cash, and you put the amount onto either a semi-reusable cardboard mag-stripe card, or a reusable RFID card. The RFID cards aren't (I don't think) stored value; they just chirp a serial number. So if you use one of those, it's fairly trivial to track you throughout the system, particularly if you load it with a credit card. Find the transaction where you added money to it, get the serial number of the card you put money on, and then follow that serial number around as you use it.

        With cash the problem becomes one of identification. You can still track someone around the system using their stored-value mag-stripe card, but identifying someone as they come into the system if they pay with cash is still a significant problem. The way to get around this would be either by requiring everyone to use some non-anonymous form of payment to get in (which might mean scanning a government photo ID when paying with cash) or automated face recognition. Since most public transport is filled with cameras as is, the latter might be the way to go.

        Of course none of this keeps you from buying a ticket (RFID or regular) and handing it to another person, so it wouldn't be foolproof, but I would be surprised if the police haven't used the electronic ticketing systems to figure out where suspects under pursuit enter and leave already. It's such an obvious use of the technology I can't imagine that they haven't, especially given the very high-crime areas that public-transport systems tend to run through.

        Personally, I feel that it won't be very long in the future when using cash is the mark of someone suspicious. (It already is, in large quantities and in certain places -- bought an airline ticket with cash lately?) That is, anyone using cash to purchase anything from food to movie tickets will be forced through additional scrutiny, not to mention odd looks from "honest" people (using their Visa cards as God intended).
    • Re:Big "OH Brother" (Score:5, Interesting)

      by rubycodez (864176) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:16PM (#15803956)
      maybe the peaches issue was just a data entry glitch, but the rest of the items are true. I myself am very angry at the absurdity of age/license checks for purchasing cough medicine. As if the big drug dealers will be buying 6 oz bottles of cough syrup to make the hundreds of gallons of narcotic. "But a few high school students made small amounts of drugs with this!", cry the Nanny-State bleeding hearts! "Look at me, I care about the children, so I voted for this law", says the power-grubbing dirt bag politician. For that matter, I was recently at the grocery store behind a 50 year old man who was refused the sale of a bottle of gin because he forgot his ID. This society is going to get a big punch in the reset button real soon, as the rewards of this increasing collective stupidity are reaped. For the simple truth is, the government has neither the competence nor resources to protect everyone from themselves, from each other, and from the realities of life.
    • by r00t (33219) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:28PM (#15804006) Journal
      Suppose we raise it to $60 an hour. Better? Would you still have a job?

      OK, that's too much. Well, how many lost jobs are acceptable? Can you give a number? If we raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour and lay off 15% of the workforce, is that good?

      More money is great as long as YOU don't lose your job. Everybody, even those already on minimum wage, thinks it'll be the other guy who loses his job or that some rich guy won't be so rich. Sure, and pigs fly really well.

      To pay the cleaning people their new minimum wage, we can get rid of one web developer. The other guys can work overtime to make up the loss. Then again, maybe it's just time for the company to go bankrupt and get rid of EVERYBODY.

      It goes the other way too. A smelly drunk isn't likely to get hired at $5.15 an hour, but his value might be above zero. He deserves a chance to work. The same goes for the fat girl with acne that makes people feel ill, the guy who stares inappropriately, the lady who has conversations with her knuckles... They all deserve a chance to work.
          • by Vicissidude (878310) on Saturday July 29 2006, @04:21AM (#15804894)
            Are you stupid? The man did not say that all pay should be equal. He said that the variance, the difference, between the low end and the high end should be reduced. Everyone in the wealthiest nation in the world should have enough to "pay for housing, utilities, health care, transportation, and a little extra for some fun." Basically, we should not be complete slaves to our economic conditions. In other words, we should be FREE and have the full rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

            These ideas are not communist. They're as democratic and American as mom and the flag and apple pie.

            The CEOs that run the corporations decide what people get paid. In fact, the CEOs even decide their own level of compensation since they control the board of directors and who gets accepted on there. You want a raise? Ask your boss. He'll look at his budget, which was handed down to him from his boss, which was given to him from his boss, all the way up to the CEO. You have no control over this organization. You did not vote in your boss. The CEO takes the money that you earn and gives most of it to himself. The corporation is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship.

            In fact, the corporation is so decidedly undemocratic since they decide what you can or can not say, even in your time off. They decide who you can or can not associate with, even in your time off. They decide what you can or can not do, even in your time off. The corporation is so undemocratic and so un-American that's it's completely laughable that anyone uses the "Communist" card to defend corporate policies of screwing the janitors making minimum wage in order to give the CEO another million dollars.
    • by ivan256 (17499) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:41PM (#15804051)
      Others will never notice they lost anything.

      You can't lose something that you give away.

      Most of those things he mentioned people think are great, because those things mean that they either get a bargain, or that they're protecting 'the children'. The rest of them people either don't notice or wouldn't care about even if you managed to successfully get them to understand why it is that you care about them.

      Maybe there will be another American revolution some day to try and put back into place a government whose altruistic ideals can be effected indefinitely.

      Yeah, right. Most of that stuff in the post didn't even have anything to do with state or federal govenrment. It was mostly corporate and people giving their privacy away under their own accord.

      The best part was where he described journalists as 'the people who are supposed to be looking out for him'. What a hoot. Somebody needs a lesson in capatilism, and some friendly advice not to be so trusting lest he look in the mirror and find out he's one of the people giving away bits of himself for no good reason.

      How come 30 million people have to try to live on $5.15 an hour? How are their voices not heard?

      Here's a hint: More than half of them aren't even old enough to vote if they wanted to (and if they were, they'd be statistically unlikely to vote anyway). The minimum wage is a heart-string issue. The Democrats tote it out to get emotional votes out of the section of their base that hasn't engaged their brain. It's the Democrats' version of school prayer.

      Not everybody needs to earn a living wage. Some people are dependents to other people, or are children. It is important that low wage jobs exist, or it would be difficult to get that first job that lets you start climbing the ladder. Stop and think, and read a bit. You will find that politicians and armchair economists are the biggest supporters of a minimum wage hike. It's never the people who are supposedly harmed by the low minimum wage crying for an increase, and most of the groups that advocate for those very same people think it's dumb too.... All those people want an expansion of the EITC [irs.gov] instead.
      • by plasmacutter (901737) on Saturday July 29 2006, @03:18AM (#15804753) Journal
        Here's a hint: More than half of them aren't even old enough to vote if they wanted to (and if they were, they'd be statistically unlikely to vote anyway). The minimum wage is a heart-string issue. The Democrats tote it out to get emotional votes out of the section of their base that hasn't engaged their brain. It's the Democrats' version of school prayer.

        wow.. you just trod all over your own argument.

        that leaves 15 million people who are earning below poverty wages who are NOT dependents of others... in other words they NEED a living wage and are not getting it.

        I have news for you people who complain about welfare leeches... half the time these people are pushed into that because if they make above a certain level of income.. they will be denied welfare, but their jobs will make them less than welfare!

        maybe if you raised the minimum wage, their jobs would make them more than welfare and they would not feel compelled to remain unemployed.

        So no.. it's not "the democrat's version of school prayer", it's a valid issue of exploiters paying sub-poverty wages, then lobbying for a "free market" whenever there is a push to raise those wages to a point where people can.. i don't know.. buy food AND a pay rent at the same time?
      • by megaditto (982598) on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:00AM (#15804123)
        Let me play Devil's advocate here:

        The 'free market' ended in 1930's for the same reason 'anarchy' ended in the stone age: a single strongman will fuck up the playing field for everybody by assimilating, subjugating, and repressing everyone else (while getting even stronger in the process). To take it to extreme, in a 'free market' there is nothing to stop some asshole buying a nuclear weapon, then collecting 'protection' money from you and me. There is nothing to stop GSK from patenting antibiotics as a concept, then charging $10,000,000 per pill. So what that 50% of children will not survive to adulthood (a la 19th century America), that's because they are too lazy to do anything else.

        Yes, the free market is the best possible scenario, except that human nature being what it is, the market will quickly degrade into something horrible if completely uncontrolled.
        • by cduffy (652) <charles+slashdot@dyfis.net> on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:18AM (#15804187)
          There is nothing to stop GSK from patenting antibiotics as a concept, then charging $10,000,000 per pill.

          Sure there is: If they price themselves out of the mass market, they wouldn't make any money that way.

          In any event, a patent is a government-enforced artificial monopoly. In a libertarian paradise (which you appear to be substituting for "free-market economy"), they wouldn't necessarily exist.
      • by poppen_fresh (65995) on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:02AM (#15804128)
        30 Million People live on minimum wage because they are too lazy to do anything else.

        Because everyone knows all the minimum wage jobs are the easy ones... Strawberry picking, aspalt laying, etc aren't hard at all

        If you want to make more money do better in High School

        You should visit some public high schools in poor areas some day. Hard work won't change that drugs are rampant, gangs rule the hallways, and you can't get a real education.

        Maybe you should go talk to real people that are poor. Two parents working two full time minimum wage jobs have trouble supporting a family. It may open your eyes that even though hard work can often result in success, for those in impovershied areas, or for those who are born with disadvantages or into a disadvantageous situation, hard work is necessary for survival, and that is often barely achieved.

        You're the one that needs to get real and realize that not everyone is born with a bevy of opportunities, and it's not easy to succeed, even with hard work.

      • Re:Chill out (Score:5, Insightful)

        by isotope23 (210590) on Saturday July 29 2006, @01:35AM (#15804448) Homepage Journal
        First : "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! " Patrick Henry

        Second : "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." Thomas Paine

        Third : "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions" --Samuel Adams, Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of 1788

        Fourth : "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

        FYI, I am not a liberal. I did not like clinton, But I detest Bush. He has IMO clearly vioalted his oath of office
        to preserve protect and defend the constitution.

        Lastly,in response to your " I paraphrase the Administration spokesman here, I would rather the government collected my call records than my remains"

        Patrick Henry was right, and americans today have become complete pussies to the point that most probably do not deserve freedom because they don't like the cost.

        • Re:Go Fig (Score:5, Interesting)

          by buswolley (591500) on Friday July 28 2006, @11:44PM (#15804064) Journal
          My view is this. If we had a perfect government with perfectly just and compassionate laws, then I would submit to total observation by the government. But we don't have a perfect government or a perfect world. Therefore, I do not want total observation.
            • Re:Go Fig (Score:5, Insightful)

              by TapeCutter (624760) on Saturday July 29 2006, @02:49AM (#15804682) Journal
              "Ghandi and King both worked in the open against unjust laws, and they won--by being in the open. If you're too cowardly to do whatever it is that you do out in the open, then you shouldn't be doing it."

              Neither Ghandi or King masterbated in public.
        • Re:Go Fig (Score:5, Insightful)

          by monoqlith (610041) on Saturday July 29 2006, @12:04AM (#15804136)
          Obviously, you didn't read it carefully enough either. This is interesting, since you seem to feel quite superior to the rest of us that think it's a very relevant piece of work.

          Surveillance and control are intimately linked. Once you remove the barriers against observation, you also remove the barriers against control. This would be one of the main themes of that entire book.

          It is very relevant because in our hyper-informational society, it is becoming easier to surveille people than ever, and information is being used *against* us as opposed to *for us*.

          The government should not be able to leverage what you do in your private life, what you do with your property, what you do with your money, against you, as long as you're not harming anyone else with your actions - and even when we do harm other people, we have institutions in place to protect ourself against the government - habeas corpus, the right to not incriminate ourselves, etc. It's the government that should be transparent and open to surveillance - not the populace. This is, after all, a *democracy* where the people, not any autocratic police government, are in power.

          If at any moment it is possible that you are being observed by someone - anyone - aren't you less inclined to exercise your freedoms? I certainly am.
            • Re:Go Fig (Score:5, Insightful)

              by roystgnr (4015) <roystgnr AT ticam DOT utexas DOT edu> on Saturday July 29 2006, @03:45AM (#15804803) Homepage
              (This is one of the surprisngly modern parts of Christianity, btw -- "and what you whisper in shadows will be shouted from rooftops" and all that.)

              If you are less inclined to exercise your freedoms when you are being observed, well, then you probably are confusing "excerise your freedoms" with "break the rules of good behavior". Please go back to kindergarten, I think you missed a few lessons on how to operate in civilzied society.


              Spoken like someone for whom "civilized society" has always been synonymous with "my own cultural mores". Ironically, that culture only survived to become a mainstream belief by carefully protecting its privacy amidst a larger, often hostile society. The fish symbol which car owners and companies use to advertise their Christianity today was originally intended to do the opposite, as a passcode to help Christians keep their beliefs secret from observers who might do them harm.
    • Re:Wrong dystopia (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Politicus (704035) <salubrious&ymail,com> on Saturday July 29 2006, @01:16AM (#15804377) Homepage
      The analogy was correct with respect to newspeak, "Healthy Forests Initiative", "Clear Skies Initiative", "Operation Iraqi Freedom", surveillance, indoctrination, militarism, "The US has always been at war with Al-Qaeda", nationalism, political use of fear and hatred and institutionalized ignorance, "Intelligent Design", "Stem cell research is murder". The only aspect that doesn't fit the analogy is socialism but you can have both right and left authoritarian societies. For every Stalin and Saddam, there's a Pinochet and Franco.

      If you are comfortable living in a space 10' a side, then you'll never notice the 12' square cell that you're in. American statism has been so successful precisely because controls are hidden since overt controls foment discontent. People are indoctrinated with American exceptionalism from birth. It is a very powerful myth and the backbone of control. Conformity is constantly being reinforced by your employer, church, school, college, customers and the media. Commercial consumerism is the modern day soma, to borrow from another dystopia.

      The main difference between 1984 and 2006 is that the state doesn't bother dealing with those who try to affect it rather than submit to its power because it only needs to neutralize effective dissidents. So, Noam Chomsky, for example, is allowed to do his thing because his message is neutralized by lack of access to mainstream media and the media's noise thrown up against it. Those who can't be reigned in by typical controls are incarcerated, disappeared or killed, "suicided" is the CIA term, as in any traditional authoritarian regime.

      * WAR IS PEACE

      * FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

      * IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

    • Re:Perspective (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Stoutlimb (143245) on Saturday July 29 2006, @01:28AM (#15804424)
      "Already many jobs require good credit."

      As someone who recently got refused a job that I went to school for on the basis of my credit rating, I agree with you that things have gone too far.

      Bork!