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Dell or HP for Small Business?
Posted by
Cliff
on Sat May 19, 2007 04:36 PM
from the if-you-had-to-go-with-a-big-name dept.
from the if-you-had-to-go-with-a-big-name dept.
fruitbane asks: "I work for a medium-sized non-profit, approximately 50 full-time users and 100 desktop PCs. We're redoing all our technology plans and budgeting; that means it's time to pick vendors/brands and stick to them, something we haven't reliably done in the past. Sites like Consumer Reports review various PCs and manufacturers for home users. Are there any comprehensive reviews or advice sources for those trying to determine the best vendor/manufacturer for small business desktops and laptops?"
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Find someone local you can trust (Score:5, Insightful)
As a small business computer consultant and a computer repair technician, I think the issue will be more about who can help you with the inevitable problems that will occur when you use the technology in your workplace. Everyone will have their preferences, I know that at our office, we recommend Acer notebook computers and desktops, and our users seem to be happy with the advice. (Incidentally, Acer is #1 in Notebook Computers in Canada, where our office is located).
For us, the important thing is not so much the brand of computers, as each consultant will have his or her own preferences in this area. The key is the business relationship between the person who is fixing your computer and the vendor. As an Acer Authorized Dealer who also has a service relationship, we are often able to order in parts to the store to fix the client computer systems when there are issues. This is quite different from many other computer stores where they may sell the computer to you, but have to send you right back to HP or Toshiba or wherever else for service. As for Dell, the direct sales approach offered by the company means that there is rarely a reliable channel for local support for your hardware, relying instead on centralized phone support that is not always with the same person.
My opinion is that nothing beat having a local reseller to call for service that knows your business and knows your network and knows your hardware, which can help you with your issues and fix your problems.
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What the fuck? I can see *maybe* doing that back when '98 wasn't too stale, but in 2006?
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Once again, though, I think it's more a
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No, it's not. XP installed directly as NTFS has most of the filesystem security set up properly by defult. If you install to FAT32 then convert to NTFS every single thing on the machine is defaulted to wide open file permissions.
And I'm sorry, but any company that decides to make their LCD monitors cheaper by silently removing half the onboard image memory and simply discarding the additional color bits that the video card sends is
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I'm not able to find the article any more. It was a couple of years ago when 17in LCD monitors really started to drop in price and Acer suddenly came out with a low end model that was $50 cheaper than anybody else. I was looking for info on it at the time and found a review site that had done some color testing and weren't seeing what they expected to.
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Hehhehhehheh, good one! Are you employed by Dell or something?
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Ah, then you probably had a direct corporate account with them. Yes, if you spend enough money you can sometimes get halfway decent service from Dell.
Re:Find someone local you can trust (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
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The key is to kn
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Similarly, it would take a lot to get me to drop HP and go to Dell. As a (small) business customer, I can go to their website, fill out the form, and I've got my replacement part in hand the next day. No questions. They trust that I know what I'm doing when it comes to diagnosing a hardware problem.
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While buying very high end parts makes a good home built PC, no company can make money selling quality components locally and compete with the Dell or HP model. So you are either charging too much to the customer or using substandard/
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That used to be true but Dell has gotten so greedy lately that you actually can build a decent quality white box for less, even allowing fo shipping, labor, time spent ordering parts etc. Now granted that's not if you're just buying from NewEgg or something, but if you're actually in the business and dealing with the distributors directly Dell really isn't a very good deal any more. Too bad really, they used
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Reality (Score:5, Interesting)
1) What are your goals. Are they to save money?
2) Do you truly believe you will need "Gold/Platinum" support?
3) Can we get by without some of the big guys? (Dell/HP/etc.)
4) Is there room for savings/alternatives? (Dotproject vs. MS Project... Surgemail vs. Exchange + Outlook)
For 50 users, I'll give you a summary of what I worked with at one point a while back... Computers were a combo of Gateway and Acers we purchased off an auction lot. Most were from a business that went under. Minus HD's... We spent about $100.00 each for about 70 machines. Disks? We brought them in a lot as well. Servers, we purchased our own 1 Sun Netra 1 280r off of eBay for databases. Total cost about 500.00 for the servers. We purchased a brand new 2U server from Tiger and slapped on Linux for LAMP stuff and used SugarCRM, Surgemail, and Dotproject. Surgemail itself saved us big bucks from having to be scammed into using MS Exchange, etc.. Dotproject saved us from buying Project Server which we would have needed for what we needed to do. At first project managers didn't like it, but they also had Project on their personal machines anyway... They got over it. Project + Exchange for that SoHo (3 offices 70 or so people) would have been in excess of about 40k. (remember... seats, etc.). We ran NFS, Samba, and a couple of other things which were transparent to the layfolk. Bottom line we spent under 20k setting it up. Our most expensive purchases were Netscreen's to keep things secured (VPNs). Those cost us about 3k each.
Re:Reality (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
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That's a... let's see... helical penis?
Must be surplus tort^Winterrogation equipment from Abu Ghraib.
Lenovo? (Score:3, Informative)
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If I was buying equipment for a company, I'd seriously look at the lower cost Sun machines. If I was going to buy a brand new computer, instead of build it, I'd probably choose Sun.
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It's not a thinkpad -- there isn't the same physical quality in it, it's pretty ugly, and you get a touchpad instead of a trackpoint. There's no titanium case, etc.
But I've been very pleased with mine. It runs ubuntu well, if you're willing to use ndiswra
Macs vs PCs (Score:3, Interesting)
it's already outlasted an apple laptop a friend bought at about the same time.
I've bought 4 new, well really 3 and a factory remanufactered one, Windows PCs and of them only one did not have any hardware troubles in the first year I had them. On the other hand I've also bought 2 used Macs and they both lasted longer than the PCs did. The first Mac I got was an SE30 in 1992. It lasted without problems until 2000, when the floppy drive died. The second's a Powermac 7300/200 I got in 2000, a few months
Go local (Score:3, Funny)
Multinaional PC Companies lost the plot: Buy local (Score:5, Interesting)
That's all changed. HP are now heavily outsourced with increased breakdowns from PC's made in China (which, lets face it, never understood 'Quality'). HP have outsourced customer support to India. If you do have a problem, you'll have to argue with an arrogant call center operator who has been told he holds all the cards and that you are at his mercy. The company doesn't give a damn about quality or customer support.
Another poster suggested the local guy. I'd concur. The most important part of the PC is the motherboard (ASUS have a good name as a Taiwanese supplier who 'got' quality), HDD from Seagate or another reputable HDD manufacturer (fortunately most of the bad ones like IBM have been driven out of the business). Using a local guy you can get your own PCs built that'll be far better than any of the cost-cut, outsourced crap you'll get from the Multinationals. These days smaller companies have a much better grasp on quality and reputation. You'll also be supporting your community and country.
Re:Multinaional PC Companies lost the plot: Buy lo (Score:2)
I'm not arguing against buying local, but a local business may not be able to handle the volume of a 100 pc + order, and that is a factor that the company will need to take into account.
Re:Multinational PC Companies lost the plot (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course you need to check them out before you buy them, have a trusted referral or ideally have been buying from them for several years. Their service is light years ahead of the Multinationals. These guys need customers. 'Chandler' who wants 'to provide you with Excellent Service' from some outsourced HP call center on the other hand doesn't care if you live or die.
If you're talking very large orders, say a few thousand PCs, there's are medium-sized businesses who can integrate it for you on a contract. I'd trust an ASUS Motherboard far more than whatever the hell is inside a HP or Dell this week.
Parent
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The good new, though, is that the machines are built with all off-the-shelf components, so if something breaks, it is easy to fix or replace.
HP Uses ASUS Motherboards (Score:2)
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I've had good experience with ASUS Motherboards in Desktops. Don't know what's inside HP laptops, but my last HP laptop broke shortly after I got it. It was under warranty so I thought "Hey, no problem!", only to find service consists of arguing with Indian Call Center workers who have been trained to think customers are cockroaches, and then fixed by a 'HP
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i've worked in computer repair for too long to really suggest anything but HP if you're going with one of the big companies. if you're going desktop, you'r
Outsourced Customer Support (Score:2)
Dell learned the folly of this few years ago, and to their credit pulled out, only to have HP blunder on and make the same mistakes a few years later.
Clarification... (Score:5, Informative)
This doesn't rule out the smaller, local sources, but there can be a longevity issue there, as well as priority. Who says he can be there tomorrow with a replacement part in hand to get you back up and running? Yes, we're trying to save money, but staff time is more expensive than any single technology decision, so Linux and used computers are really not the way to go. We have adequate funding to get what we need, but we have to spend that funding wisely. When trying to standardize the products one uses, for ease of ordering, support, and keeping consumables in stock, making a bad decision can really set back the entire institution. And for that matter, when ordering 100 - 120 computers every 4 year cycle, paying an extra $50-$100 per computer can be worth it if you know you will get reliable, timely, and quality support for a quality product in return.
But how do you predict?
And to the individual who stated technology cycles every 3 years, I think that's a wonderful ideal. On a practical level, however, especially where smaller places with tighter budgets are concerned, a 4 year cycle makes more sense. Also makes it more worth investing a little extra up front.
Call them and ask them. (Score:4, Insightful)
So try to focus as much as possible on getting the SAME model for everything that is possible (without under-powering something).
Then get a couple of extra hard drives and a spare machine. In case of disaster, just drop in the spare machine or a replacement hard drive.
Otherwise, get on the phone and talk to the vendors about getting a 4 year, overnight replacement warranty on your hardware. Shop around. See what prices you're quoted.
Local sites will PROBABLY not be able to provide that kind of support. That requires a warehouse where you can leave extra parts. So don't expect that. Understand that you'll be storing your own emergency replacements AND spending the weekend getting the replacement server up and running after a disaster. You'll save money up-front AND maybe get some good-will. But you're trading your time for those savings.
If you keep churning the technology on a 3 year basis, you should be good.
If you're looking at 4 years, you're running a bigger risk. It depends upon what you're comfortable with. Hardware can fail at any time.
Parent
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I know of a number of organizations that were bit by the Dell Inspiron 1100/1150/5100/5100/5160 systems. (As someone that works day-to-day with fixing notebook computers, we run into a lot of these systems). These systems have a great deal of problems, from motherboard issues and overheating to physical problems with the design. The issues are serious and with some models these issues lead users to launch
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> How does an IT department reliably evaluate the big vendors to determine who's going to go the necessary distance
> and be a good business partner, especially for a smaller customer?
Exactly! Multinationals are focused on the next balance sheet. Once they have the money and you've signed for the boxes, you're a liability. Sure in theory if you like them you might buy something in the f
cycles (Score:2)
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And there is an online site that you can order through.
Don't rule out Gateway (Score:2, Informative)
Here's my take (Score:2)
I think Lenovo is worth investigating. They feel more durable than either HP or Dell too.
HP (for Windows) servers , Dell desktops/laptops (Score:2)
Dell. (Score:4, Informative)
Their PowerEdge servers are solid. I've had hundreds, maybe over a thousand, in service over the years and haven't experienced too many problems -- certainly nothing out of the ordinary.
Their Latitude laptops are pretty nice. Maybe not the nicest laptop in the world, all of mine have lasted at least three or four years, not including time spent in friend's and family's hands after I give them away. In service in the corporate environment, again, I've had very few issues.
In terms of service, I've never been disappointed. With Gold support, you get excellent service, IMHO. It does cost a lot, so be sure you need it first. But even with the lowest form of support, I've had decent experiences. Does it take longer to get ahold of someone? Of course. Do I have to wait longer for parts? Yup. But that's what I paid for, and it has never been excessive.
Anyhow, that's my short answer.
robert
Dell. Period. (Score:3, Insightful)
HP, however, has a ton of problems it needs to resolve. It's site is counter-intuitive, both on buying a system and getting support for whatever you have. It's offerings are very fixed, even after it borged Compaq. Some offerings have variations that are hard to find, and some even harder to find support to. I hear the customer service isn't worth the phone call.
I'm not sure about Lenovo, since they're owned by the Chinese government. Gateway I haven't heard from, but depending on how hard you're on laptops, maybe Panasonic?
Two Answers: (Score:2)
From a support view (Score:3, Informative)
At my last job, I ran a much, much smaller datacenter with only about 6 Dell servers (I use the term data center loosely). There we had what Dell called 'Gold level support'. The fact that I usually spoke with native English speakers was awesome all by itself. But I could usually get a tech on site much faster, and with much less hassle. And we got a direct line to Tier II support.
Stear clear of big international brands (Score:3, Insightful)
Find a small or medium sized vendor, preferably headquartered in your area, that carries a good small-name brand, store brand, or whitebox lineup. Ideally you want systems composed entirely of bog-standard interchangeable off-the-shelf hardware components.
In Ohio, for example, there's an outfit called Microcenter, with locations in Columbus and Cleveland. They carry big-name computers like HP and so forth, but they also carry a whitebox brand called PowerSpec. After I discovered this brand we quit buying Dell and HP and so forth where I work.
I got tired of having a computer that's six months out of warrantee have a part go bad (a CD-ROM drive, say) and not being able to replace the part because it was non-standard in some way (e.g., designed to fit behind a non-standard case front). All the big international brands pull those sorts of schenanighans, for no good reason, and it leaves you with computers you can't service the minute they're out of warrantee and therefore must replace entirely when even a cheap component dies. Oops, I can't replace the power supply because it has a special connector for that weird fan in the front of the case. Oops, there's a case fan making a racket and I can't replace it because it has a non-standard mounting form factor. These are the sort of unpleasant surprises you can expect with the big brands. Usually you discover it about two months after the warrantee expires.
Do yourself a favor. Avoid the big international brands that like to have a new non-standard "feature" for each model line. Instead find a brand that uses 100% standard off-the-shelf components.
Never buy a computer that rhymes with "Hell". (Score:3, Insightful)
Three years later she was saying "You were right". Every model was a unique design, the motherboards, power supply connectors, cases, and everything was designed to force you to replace the computer when you needed to upgrade, to force you to go to Dell for support, and when the warranty runs out you're out of luck.
HP? The HP desktops I've seen have been bog standard ATX cases and motherboards, maintainable and upgradable without HP's help. Much better value.
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And since this is about my third post correcting the misinformed I'll go ahead and lay out what we're recommending right now:
Servers = HP
Workstations = "whitebox" (either build it yourself or ha
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