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The Stigma of a Tech Support Background
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Sep 29, 2008 04:28 PM
from the just-tell-them-you-were-a-porn-star dept.
from the just-tell-them-you-were-a-porn-star dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Since the last semester of college I've been working as a first line tech support agent. At first it was just a way to earn some extra money; then it became a way to scrape by until I could find myself a real job. By now (almost two years in), it's beginning to feel like a curse. The problem I'm having is that no matter how many jobs I apply for, and no matter how well-written my applications are, I can't seem to get further than the first interview. For some reason it seems a lot of employers will completely overlook my degree in computer engineering, the fact that I can show them several personal projects that I've worked on, and that I can show them that I clearly possess the skills they are looking for. I've had several employers tell me to my face, and in rejection letters, that my 'professional background' isn't what they're looking for even when they've clearly stated that they're looking for recent graduates. In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years. I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems and if there are any good ways to get employers to realize that my experience from tech support is actually a good thing and not a sign of incompetence."
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Submission: The stigma of a tech support background by Anonymous Coward
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Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Interesting)
No offense intended, but at least the tech support people I talk to on the phone just follow a script (which make you follow), so to me first line support means 'a hurdle I need to pass asap'. Last time I needed "support" they asked me to reboot my computer, then press the windows key, move the mouse to 'run', then type c-m-d then press enter, then type in the black box 'i-p-c-o-n-f-i-g', etc. This was my telco and the problem was I didn't have service. The woman on the phone said they only supported Windows and because I said I had linux she wouldn't open a ticket. I had to fake replacing the linux computer with a windows one ("luckily" I had a work laptop around) before having a ticket open.
Now, I'm not saying this is your case. But it's hard to believe that these kind of people are any good when it comes to computers. [I'm not saying they're stupid]
Two years doing that - looks like they just can't find a better job. If they didn't find another job elsewhere and they didn't get promoted in their absolutely low level job...well, it doesn't scream 'talent', does it?
You obviously had a chance to ask for more details, did you?
Anyway...this is what I'd think if I was interviewing you, but I might be completely wrong. I'd like to think you would have a fair chance to change my mind, though.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. I wonder if he just meant that he wasn't promoted into management but he was now higher than 1st level. That question is a very important one.
The other thing I would add is try smaller companies. I don't know who he is interviewing with (Fortune 500s, 1000s, 5000, companies of 100+, etc) but he may get a better shot at a small company where he can demonstrate his skills or they may be willing to give him a 90 day trial period.
An entrepreneur who has had to push past obstacles and may be more willing to give you a shot. Somewhere you may be able to talk to someone other than a middle level HR guy you may be able to argue your case more.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:4, Informative)
The other thing I would add is try smaller companies.
I concur.
I think smaller companies have better interviewers, and are more likely to give someone a shot for 90 days.
Also important: never underestimate the importance of your references, personal and professional.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah.. Obviously different companies allow more or less movement from a given team but I'll put myself out there as an example of why seeing someone lived on 1st Line Support for 2 years would be a negative.
My first "white-collar" job (Junior summer of U) I was hired as a Front-Line tech support person. It was at an in-house dev firm and I along with 30 others were the start of their phone-support. I never made it to the call pool. During our week of training my abilities as a burgeoning developer brought me to performing more QA/Tuning functions. At some point, when I had free time, I did spend some time on the phone but at what could best be called 3rd level support (I call you.. you can't call me)
1 week training, 2.5 months as dev-support liason, back-to-school for one last year. I don't want to degrade my fellow starting team but those that stayed in 1st level for any length of time were not destined to be developers. Everyone who had more to offer was given more responsibility (at the very least 2nd level.. most better)
Sitting on 1st-Line phone support for two years can demonstrate: Lack of ability, Lack of drive, Lack of work-ethic, Poor communication skills, etc. Maybe you are not any of those things but you certainly haven't shown that to your current employer so why should an interviewer presume anything different?
Just a thought..
Parent
Or, put bck the whole Tech support (Score:5, Insightful)
on what you were doing and demonstrate your troubleshooting skills
I don't how it is in the US, but here in Europe no law will force you to list every single jobs that you have worked on. In fact nobody expects you to. Generally you don't give out an exhaustive résumé, instead you put focus on highlight a couple of entries that you think relevant to the job you're applying for.
So a different approach would be to just remove the Tech Support from the begin of the résumé. Focus more on the academic achievement (Titles, Awards, Publications, etc.). Also on all the various opensource/personal project that you have developed or contributed (specially the ones now in production stage), trying to highlight the diversity of tools that you master.
Of course at some point of the interview the question will come what you have been doing all this time between graduation and the present.
The best is to only mention the job then and explain that you haven't considered your current job worthy of getting mentioned on a CV for that peculiar application (so they understand that you *do* indeed work, you just have something better and more interesting to pitch about you).
Maybe mention then too, that people tend to misrepresent what your job consist and tend to focus on it instead of your actual skill, thus you choose to not mention it in the curriculum. You can subsequently jump on the topic on what you think you've done actually cool that people would misrepresent : mention the tech understanding the out-of-the-box hacking/fixing, etc. so the employer gets the point that you were not a "follow the script" drool-drone.
Parent
Re:Or, put bck the whole Tech support (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, why not just lie? If you really think they care to check out the references of some 30-40K a year beginner, you're fooling yourself. They don't give a shit. So, what they're really looking for is how well you sell yourself? Oh, you sat and answered phones doing tech support? "Developed solutions for clients." You had to fill out an end of shift report? "Documented solutions accurately" You came to work on time "Demonstrated reliability and punctuality".
Now, forget the jobs, forget the education. Those are your smallest sections. Create a section called "skills" and list your skills (literally every piece of software/language/technique) you've touched and how many years you've done it. You've surfed the web? "HTTP" You've chatted before? "Realtime Communications" You've used MySpace "Content Management Systems" And since you are a "computer engineer" (which hopefully means 4 year degree and not some devry bullshit [in that case, leave it off entirely]).
If you can't get a job with a computer engineering degree you must not
A. Have a decent suit
B. Know how to shave ALL the hairs off your face
C. Take a shower
D. Be personable at ALL.
So, basically, you need to lie, list ALL your skills, and stop being such a jerk in the interview.
Parent
Re:Or, put bck the whole Tech support (Score:4, Insightful)
Not if he just graduated. "I was focusing on my studies." End of question. :-)
Parent
Re:Or, put bck the whole Tech support (Score:5, Informative)
Most employers only ask 3 questions these days:
1) Was he employed there?
2) For how long?
3) Would you hire him again?
Those answer the most important questions at least, and can't really be seen as libel toward the applicant.
Parent
To be fair, though (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, though, why should it matter?
1. Most important of all, you can give the guy a test, you know? _If_ he spews the usual stuff that spells "idiot monkey who couldn't even understand that list right" -- like that rebooting solves most problems, and activating FSAA is a fix for graphics problems (hey, rendering glitches are called artefacts too, and FSAA solves rendering artefacts. Genuine piece of "advice" I've heard.) -- then, by all means, don't hire him. But _if_ he happens to know his stuff, why does it matter what job he had before?
Especially because...
2. In that race to scrape the bottom of the proverbial barrel to save costs, since at least the 90's I've seen less qualified people in all sorts of IT and programming jobs. Some places will not only hire a summmarily retrained burger flipper if he asks for less money, they'll _prefer_ one.
So, you know, wtf? They'd hire someone who worked at McDonalds and lied about having taken a "Java for dummies" course, but they won't even listen to someone who's worked in tech suppport? Something seems amiss there.
3. Don't get me wrong. Yes, probably 90% of the L1 tech support guys are just the cheapest monkeys who can use a phone and read a list. Badly. I'm not saying all are smart and competent, or anything equally silly. But I'm saying there is a variation in competence in any job, ya know? The trouble is the other 10% who just happened to need a job and nothing else was available. E.g., if said person was still in college, I don't see that awfully many other jobs who overlap well with that. You're not really going to take a game dev job and pull 80 hour weeks, for example, when you _also_ have to learn at the same time.
Heck, even as job descriptions go, it varies substantially between companies. You can't paint them all with the same brush. E.g., as ISP tech support goes, I've seen mine go recently from abysmal to guys who can actually solve simple problems without going through that canned list. I know, it's the first sign of the Apocalypse ;)
Even getting a promotion isn't necessarily a given, if all you have is two years. A _lot_ of support and generally IT jobs have been offshored in the last years, so in some places you'd be just happy to keep your job for two years. Because everything above you is also getting reduced faster than normal attrition. Plus, there's just plain old statistical flukes. I've worked (as a programmer) for a small company where the tech support guys just had no path to advance any higher, for example. The only job above L1 support were us the programmers, and as statistical flukes happen with small numbers of people, past a point no more programmers were hired, no more managers were needed either to promote some, and nobody quit for some 3 years at a point.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could also mean that the economy is shit and these were the only jobs they could find.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:4, Informative)
"It could also mean that the economy is shit and these were the only jobs they could find."
It won't get better for some time, so consider what I did back in 1981. Join the military in a non-bullet-catcher specialty. The new Webb G.I. Bill is a FULL four-year ride to college with a monthly stipend, so you can wait out the failing economy while adding something employers respect to your resume, then get paid to go to school for another four years. With your degree, you can try for an officer slot and work less for much more money.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Caeful on that, though - I'm a vet, and while there are lots of 'non bullet catcher' jobs, there are some caveats:
The needs of the service come before EVERYTHING. Oh, you have a contract? Sue them. Good luck. If you are in the Air Force you might be able to get them to kick you out, but in the Marines (yeah, I know, if you wanted to join for the benefits, you wouldn't go there, I know...) they will put you literally anywhere, doing anything. Smart? Great - you get to go intelligence or public affairs. Not brilliant? Postal clerk, admin or cook - god knows where. Navy? Nice bet, nice culture (in my experience, I was Marines who spent a lot of time on ship) but I hope you really like travel.
Finally, consider what you give up - you will be 'on duty' working EVERY DAY for your entire tour. You will be deployed. You will probably be in either the ass end of nowhere, or in a combat zone. Best you can hope for - a podunk base in the US with nothing but strip clubs, pawnshops, tattoo parlors and hookers, watching your fellow human beings act like asshats. No college? Guess what - you will be enlisted. That means you will be the closest thing to a serf you can be in the western world. You might get lucky and have good leadership, or you might have a bunch of ROTC and service academy grads with Napoleon complexes. God save you if you don't have good Staff NCOs - and you might not, especially if these SNCOs find out you just joined 'for the benefits'.
I joined because I actually wanted to serve. After my tour was up, I got the f*ck out as fast as I could, and when my honorable discharge papers came in, I had my uniforms at the goodwill that day.
Oh, and BTW - EVERY enlistment is 8+ years. Read the fine print on your contract - your 'active' time is the 2, 4 or 6 years, but that is just the ACTIVE duty time. The difference up to 8 years is 'inactive reserve'. They can call you up if there's a need and guess what there is right now - big need. And no, they don't just 'need' combat MOS. I knew public affairs people who were stop-lossed, and that was in 1992. Gotta have those 'reporters' and PR folk, y'know. Its critical to the war effort. Seriously, they have a Table of Organization, and if there's a slot, you will be on it, period. They don't care that you were going to college, getting married, or have just had enough. We used to say USMC stands for 'U Signed the Motherf*cking Contract' and it is true. Don't sign it unless you really want it - do yourself and your fellow potential servicemenbers a favor. No one likes serving with someone who isn't really motivated to be there.
Sorry. Rant over. Good luck.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Interesting)
Good caveats. I did 26 years in the Air Force, (which has been aptly called "college with a crew cut!) and I met MANY people there who bailed from all the other services (except Coast Guard!). Did the usual (Germany, Korea, 2-something years sandbox deployments, etc) and would do it again in a heartbeat. Aircraft maintenance was great techy fun (Avionics/Engines/Crew Chief on OV-10/F-4/F-16 A/B/C/D).
Retiring debt-free before age 50 is nice too. I'll be doing the "professional student" thing for a few years (after Aug.'09 when my VEAP-victim self is eligible). Lots of my friends went with related careers after retirement (tech rep, AMT, Lockheed mod team) and are doing nicely. I don't have to work (yay for retiring where it's cheap) so I'll go to school for fun.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
In that case I'd say drop it from your resume entirely... If you were in school, you don't necessarily need to explain what else you were doing.
Especially if you have some other projects to talk about
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure. MAYBE these people CAN do what they went to school for, but taking such jobs right out of the gate tells me and others that you are incapable.
The sad thing is that a lot of employers also hold this prejudice. Honest people and intelligent people aren't willing to sell themselves with fake resumes, nor can many people who get out of school with massive student loans afford to wait around for an ideal job offer when there are bills to be paid.
I've always found that people often blame the misfortunes of others on personal attributes, and in their hypocrisy they blame their own misfortunes on other people. It's shameful.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I think every developer should do a year or two in end user technical support.
All too often there is a disconnect between those that design and code software and the end user.
If this person worked their way though school doing tech support than that is great.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Actually I think every developer should do a year or two in end user technical support.
All too often there is a disconnect between those that design and code software and the end user"
YES! PLEASE.
I work in tech support, and the bane of my life is application developers who think they're God's gift to the Turing machine and yet don't have the first clue as to how their precious little world-saving application is going to 1) share data with other systems, 2) be packaged and deployed and patched on real-world environments, and 3) be tested, debugged and trouble-shooted by the *users*.
Most application developers seem to have the unconscious assumption that *their* program is the only one that exists in the whole wide universe, that *its* data store is the only data worth considering, and that they, the developers, are the only people who are ever going to need to understand how their program works and test it. Because *of course* it's never going to have any bugs after it's shipped, that's quite unthinkable. And if there are, why, you'll be happy to erase all your data and reinstall from scratch, including Random OS Support Library Foobar version 42.3.1415, precisely, which will never conflict with any other installed version. Because you're just 'a user', and all you get is a black box that either works or breaks mysteriously.
Except tech support people are a programmer's worst nightmare: users who can think, and who need to get at the guts of your software to make it actually *work*.
A programmer who sneers at tech support people is a programmer who quite simply HAS NO CLUE as to how software is used in the real world and the wider context of what they're doing. And that kind of programmer has no business writing software at all.
Programmer arrogance is a huge part of the software quality crisis.
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not that I was complaining, mind you -- I got hired directly into the sys admin staff even if there were people in Tech Support who probably would not have had the learning curve I had at first...
Parent
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years.
Are you a good tech? If so, why haven't you been promoted? Or at least assigned to head tech or second level support?
No offense, but when I did the same thing as you I was in "Team Leader" training in 3 months. All call centers I have worked at (only 2) and most that I have heard of, have enough turn over that by 2 years, a "Computer Engineer" should be moving up the ranks.
I think part of the Peter Principle talks about how lower level or entry level jobs are usually done well by those that wouldn't do well in management or more difficult jobs. Also, perhaps you are not a good tech, but a great developer. This all might be working against you, to no real fault of your own.
Perhaps take a part time job as a developer... advertise that you are willing to work part-time for no benefits and that you know some modern languages; that you are willing to work the night shift doing testing; that you will work for $int_cheap_labor per hour - something to get your foot in the door and working wth professionals.
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs. There must be a little more to it. Try to advance in your current postion, or broaden your *professional work* experience (not personal projects).
I don't (Score:5, Insightful)
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs.
I've experienced a similar stigma working with Big Iron: "Oh, you're a mainframe programmer? Well, we don't do much of that anymore, most of our stuff is object-oriented..." Nevermind the fact that I've been doing C++ for more than a decade. I experienced a similar stigma when I got into embedded development. My degree says computer science, not IBM mainframes.
Some people just can't wrap their head around the fact that you aren't tech support. Personally, I would not put anything on my resume that wasn't career related. The fact that you have tech support on your resume probably makes them think that you think it has something to do with the position offered. They don't need to know you worked as a tech support - sure, you might have to put it on the application, but it should stay off the resume.
The next time it happens, you might want to end the conversation like this:
Them: Well, we're interested in hiring an engineer... Not so much tech support...
You: Have you ever worked in fast food? I thought so! I'm not interested in working for a burger flipper, either...
Believe it or not, I've said worse to an interviewer...
Parent
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:4, Interesting)
That also depends on the call centre
I worked tech support for Apple, I was front line on the phone, I did that for 2 years.
There was no real advancment for a technical person. The reason? Outsourcing. I worked, not for Apple, but for Minacs Inc. Mincas is not a computer company, they are a call centre company. So the promotion line was up to team leader and manager positions, which are just classic non-tech manager jobs: employee evaluations, quota targets, avg phone times, etc... Anyone with a degree in anything technical or scientific would be going in the wrong direction there. You could maybe get a job with the IT dept, if they were ever hireing and then you'd have to get them to hire someone off the call floor.
since we weren't Apple, we didn't have every dept. Tier 2 was in California, in fact we only had front line agents, so the only place I could got was to a management position that was usually filled with people who spent more of their day manipulating the call tracking system to make them look better on paper than the people who actually did their jobs well. Yeah the people who just hang up on you are the ones who are put in charge.
The jobs are good money for when you need it. But it can be hard to get out of it when it can take months to find a job in your actual field and sometimes a promotion at a particular company isn't actually beneficial.
Parent
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had mod points, I'd mod this up as insightful.
The OP is either the unluckiest guy in the world, or is being rejected for very legitimate reasons.
The OP should take a very close look at himself. I would recommend the following:
1) Ask friends or acquaintances -- who are software developers -- to give you a mock interview. After that, have them give you an objective appraisal.
2) Go get certified in something to do with software development. Computer engineering has little overlap with software engineering. Taking a certification is going to give you a clue as to what you are missing. Plus, it will give your resume a (little) boost.
Going from technical support into R&D is a tough move. But you need to get the advice and direction from people in the business that you trust.
Remember, if you want a different result, then do something different. Seek counsel and advice.
Parent
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:4, Insightful)
It is possible that he also works for a piss poor company. Some shops will keep him in that position forever if
he lets them. Much easier to do nothing than promote him and have to train someone else who will likely turnover quickly. If he
leaves then they still have to train someone but nothing lost to the company.
Parent
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, that's possible. But then how do you explain this supposed "support taint" on his resume? Which I too find hard to believe. During the downturn a few years back, I did that kind of work to make ends meet. I don't recall it hurting my prospects. On the contrary, a customer-facing job gave me a little breadth of experience I'd lacked before.
I think there are other issues here the guy's not acknowledging. Which is often the case when somebody's having trouble finding work.
Parent
Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you need a dry run with an interview expert to evaluate/grade your performance.
Its very possible you are committing one or more "interview success killers" and don't even know it. It may have nothing to do with your resume.
Re:Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:5, Informative)
I was going to say the same thing. You suck at interviewing. I look at a lot of resumes and interview a lot of candidates - I am one of the technical gateways to getting hired.
I look at most resumes for an average of a minute. I am mostly looking for past experience to ask you about and to quiz you on skills you say you have. If I pass on you it's because you sucked in the interview, not because of anything that was on your resume.
Here are some things to ask yourself:
- Am I dressed and groomed appropriately?
- How is my hygiene?
- Am I well spoken and can I communicate clearly and effectively?
- Have I thought about real answers to the typical questions and not just canned responses (i.e. strengths, weaknesses, greatest accomplishment, long-term goals, examples of working in a team, etc.)? You need to have well thought-out responses to these questions that apply to you.
- During tech interviews, can I provide real world examples or am I spitting out algorithms and examples from text books?
Practice your interviewing skills.
Parent
Re:Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:5, Funny)
Also, when you do a job interview, please, for everything that's sacred to you, do NOT - repeat, DO NOT - put in your resume your "superninja@hotmail.com" e-mail address !
(A friend of a friend learned the hard way)
Parent
The best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Bingo! Remember, you are not required to list every single thing on your resume. For most people an empty two years would be a suspicious hole, but for a recent graduate they wouldn't expect constant working in addition to your school. If they ask you about it, tell them the truth: you worked tech support to make money for school but you didn't put it on your resume because you don't feel it's relevant to your experience for this job.
Parent
That seems really odd... (Score:5, Insightful)
I am nearing the point in my career where I will have to start *hiring* coders, and one of the first things I am going to look for is a background in bridging the gap between "software systems" and "people"
If the positions you are applying to don't seem to get that then I can only offer 2 thoughts:
1. They don't understand software development that well, so you should probably not work for them.
2. *Explain* what I just said above in your interview.
The real reasons aren't the stated reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
Work on interview technique.
How to get hired in Tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I wouldn't hire you either - you have no experience.
"How can I get experience if no one will hire me?"
Well, you have an /excellent/ choice of career paths in computers, because you don't need a benevolent company to hire you in order to get experience. In fact, in my own hiring, it's the experience that happens /outside/ of a "job" that makes the most difference. If you really want to succeed, do something. If you are trying to be a programmer, write that project you've been wanting to do; don't wait. Once you have it written, that goes on your resume. I wrote a /HORRIBLE/ stupid graphing calculator for Windows CE and started selling it, and that is absolutely what got me hired as a coder. Don't have the werewithal to make a whole project? Contribute to existing open-source packages, and reap the same benefits.
Or maybe you're looking to become a network engineer instead of a programmer. Set up your own virtual cluster of machines running under KVM, make it do fun things, show off your ability to create a secure environment, and put it on your resume as experience. Even better, when they ask you about it, you can offer them a copy of the entire setup on a DVD, with all the virtual machines...
Either one of those scenarios would get you hired by me, regardless of the rest of your resume -- not only does it show definitively you can do what you want to do... far more important is the fact that it demonstrates you love doing this stuff; you love it enough to do it on your own. That is key.
You're lucky - you've got a field where the cost of doing it "in your garage" is absolutely minimal.
Call center experience /is/ good experience, in my personal opinion. I had early jobs at call centers. I still value that experience as a developer, because it helps me remember that people are idiots who will mess things up if you give them the slightest opportunity. This is critical to keep in mind when developing anything. But it's no substitute for actual experience in programming. I think you can sell your experience in call centers to someone who will hire you to do other things, but you'd best have some additional selling points, because while that experience has some value, it's not a hiring-value.
Re:How to get hired in Tech (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me add something, since the OP did mention his personal projects.
It's possible you just suck. Yes, your projects may compile and run, and do what you want, and your experience in school may have left you feeling like the head of your class. It's still possible to be bad at what you do.
That's not saying you are inevitably going to be a shitty programmer your whole life. Really, really being good at what you are doing takes a lot of effort.
Anecdotally, my first real programming job interview was with Jellyvision, who were making the (at the time) totally popular game "You Don't Know Jack." I had a long interview with their hiring people and they loved me. I came back the next day and spent all day interviewing with their programmers and design teams and hanging out at the office, which was pretty nice. They all thought I was great. Then I came back in for a third day; the third day I was to bring in a CD of my own code, explain it all, and participate in a code review of what I'd written. They never talked to me again after that, and I know why -- my code SUCKED. I mean, really, really bad. I found some of it on an old disk a year ago and was /horrified./
I'm better now. I'm not great, but I'm way better.
Parent
I feel your pain... (Score:4, Interesting)
...and, unfortunately, I have no useful advice to offer.
I worked tech support at a (then) Fortune 100 pc "assembler" and seller, including as a member of their corporate tech support group. After I took a job on the company's web team, I was laid off, went back to school full time and got a master's in comp sci.
I tried to find a job developing embedded systems, preferably in defense industry. I had / have a security clearance, decent grades, significant work experience... and finally after 18 months, one offer from a small company which I quickly took. Nine months later, they laid off 40% of their engineering department...
I never had anybody figuratively "turn up their nose" at my tech support experience. I think they just looked at it as non-specific work experience, i.e. "could hold a job for extended period of time without getting fired."
Since then, I've found very well paying work that is still in the IT industry, but really isn't what I had hoped to find.
Now I am in my early 40s and prospects of finding the kind of work I was interested in (and still am) are quickly fading.
I am trying to find satisfaction for my itch in personal projects.
I don't know what it is, but there must be something that I have been lacking or failed to show / demonstrate in interviews.
For what it is worth, I wish you well in your search.
If you think tech support is bad, try having none (Score:4, Interesting)
Two years in tech support (Score:4, Insightful)
1) You smoke. People who work in tech support smoke.
2) Do you drink and / or drug? My experience with TS folks is that they tend to have a higher rate of both than the norm. Do you happen to fit any stereotypes of either of these? I have long hair for example - people assume I'm a pot smoking hippie.
3) You probably spoke negatively of your current employer. This is because TS sucks. However, this is a huge warning sign for employers.
4) You probably think you are above your current job, and it comes out in the interview process. People don't like people who are like this.
If I am totally off the mark, my apologies. If even one of these sound like you, then you may want to think about what you can do about it.
PS> Being a smoker isn't ever going to be the stated reason you didn't get a job. I don't think it can be, officially. Still, it's the same as showing up wearing too much cologne - people take their sense of smell seriously. Smokers generally don't smell good (too much smoke, overcompensating mint, etc) and it does hurt their odds of success. It's not something I would consider in an interview but I've watched it happen to smart people who should have been moving ahead.
This is Not About Technical Qualifications (Score:4, Insightful)
This problem is not about technical qualifications. In fact, you see this sort of thing in food service, sports, journalism (real journalism, not blogs), photography, building construction... you name it.
You are pretty much screwed. You've been had cheap and people's perceptions are so, so hard to change.
Prospective employers only want you for what you have done and aren't interested in anything else.
I recommend that you omit your employment history from your job applications and resumes. Explain that your parent's financed your education and provided your food and housing. You never had to work.
We're not talking about too much time, here.
Just lie about it. (Score:5, Funny)
Pretend that you've been in prison for 2 years. That's far less embarrassing.
Tech supprt is awesome (Score:4, Informative)
After several years as a developer, I found a job in tech support. Now, years later, I still love it. This is not your typical call center stuff: my customers are engineers. I am respected, the pay is good, the customers are fun, and the challenges change frequently. Many tech support engineers use their position to get their foot in the door and skill up and move on to development, but I'm pretty happy in support.
relax and enjoy the brainless job that you have... (Score:4, Informative)
- you'll have more responsibilities...
- work long and late hours...
- get paid less than you expected ('cause you're - gonna get a position that will somehow won't qualify for overtime)...
- spend sleepless nights worrying about some system or code that's been kicking you ass...
and you'll wistfully remember those carefree days shortly after graduation when you had a carefree job that you could leave at the office. all joking aside, you'll find another job with a better opportunity for advancement and better pay. what are you, 22-24? give it another year or two before you panick... you have a scant amount of experience, and in these economically tough times, it's likely that even though an employer says "recent graduates" they have a really high expectation that can only be filled by someone with more experience.
get to know people within the field/market you want to work in... show the person you want to work for that you have a pair of stones and you have the talent to back it up! go to trade shows and press the flesh, email prospective employers and ask if they have an opportunity for you, canvas your friends and family, church, coffeehouse, etc.
did you every take a job hunting/resume writing/interviewing class in college? they used to have these life lesson classes in high school, and i'm sure they have them in colleges as well... IMHO you might need coaching in life skills:
- learn to start and hold conversations with strangers
- learn to speak without using "umms", "aahs" and "you knows"
- learn to read body language
- learn how to take an interview
and quit complaining on slashdot about your career shortcomings, man up and figure it out!
I'm here to help (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, I hate to be mean but you need to know the truth. If you're getting any kind of interview, the problem isn't your resume it's your interview skills. You wouldn't get an interview if they weren't ok with the tech support background.
The resume gets you in the door, the interview skills get you the job.
Re:I'm here to help (Score:5, Informative)
Mod parent up. This is absolutely true. If you are getting an interview, you are past the first and biggest hurdle in getting a job. The first task of any hiring manager is to go through and, one way or another, grade the resumes into two piles: "Unqualified" and "Qualified on paper." They may automate this or not--doesn't matter. If you get an interview, there is nothing on your resume that repulses them, including your work history, which is already apparent to them before they call you in. They would not take the considerable time to call you in if they didn't think you were otherwise qualified.
So that leaves you. Coupla suggestions:
1) Go to an employment counselor or even a friend and set up a fake interview. Tape yourself. Grimace and look at the results. If you have a habit of picking your nose when you're nervous, well....you might not even know.
2) Learn more about the company then the interviewer knows. "I see this company has enjoyed a 30% growth rate over the last few years. If this keeps up you'll be the biggest company in the world in ten years. Since that can't happen, what are your plans? How will you stay focused?"
3) You've been to interviews. You know the questions. Develop some cracker jack answers. Where do you see yourself in five years? You KNOW they'll ask that. "What is your greatest weakness? strength?"
Anyway, good luck. It's tough.
Parent
Its what you did. (Score:4, Funny)
The person who interviewed you was the one who called you two weeks ago. They said, "the computer beep is too loud" and you said, "ok. first, we have to reinstall windows from the recovery disk."
Parent
Re:just lie, make stuff up (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to have a friend who was a master of fudge. He was great at making up qualifications for jobs he wanted, and after a few years, he'd amassed a long list of jobs he'd gotten that way. The only problem was, he'd lost them all for the same reason: they kept finding out he'd lied to them and fired his sorry little ass. Once, he got a job as a trainee for tech support at an ISP; he didn't last until lunch on his first day.
Parent
Re:All your knowledge is 2 years out of date (Score:5, Insightful)
That means that you're essentially the same as one of this-year's graduates, except that you'll have had 2 years to forget stuff and won't have been taught the current stuff that this year's grads.
What current stuff? Have data structures changed much in the decade since I graduated? (no) Have databases changed at all? (not appreciably). The only difference is that some stuff is now java and not c++. Whoopty frigging do.
Parent