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Real-World 3G Monthly Cost With Taxes and Fees?
Posted by
timothy
on Sat Jul 19, 2008 06:56 PM
from the best-salesman-bluntly-tells-the-truth dept.
from the best-salesman-bluntly-tells-the-truth dept.
Kristl writes "I have called AT&T and walked into several AT&T stores to ask 'How much will an AT&T phone plan cost per month with taxes and fees and everything?'. No one can answer this question. They are evasive and become testy when I push them on it. Their answer is they can't tell me what the government is going to charge me as the fees can vary month to month, but I've been an AT&T customer for several years, and my taxes and fees have not varied more than a dollar in all of that time.
So I question them: 'Can you just tell me what the taxes and fees will be for a 3G plan in California that has the basic calling plan, basic data plan, and the basic text plan?' I even do the math for them, that's $75. Okay AT&T, what are the taxes and fees on $75? Oh, they can't tell me that, as the taxes and fees can vary from month to month." There's more to this justified rant (below); real-world numbers in comments could help answer the questions that cell carriers seem content to sidestep as completely as possible.
"Okay ATT, can you tell me what the taxes and fees were on $75 plan last month? No.
Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.
Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.
So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!
This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"
Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.
Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.
So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!
This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"
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Submission: 3G monthly cost with taxes and fees by Anonymous Coward
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simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Too expensive or looks shady? Don't fucking buy it. Take your money elsewhere.
Re:simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no there, there.
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Re:AT&T (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:simple solution (Score:5, Informative)
and where is elsewhere? Seriously, when they're all doing it where is elsewhere???
Virgin Mobile. NO extra fees. At all. Why they say 10$, they mean 10$. Just add sales tax.
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Re:simple solution (Score:5, Funny)
Don't fucking buy it. Take your money elsewhere.
Can I do that with my income taxes too?
Parent
Re:simple solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Norway is known for it's high tax rates. Most people pay 50% or more of their income in taxes. That is, they pay 50% or more of their taxable income in taxes. Since there appears to be no end of deductions one can take in Norway, most my relatives pay less taxes than me, despite having higher incomes.
As if that wasn't enough, they can buy an iPhone with only a one year contract. Which can't be extended foreer and ever, like the contract I would be expected to sign if I bought an iPhone in the US. As if that wasn't enough, the Norwegian cell phone plan would be cheaper than the US one. Even if I had an iPhone purchased in Norway and used it in the US.
Even if I kept using my old Sony Erickson phone, a Norwegian cell phone plan would be cheaper. Even if I used it in the US.
Other countries probably have even better rates. AT&T needs competition. REAL competition.
Parent
Re:simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to say it, but I don't think competition would do it. I think regulation will be needed to fix the phone industry as a whole.
It's taken regulation in Europe and other countries to achieve fair and honest telecommunications; it's just a petty that America is unwilling to regulate an industry with such a stranglehold on everyone.
I remember back in the 90's the telecom companies managed to get billions from the government to upgrade their networks to speed up Internet access, but nothing happened with the money, and there has been no government checking if the money was spent on the Internet.
This isn't a rant about what you said, but a rant at the government I guess. We shouldn't be lagging in Internet access for any reason right now.
Parent
Re:simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Ways phone companies rip you off in the US:
* The "guess your monthly usage" shell game. Guess high, and you're paying for services you don't use. Guess low, and you will be hit with a 100 dollar bill for overusage
* Grossly overcharging for text / multimedia messages
* Grossly overcharging for data on non-unlimited plans. I remember downloading a game once on an AT&T network... the game cost 5 dollars, and the data charge to transfer the game was 10.
* Locked into contracts / locked phones
* Disabling features of phones they don't like
* Compared to worldwide rates, overcharging for basic minutes too.
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Look to Norway (Score:5, Informative)
The main difference that can make a cell phone much cheaper in Norway than here in the US, is that you don't pay for incoming calls. There's no "air time". You only pay for outgoing calls, just like with a land line phone.
Another big difference is that in Norway, you have close to 100% geographical coverage, and that's a country that's sparser populated than almost all US states, with lots of mountains and only a couple of percent arable land.
And, as you hinted at, it's common to buy phones and plans separately, with no long term bindings where you get a "free" phone designed to lock you to just one provider.
In all three cases, this is due to legislation. Funny thing is, the cell phone companies there still make money. There's more than 100% market penetration for cell phones in Scandinavia. "Everyone" has at least one cell phone, and some have several. So my guess is that what they make the money by selling more, not by squeezing more.
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What you get for 50% (Score:5, Informative)
Because I know people are probably going to choke on a figure like that, people need to be aware that because the taxes are so high in a place like Norway, they have a lot more government-provided services, stuff that we have to pay out the wazoo for in the U.S. Heath care [meulie.net] is an obvious one. Obviously, I suppose it's ultimately up to individuals whether or not they want government paying for stuff for them. My personal opinion is that here in America, unfortunately, companies and our government are so corrupt that it couldn't possibly work.
But the point is that even if your taxes are 50% in Norway but only 35% here, it's entirely possible that your disposable income—and by extension, your standard of living—could actually be better.
Incidentally, the richest people here in America don't actually pay 35%. The dirty little secret that rich people don't want you to know because you'd probably vote it out of existence is that the tax rate on the wealthy is closer to 15%, which is much lower than you or I likely pay. (What's your marginal income tax rate? [invest-2win.com]) The reason is because wealthy people don't earn most of their money through income—you know, salary and wages. Income earned by the really wealthy comes from capital gains (i.e. stocks, bonds, and other investment devices), which is only taxed at 15%.
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Re:simple solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Another big difference with the UK is that in the UK prices advertised are legally required to include everything (there are a few exceptions, most notably flights, but these are being closed). You never buy something, get to the checkout, and find that it doesn't include tax. The same is true with mobile phone contracts - whatever taxes there are have to be included in the advertised price.
This often makes things look much cheaper when you compare US prices, but then you get to the checkout in the US and they add city sales tax, then state sales tax, then some random product-specific tax and you're only paying slightly less. I've never understood why Americans are so opposed to the idea of knowing how much they are going to pay before they buy something.
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Re:simple solution (Score:5, Funny)
An invasion of privacy? Oh puleeeez. May you should ask the NSA who is tapped into your phone. They'll tell you everything about your "plan" with your own tax money.
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Biased much? (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, direct answer to the question of "how much total for basic calling, data, and text?" is pretty much always about $100 to $120 here in the U.S. For the iPhone, Treo, Blackberry, Voyager, whatever. In case you actually didn't know...
Re:Biased much? (Score:5, Funny)
...this was a problem well before Steve ever even thought of the iPhone.
What? Did the universe even exist back then?
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My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee (Score:5, Informative)
The answer is: They honestly have no idea. They're trained to say what corporate tells them.
Training typically focuses on trying to sell you on gizmo features and plan upgrades. They simply ARE NOT given that sort of info and, in my experience, the people that work these jobs are not the type to go the extra mile to figure it out or in some cases don't want to say the wrong thing and have an angry customer come back and throw the phone at them (seen it happen over the most marginal shit.)
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Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee (Score:5, Funny)
whenever I call T-mobile their reps seem to be 20-something flirty females. ... it seems like they'll do anything to get you to stay
Holy shit do I have the wrong carrier
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My 70 Dollar ATT plan (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Biased much? (Score:5, Funny)
$80 is nowhere near "about $100".
Sure it is, it's about 80% of the way there.
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lol @ twitter (Score:5, Funny)
The effect of forgetting to switch accounts when shilling your own posts can be described only as halfway between creepy and amusing.
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Re:Biased much? (Score:5, Interesting)
BTW, avoid that $5 insurance fee like the plague. My ex was paying $5 insurance per month on a late-90's pre-Ericssen Sony phone. When it finally broke, the insurance said that they didn't cover phones that old. Of course, she had been paying them the entire time to cover the phone that old, but they re-assured us that such a thing was not possible. They then asked if she would like to cancel her coverage.
See also this [consumeraffairs.com] class action suit. These frequently come with a 100 dollar deductible and send back a refurb phone that is less expensive than that deductible. Similarly, they insure the current value of the phone, not the purchase value. As the value of the phone drops, your premium does not, and the likelyhood of a functional replacement drops to zero.
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ever fill out a tax form? (Score:5, Informative)
Figuring out the taxes on a phone line is rather complimakated, difficult enough that providers have made mistakes on it in the past and had to refund overcharges or eat the difference in undercharges. I'm not surprised that the salespeople don't know, and I'd bet nobody on phone support will know either. This is a brand new service, and once customers start receiving their typical monthly bills you'll be able to find out.
Re:ever fill out a tax form? (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet they manage to send out hundreds of thousands of bills every month that calculate it down to the penny. Sure, they might make mistakes and have to offer refunds or disclaimers, but there's no excuse for them to not be able to tell you exactly what a $79.99 plan in a given ZIP code would have been billed after all taxes/fees were added last month.
This is basic customer service, not some advanced alien technology beyond the reach of AT&T.
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Re:ever fill out a tax form? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:ever fill out a tax form? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then get the right software on your fucking computers that CAN PULL THE NUMBER OUT OF YOUR ASS ON DEMAND and stop making apologies for a crappy system. There is no reason you can't at least give a close estimate.
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Re:ever fill out a tax form? (Score:5, Insightful)
So in other words, you would be fine with customer service reps randomly looking up your account records to answer this sort of question?
I can not imagine a way in which that isn't an invasion of privacy, and I would not be doing business with AT&T any longer were they to allow that sort of behavior. It's bad enough that the NSA may or may not be listening in, do you really want some underpaid salesperson snooping as well?
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wow (Score:4, Insightful)
Like the "franchise fee". That's my favorite. I don't give a fuck what you have to pay for your fucking franchise--please stop pretending like you don't have any choice in the matter. But on the other hand, in a lot of places, they actually rig it up so that they are _required by law_ to charge for things like that, for money that they actually keep.
US weirdness (Score:5, Interesting)
In most of Europe, sellers of consumer products are required to state the actual final price that the consumer is paying. And that includes monthly cell phone tariffs.
Eliminate Component Based Pricing (Score:5, Insightful)
When traveling to California last year, that was one thing that I really didn't like - how prices are quoted exclusive of tax.
In Australia, the price quoted has to be the price that is paid by the consumer - the airline industry recently got into trouble for not doing this i.e advertising cheap fares exclusive of the fuel levy, tax and other surcharges.
In addition to this, the amount of tax that was charge very often ends up on the receipt so businesses can use it to calculate their GST credits etc
Re:Eliminate Component Based Pricing (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been told that this is actually a deliberate aspect of the U.S.'s generally tax-suspicious culture. In essence, you are supposed to know just how much you pay in taxes on purchases, so that you get worked up about it and resist increases and push for decreases. If the tax were invisible, it would be less ofa political issue.
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AT&T's customer service is awful anyway (Score:4, Interesting)
I went in the other day to get an iPhone and change my plan that I've had for several years and they were surly as hell.
The guy who was waiting on me kept just walking away for a couple minutes at a time and wouldn't answer anything straight.
He wouldn't say when they were getting another shipment other than to say they could put me on a waiting list if I paid in full today and then it would be one to two weeks.
He never really looked me in the eyes and kept mumbling when I would talk to him.
Most questions were answered with "I don't know" and then when it came down to it, I had to dial 611 to change over my service because I was an old customer.
I still want to get an iPhone because it really is the perfect device for me and my mac based household, but I wish I had an Apple Store near me where I could have at least gotten decent customer service.
I hate AT&T (Score:4, Interesting)
The shit sandwich question (Score:5, Informative)
I recall reading a comment here, not long ago, stating that dealing with mobile providers in the US was like 'choosing between shit sandwiches'. This, unfortunately, seems to reiterate that this is the case.
Over here in the UK, things are a lot better. If you don't like customer service, you change network. Simple as. I switched from Tesco Mobile (poor customer service on O2's otherwise excellent network) to 3 earlier this year, and the process was quite painless. Am I right in saying that having mobiles on contract is more common in the USA which is what makes dealing with providers such a nightmare?
Re:The shit sandwich question (Score:5, Informative)
Am I right in saying that having mobiles on contract is more common in the USA which is what makes dealing with providers such a nightmare?
Yes. On this side of the puddle, phones are heavily subsidized... To the point that some phones are "free" with a 2-year contract.
GSM is relatively new here (as in, it's not what we started with, unlike many other parts of the world), as well, and this makes things more complicated. If I have a Verizon Wireless (which, until the merger of AT&T and Cingular was the largest carrier) phone, I can't take it to any other provider, because VZW uses CDMA. T-Mobile and AT&T are GSM, but GSM coverage isn't nearly as widespread here. Once you're out in the sticks, if you've got a GSM phone, you're lucky to get service.
We're in the stone-age here.
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just ask (Score:5, Informative)
I work for AT&T. Maybe you are just asking the wrong questions. Every time I activate a new customer I give them a print out of exactly how their first months bill and normal monthly bills will break down. This print out is avalible through any AT&T vendor and is called a CSS (Customer Service Summary) This print out breaks down everything on you bill including rate plan, data, messaging, extra services ( insurance, roadside assistants ...) taxes and fees broken down by which entity is charging which fees and taxes. Any good sales person will present you with this at the time of the sale. If you not getting one maybe you should consider going to a different AT&T store. Just like everyone else that franchises their business you are going to have good agents and bad agents.
Re:just ask (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like what he wants is to know *before* he signs up for a plan, not after activation.
Parent
And these are the simpler, 4th-edition rules! (Score:5, Funny)
Probably because it's too complicated to figure just off the top of their heads, or because they haven't determined your alignment and class.
According to the 4th ed. FC&C Salesmaster's Manual, the taxes on a $40 calling plan is 2d10+2 percent for all classes and alignments of customer.
However, the rules get tricky when adding the data and text plans. If you add those and the customer is any Lawful alignment, or your class is Apple Cultist, the monthly fees and taxes are a d20+30 per month.
If you're Neutral, sales should charge 2d10+2 percent of the total purchase in fees, plus a flat setup fee of 3d20, and whatever the local tax rate is (see Table 13-4.7, "Telecommunication Tax Rates of Municipalities, Provinces, Kingdoms, Shires and Deities").
If your alignment is Chaotic, or you have the Late Bills or Frequent Support Caller flaws, or your class is Go Phoner, your fees are (3d20)d20+(d20)d6, plus (2d20)d20 percent taxes, plus 2d6 in franchise fees, plus 3d20+d6 setup.
If you're identified as Chaotic Hard-to-Please alignment, the Salesmaster may simply escalate fees and taxes and make up complex usage rules (2Gb bandwidth cap except on Fridays and the alternating days of the third week of every fourth month, when it's 256k, for example) until the customer gives up.
However, if sales can't determine your alignment or class - if you're a new customer, for example, or your billing and prior plan history isn't available -Âthey will probably refuse to answer your questions. If a customer immediately submits, they get Apple Cultist treatment. If a customer questions the refusal but eventually submits, they get Chaotic treatment.
If a customer is an insistent questioner, the Salesmaster considers the player in combat and gives the player d6-2 rounds to flee before calling security (see U.S. Government's "Monster and Enforcement Officer Bestiary," table 2.1-1, "Rented Muscle").
Even Worse (Score:4, Insightful)
I want wiretapping broken out (Score:4, Interesting)
The portion of the "regulatory compliance fee" that's chargeable to CALEA (i.e. wiretapping) should be broken out and listed as such.
That was easy (Score:4, Informative)
Re:That was easy (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I'm not American, so I don't know many zip codes. So I just plugged in the only one I do know: 90210
Here's the lovely summary at the top:
So, this represents the most AT&T will charge you - would be nicer if it was exact, but an upper cap sounds good. But what's the next sentence? There will be other taxes & fees not listed?
Given that I entered a zip code, the federal, state, and local governments in question are all known. But the page doesn't list these fees. In other words, just like the OP's complaint - AT&T doesn't tell you what your costs will be upfront.
Sorry, but both you and AT&T fail.
Parent
Reduce your cell-phone taxes -- switch zip codes (Score:5, Interesting)
(1) Switch to e-billing
(2) Change your billing address to anywhere in Portland, OR 97202
(2b) You might need to switch your area-code to 503 -- some carriers will let it slide though
(3) Get charged the lowest cell-phone taxes in the country
I saved about $4/month switching from Taxachussets to Oregon. My parents saved $7 because our town (yes, the town) levies a $2/month tax on cell phones on top of the country and state taxes. Plus, as an added bonus, you can reward a low-tax jurisdiction with more revenue while depriving a high-tax one.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/06/06/cz_sw_0606cellphone.html [forbes.com]
US Wireless Taxes (Score:5, Informative)
Are there any other taxes for cell phones in the US which are directly charged to the consumer?
Yes there are various excise taxes [wikipedia.org] levied on cell phone bills. The federal government as well as state and local government each levy their own taxes on wireless communications. This [taxfoundation.org] is a slightly outdated listing of taxes by state. For the most part it is a "because we can" sort of tax courtesy of our elected officials.
Parent
Re:I don't get the question (Score:5, Informative)
On my (ATT but not iphone) bill, I pay:
Federal Universal Service Charge
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge
911 Training Fee
State Sales Tax
911 Service Fee
The biggest one is state sales tax, followed by the FUSC, then 911 Service Fee. The Regulatory Cost and 911 Training are $0.25 -- the 911 bit is $0.05. I pay about $6 a month in fees, overall.
Parent
Re:I don't get the question (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know about other carriers, but here's how my T-mobile plan breaks down:
1000 Minute myFaves Family Plan
59.99 - Monthly plan price
1.32 - Federal Universal Service Fund
0.84 - State Gross Receipts Tax
4.20 - State Sales Tax
0.27 - State Universal Service Fund
Line 1 .08 - State Gross Receipts Tax .06 - State Sales Tax .03 - Relay Service Device Fund .50 - State 911 .86 - Regulatory Programs Fee*
5.99 - Internet
5.00 - 400 Text Messages Plan
Line 2
5.99 - Internet
0.45 - 2 text messages (no txt plan)
0.01 - Federal Universal Service Fund
0.01 - State Gross Receipts Tax
0.09 - State Sales Tax
0.03 - Relay Service Device Fund
0.50 - State 911
0.86 - Regulatory Programs Fee*
87.08 - Total
*Fee we (T-mobile) collect and retain to help cover our (T-mobile's) costs related to funding and complying with government mandates, programs and obligations.
Parent
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
I strongly disagree! When you're talking about a month after month fee that you'll likely be paying for as long as 24 months straight, even an extra $10 quickly becomes an extra $240 you're paying in that time period. Unless you're independently wealthy or something, that's not just some "small change" worthy of just ignoring! That's about what I paid, total, for my original iPhone I bought off Apple's refurbished store.
And the issue I have with AT&T is, I suspect their "taxes" also include a lot of dubious charges. Being a govt. regulated company, it seems it's easier for them to get approval for more funding through a new or increased tax than by actually getting FTC approval for a rate increase.
I know I initially did the $79.99 per month plan, thinking like my old US Cellular plan that was priced about the same, I'd wind up paying around $85 after taxes. But somehow, AT&T wound up billing me more like $97 each month.
Parent
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know about you, but I don't buy anything else on which the tax is unknown by the seller, even though the seller is the one collecting it. When i buy something, they ring it up, the machine calculates the tax, and they tell me how much it is before I pay. The problem is that they're essentially telling you to sign a two year contract committing yourself to paying whatever bill they send you, but won't tell you what the bill will be.
It would be very easy for ATT to push out a list to their stores every month in which they say what each price plan worked out to with taxes for each state or zip code in the past billing cycle, with a disclaimer that of course if taxes and fees change the amount will be different in the future.
They just don't want to because they don't give a shit about customers or customer service, not because it's a difficult task or some mysteriously unknowable figure.
Parent
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
The other possibility is that, you know, some people have budgets; a dollar added to one item is a dollar they have to take from somewhere else, and therefore it is possible for something to be more expensive than it's worth.
Sorry to come off all persnickety. It's just that if I could get my gf to pay a little more attention to numbers like this, I swear I'd have infinity dollars by now...
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Re:It depends on the state... (Score:5, Informative)
That's why they have a web page that tells you what your charges are for your area:
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/ [att.com]
State
CALIFORNIA
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge
0.43
Federal Universal Service Fund
11.4%
State Universal Service Fund
$0.00
Other AT&T Surcharges
0.18%
Believe it or not they actually tell you what the charges are for. This is 150 times better than what we had when I was younger. Training is an issue in any retail store, but before hitting the slashdot front page, maybe a bit of googling is in order.
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