Socializing For The Win? 128
The Living Fractal notes: "Yahoo! Business has an article about workplace socializing. Apparently, those who drink alcohol and socialize make more money on average."
According to the article:
"Regular drinkers make 10% to 14% more money than those who do not drink, according to the study, conducted by the Journal of Labor Research, published quarterly by the Department of Economics at George Mason University, and the Reason Foundation, a Los Angeles-based think tank."
Fractal wonders: "This article spawns a few questions. Do those 'regular drinkers' end up spending that extra 10-14% on booze? Who here is a social drinker? Finally, have you noticed this in your workplace?"
Is it the alcohol, or the socialising? (Score:2, Interesting)
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Clearly, alcohol and socializing cause you to make more money.
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If you run with this set, you know how to take this on expenses. "Team building exercise". "Morale event". "Goal setting".
"Don't worry... I'll have Geoff sign."
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It follows logically that drinkers would get more (Score:4, Insightful)
So you, in your little basement office with the desk pushed all the way to the wall, get to churn out KLOCs until your fingers cramp up with CTS for a fixed salary. They, in their windowed corner offices with lovely assistants and fresh flowers, meet with customers and hammer out deals over a fifth of Wild Turkey and get paid a commission of their generated revenue. When you get to selling million dollar contracts, those margins add up really fast.
Yeah, no one told you life was going to be this way. Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's DOA. Shoulda studied management, eh?
Re:It follows logically that drinkers would get mo (Score:1, Interesting)
Bitter much? Remember, sales people lose their job when the
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However, I would like to point out that in the typical small office, when a salesperson fails the whole company suffers and engineers can get laid off right along with an underperforming salesperson.
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We could have this argument all day.. an underperforming sales person doesn't have a good product to sell because of the engineer, etc. Also, the reason why sales people have quarterly quotas is to avoid situations like the one you described. If the company only has one sales person, and can't suffer a bad quo
Re:It follows logically that drinkers would get mo (Score:5, Interesting)
Most 'execs' these days don't have assistants anymore. That role was killed to save money and now the role falls between them and their line managers. In the rare case where a PA does still exist, she's normally shared among 4+ execs.
Just one last question - where would your job be without those deals and those sales? Ever think that maybe some people hate the whole sales process, but they do it anyway because it's their job? How much fun do you think it is for a woman being pawed by a customer and not being able to say anything because it would cost her the sale? How much fun do you think it is for a family man to have potential clients oggling women and behaving badly, and not be able to say anything about it because it would cost the sale?
On the flip side, I've noticed that since not just going to work and going home, but staying around once or twice a month to socialise, my salary has increased by 30%. Just making contacts and networking is far more than learning some new technology.
Re:It follows logically that drinkers would get mo (Score:4, Insightful)
Where would their job be if they had nothing to sell?
Although I see your point, I think the main issue is to strike a balance between how rewards are distributed.
And - my highly subjective view - generally sales makes more than their fare share of it.
If, say, a coder makes something that has a high impact on company productivity he might go - probably - unnoticed. If a sales guy/gal makes a big sale, (s)he normally is a hero. That is, at least, what I tend to see.
Disclaimer: I'm in the academics "business".
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There is one significant place where this is the opposite of the truth. The darling of the business world. Google. But it's all lip service. We talk about emulating Google at my corporation, but it always comes out as, "Lots of good ideas there - but we need more management control, and we can'
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As a coder, it wouldn't matter if you spent your whole day finger-painitng on your basement cube wall - provided the sales team manages to sell their product image (NOT the product). In a slightly exagerated sense, it only matters that you're on payroll and they can say "we've got X number of programmers working on this project, it should be done by June!" or something like that.
Yeah,
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I don't really understand why academics is somehow not "part of the real world". The people in academics are real people, making real money, so I don't see how being a professor is somehow a less-real career than being a sales manager. Professors have to fight for grants and funding, and work for pay just like any other employee. In fact, many times the funding for academic projects comes from industry. Poli
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No kidding!
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The producers on the other hand are far down the pipe,
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Most sales folks I know are on commission. Their base salary is not very high. They work to land the big money deals not so much to be the 'hero', but because that is where the bulk of their salary comes from.
If it so happens the deal is big enough, they may be able to buy a new BMW from the commission.
But if they don't land the deal, the don't make the money.
So basically they traded a guaranteed salary level for the chance to make more on commission. There's nothing stopping developers from ask
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I also have no motivation to seek a higher salary based on anything other than job performance. Everything else reeks of ass-kissery.
Nice to know I'm not the only one. If social networking and ass-kissing is what it takes to move up the corporate ladder, then I'll just stay on the ground.
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Re:It follows logically that drinkers.... (Score:1)
Re:It follows logically that drinkers would get mo (Score:2)
Re:It follows logically that drinkers would get mo (Score:1)
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I think I liked the original version of that song better. This one doesn't even rhyme right...
A non drinker (Score:5, Interesting)
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But I have noticed that my distaste for social events with a heavy emphasis on alcohol can put me behind the eight-ball when it comes to some office politics.
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but on the whole I don't really know what to do with most of the money I'm paid anyway.
I've got it. You could use it on fellow Slashdotters that, through no fault of their own, do not yet know the intimate wonders and secret joys of an HDTV. I could point you in the direction of a few.
In all seriousness, though, if one has some extra money, there are some pretty financially safe things to do with it. Maybe a few CD accounts at a bank? Invest in some utilities? Treasury bonds? Even money in a van
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Bad form to reply to myself, but on second thought, utilities may not be a sure thing to invest money into in the wake of Enron. :-/
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Many people spend their money on things like bills, mortgage payments, and savings for when they lose their job. But maybe those things don't apply to you.
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Maybe it looks like I have more because I don't piss any of it away.
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Having money feels good (Score:2, Insightful)
- you don't want to live in a student hall forever
- you realize that you need some savings for retirement
- you don't want to call daddy if you need a new computer
- health insurance is much more expensive (students get special rates where I live)
- girl friend and family planning cost money
- jobs suck, so you might consider having your own company.
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And you are a college students, we all felt like that back in the day. Then the real world hits, and when your low paying job sucks just as much as the high paying one, what are you going to do?
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No offense man, but what a waste. Wish I had a nickel for everyone who kicked themselves later in life for the fun they didn't have when they had the chance.
-Eric
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Lot's of college kids now are pretty much abstainers. It's not like when I was in college. Now for fun, they bike and kayak and start million dollar web businesses. Crazy kids.
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Actually, if I had it to do over again I would opt for about 25% less fun and a bit more focus on the work. Not that things turned out badly; I graduated with honors and a double major. It just seems so inefficient in retrospect. Much better qualities of fun are available once one has the long green rolling in.
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I know a drinker who lives in a small, mostly-empty, apartment and drives a 10-year-old (but reliable) car even though we both have the same job and he could easily afford a house, or a bigger apartment, and car payments.
I also know more than a couple non-drinkers who seem to buy new pickup trucks every couple months and live in a huge house with a plasma TV.
I'd like to see some evidence of a link betwee
How did you think the world worked? (Score:5, Interesting)
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If you're not willing to assume that those who are getting promoted are promoted for their ability, you can't assume that management has the ability to sense the harm that an underperforming individual does. They are those underperforming individuals in your scenario!
Or you can assume that that's just a funny saying that's written about every day in Dilbert c
Re:How did you think the world worked? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Of course, if Dilbert says so it must be true. It's not just something that the bottom-rung workers say to themselves to make them feel better about their own lack of progress...
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He is a IT worker currently in an administrative role, working with a lazy beanworker and recently, an real IT job opened in the next service so they both asked to move to that position.
Guess which one their boss proposed to go to that other service (hint: guess which one he wanted to keep in his team): the guy who knows computers and is doing decently on his job although it is not the one he learne
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I drink alone (Score:4, Funny)
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I see no direct correlation. (Score:2)
I myself am a wine drinker, but I have never sat and had a glass of wine with a coworker. I do socialize a fair amount with my coworkers while at work, and some of us go out to lunch as a group, but no alcohol is served (mainly because it is against policy).
Then again, I work in advertising (I'm a graphic artist/web developer). I hang out with sales people a fair amount, and we all know sales people tend to be a bit off the statistical rocker.. :P
Bullshit (Score:5, Funny)
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*rimshot*
yeah but what about the percentage who... (Score:1)
Sure, good things come out of a relaxed social environment, but so do horrible things... pros and cons to be weighed carefully.
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Where I work, it's the smokers! (Score:1)
The other 10% of the decisions get made over drinks and more ciggies, I suspect...
Re:Where I work, it's the smokers! (Score:4, Insightful)
I have seen company's fold in the parking lot over cigarettes and seen people get rich on IPO's during the same. The big decisions are often made in the smoking room rather than the board room. It's a weird little club.
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When I was with the Ohio National Guard, I was trained as a Photographer/Videographer (25V, for anyone who wants to know). One of the Infantry units in the state was going to spend 2 weeks in England, training with the QLR (Queen's Lancashire Regiment, their version of the Nat. Guard). I was, naturally, doing a job that had nothing to do with my training.
While taking a smoke break, I overheard a General and a Major discussing how they would love to have someone to go and document the t
Drink! (Score:3, Interesting)
Causality (Score:1)
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Could have told you that (Score:2)
chicken, meet egg (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you making more because you're being social? It would not be surprising - if you're social you have a greater contact network, and you make a better early impression, so you'll tend to end up in better (higher paying) positions over time.
Are you social because you make more money? Perhaps to a small degree (don't discount it entirely), but on the face of it it should not be nearly as strong an effect as the opposite - and you can argue that with money comes power and there's no need to be nice anymore so you'd be just as likely to become less social instead.
Do you drink because you're social? Quite probably. Being social means getting along with people, and that includes spending time with people and doing what they do. And not infrequently social gatherings include drinking.
On the hand, does drink promote sociality? Yes, it does. For most people, moderate amounts does loosen inhibitions and relax the mind, making alcohol the renowned social grease it is.
So you can argue that if you're more social you make more. And you become more social by drinking, and if you're more social you're more likely to drink as well.
I don't think anybody would seriously try to argue that alcohol directly is connected to earning power. I'd like to hear a coherent argument in favour though.
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Sorry, I'm too drunk to argue coherently. If you ever need incoherent rambling, however, I'm your man.
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I drink with my boss, and get out my camera when the boss is incoherent. The next day we have a brief discussion about company expectations, goats and instant custard.
I get a pay rise.
Regards,
BOFH.
The theory is culturally dependent (Score:1)
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I know, because I'm the second example in most jobs. Luckily, the company that I'm in now is small enough that it's impossible to hide.
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Rob Walker, scion of the Johnnie Walker family and Formual 1 empresario, used to list his profession on official documents (including his passport) as "Gentleman." He used the term in a technical sense; one who has sufficient money that he doesn't need to sully his hands with money, other people both providing and spending it for him on his behalf.
Of
Re: The meaning of being social (Score:1)
You were correct with your statement up until that last point. Being a social person does not mean you have to do what other people do. Believing that you must do what other people do because it makes you a social person is a form of self-inflicted peer pressure.
In short, there is a not-so-subtle difference between being anti-social, a social conformist and a social independent.
gross generalisations to follow... (Score:1)
Nerds, by definition, are social outcasts and often display the body langauge of a nervous creature. Often the persons who are making the decisions about who gets hired and how much they get paid are people who see this nervousness as a sign of weakness and therefore assume the dominant role in this Employer/Prospective Employee relationship.
If the prospective employee is a nerd then it is likely that they have
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Part of the reason I still smoke is because of hte network it provides. Where and when else can I freely converse with everyone from middle or upper managers, all the way down to the cleaning crew? (Having a company which has 'set smoke breaks' is nice, in this respect.)
Granted, I might die 10 years earlier as a result, but I don't really give a fuck about that.
Booze Money (Score:1)
Who defines "social drinking" ? (Score:3, Interesting)
I mean, by Australian standards a "social drinker" is probably an alcoholic in America and a teetotaller in Ireland ;).
On a more serious note, it's not hard to see why there would be a correleation between socialising and improved job performance. Even ignoring the obvious schmoozing and brown-nosing possibilities, if you socialise more with people from work, you're far more likely to know more about how the business works, its current problems (and successes) and modify your work habits appropriately to address the problems and/or act on the strengths, thus making you a greater asset to the business and more likely to be prompted/paid more.
With that said, any attempts to attach a causative relationship between drinking and income is working on *very* shaky ground IMHO.
Backwards? (Score:3, Insightful)
I hardly ever drink, so I turn up to work on time and am alert, ready to do my (complicated) job. One of the other guys turns up with a hangover, feeling really bad and spends most of the day sat in his chair reading email and Wikipedia. Yet, because he spends more time socialising with the boss, he gets more perks and money.
Surely someone who is a reliable worker should be rewarded. I suppose it's a bit like how tall people tend to do better.
Face Time (Score:2)
True Here... (Score:2, Interesting)
Strange conclusion... (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny, I would have worded it differently:
Those who make more money on average drink alcohol and socialize more.
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Have you seen the type of swill that poor people (with lots of free time on their hands) drink?
I could easily make the argument that those who make less money will drink alcohol and socialize more. If you live near a relatively large city, go wander around and hang out with the alcoholic homeless people for a bit. They'll drink & socialize with you all day.
Alcohol and cigarettes aren't exactly tangible goods. When prices go up, it is
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It is the other way around. Let me tell a story...
If you die, and somebody is responsible (say, negligence, or recklessness), then your next of kin are entitled to compensation for your death. There's the whole "pain & suffering" bit, which is quite abstract, but there are also economic losses. That is, you, being dead, are no longer being paid, and that is money out of their pockets. Figuring this out is dreary economics and statistics, but it is quite measurable, and well presented economic dama
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tangible: capable of being perceived by the senses or the mind; especially capable of being handled or touched or felt
So these homeless guys drink virtual alchohol and smoke virtual cigarettes?
what causes what (Score:1)
or
Is making money causes more drinking ?
The study does not say what is causing what. Only that there is a correlation. I think that having more money makes it easier to have a drink, not the other way around.
Seems obvious. (Score:3, Insightful)
Socializing FTW!!!! (Score:1)
It looks like the comments are making their way to the front page now...
All the way from digg. (buries head)
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Socaillisign FTW!!!111!11!oneone!1!!!!eleven!1111
Or, on the other side of the story, (Score:2)
"Yahoo! Business has an article about drinking. Apparently, those who make more money, drink alcohol and socialize more on average."
It's shocking to think that people may actually not drink because they don't have the money for it, but you can't argue with Yahoo! They! are! very! serious! about! this!
The correlation is there, but... (Score:1)
I think this is true in the Navy... (Score:1)
Correlation != Causation (Score:1)
Or people who bust their ass to make that 10-14% more have no social life outside work, therefore are more likely to socialize with coworkers.
Damn straight it does (Score:5, Insightful)
Getting your boss drunk tends to make them be more intimate with you (not in the sexual sense) and they feel they can trust you more. They trust you more, so they feel safe promoting you or giving you a raise.
People hate the guy who doesn't do squat at the office yet is very charismatic and sociable and rises to the top. But what they don't realize is that being that sociable can actually be a lot of work. Especially across your entire network. You have to go out to lunch all the time to catch up with people...go to bars at night...throw get togethers...etc.
For an introvert like me, that's a lot of friggin work. But you know what? I recognize that that is how the game is played, and I play it, and play it well. And it has rewarded me. So I guess there's that.
Nothing on study methodology... (Score:1)
Sounds Backwards (Score:1)
Uh, I think you meant:
"Apparently, those who make more money on average tend to drink alcohol and socialize."
Using the original false logic, we could also say:
Apparently, those who host huge parties at their mansions make more money on average. So y'all better go buy your dang mansions and throw a party if you want to make more money!
Sales personnel skew the data (Score:2)
Attributing factors... (Score:2)
* The asshat in the office who never does anything and sucks is less likely to come out with the co-workers.
* The ones who go out probably enjoy the company & respect their coworkers.
* The completion of a long hard won project, or extra hours slogging away at the office is usually celebrated by a few rounds at the local pub.
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+1 insightful. I actually don't trust anyone who doesn't drink. I can't really find a scientific reason for it, but its a good indicator of how real someone is.