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Future Game Coders - Online Education or College?
Posted by
Cliff
on Tue Mar 27, 2007 06:30 PM
from the a-fork-in-the-road dept.
from the a-fork-in-the-road dept.
An anonymous reader asks: "My cousin is about to graduate high school and wants to enter the game industry. I told him to get a day job (possibly as QA in a game studio) and get an online degree like DeVry's Game and Simulation Programming degree or The Art Institute of Pittsburgh's Game Art & Design degree. I have a BS and an MS in Computer Science, and I've only found what I learned mildly useful for my game programming hobby. Should he suck it up and get a 4-year degree, or is taking online courses focused on game development the way to go? Has anybody gotten one of these degrees and done well for themselves?"
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That's ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
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"The Future" or "the future" (Score:5, Insightful)
If he might want to change to something else later, say outside of computer programming even, get the 4-year degree.
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Re:"The Future" or "the future" (Score:5, Insightful)
the 4-year degree is more about improving yourself as a person and learning how to learn than it is about training for a specific career. An added bonus is that it looks significantly better on a resume than a "fake degree"
Go to college, have fun, major in what you find interesting (you may discover you dont really want to be a game programmer at all and instead love cell biology...who knows) and take classes that will allow you to branch out in different directions (learn how to code...take a microeconomics course...make sure you can write well...do all of those and you will be fine no matter what you want to do)
Parent
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Computer science, by far (Score:5, Informative)
Unless the university totally sucks, a computer science degree contains most of the important stuff for game development: maths, maths, applied maths, more maths. Did I mention some math? Oh, and some system programming.
In the end, thats all what games are about.
I didn't check by myself, but my girlfriend who goes to CMU told me they have a graduate program for game programming thats fairly popular with EA too I think, so then one can kill 2 birds with one stone: have a fairly decent CS degree, and game specific education, with a potential big name having you in their line of sight as soon as you graduate... Its almost a flawless plan, if it is true.
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Well, if you want to implement a physics engine you'll need some tensor calculus and differential equations. That was covered in a single year at my university (I don't remember if it was the first or second year).
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And if you want to implement AI? What if you're working for a company that isn't interested in last years' games, but next years', which might feature fluid simulation or something? And what about the next generation of multi-core CPUs where locking will be so expensive that you'll need to start using lock-free programming?
It might just be me, but I would not hire anyone who deliberately learned as little as possible, to do only just what was required to do last years' job.
The best favour you can do you
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I've worked in image recognition field, it doesn't really need much math too. Intelligence of game bots needs even less math.
As for parallel programming (BTW, one of my favorite languages is Erlang) - you don't need math at all for it. You do need a good knowledge of CS, but it's not university math.
But you might just like math
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For the record, I'm specifically talking about a general computer science education, with maths. Now read on...
No, it doesn't, but how can you make an informed choice between two path-finding algorithms? No, you don't have to have seen and analysed them both before, but you at least need to be able to do the analysis.
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My advice (Score:2, Interesting)
There's no real need to rush to college or start paying for speciality education right out of highschool. Make sure you like the smell the roses before you want to grow them.
Greater options with a regular degree (Score:5, Insightful)
An on-line degree is unlikely to open the doors that a degree from a regular college or university will.
Even from a regular college or university, the choice of the school can make a big difference. Years ago, I sent in an application to one company in New York City but never heard back. I mentioned that to someone who was familiar with that company. According to him, it is nearly impossible for anyone without a degree from an Ivy League School to get any kind of development job there.
So the choice of school does matter. A degree from an on-line school won't open near as many doors as from a regular school.
what 4 year degrees are for (Score:5, Insightful)
a) to further prepare you for a professional working life.
b) to give hands-on training with hardware you couldn't afford at home.
c) for people who can't learn as well on their own.
d) breaking into a career that heavily depends on diplomas.
Ask your cousin if he needs any of this, and he'll know his answer. D is definately a hurdle for programming jobs, but it fades as you gain experience to vouch for your skills.
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a, c, d and right on the mark though.
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(Of course, my first thought when logging on and noticing that I currently had the whole system to myself was "is there really anything I'll need this much power for?")
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Re:what 4 year degrees are for (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
RPI's new Game major! (Score:2, Insightful)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute just got their new Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences program out the door--your son can get a four-year education in Game Design with one of five concentrations, or elect to take a dual-major or dual-degree with GSAS and a more traditional major like CS, Psychology, or something else.
I'm a freshman at RPI and I'm not planning on transferring into this program, but I am planning on taking a minor in Game Design Studies, which has been available
Community College is the better option (Score:2)
We've got coders who are self taught, coders from 4 year programs, and across the spectrum in between. I would mainly suggest NOT going to DeVry or a vocational program like it. They don't offer a very strong foundation or practical projects to learn on. Go to a local community college and start working on mods if you want the cheaper/faster approac
A few points (Score:4, Insightful)
Vocational education will teach him how to code. A college education will teach a much broader range of things. Note that the games industry isn't all about coding, and if/when he gets sick of it, the college degree will be applicable to a much wider range of jobs.
I'd suggest that he intern at a games company for a little while and see if it's really what he has in mind. And if he thinks it is, then he can choose between learning to code and learning a broad range of skills, depending what he sees himself doing there.
Better solution (Score:5, Insightful)
I would recommend 8-10 cups of strong coffee per day, so that he can stay up writing code for 12-16 hours, 7 days a week (start slow - 10x6, then work up to 16x7). Not fun code, but really mind numbing stuff. Get a good test project, then let him go at it. Figure a good project might be 4-6 weeks long (say, 500-600 hours of programming). When he gets about 75% of the way through - ideally when he starts seeing the light at the end of the tunnel - change the specs. This will be hardest for you, as you'll need to phase the changes so that there are 2-3 new things that need to be incorporated each week, plus 2-3 things that will need to be rewritten. Make sure that you throw in the rolling-rewrite or two - somehting he's already rewritten that "needs" to be changed...again. If you're certain he's not saving old code, do a re-set once in a while to make him re-code something he's deleted as not needed anymore.
If he's not a slobbering idiot in 8 months, he'll at least be ready to save yoy a year's worth of tuition by taking 22-24 credits per semester. And you'll know he can hack the EA deathmarch. Well, at least until he has a family.
I work in the industry... (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, and QA won't help you get an engineering job. It will take time away from school. Better off spending that time writing a demo or something, as that would be more impressive than saying how you tested X and thought Y would be a better way to do it.
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4-year degree trumps. (Score:2)
I could just say "specialization breeds weakness", but I'll actually give a little more this time, I think :)
The usefulness of a 4 year degree is obvious - although game dev is gaining more and more cred, I would wager that many non-gaming businesses would hesitate to hire someone with a gaming degree (you don't always get to jump right into your ideal career, in many cases). Beyond that, the experiences from a good 4 year program are more than just learning how to make games - think of it like Public Sc
Advice from a professional game software engineer (Score:5, Insightful)
For the love of god, get a real degree. "Game" degrees are useless outside the game industry, and a joke and target of pity from within the industry.
Re:Advice from a professional game software engine (Score:2)
Heck, heavily advertised degree programs come in two sorts: Diploma Mills, which make their money by selling degrees with no value, and Turnover Engines, which make their money by enrolling people who subsequently drop out due to real life constraints, dissonance (it was harder than I expected) or disillusionment (I'm paying for what?).
A degree in video games is ideal for a Turnover Engine school: people think, "hey I like games, maybe I should w
Re:Advice from a professional game software engine (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Degrees are for showing you can do work (Score:2)
The longer and harder the degree, the more someone will believe you can learn and do work, in a very generic sort of way. If his vision of a career in games is working for someone else to make their games, then this is going to have an upside. So spend as much time and effort as possible; it's all about sending a message.
If he wants to make games and isn't thinking in terms of working for someone else, then top priority is to start writing games. Right now. If that's the way he wants to go, then CS may
Computer Science is a Mathematics degree. (Score:2)
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No, just no. While Computer Science is definately extremely useful, and many jobs (like game development) are nice bets for it, saying that a CS degree should not teach you about practical programming because you can pick that up on your own is insanity. CS Degree should not focus on programming, that is correct (it should have a little bit, since it is applied math, but not much, you are right).
However, practical programming also is taught in school: its called software e
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Having worked in several organisations who've used outsourcing, the first ones to go are usually the ones with the technical, day to day programming skills while the ones who remain are the ones who understand the business processes. Hell, I've got a CS degree from a good university. Big wow. You know what? I've barely used any of it since I graduated. Have I ever been, or do I consider myself i
College, definitely college (Score:2)
From someone who just got a game job... (Score:2, Informative)
I think the 4-year degree is the way to go, assuming you are looking at a programming career path. Here's why:
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That said, game programmers are, as you say, underpaid, and I'd only assume it is worse for game testers.
My advice would be to stay well clear of the game industry altogether.
But to think of it another way, being a game programmer is a reasonable path to becoming a well-paid, professional programmer. It just won't happen while you're actually writing games. Gam
College, no question about it.... (Score:2)
I have my own question... (Score:2)
How hard is it to get into the game development field for a programmer who has done 15 years of programming, but not game programming (for example in my case: desktop and web development (2/3rds desktop development) doing all sort of languages (my strongest being, these days, C#, C++, and (unfortunately, and outdated) VB 6). Have a 4-year Computer Science degree from University of Tulsa (got it in 93) and been programming ever since.
I was curious on the feedback (if at all to my q
Re:Art, art, and more art (Score:5, Insightful)
Please note that the questions is about "Game coders", not about music developers or graphics developers. The reason it's better to educate yourself in Computer Science and Software Engineering is because you want to be a scientist / engineer, not a mechanic. Game programming is still programming and has all the requirements (In fact, at times more challenging requirements) as any other sort of programming. And don't we all keep telling college kids to focus on the "Science" aspect of "Computer Science" for the long run benefits?
A Compsci degree will train the student to think in an analytical way to solve problems and understand the mathematical background of games. While a game design specific degree will train the student to follow an already defined path (Which will get obsolete in a couple of years anyway). A computer science student will be able to handle all problems technical or otherwise reasonably well. Game programming is a complex field. Not having thorough understanding of maths and computer science can only produce average-at-best programmers. In fact, in some cases, even maths and physics graduates will be more valuable to a game programming task than a game design degree holder.
For now, knowing game programming doesn't mean that you understand computer science. But the other way round is true (To some extent).
Parent
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I'll give you a hint, it's not because we're reusing the stock engine for the game we just finished, or any other stock game engine, for that matter.
As for the original question, get a four year college degree. Good fundamentals are the most important thing I care about when looking to hire
Re:Art, art, and more art (Score:4, Interesting)
Depending on where you'd like to go with it, you may or may not require a computer science degree. If you're looking to get into the hardcore parts of engine design then computer science may be for you. There's an awful lot of complicated concepts required at that level, both in terms of application design, and mathematics. For 3d engines you need to know a good deal about 3d vectors, matrices, quaternions. If you're looking at programming AI then you've got to have not only a solid foundation of understanding the mathematics of the engine but also AI's own fun programming style, such as finite state machines, and graphs (especially with respect to pathfinding), just to throw a couple of the more popular AI paradigms out there.
On the other hand, if you're just looking at doing game logic code, which is still vastly important to a game (since it handles the details of gameplay), then CS might not be as important. A strong foundation in programming and at least an understanding of some of the topics stated above is an asset. As a modder, this is where I stand now. My education isn't complete, and I simply don't have the time to be fiddling around with creating my own engines or modifying those that already exist.
Game logic includes things like defining how items are stored in a player's inventory, building the bridge between the inventory UI and the inventory in memory, how enemies are spawned, the interaction of agents with the environment, etc. While some may describe it as being more "menial" (i.e. some may claim that there is not a lot of challenge when hooking up an interface with an API), I would say that game logic is still highly stimulating and provides a good degree of challenging problems to be overcome. While engine designers may be making interesting innovations in the world of graphics and physics, the logic coders are the ones making interesting innovations in the world of gameplay. To pull a quick example, Gears of War's "active reload" is something that is handled by game logic and not the engine, and I consider this to be at least a little innovative.
To further a counter-point to parent, the Doom 3 engine was licenced to Human Head for the production of Prey. Human Head did not simply have a team of artists that put assets and maps into the engine until they had a game. There was still a vast amount of change that needed to be made to the engine and the game code to handle the new things that happened in Prey. Portals that could be shot and seen through, anti-gravity, the ability to leave your body, etc. all did not exist in Doom 3. These had to come from somewhere; the coders from Human Head, that worked on a pre-designed engine. "Completed" engines do not preclude programmers.
From an employment standpoint, I can offer no advice. I have never been employed at a development studio nor have I applied.
Parent
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Total BS. The staff on most games is about 40% engineering. There are more artists per title than programmers, but the programmers make more money. I know because I work as a Rendering Engineer for a game company.
Programmers are needed to do everything from writing the code to optimize a mesh's index list for the GPU's post-transform cache, to writing blinn shaders, to making sure that the sliders work in the game so that the artists can work. The visual quality of a game depends on both artists and engi
Re:Art, art, and more art (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's WHY you want a 4 yr B. Sc. degree:
* You will be exposed to the breadth of comp sci. Games are one of the few applications that require you to know a little of EVERYTHING. Specifically:
If games sound a lot like an Operating System, it is because they practically are!
* Sure some of the classes you will never use again, but at least you'll have the language and the background to know WHEN you should choose one algorithm over another, and the pros/cons of each. i.e. static arrays over dynamic lists, etc. Learning big O notation will help in this.
* YES, you probably could be be a great games programmer without a degree, but it's hard to prove it without experience. To get experience you have to demonstrate you have the knowledge. (classic chicken-egg) That piece of paper shows that at least you
a) understand the basics, and
b) were committed to finish getting it.
* Lastly, don't get into game programmers for the money. The pay stinks, & the are hours long. (BOO Crunch Time). Only the crazy ones survive in this industry (avg turn around time is There is always something NEW to learn, especially when the "next-gen" consoles come out. (Usually scratching your head at trying to figure out how to best make efficient use of the hardware)
Cheers
Parent
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* Lastly, don't get into game programmers for the money. The pay stinks, & the are hours long. (BOO Crunch Time). Only the crazy ones survive in this industry (avg turn around time is less then 5 years before jumping to another industry) because we eat, breath, and live code, and like constantly being challenged. There is always something NEW to learn, especially when the "next-gen" consoles come out. (Usually scratching your head at trying to figure out how to
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