Can Web Apps Ever Truly Replace Desktop Apps?

tooger writes "Matt Hartley from MadPenguin.org opines that web apps can never replace desktop applications, for a variety of reasons. He writes, 'Some of you may point out that the data stored on your hard drive is not of any real consequence, but I would disagree. It is more than probable that a skilled, disgruntled employee of the company you trust with your data could ... sell off your personal information.' Given the real danger of privacy concerns, identity theft, and uptime, will web-based applications ever truly replace locally hosted software?"

a more appropriate question:

[yagu (721525)]

A more appropriate question might be, "What is the extent to which Web apps will be effective, and accepted?".

Many desktop applications are of that ilk solely from the era of their birth. There isn't always a compelling reason an application needs to run on a desktop, and Web offers another and slightly different alternative. And as for some of Web apps shortcomings pointed out by the author, they're mostly nits, things that will be solved soon, or already solved.

I for one find Google applications (spreadsheet, word processor) perfectly good replacements for my more modest needs day to day. They come close, at this very immature stage in their life cycles, to being able to completely replace my need for desktop instantiations. I would guess the average lay-person would fall more neatly into this demographic -- the average computer user could save lots of dollars by getting comfortable with the scaled back versions of stuff they paid big money for but never tapped the deep and myriad powers from.

There probably always will be a place and reason for desktop applications: data security, data privacy, contracts, speed, availability, etc., but Web offers another approach and an increasingly viable approach to replacing applications we all once thought of as "desktop".

As a developer, it's changed my way of thinking when it comes to creating and designing new products. It isn't a hard transition, and it offers some interesting new ways to make magic for my clients (mashups, etc.).

The article describes "lack of sync" options with Google apps. Yawn. I've written my own for now, I agree it's a bit of a nuisance. Does anybody think for a moment these gaps aren't going to be filled soon?

In my opinion

[catmandi (995992)]

Personally I would identify data security as the major problem with web applications. Features, speed and availability will all improve as bandwidth becomes less of an issue - and privacy is something that could arguably be easier to control in what is essentially a thin client application. However, integrity and the (current) lack of guarantees regarding backups and recovery are the real stumbling block. If this can be overcome (and it's only going to happen when people are willing to pay for these services) then I don't see why web applications shouldn't become as popular as desktop environments.

webapps can be more secure than desktops.

[aoteoroa (596031)]

Our small manufacturing company uses desktop applications extensively, and they are a major security problem.

Sales people have quit and brought valuable proprietary information to our competitors. Giving our competitors information we worked hard (and spent a fair amount of money) to obtain.

Webapps can be secure. Your bank trusts them.

With a webapp I can guarantee that everybody has a current version of the program, that everybody is working from the most recent price lists, people can access information anywhere in the world at anytime. And when they quit they are cut off instantly. I don't have to knock on their door asking for the company laptop.

Re:

[jimicus (737525)]

Webapps can be secure. Your bank trusts them.

Yep. Provided it's your bank who's managing the webapp.

Like everything in IT, it's a tradeoff.

Are we prepared to tradeoff the risk inherent in storing our data on someone else's system (what happens if they go bankrupt? how can we be sure their systems are reliable and secure?) against the work involved in running our own (how do we upgrade everything? are we prepared to spend several weeks preparing for and rolling out an application rather than just paying

Re:

[MightyMartian (840721)]

The major advantage of web apps is distribution. With browsers adhering more closely to the standards, the difficulties involved in making cross-browser apps is less difficult, and makes distributing such apps far cheaper and easier than desktop apps.

That being said, I think we're a long way off from having browser apps that can really compete with their desktop equivalents. Even a highly usable site like GMail still is awkward and clumsy compared to your average mail client. Google Docs is interesting,

Re:a more appropriate question:

[MBGMorden (803437)]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with distribution.

As a user, and in my personal life, I HATE web based apps. I avoid them like the plague. They take my data out of my hands, often have an advertisement thrown in somewhere, require an active net connection at all times, and first and foremost they simply don't feel as responsive as a desktop application. There's also a lack of consistency. For example, for my online banking I'm pretty much forced to use the web apps that the banks use (no desktop equivalent available). I have accounts with 4 different banks. All of them have basically the same functions, but I have to learn 4 different web apps to use them. If they had a standard protocol that could tie back to a desktop app it would alleviate that problem.

On the other hand, working in IT, I love deploying and managing them. There are no software installs to perform and keep updated on lots of desktops. There are no worries about users storing important info on their local machines (even if told to store on their desktops). Also, with the progression towards these I make switching our organization over to a non-Microsoft OS on the desktop more and more possible. The more stuff that runs in the browser the less I have to worry about which OS is on the computers. And truth be told, when I'm work work, I don't really mind the problems mentioned above, because it's WORK. I don't expect my programs and computer at work to be as laid back and streamlined/comfortable as what I want at home, in the same way that I don't mind sitting in an office chair all day long but when I go home I'd toss the thing out the nearest window and get a recliner :).

That being said, the issue of data security is still an extreme concern: even when our users use a web/browser based app, it still better be running off of one of OUR servers in on OUR site.

I think that such apps will increase greatly in the corporate/government world, but that home applications will still be largely desktop in nature.

Re:

[PopeRatzo (965947)]

I've already replaced Microsoft Office with web apps. When I bought a new computer, that came with MS Vista, once I got so frustrated that I had to replace Vista with my trusty XP Pro SP2, I decided I was also going to forgo all the benefits of Microsoft Office and use only Google Docs. I teach at a University and I haven't regretted my decision once. If I want to have the files saved locally I can easily do that and everything is compatible with the Office files people send me. I don't use Powerpoint, s

Re:

[nine-times (778537)]

The article describes "lack of sync" options with Google apps. Yawn. I've written my own for now, I agree it's a bit of a nuisance. Does anybody think for a moment these gaps aren't going to be filled soon?

If you've written your own, maybe you want to open the source code to everyone else? These gaps might be filled soon, but they aren't filled yet. Besides, the problem isn't just "syncing", but rather a lack of consistency.

If I'm working on a Word document, I can upload that to Google, and I'll probab

Re:

[deuterium (96874)]

What's not clear to me, however, is whether a traditional web browser is the appropriate solution for this. It may be that, rather than making "web applications", we need a different framework that allows the sort of flexibility that web apps allow but with the consistency of desktop apps. Maybe a web browser should go back to reading static HTML and a new sort of generic remote application framework needs to be developed-- but who the hell is going to do that?

I'm with you here. The browser does certain thi

Re:

[MightyYar (622222)]

Thank you... why does everything have to be so... binary? Would anyone really expect web apps to completely supplant desktop apps? Putting aside obvious niche markets like publishing or financial reporting, they certainly will for certain applications... for instance, my former department used to use Word's clumsy collaboration features to edit a common "weekly update" document for management. Now they use Google Docs. On the other hand, no one in their right mind would depend on Google Docs if their networ

Re:a more appropriate question:

[dreamchaser (49529)]

There isn't always a compelling reason an application needs to run on a desktop

There are even fewer compelling reasons to run most applications via the web though. Frankly, I think web based apps are more at home on the Intranet than the Internet. The data security will *never* be quite good enough for me to trust any even remotely sensitive data to a Data Center not under the control of my organization, be it family or corporation.

Who wrote this, a software developer?

[drinkypoo (153816)]

If most people will trust Microsoft with their personal data, why shouldn't they trust some random company out there on the web someplace? Microsoft has already proven themselves to be untrustworthy (spyware, insecurity.)

If over 50% of the world's PCs are compromised, then most people's data is already vulnerable, on their own PC.

I call FUD.

Doesn't seem to matter where it's stored

[dreddnott (555950)]

Given the prevalence of behavior-logging spyware on most end-consumer computers, I'm not sure if the average person's data would be more secure on their own PC, or even their work PC. Of course it's nice to feel that you're responsible for your own data, and it's sitting there safe on your hard drive, but Microsoft is Microsoft, rootkits are rootkits, and Chinese hackers are Chinese hackers.

Re:Doesn't seem to matter where it's stored

[Lockejaw (955650)]

Never mind security. If it's stored locally, I can always get at it and do what I want with it, even if I'm away from my desk and my WLAN. When I'm not at home, I can only hope that there's accessible wifi (and not one of those subscription-based hotspots).

Re:

[maxwell demon (590494)]

Never mind security. If it's stored locally, I can always get at it and do what I want with it, even if I'm away from my desk and my WLAN. When I'm not at home, I can only hope that there's accessible wifi (and not one of those subscription-based hotspots).

Of course the same argument can be used the other way round: With locally installed apps, when you are not around your computer, you have no chance to get to your documents. With web apps, all you need is any computer with Internet access. It may be yours, it may be that of your friend, or it might even be a computer in an internet cafe on the other side of the world (assuming you don't worry about the security risk). It won't matter if that computer is running Windows, Linux, MacOS or even something very

Re:

[Bluesman (104513)]

But only if you have access to electricity!

There will come a time when network access will be as ubiquitous. I'm assuming that people will find this sufficient, much as they take the availability of electricity for granted.

The only problem for web apps is latency. Even with today's bandwidth, the compressed X protocol works just fine for the vast majority of applications, but the latency is the killer.

My prediction is that unless we find a way to communicate at faster than the speed of light, network late

Re:

[COMON$ (806135)]

'Some of you may point out that the data stored on your hard drive is not of any real consequence, but I would disagree. It is more than probable that a skilled, disgruntled employee of the company you trust with your data could ... sell off your personal information.' Given the real danger of privacy concerns, identity theft, and uptime, will web-based applications ever truly replace locally hosted software?

What does this have to do with online web apps? I don't know about you guys out there but on the

Rich Clients

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

People keep forgetting that in a corporate setting, you'll want to run your own Web Services service. While GMail for companies may make a lot of sense for the little guys, the big guys are only going to do it if they can control it internally. That takes the privacy and security concerns down to almost zero.

Re:

[morgan_greywolf (835522)]

People keep forgetting that in a corporate setting, you'll want to run your own Web Services service. While GMail for companies may make a lot of sense for the little guys, the big guys are only going to do it if they can control it internally. That takes the privacy and security concerns down to almost zero.

Yeah, you're right. No big companies will run will be running any Gmail or Google Apps at all. No one like Proctor & Gamble, L'Oreal, GE or Prudential [google.com]. Nope.

Re:

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

They don't tell you the details of the transaction. I've been party to enough of these deals to know that either Proctor and Gamble is requesting special conditions (e.g. host it themselves -OR- have secure access to the backend -OR- Google has to do a whole bunch of security audits to be certified), or they're only using it in a trial group somewhere in the dark corners of the company. The press releases always make these things seem more impressive than they really are.

Alternative..

[zyl0x (987342)]

What if the same web-based-application architecture was applied to a corporation's intranet? This way you could host all your employees' applications in one location, as well as handle backup operations more easily.

I feel as though these "web" based applications have more than just Internet usage.

I can't see myself switching anytime soon.

[Robot Randy (982296)]

I'd hate to have to go wardriving just to be able to open a word processing document on my laptop.

Supplements

[yurnotsoeviltwin (891389)]

I agree, for a variety of reasons. For one, there's security, but for me the biggest problem with web-based apps is that they don't go everywhere my computer does. When I'm at my friend's beach house, there's no internet connection. What am I supposed to do if I need to finish up a paper or something like that? Web based apps are great because of their portability in other ways (I can access them from any computer) but personally, I will never use them exclusively. Anything saved on the web will always

pfft

[igotmybfg (525391)]

"could sell off your personal information."

Sorry to disappoint you, but people don't even want my personal information when I offer it to them (that chick at the bar) for free!

no

[lashi (822466)]

no, just like TV never truly replace radio. They will just diverge and serve different functions in the long run.

Yes.

[headkase (533448)]

Of course they can. All you need is the bandwidth which most people have (VPN anyone?). And you don't need to use a web-browser either, the app could be a hybrid where a client plugs into a server and works from there. So things that web-browsers have trouble with (like updating drop-down list boxes with new items) could be handled indistinguishably from a local application. Basically you could write a custom client that connects to an appropriate web-based server and through your own custom protocol ha

foolish proposition anyway

[Lazerf4rt (969888)]

We are seeing more and more articles appearing with the claim that everything we really need from an OS is available online.

That's because those articles are online, and the people who write online articles love being online.

You ask the guy without an Internet connection, or with a 56K whether he thinks web apps will replace desktop apps and he'd be all like "WTF?" Keep in mind that some huge fraction of Americans never intend to get an Internet connection. Don't just dismiss that many people as idiots, either.

And how would you like it if your C++ compiler or GIMP or Photoshop or 3D Studio Max was a web application? Has anybody thought it through? It's not even a matter of security, just plain utility.

Not for those people without highspeed connections

[fantomas (94850)]

Lots of people don't have cheap, always on, high speed connections. So I don't think they will be interested. Maybe the big players pushing web applications will be the best thing that's ever happened to encourage take up of open source software. Huge numbers of people round the world with poorer quality connections will be up for trying out open source versions of popular cornerstone tools if the big players all move to a web only model...

Yes, if...

[Catiline (186878)]

When the day comes that I can burn my secure data files to a DVD with a web app and not need to take my tinfoil hat off first...

then and only then might web apps replace desktop ones completely.

Old question, and the answer hasn't changed.

[paeanblack (191171)]

The calculus is pretty straightforward...which one of the following is more costly?

1) Inability to work without a reliable connection.
2) Dealing with the risk of theft, drive crash, maintenance of backups at the user level, etc.

It's also an old question. Just because we are using browsers instead of X terminals doesn't make much difference. The answer to which was better was and will remain, "it depends". Different strokes for different folks.

Photoshop Replacement

[acm (107375)]

I've always used Photoshop and photo editing as an example of a class of applications that would never make sence to be replaced with a web equivalent. Then someone showed me Snipshot [snipshot.com]. Check it out, it is pretty intersting. Although it only does very basic photo editing right now, I could see where, in the future, it could support most (all?) the features of Photoshop.

So now I don't know. Besides the security of having all your data on your own hard drive, I'm not sure I have a compelling technical reason to argue that virtually all applications couldn't eventually be ran through the web browser.

pfft.. check out your own citation online

[way2trivial (601132)]

http://news.com.com/Adobe+to+take+Photoshop+online /2100-7345_3-6163015.html [com.com]
"Hoping to get a jump on Google and other competitors, Adobe Systems plans to release a hosted version of its popular Photoshop image-editing application within six months, the company's chief executive said Tuesday.

"

Re:Photoshop Replacement

[MasterC (70492)]

Then someone showed me Snipshot. Check it out, it is pretty intersting. Although it only does very basic photo editing right now, I could see where, in the future, it could support most (all?) the features of Photoshop.

Interesting: yes. I will grant it that but that's about all I'll give it. Let me know when it can zoom and edit pixels with the speed of MS Paint (let alone Photoshop or GIMP) then we can label Snipshot a real photo editor. Until then, it's a "photo tweaker" in my book.

The problem with Snipshot is that it will never attain the performance of a desktop app is because it's instructing the server to do all the work and any visual updates require sending another image back to the client after the server has performed them. The browser does zero actual work; it's the only way it can be done within the HTML/JS confines.

It will be the same issue as with video or audio but worse because both are more bandwidth intensive.

My primary complaint about any web app is speed/performance (and I'm not a performance freak, just impatient). The operations Snipshot is performing are trivial and they take a helluva lot longer than GIMP could do them in. Gmail can be dreadfully, painfully slow and is tolerable because I want the convenience.

If my prediction/opinion matters: the end result will be a hybrid with shared data. Sometimes, I just need that raw GIMP power to get crap done. Sometimes, I might be stuck on someone else's computer and not have GIMP and the handful of functions Snipshot can do may be sufficient. The marriage of desktop and web will be when I can tote those images to either app that I need them in at the time I need it. Ditto for email. I want gmail and thunderbird to sync. I want google calendar to sync with my phone and kontact. I want picasaweb to sync with kuickshow/gwenview/ee/name-your-slideshow-desktop- app.

The endgame is proper sharing of data to the app suited for the use. (Psst, just like everything else in life!) No one paradigm will "win" for every application and problem.

Logically, no

[Weaselmancer (533834)]

...will web-based applications ever truly replace locally hosted software?

No, because without some locally hosted software, you can't get to the web site all your other stuff would be on anyways.

That being said, still no. My cablemodem is fast, but I doubt it's as fast as the SATA cable between my application and the file it's trying to load.

Currently, net performance is orders of magnitude slower than local cabling (for most of us, anyways. You guys on Internet2 can ignore me.) But as soon as tho

Maybe

[HomelessInLaJolla (1026842)]

While users on Slashdot can cover all bases of opinions the bottom line will be profit and acquiesance. Web apps will slowly replace desktop apps so long as desktop apps fail to turn the same profit that web apps and subscription services can. To some extent we can figure in the level to which users acquiesce to the transfer but the fact simply is that there are larger entities than end users calling the shots on this one. It's like pushing a bill through Congress: if at first they don't succeed they'll

There are really two questions ...

[richg74 (650636)]

Given the real danger of privacy concerns, identity theft, and uptime, will web-based applications ever truly replace locally hosted software?

There are two different issues being conflated here:

• Can an application system, in which most of the processing and data storage is done on a central host, using a Web browser as the user interface, replace conventional desktop PC applications?
• If so, will organizations and users be willing to have the hosting done by an external provider?

I would say that the answer to the first question is very probably "yes". After all, people used mainframe applications successfully for many years ; some still do. We have routinely run workstation networks with "dataless" clients (think a Unix/Linux box with only the OS, X, and swap on the local disk) precisely because we could control security and reliability more effectively. (Possibly, some users will bitch, because they want to control "their" data. If the data, as it usually does, belongs to the firm, I will punch their sympathy ticket, but otherwise -- tough.)

On the other hand, I would be wary of entrusting all my data storage and/or processing to an external provider. That raises all the same sorts of questions that any outsourcing deal does.

Can good articles ever replace crappy articles?

[sootman (158191)]

First of all, Mr. MadPenguin.Org, why the fuck do you put big bold links to unrelated stories RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of your little rant? Those look like section headings. I was confused the whole time I was reading the article. Since they weren't underlined--like the link that appears in the article is--I didn't know they were links until I moused over them. I couldn't figure out how OLPC and a rant against Linux worked into this web app article. Sure, your nav links aren't underlined either, but they're all grouped in standard places--they don't just unexpectedly pop up in the middle of the article.

Apple Delays Leopard to October. [slashdot.org]

Aaaaaanyway, why do we still keep seeing this binary (no pun intended) bullshit? Why does it have to be one or the other? Can't we all just get along? Will web apps ever replace desktop apps? Probably not. But--will desktop apps ever replace all web apps? Gotta give a big 'no' on that one too. So why have a story at all? What's next--"Will cars replace walking?" Web apps do some things well, local apps do other things well--and the definition of 'well' depends on the user. Email, for me, is very simple--a ten-year-old email client does pretty much everything I need, as does nearly every webmail service. And since I have two jobs, I never launch the binary email client I have on my desktop. Even when I'm home, I'm reading webmail with my laptop on the couch. For me, a web-based app has 100% replaced a local app. Since email doesn't work without *some* kind of connection--yeah, I can compose offline, BFD; it's not going anywhere without a live wire--the fact that webmail only works with a working Net connection is moot. So the main thing that people might call a disadvantage, isn't. (For me at least. I'm sure some jet-set business type is going to reply and tell me how much email he composes on a plane. Fine. It's a need of yours, but not of mine.) If I were ever organized enough to maintain a calendar, I'd probably do that online too.

He starts off by complaining that online data storage is risky. Someone should tell him about encryption. If box.net wants to give away the gig of encrypted data I've got stored there, fine. Just means more backups, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who takes the time to decrypt it will be mighty bored looking at what I've got stored there anyway.

His other big example seems to be that Google's calendar can't sync with a device. Give it time, man. A) it isn't rocket science, and I'm sure the big brains at Google can figure out a way to make that happen, B) as soon as they care to devote some time to the issue. (Look for Apple's iPhone to make this kind of thing much more popular, just like the iMac made USB peripherals popular almost a decade ago.) As he points out, there are third-party apps that make this possible--but his point seems to be that since it isn't a first-party solution, it sucks. OK. Whatever.

History keeps failing to repeat itself

[gordgekko (574109)]

Reading this discussion reminds me of every discussion I've ever seen about the thin/dumb clients vs. PC debate. Thin/dumb clients will replace the PC, why do you need all that power? Give up control! Your data is safe somewhere else!

So how is that thin/dumb client industry working out? Sell any more machines outside of a government setting since 1997?

For the most part, people want to control their important data and no serious user/business is going entrust their data to companies which promise to "do no evil" or others that have been declared monopolies or others, etc.

I don't think they can.

[Tanuki64 (989726)]

Whenever I hear positive talk about web apps, it's mostly developers who say how easy they are to deploy. Or managers and admins tend to like the idea because they seem to make their lives in one or the other aspect easier. But whenever actual users talk about web apps, I have the feeling it is mostly negative. With web apps it seems a bit to be like with Java. I know a few developers who love to develop with Java and its tools, but actually hate to run and use Java apps themselves.

Many desktop applicat

Yes I think they can and will

[codepunk (167897)]

No reason at all that the web server hosting the application cannot be running local or remote and or
a hybrid of both local and remote....

Definitely not completely

[Roger W Moore (538166)]

I'd like to see them replace the desktop Web browser application with a webbased one!

What does this have to do with web-vs-desktop?

[Grashnak (1003791)]

It is more than probable that a skilled, disgruntled employee of the company you trust with your data could ... sell off your personal information

Given that the scenario in question calls for a skilled, disgruntled insider, its unclear to me that it matters very much where your personal info is. Wouldn't the real concern be surrounding outsiders getting access to your info via a web based application? Surely an insider can get to your stuff regardless of where you keep it.

When I have ubiquitous internet access

[srussell (39342)]

I don't understand people who can use web apps to replace all of their desktop apps.

Fewer and fewer people that I know even own a desktop computer any more; most have a set-up similar to my own: a couple of laptops and a file/print server in the basement. In fact, the only desktop use that I personally encounter any more is at work.

I regularly use my laptop when I don't have an internet connection, for whatever reason, and being dependent on some network storage would severely cramp my style. People synchronize their laptops with network storage for a reason.

Someday, when internet access is ubiquitous, I'll buy into replacing desktop apps with distributed (in whatever form) apps, but I don't think we're there yet. I don't think we're even close. And, to be frank, while Google has some outstanding applications, the word processor and spreadsheet aren't even close to adequate for non-trivial use.

--- SER

Re:One word answer...

[P3NIS_CLEAVER (860022)]

The correct answer is 'web apps will replace desktop apps where appropriate'

Re:

[slazzy (864185)]

I think the best use of web applications will be to complement, not replace, desktop applications. I prefer to use a fatapp for my email because of faster searching and offline reading and writing emails - but I use webmail when I don't have access to my laptop. I would like to have the same ability with office applications.

Re:

[madsheep (984404)]

I think both of you are right. You both kind of said the same thing. In fact I think your answer compliment one another. :D But I still keep the answer to 'no' ... overall. -Steven

Re:

[inviolet (797804)]

No.

What about an internet search-engine application? ;)

EveryNickIsTaken?

[Red Flayer (890720)]

Matt Hartley? (Score:1)

I'm sorry, but really... WHO gives a shit what this guy thinks?
I'm sorry, but really... WHO gives a shit what EveryNickIsTaken thinks?

How about judging TFA on its merits, not the fact that it was written by someone you don't know.

Re:Matt Hartley? redux -- damn typos fixed

[Red Flayer (890720)]

Matt Hartley? (Score:1)
by EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) on Friday April 13, @02:09PM (#18721601)

I'm sorry, but really... WHO gives a shit what this guy thinks?

I'm sorry, but really... WHO gives a shit what EveryNickIsTaken thinks?

How about judging TFA on its merits, not the fact that it was written by someone you don't know.

Re:

[thePsychologist (1062886)]

Well, there have been very similar articles. And the discussion won't be different, and the discussion is the important part of slashdot right?

Discussion might go something like: web apps are good for intranet applications like a calendar, web apps are sometimes less secure, desktop apps can be used offline (no wait! there's a new feature of Firefox somewhere, RTFA, web apps are useful for this, desktop apps are good for that, and there's a balance. Blah blah blah.

Why Desktop Email Still Trumps Webmail [slashdot.org]

Peo [slashdot.org]