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You Played Violent Games - Why Can't Your Kids?

Posted by Zonk on Mon Apr 09, 2007 06:21 AM
from the time-to-sit-your-kid-down-to-have-the-frags-and-camping-talk dept.
An anonymous reader writes: "On the Wired site, Clive Thompson has up an article that points out a sobering truth: gamers are getting older. Folks who grew up playing videogames like Doom and Quake are now facing parental decisions with their own kids regarding appropriate content. Thompson cites well known gamer dads like Kotaku's Brian Crecente, discussing some of the approaches folks educated in gaming take with their own offspring: '"Everybody knows, as an adult, that the world is not always a nice place," Crecente told me. "But I don't want him to know that yet. I want him to have a childhood." So he disallows games with "realistic" combat, like World War II titles, or Resistance: Fall of Man, but permits highly cartoony shooting, like Starfox on the Nintendo DS -- since he regards it as essentially as abstract as playing cops and robbers with your fingers as guns.' Where do you think gamer parents should draw the line? If you have kids, what approach are you taking to introducing them to gaming? How old is 'old enough' to start fragging?"
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  • My vision on things (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jawtheshark (198669) * <slashdot&jawtheshark,com> on Monday April 09 2007, @06:26AM (#18661231) Homepage Journal

    I don't know what I'd do, but I do know what my parents did... both non-gamers, but my dad was (and is) quite proficient with computers. Our advantage was that the computer came "late in the game", so I was about 12, my brother 14 and my little sister was 8.

    Computers were expensive and we had to share one computer. My dad or mother didn't say "one hour", no, they said it had to be fairly distributed. The system introduced was simple and self-regulating: write down what you were playing and at what hour you started and stopped. Your siblings could come in at any time and say "hey, you already played an hour... it's my turn". That meant, finish level and/or save and let your sibling have a go. Whining brought you nowhere, because mom or dad would invariably take the side of the person that had played least.

    No things regulated "playing time" quite fairly and the net result was that we played each about 1 hour to 1.5 hours a day. Pretty much what the article stated.

    Now as for violence and/or sex in videogames. My parents never forbade any games. We had the full programme Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, etc... Blood and gore were not a problem. (Heck, later we loved to play a game called "Blood"... Good times!) In the early days we mostly played Sierra games (a dying breed... alas...) and it helped us (okay, perhaps just me) learn English. I sat there for hours with my dutch-english dictionary. Fun times... We also had stuff like Strip poker and our good old Leisure Suit Larry.

    The only thing I remember is that my dad forbade Syndicate... Or better said, we had to play it with headphones. He abhorred the sound of the people burning when using the flamethrower.

    The main problem is not the nature of the game. Wolfenstein let us kill humans after all. Except, they didn't look much like humans then, did they? A current game with current graphics is way closer to reality than whatever we had.

    On the other hand, I think kids tend to be self-regulating in what they want to do. Younger kids simply won't be interested in shooting people/aliens. They will probably go for the more colourful games. I see this when my fathers in laws kids from his second wife are here. They never ask to put stuff like GTA3, even if I let them choose from my PlayStation2 library. It's always stuff like Kya [wikipedia.org], eyeToy Groove or Sonic Heroes.

    Teenagers will probably love stuff like GTA3, Halo, whatever... but there all bets are off. You cannot control them. They already watch violent movies, they play the games you don't want them to play at friends. In the teenage years, parents have to let loose slowly but surely. Something I also learnt from my parents. (Note that when we got a computer, we were pretty much teenagers)

    I know you can tell by now that I think my parents did a great job.... I plan to inspire me as much as possible from what I learnt from then.

    • by jovetoo (629494) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:49AM (#18661369) Journal
      That system would work perfectly... if your parents succeeded in raising you well in general.

      If you raise your kids well, they will recognize what is a game and what isn't... and in the end, that is the issue here.

      • In that case, the message is simple: Raise your children well....

        Easy to say, of course... Difficult to put into practice.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          FTFA;

          If you have kids, what approach are you taking to introducing them to gaming? How old is 'old enough' to start fragging?


          For the first part of that; `Don't feed a coin slot.` is the morale of my story and the grease that helped bring the console into my home.

          For the second part of that; It ain't the frags that worry me, it's the gibs that raise red flags with me.
        • You're forgetting, though, the most important part of being a parent:

          Banning your kids from doing anything you thought was fun as a child.

          Listen, I was living on high with a pad of my own, 100k surplus to spend on whatever I wanted, and then I got tied down with those little shits... why should *I* be the only one to suffer for it?!

          (ED: BakaHoushi is a 20 year old jobless college student. Any resemblance to actual fact in the above post is unintentional and completely coincidental.)
          • by Hoi Polloi (522990) on Monday April 09 2007, @09:43AM (#18662909) Journal
            BTW, this rule applies to medical and grad school.

            "I had to work 14 hours straight during residency so you should too!"

            "I had to spend every night, and holidays, in the lab working on my research and getting no credit for it and so should you!"
    • by Ngarrang (1023425) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:38AM (#18661643) Journal
      When I was a kid, the "violent" games where 8-bit pixelated. The games now are much different. With graphics approaching nearly the realism it is, the games take on a new light.

      I probably won't let my kids play the violent games of their day. Racing games and sports games, yes. FPS with gruesome graphics showing blood spurting from a beheaded body? No. Not until they are older and have the intelligence to understand the different between games and reality.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        I agree. I remember playing Duke Nukem when I was about 10 years old. The violence in that game was terrible enough, but back then the graphics were still really cartoony. When I watch my boyfriend play Rainbow Six: Las Vegas, it's like a totally different game even though it has the same basic idea (walk around and kill the bad guys). I think I'll stick to more family friendly games. Nintendo seems to be a big fan of the family style game, so we'll probably buy their systems for the kids (and we'll hi
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Nintendo seems to be a big fan of the family style game, so we'll probably buy their systems for the kids

          Sure you won't find Postal on their systems but Call of Duty 3 is still a pretty violent game...

          For older kids though I prefer the Rainbow Six covert style of games where kids don't think they're omnipotent... Those covert games teach them that a bullet will kill, not just decrease your health a bit which you'll recover later on...
      • by zrobotics (760688) on Monday April 09 2007, @09:01AM (#18662401)

        Well, while I understand your reluctance to let your kids play more realistic modern games depicting violence, I don't know if better graphics make the games more detrimental to your children's mental health. When you were killing aliens and monsters in Doom and Wolfenstein, you knew exactly what you were doing. It didn't look anything like real life, but you were still running around shooting things with a gun. I don't think more realistic graphics can change the argument-If it was a safe activity for you when you were a kid, it should be as safe for your kids now. When I first got Doom, my mother was fairly upset. Even though the graphics left much up to the imagination, the sight of pixellated blood flying about disturbed her. It wasn't the realism of the graphics that disturbed her; rather, it was the intent behind her child's actions that disturbed her.

        I'm not advocating that you change the way you raise your kids, I'm just making a point

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        I'm an old fart (compared to teen gamers) and I could do without the gruesome death gurgles and blood sprays in BF1942's Desert Combat. I'm more interested in clever gameplay than realistic gore.
        • by binary paladin (684759) <binarypaladin.gmail@com> on Monday April 09 2007, @05:29PM (#18668763)
          Yep, that's how it goes. When I was young one of the popular shows was GI Joe and my brother and I watched it whenever it was on. We had a lot of the related action figures and vehicles too. One of the things that always annoyed us, even at 4 and 6-years-old, was the fact that no one ever died. It's not like we were cheering for death, but it seemed a little ridiculous that every time an airplane exploded that some random Cobra jackass was parachuting out. You have entire battlefields of guns blazing and NO ONE gets killed.

          So, when we had the action figures in our grasp, people got wasted all the time. That's just one of many things. We did Cowboys and Indians, soldiers, knights in shining armor, Star Wars, whatever. The object for my brother and me, as well as any of our typical male friends, was the KILL THE BAD GUY. Given our evolutionary background, this isn't all that peculiar. Boys have been doing this for... well... I would guess throughout our whole existence. Even my sister, having two older brothers, did the same stuff. She turned out all right too.

          Hell, my dad, once we got to be around 7 or 8ish used to read us fantasy novels in chunks rather than children's books. He read the Hobbit to my brother and me as well as the Iron Tower Trilogy. The latter had quite a bit of violence in it.

          And I have to say this, children have vivid imaginations. My brother did, my sister did and I did. Scary graphics on the computer, no matter how realistic, have got nothing on what I could and did form in my own head. Although, with that said, I don't think putting a 5-year-old in front of GTA3 is a good idea either. Is there an age? No. You need to know your own kid and his/her level of maturity. The biggest problem we seem to have today is that parents want other organizations and technology to raise their kids.

          I think this society has become way too paranoid. WAY too paranoid. As a joke, my sister got me a DVD with some old He-Man episodes on it the other day and my friends and I sat down and watched it for a good laugh. Given the freakish religious state of the nation right now, I can just see massive protests about Skeletor's staff with the Ram's Head on it and all the "evil magic."

          Really, what it's come down to, is that no one wants to take responsibility for a damn thing any more. If a kid goes bonkers... it's not his fault, it can't be that his parents were crap parents, it can't be that being abused by school mates breaks people, it can't be teachers or administrators that did nothing about it... let's blame the faceless video game makers and gun makers and people who make violent movies. It's ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. When I was a kid, when I did something dumb or hurt someone else, my dad belted me and that was that. I didn't go into therapy to discuss my feelings. THe belting was quick, simple and did the trick.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      "A current game with current graphics is way closer to reality than whatever we had. "

      I think this is the most interesting issue here. While its still VERY clear to my kid (6 year old Girl) the anything on the screen is not 'real', even the people are usually talkling rubbish, games are going through a continued, fast pasted, evolution. IF games ever became more intertwined with are lives, or SO imersive that you forget your in them, then the psychology will get tricky and relevant. But right now, my 6yr

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      As an only child and a proud father of 5 (ranging from 8 years to 6 months) I know what I went thru as a kid gaming. I had a computer, NES, SuperNES, and, later, a N64. My parents would get me any game that I asked for, as long as we could afford it. I'm doing the same thing with my kids. The oldest has her own computer, with lots of games and PaintShop. Most of the games that she wants are Barbie, Bratz, Trollz, and things like that. My boys also have their own computer, with the same amount of games insta
      • I wouldn't let my kid play games like WOW or Neverwinter Nights. They'll grow up thinking it's ok to be prejudiced against orcs and that you can just go around robbing dragons.

        On a serious note though. I'd say the biggest problem games pose for anyone, kid or adult, isn't losing track of reality vs the game it is losing track of time and wasting huge amounts of time on it. Games are supposed to be a relaxtion and a break from reality, not an escape or substitute.
  • by VirusEqualsVeryYes (981719) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:26AM (#18661233)

    Where do you think gamer parents should draw the line? If you have kids, what approach are you taking to introducing them to gaming? How old is 'old enough' to start fragging?"
    As with everything related to parenting, there are no hard and fast rules. Good parents will get a feel for how mature their kids are, and afford them the appropriate privileges. Mediocre parents will rely on the ratings on the boxes, and bad parents (or the politically-correct "distracted" parents) will let their kids play whatever.

    FWIW, Crecente seems to have some pretty reasonable rules here.
    • So, what you're saying, if I understand this right, is... that every child is different. That some kids mature slower, some faster, and some kids can handle what some can't. That there is no "magic number," no age where they magically learn to tell wrong from right, and to separate fantasy from reality. That some kids might even be more inherently drawn to violence than others, and that parents need to know their children and be able to identify what they know and what they can handle...

      Sorry. I don't buy it. I demand you give me a list of ages and what's appropriate, universally. Also, if you have any pills that will make kids sit down and shut up and get smarter, I'd appreciate it.
      • Lego Star Wars is also a spouse-friendly game. My wife loves it because, after I beat the levels, she can go around and collect every goddamn stud in the level. I wouldn't mind except she insists we play together, and waiting for someone to check every single place for studs is crazy-making.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        It's a given that he has played violent video games when he was a kid, and yet he feels that if he lets his kids play them, they are somehow "not having a childhood".
        Perhaps, to play devil's advocate, he learned from his mistakes: sitting for hours at a time on his ass, interacting with imaginary people, is no way to live his life. Actually, he probably didn't. He's on /.
      • Half the problem... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Belial6 (794905) on Monday April 09 2007, @11:02AM (#18664083) Homepage
        Half the problem is this insane idea that being an adult at 13 is an "early grownup". For a 100,000 years, humans have reached adulthood at ~13. They have raised children, fought wars and ran nations. Somehow over the last 3 or 4 generations, the entire human populations seems to have become retarded. It seems that it now take 50% longer for a human to reach maturity. It looks like we need more studies on just what kind of damage DDT did on our population, because if it takes 18-21 years for current humans to reach adulthood, SOMETHING went seriously wrong.

        I don't know about the rest of society, but my genetic code has not degraded to that point. While I have certainly learned many things since I was 13, the only thing that prevented me from living as an adult at 13 was the artificial legal system that criminalized my age. I'm not saying that it wasn't great living for 6 years as an adult who had no responsibilities. I'm just saying that at 13 I was an adult, irrelevant to what the law said.
        • by Garse Janacek (554329) on Monday April 09 2007, @01:40PM (#18666309)

          For a 100,000 years, humans have reached adulthood at ~13. They have raised children, fought wars and ran nations. ... if it takes 18-21 years for current humans to reach adulthood, SOMETHING went seriously wrong.

          For 100,000 years, most people have been unable to read or write, and "adulthood" essentially implied that they knew a single trade well (generally whatever their parents did) and/or could kill wild animals, and could more or less keep their family from dying -- and not much more. There is a problem today in that the expectations on children can become too lax, but your implication that something is "seriously wrong" with someone who "takes 18 years" to reach adulthood in our society is ridiculous -- we expect much more of adults now, and it is reasonable to do so. We are not (typically, in the western world, at least not in those segments of the population likely to be posting on slashdot) so close to mere survival that the physical abilities of a 13-year-old boy will make a life-or-death difference for most families, or that a 13-year-old girl should start churning out babies just to ensure the survival of the species.

          If you want to say we should teach our children responsibility at an earlier age, great, I agree that's something we should work on. But saying they should be "adults" at 13 just because that's what it has been like for much of history is kind of throwing out the legitimate and positive changes that have been made since then. I'm not into the philosophy that says the future is always better than the past, but the very fact that we're having this conversation from physically separated locations without even knowing each other should suggest that there are some useful aspects to recent changes...

  • by Mr EdgEy (983285) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:27AM (#18661243)
    As humans we are not perfect, it's like telling your kids to buckle down in school knowing full well you never did all the time.
    • by XxtraLarGe (551297) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:45AM (#18661703) Journal

      As humans we are not perfect, it's like telling your kids to buckle down in school knowing full well you never did all the time.
      Is it being hypocritical, or is it passing on knowledge? I used to binge drink on the weekends when I was in high school, but I seldom ever drink any more. It hurt me in school, sports and life in general. Just because I did stupid thing when I was younger doesn't mean that I should be afraid to tell my kids "Don't do stupid things." If that's being a hypocrite, then I'm all for it.
    • I disagree about that being hypocritical, as long as you make it clear that it's a "learn from my mistakes" thing. I never put much effort in to school and graduated barely holding on to a 3.0 GPA, but of course the end result of that is I have some fairly chunky college loans to pay back. My brother on the other hand maintained nearly straight As and is getting ready to go off to the same school but with a full ride.

      When/if I have kids, I'll be able to point out this situation and show them why they should work harder and not do what I did. Same thing with drinking and drugs. I'm not going to say "go nuts", but I'm also not going to give my kids the DARE version because I've been there, done that, and know better.
  • by lukas84 (912874) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:27AM (#18661245) Homepage
    The world is a big and scary place. And children need to learn that too, and fast.

    There's nothing worse than isolating children from reality, because it will start hitting them in the face one day or another. Let them watch the news, play video games, etc. It can't hurt.

    When they go to school they'll need to learn the rules anyway, in order to survive (not literally, of course).

    The world is full of sick, twisted, demented elements. Video games, and also the internet are a very safe approach - because you can't be harmed. Chatrooms can help children to spot lies - and this is always a helpful skill out there.

    Sheltering kids has never helped them.
    • by midnighttoadstool (703941) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:39AM (#18661323)
      "Sheltering kids has never helped them."

      ...and where does that bit of dogma come from?

      The opposite is much more likely true : the nature of childhood is to be sheltered. Just as animals shelter their offspring until they are capable of coping with it without being immediately eaten.

      Further: the young have a strong 'copy' instinct, which is how they seem to learn the basics. Putting the 'real world' in front of them before they have reached the age of autonomy is asking for trouble.

      The "expose them to the real-world dogma" is all nice and progressive and seemingly commonsense, but it is almost certainly unnatural. And anything that is unnatural, like margarine, is bad news, I reckon. (BTW, I am not arguing against the 'artificial', which is a distinct idea from that which is 'unnatural').

        • by midnighttoadstool (703941) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:45AM (#18661707)
          "Children have to learn that moral values that are thought to them by school and by religion are not absolute."

          Is that an absolute? Do you believe in absolutes, like the religious do? You are being dogmatic, after all.

          "A lot of things we humans do are very, very unnatural. Like social welfare. That doesn't mean it's wrong."

          You are presuming that it isn't wrong, but I reckon the opposite. Instead of looking after each other, as we did in the past, and having meaning in our lives through that, the State has rendered our lives almost purposeless. And so we just play video games all day, and watch TV. In the past we would have looked after our parents until they died. We wouldn't have called them a burden. Now, because of our social welfare mentality, we shove them in to tombs for the living. And that is just a small example of one of the many distortions that social welfare has caused.

          Ironically a group of people who have a strong reason to want such an unnatural thing as 'social welfare' are the selfish and unloving.

    • by grumbel (592662) <grumbel@gmx.de> on Monday April 09 2007, @06:43AM (#18661345) Homepage

      There's nothing worse than isolating children from reality, because it will start hitting them in the face one day or another. Let them watch the news, play video games, etc. It can't hurt.

      I agree that you shouldn't isolate them to much from reality, but neither news or video games are reality. News compress the bad things of the world into tiny 15min action shows, what might be shown might be real to some degree, but its shown totally out of proportion. Planes might crash once a week, but thousands of them also land perfectly safely, news however doesn't show that, same with all the other bad stuff that happens. I wouldn't let my child watch news for quite a while, since there is really nothing you can learn from it when you don't even have a basic understanding of how the world works.

      Now with video games things are even more extreme, they have absolutely no connection with reality, they might get inspiration from reality, but you next random WWII shooter isn't like fighting in WWII and GTA doesn't show the normal live on the street either. Now to some degree this is of course good, since well, its all fake and thus you can enjoy it without feeling all that bad, but on the other side I would prefer my child to learn facts about war from a good history book, not from a video game.

  • Why can't we continue to play hand-eye coordination improving games? I've played pinball and hung around arcades for over 30 years. When the fight 'em kick 'em punch 'em games came in, the arcade became a ghost town.

    I can understand that pinball machines, being electro-mechanical, are expensive to run. These days you might only see one or two in an arcade. But where have the simple but good video games gone? Oh, that's right, they have become violent.

    It is not about censoring out violence -- our society has already done that, with kindergarten kids getting expelled if they use the f word twice (our son used it once, so we are flying without a safety net). It is about having some class -- Sin City is not a good movie, and Doom ain't interesting. Sorry to burst your bubble, script kiddies.

    P.S. Sierra's 3D Ultra Pinball Thrillride is proof that you can make a superb video pinball game. Sadly it is discontinued. Luckily it is still available via Amazon, etc. for about $10.
    • It doesn't follow... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Elemenope (905108) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:20AM (#18661525)

      ...that just because you abhor violence, sex, etc., in your media that 'Sin City', 'Doom' et al. are not good. It simply means they are uninteresting to you. It has nothing to do with class, and everything to do with age-appropriateness. Sin City and Doom are bad movies/games to be showing a kindergartener. Beyond that, you are just being snobby. (P.S. I'm pretty sure the arcade became a ghost town not because of violence, but because kids all of a sudden had access to games of similar quality right at their house or their friends' houses, with video game consoles and serious video-capable PCs).

      There are, and always have been fun, interesting games that had no element of violence in them. Pinball is a good example (interestingly, Centipede is not, unless we don't care so long as it's violence against things not human, in which case you shouldn't care about Doom either). So was Myst (a personal fav). But there is no magical exclusionary rule that says if there are elements of violence, sex, and profanity a game is automatically bad and/or boring. The Longest Journey was a great game, but was full of profanity and had a good bit of the other two. Half-life and its sequel were both groundbreaking and engaging story-wise, but chock full of violence. Sin City was a fantastic movie, if for nothing else the artistic direction that was taken, but also the stories are quite gripping (and also inherently moral in dramatistic ways; you know, the same way Shakespeare's plays were morally tinged even though they were chock full of violence, sex, and profanity...).

      Besides, all the good ol' games you seem bent on being nostalgic about are available in Flash or Java on the net somewhere or other. So, it's not like these options are forever lost to a parent trying to entertain a child age-appropriately.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Sorry, I remember debates over whether Demon Attack [wikipedia.org] for the Atari 2600 was too violent a game for kids ("You can shoot realistic birds!") How about Death Race 2000? Night Trap? Custer's Revenge? As with any other medium, video games have had their share of the lurid throughout their existence.

      The arcade became a ghost town because the Super Nintendo eliminated the disparity between the arcade and the home, with the exception of games that either used elaborate props (pinball, sit-down racing games, rail

  • ...because they'll probably whup my ass.


    Seriously, I've been taunted by too many 10-year-old's in LAN cafés, I don't want to have one in my friggin' house 24/7.

  • Hmm (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kitsunewarlock (971818) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:43AM (#18661341) Journal
    To quote my Japanese friend on the subject of Anime censorship:

    "Why censor children's [media]; kids have violent! Honestly, a child will see more blood spilled than most people in their adult years outside of war and medicine. Children are naturally violent creatures."

    Note: not exact quote.
  • Realism (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:51AM (#18661377)

    I suspect it's a matter of degrees of realism. There is a big difference between playing Doom, where you're shooting at bad guys who are fireball-throwing aliens, and playing recent GTA-style games that glamorise killing civilians in a realistic setting.

    I don't like censorship as a general principle, but I have no problem with restricting what people are exposed to until they're grown up enough to understand what is real and what is pretend. This is probably where I would draw my line, if I had kids old enough for it to matter.

    For what it's worth, I don't think the best games tend to be the photorealistic people-maiming types anyway. They can be entertaining for a while and have pretty pictures, but they tend to lack the depth of things like puzzle games, RTS or RPG titles. The only time they really have long-term value is when played in a co-operative environment with other real humans, and that changes the atmosphere fundamentally anyway.

  • by Seraphnote (655201) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:55AM (#18661389)
    You get to be an innocent child ONCE!

    Unfortunately too many adults take this opportunity away from their children by exposing them to the violence and stupidities of humanity WAY TOO EARLY. Yes the violence and stupidity of humanity is real, and out there in the world, and it always has been...

    What's the damn rush to expose children to it?

    (And I'm still pissed off at the idiot parents who brought their toddler to the Planet of the Apes remake at 10:00 pm.)
    • Define "innocent."

      Like a lot of the posters here, I grew up in an age when violence in video games consisted of pixelated blobs doing horrible things to other pixelated blobs, so I can't really speak to the effect (or, I suspect, lack of effect) of modern video games on tender young minds. But I loved books and movies that explored some of the worst things humanity is capable of (still do, as a matter of fact.) My parents, bless 'em, never tried to shield me from this stuff. If I had a problem with some of the things I learned about, we talked about it. It probably wasn't easy for them, explaining things like genocide and serial killers to a nine-year-old ... but you know, raising a kid isn't supposed to be easy.

      Was my "innocence" ruined? Did I grow up scarred, warped, lacking in moral sensibility? Hell no. I grew up understanding that there are some very bad people in the world, who do some very bad things, and that good people have both the opportunity and the obligation to ameliorate some of the damage. Which is, I think, a pretty "innocent" atttitude to carry into adulthood. Because innocence is not the same thing as ignorance.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      It's more of a question of when do you let the innocence go by the wayside. Sure, when they're young it's your obligation to protect your children from certain aspects of life but at what point do you stop grabbing their hands and let them find out on their own the "the fire burns" after you've just told them for the millionth time?

      Being over protective is a sad state where, as a parent, you did your job but you also did some harm when a young adult who should be able to stand up to some of life's challeng
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      WAY TOO EARLy. My ass.

      This is the first, last and only time in history where such a made-up thing as innocence has even been available for children. Get over it. Kids are going to see violence and do violence no matter what. They're going to bang at twelve, smoke pot at thirteen and get drunk at fourteen. And there's nothing anyone can do about it (no matter what you think), so we should accept it, attempt to mitigate any negatives, and move on with our lives.
  • Duh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Legion303 (97901) on Monday April 09 2007, @06:58AM (#18661403) Homepage
    "How old is 'old enough' to start fragging?"

    When they're mature enough to handle it with the realization that it's not real life.

    What, you expected a number? Sucker.
  • Hmm... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Dogtanian (588974) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:03AM (#18661417) Homepage
    "Gamers are getting older"? That's not news, time runs forwards. It'd be more surprising if gamers were getting younger, and I'm damned if I want to go through puberty again.... backwards.
  • by Prototerm (762512) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:04AM (#18661425)
    I've been a gamer since the days of the original Wolfenstein 3D, and when I had a son, I decided to use the video games in my collection to teach him a few things: like the consequences of your actions, thinking through problems, and *not* killing civilians indiscriminately. I chose games that had a definite right and wrong about them (and yeah, I'm of that generation that believes World War Two was about right and wrong, so a few of those titles were in there), or about thinking (the original Deus Ex, for example).

    Unfortunately, my son quickly learned that there were cheat codes out there, so a lot of my hopes at a learning experience went out the window.

    There are some games I keep away from him, such as the Carmageddon and Grand Theft series, along with the ever-popular Postal series.

    Every step of the way, I know what he's playing, and we talk about it. We don't play against each other because the one time we did he kicked my butt. But otherwise, we're on the same wavelength. We generally play the same games, and talk the same language about them, even though he's 40 years younger than I am.

    Games are no more violent than television, and in one way, they're less violent, because when playing a game, the kid is at least in some control. The parent just has to pick the games, and stay involved with the kids. Neither computers nor televisions are baby sitters, and parents who use them as such get the ba****ds they deserve.

    But I'm still not gonna let him play Postal -- not until he reaches 65. There have to be *some* limits, you know!
  • by netbuzz (955038) on Monday April 09 2007, @07:35AM (#18661615) Homepage
    I particularly liked the "Lego Rule." ... Also, I have "this friend" who's about to turn 50, has never played a video game in his life, and has three young children who are soon to graduate from noggin.com to the real thing. I'm not, I mean he's not, going to be one of those anything-goes guys. Any advice for this type?

    http://www.networkworld.com/community/?q=node/1360 4 [networkworld.com]
       
  • by BenEnglishAtHome (449670) * on Monday April 09 2007, @07:39AM (#18661655)
    That's not a troll, really. The most obvious and ageless example is sex. We did as much as we could as soon as we could get away with it. Now, as hypocrytical, older parents, we can't stand the concept of our precious little darlings doing the nasty at ... well ... whatever age it was that we first wanted to. (Actual age citation omitted so that I don't draw too much negative response. God knows that the ages of kids getting naked and freaky on their webcams is sufficiently low that it may never be mentioned in polite company; adults just don't want to hear about that stuff.)

    It's the same for alcohol. We got drunk on our ass at 16, most of us got away with it, and we think we were *special* and could handle it. Our kids? Those morons couldn't handle a sip of ceremonial wine before they turn 21.

    Video games. Driving fast. Ditching school. Going out in the woods with some dynamite and blowing shit up. (OK, that last one was pretty personal, I guess.) No matter the subject, we simply don't think our kids can do the things we did. We're hypocrites. All parents are and always have been.

    Adults have no respect for children so we treat them differently than we still think we should have been treated when we were their age.

    Hypocrisy and lack of respect from parents towards children? This is news? Is this surprising to anyone?
    • As a parent of two, I can tell you I'm not worried about my kid having a sip of ceremonial wine before 21. And, frankly, I don't care if they get "naked and freaky on their webcams." Here's what I'm worried about:

      1. my kids dying or getting maimed in a car accident with or without involvement of alcohol.
      2. my kids getting an STD.
      3. my kids getting addicted to tobacco.
      4. my kids getting addicted to any other drug, including alcohol.
      5. my kids getting pregnant before they're ready to take care of a child.

      All of those things happened to kids I at the high school I attended during the 1970's. Call it hypocrisy if you like, but I think it's called learning from experience and trying to pass the benefit of that experience down through the generations. When we do this with science, it's generally recognized as a good thing.

      The time passed, usually 10 or 20 years and the fact that the parents usually aren't currently engaged in the risky behaviors they once were and now want to prevent their children from engaging in mitigates, in my mind, the hypocrisy of it all.

      On the other side of it, I've seen parents "teach" their kids how to "hold their likker" and that's uglier than the hypocrisy.

      As for violent video games, I try to get my kids to play them, but they just want to play fluffy happy games like Sim City. It drives me nuts.
  • Boys will be boys (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Wansu (846) on Monday April 09 2007, @10:33AM (#18663653)


    I was born in the late 50s and grew up in the 60s. There were no computers. TV was black and white. My class was probably the last to be taught to use slide rules in high school.

    We played outside. During the peak of the baby boom, there were lots of kids to play with. We'd round up 10 or 12, split up and line up on either side of a creek. We'd throw dirt clods, shoot bottle rockets, throw firecrackers and shoot BB guns (the old, whimpy kind) at each other. One parent gave us shop goggles and several of us carried trash can lids as shields. We escalated to Whamo Wrist Rocket slingshots, homemade catapults, sky rockets and roman candles. We'd play all day. When I'd get home, I was so dirty, my mother made me strip on the screened back porch and make a beeline to the tub. Sometimes people got hurt. I got hurt several times. It never stopped me. What we were doing was basically poor man's paintball.

    When we got older, we entertained ourselves with vandalism, model rocketry, homemade explosives and other adventures. Yessir. If a boy does that nowadays, he'll get a cavity search.

    I suppose if we'd had Doom and Quake we'd have played those games. But damn if it ain't fun to throw dirt clods.

    As for these kids going on shooting rampages, it just didn't happen back then. The reason was no kid ever got that far out of line. If you acted up, you got your ass beat. The punishment was swift and sure. Today I see kids testing and pushing the limits of what they can get by with. Back then, you didn't have to push very far before you got your ass beat. If we'd continued corporal punishment in the schoiols, Columbine and all the other shootings probably wouldn't have happened because we'd have taken care of little problems before they became big problems.

  • my kids (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Some_Llama (763766) on Monday April 09 2007, @01:39PM (#18666285) Homepage Journal
    I have 3 kids, aged 15/12/10. The oldest isn't really into Video games, but the 2 youngest are, I let them play every game that I play (CS, Diablo2, GTA3, Quake3/4, warcraft, etc) and i always have.

    Some things I have noticed:

    They know the difference between games and real life, the routinely gib people in Quake, headshot people in CS, wipe out creeps in WC3 (when we all play together), but in school they get good grades and their teachers love them (no behavior problems), I know this because my wife works in the same school they attend and is privy to all of the lunch room commentary by their teachers.

    When they play these games their mindsets and preferences are mirrored in the game, not the other way around. This is the biggest point I can make.. games are a way for them to express themselves, I don't see any "conditioning" that should be prevalent if you are to believe video game alarmists (E.G. Jack Thompson)

    E.G. My second youngest (girl) likes to drive around GTA3 in a firetruck or ambulence doing the side missions helping people.. she doesn't gun people down/kill hookers/ etc.. in fact she berates me for not obeying the speed limit when I play.

      When playing CS she likes the surf maps (where you glide around a map in a race type setting) and barely (if at all) tries to shoot anyone or fight in general. Same for Warcraft, she likes the maps where you build towns or can generate unlimited creeps and walk them around the map (no objective). In real life she loves animals, being social, and helping people...

    With my son he likes to play games (CS/quake) with other people and make friendships in game, leaves if the competition is too tough and avoids conflict, and tries to help people who don't know how to do X in a game. He is the same way when playing with kids on the play ground at school.

    I have never seen an increase in violent tendencies in their interactions with each other or other kids (like the neighbors, at school etc...) as a result of playing these games.

    So there ya go.. btw, I have been playing video games since Doom first came out, so they have been around these games for ALL of their lives, if there was some kind of influence you would expect it to be manifested in some visable way?

    I might be biased so I offer this as well, my wife doesn't play any games at all but shes their behavior constantly every day, she doesn't have any problems with them playing these games nor has she seen any changes in their behavior due to their playing them more often.
        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          Usually it's something like doing drugs or premarital sex.

          Believe me, I've learned from my mistakes for both drugs and premarital sex.

          I should've done a lot more of both.

          Eh. You live and you learn.