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How Long Should Companies Make E-Bills Available?
Posted by
samzenpus
on Thu Jan 08, 2009 03:19 AM
from the forever-billed dept.
from the forever-billed dept.
theodp writes "If you say goodbye to paper and hello to green, you may learn first-hand that no good deed goes unpunished. Try to pay your final Verizon Wireless bill online after switching carriers, for example, and don't be surprised if you get a sorry-Dave-I'm-afraid-I-can't-do-that reply. Other vendors may curtail e-Bill services 30 days after you end service. And a promise of access to up to seven years of paperless statements is somewhat empty if you'll be cutoff as soon as you no longer have an account. With more-and-more companies enticing consumers to go paperless, how long a period of time should the records be made available online? Should it extend beyond the life of an account?"
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if the tax agency comes knocking... (Score:5, Insightful)
My bank holds (for free) information for 18 monts (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That is exactly the kind of service I am looking for. My old bank was recently taken over, and neither of their websites allowed me to view anything more than the past month of transactions. In addition to that disservice, the new bank got rid of the surprisingly wonderful e-banking site used by the old bank, replacing its user-friendly, intuitive interface with a shitty homegrown classic ASP checkbox-n-submit-ridden mess that doesn't support half the functionality of the old one. Not only that, but my a
Re:if the tax agency comes knocking... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well of course they're still available. I called my Discover Card one time to look-up old statements from three years ago, and they were not available online, so they politely mailed me printouts. There was no charge.
As for going paperless, I've not done it because I'd probably forget to pay the bill! ;-)
Receiving that paper in the mail is a convenient reminder.
Parent
Re:if the tax agency comes knocking... (Score:5, Interesting)
I thought this eBill thing was a neat idea when it first came out years ago for one of my monthly services. So I signed up for it. There was an error in my billing a few months later, and I called and had it corrected. Instead of showing up as a correction on my following billing statement, they had changed the original incorrect bill. Looking at my online account, everything seemed as if it had never had an error.
I canceled eBill immediately and refuse it from all other vendors now. I want this information for my own records, and I don't want them being the one who controls it and gets to rewrite history in case there was a problem.
I'd consider it if they could email me a PDF of the same document that comes as a paper bill. They can put all those other bells and whistles on too if they want, but I want a copy in my possession that they don't have access to change, without having to remember to save it out by hand every month, and in a format that gives me the legal leverage I need to be able to prove the document came from them (eg, email headers on the email with the attachment on a 3rd party mail server such as GMail).
EBilling is a way for your service provider to control history, and to deny you access to information which might condemn them should they screw up in some serious way. I need better control over this than ebilling provides.
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Re:if the tax agency comes knocking... (Score:4, Interesting)
As for going paperless, I've not done it because I'd probably forget to pay the bill!
Heh, it's exactly the opposite for me. When I have a paper bill, I remember that I need to pay the bill, but never to actually do it. I'm always remembering "Oh yeah, I need to send that check out!" while I'm at work. I've even had an envelope with a check in it sit on my counter for weeks... all ready to go, I just needed to remember to take it to a mailbox.
With e-bill, I can accommodate my stupid brain, and pay it when I remember to do it, instantly. ;)
Parent
statute of limitations (Score:5, Interesting)
They should provide access as long as one might reasonably need it which is at least as long as the statute of limitations give one to take legal action.
Another blow against libertarianism here on /. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's called a contract people. Are finally at the point where there is just no such thing as freedom of contract, and therefor contracts no longer mean anything? There is no duty on "the little guy" to actually download and save his own records, after choosing a paperless billing? So again we are calling for the nanny state, that which is so vilified when it tries to do the things government was founded for - protect me and my shit from bad guys, foreign and domestic - to intervene in private contracts because we don't happen to like one of the contractors? So it's a horrible slippery slope to force a rapist to turn over his e-mail account, to drain a mosquito of blood to catch a car thief, or to use technology to catch a terrist outside of the country. That's going to lead to all of our civil liberties being trampled.
But go ahead nanny state, go right on in and arbitrarily intervene in private contracts. Because we here at Slashdot are libertarians for us, and statists for the other guy.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's called a contract people. Are finally at the point where there is just no such thing as freedom of contract, and therefor contracts no longer mean anything?
Based on some recent dealings with with large companies, I'm becoming convinced that no, contracts don't mean anything any more.
Things like claiming someone owes them more money even after they've fulfilled the letter of the contract, then when it gets to court, backpedalling and saying they made a mistake, but it's too late now because they've already sold the debt to a debt collector. At that point, under the law here, *someone* has to pay the debt collector, and guess who has a pair of big guys come arou
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Err, no. If the debt that the debt collector bought is found to be invalid, the piece of paper the debt collector has is worth as much as a share of Washington Mutual. That's
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
30? I doubt that. When I worked for JCPenney I had the task of disposing of old receipts. We had an entire room filled with boxes which were stuffed with register tape. The law required 7 years; anything older was tossed into the dumpster.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As your signature shows, you are aware there are other countries then just the USofA.
One might also note that each of the 50 United States has its own separate statute of limitations.
Fsck VZN (Score:2)
I had Verizon DSL and POTS. I decided to go with the T-Mobile @home VoIP service and dropped my POTS with Verizon. I kept getting paper bills which I would then go to my bank site and billpay. About 4 months later my DSL service dropped and I got a nice check from Verizon for the exact amount that I had paid them the last 4 months. Seems that they changed my account number and I didn't notice so I was canceled. I then find out that you can't pay for just DSL at the Verizon stores but must call a third
Have NAS, will save (Score:4, Insightful)
For years any time I had a bill, statement, tax form or other document I thought "You know... there is a remote possibility I might just want that in a year or 9"... I'd do a quick Print to PDF and bang... I've got my own copy without any need to wonder 'how long should they keep it for me'.
Sure... the hard drive it's own could die, but because in this horrible thing called self reliance... I take steps to make sure that I will still have access to copies just in case without having to ask such questions or worry about hard drive death or house fires.
Personal responsibility... try it!
Re: (Score:2)
"Personal responsibility... try it!"
Oh stop being stupid with that red herring!
This isn't about "personal responsibility".
It's about transfer of effort and risk from the company billing you to you yourself.
And about companies removing a service that they have led you to expect will be available. This person is expecting to pay their last bill online, like they expected to (and succeeded in) paying their previous bills online.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Depends on Their Importance (Score:2, Interesting)
Entitlement ... what is with it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not being allowed to see the closing statement for your account is quite a big deal if you are unsure of the balance they want paying.
As ISP I once used had a £40 account closure fee. I couldn't find it written down in any of the paper sign up documents, although it was in online terms and conditions (which the sign up contract said could be changed at any time). I suspected it was illegal to really do that, in the UK at least, so I just put a bar on the payments and paid off everything except
Re:Entitlement ... what is with it? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not being allowed to see the closing statement for your account is quite a big deal if you are unsure of the balance they want paying.
I am still going through this with my phone company. They didn't send me the final bill then dropped the account with debt collectors. When I called up to request a bill they added a $5 charge and posted it to the wrong address, after putting me on hold for about an hour. A full day of my time later I finally got a correct payout figure from them; and it was worth a lot less than the lost income.
Suffice to say, it's going to court this year to recover my lost income for spending a full day chasing the issue and not being able to work, for having to avoid getting listed on the bad credit register.
Parent
more paper == more trees (Score:3, Informative)
I hate how people think that reducing paper will reduce environmental impact. Trees that are used for paper grow VERY fast, and even out here in the Pacific Northwest, in logging country, I've seen the clear cut fields, but what they don't show you, is across the road is a 5/10 year old forest that is already hella bigger than you ever thought trees could grow in 5/10 years. I dated an ex-logger for awhile, and he told me, "we cannot cut it down fast enough."
If you want to save trees, DON'T WORRY ABOUT PAPER OR WOOD PRODUCTS, those industries cannot use the wood fast enough. What you DO want to worry about are the people CLEAR CUTTING RAIN FOREST LAND in order to grow enough crop in order to feed their family. Give subsidizes to every farmer near the rain forests to not go out clear cutting, and WOW! Deforestation problem solved.
"Paperless is green" is a foul's quest. BTW, I also dated a guy working at a paper mill, toilet paper, and paper towels (even nice paper towels) are made from saw dust... the scrap that is left over from making lumber. They're actually using WASTE product to make their consumer products. So, again, use as much toilet paper as you want, we won't exceed available supplies of WASTE SAW DUST.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't you think they would trumpet their use of saw dust if they in fact used it? I can't find any evidence on th
Re:more paper == more trees (Score:5, Insightful)
A chicken's quest? Probably meant "fool", but it's funnier this way. :)
Anyways the "paperless is green" idea isn't because we're going to run out of wood. Almost all paper is made from trees that are grown (and replanted and regrown) for that purpose. However turning that wood into paper and shipping it to the utility uses energy and money. Putting ink on the paper likewise isn't free, and mailing it (in postal trucks that burn gas) isn't free either.
Whether you measure in total energy spent or dollars, it's cheaper to have online bills than mailing out paper statements. Most places let you download a PDF of what the paper statement would have been, giving you the efficiencies of online bills while still being able to have a copy of old bills (and print them on demand).
Utilities push online billing because it saves them money; the fact that it also saves energy in the process and is more convenient for consumers is a win/win/win.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Utilities push online billing because it saves them money; the fact that it also saves energy in the process and is more convenient for consumers is a win/win/win.
I moved to Germany recently. My utility has a great idea but might not work elsewhere. They estimate my utility usage based on last years usage. They bill me a monthly amount. At the end of the year if I used more they bill me for it, if I used less they refund it. I receive one "bill" a year. It really isn't a bill as it is automatically deposited/charged to my bank account.
I realize a lot of people aren't as trusting as is required in Germany (all my bills are automatically withdrawn, ie. the companies
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to save trees, DON'T WORRY ABOUT PAPER OR WOOD PRODUCTS, those industries cannot use the wood fast enough.
I respect your belief, but I think you're wrong. Those plantations that grow the trees that you say will supply paper endlessly are, I hate to say it, finite in area. Therefore, the paper they can produce is finite. Now, I guess the other thing you're saying is that they're plantation trees being felled. Now, that is correct. But before it was a plantation it was probably a native forest. Now, those forests were cleared many years ago, so arguing the point now is... pointless--they're plantation trees now.
Re:more paper == more trees (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah the old "it's all your fault because you live in a wealthy country."
There has to be someone close at hand to blame.
It couldn't stop at the shitty governments in south America. No.
It can't stop at the overly powerful companies. No.
God forbid.
No, it has to be shifted until the person you're talking to is being held responsible because he walked past one of the above on the street one day.
Why? because *random person in the first world* hasn't hunted down and shot the CEO of Mcdonalds? Because he's occasionally paid for services from the company?
So any transfer of money now makes you responsible for all evil done by everyone who touches that money from that point on?
Are you responsible for rapes committed by that weird guy working at costco? If you hadn't given money to the store where he worked in exchange for that product you wanted they mightn't have been able to pay him which might have meant he wouldn't have been able to afford the van he abducted his victims with!
YOU MURDERER!
There's good reason to shift the focus on to people who are doing the slash and burn. He didn't demonise them, he recognised that they have a very good reason to do what they're doing. And in the end they're the people who have to be helped if we want to do something about the problem. Going after the CEO of McDonald's might have the whole David vs Goliath feel but in this case beating the Goliath would do sweet fuck all. Another company would step in to fill their place, or 3 companies owned through the philippines would step in and do the same thing and sell on to a 4th based in the Bahamas which would sell on to McDonalds or Walmart or ten thousand independent little bars, cafes, restaurants and diners which are not part of any giant and easy to complain about company.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Trees that are used for paper grow VERY fast
Just out of curiosity, what species of tree are they growing?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate how people think that reducing paper will reduce environmental impact.
Why do you hate people thinking correctly? Regardless of the number of trees available, it still takes energy to make those sheets of paper, ship it to the consumer, and dispose of/recycle it once it's finished with. So, how does it not reduce environmental impact to use less paper?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Something to bear in mind. The data centers are going to run anyway. They're going to store the information on a computer anyway. It doesn't matter what the saving is for not having the bill printed, that will always be saved.
The interesting thing is this was true forty years ago too. Your phone bill was processed by a mainframe and stored on massive loops of tape, but it was stored. Your bank records were stored on massive loops of tape, but they were stored. What's changed since then has been massive a
Let the law handle it (Score:2)
How about... (Score:2)
For the duration of the account, save all past bills. When the account is closed, give the consumer 30 days access to past bills, somehow. Also, perhaps the company should retain the bills for no less than 12 months after the account is closed, for legal or tax reasons.
Re: (Score:2)
For tax reason it must be kept for 10 years. I my memory serve well IRS can go to 10 years old declaration and ask for proofs.
Not forever (Score:2)
In response to the tag 'forever'.
I think we're getting too reliant on trusting other people to keep our data. Don't get me wrong, there should be a minimum (and maximum) length of time that 3rd parties keep records of our transactions... they're the 3rd parties transactions as well, after all.
Expecting a 3rd party to keep records of transactions beyond a reasonable (or lawful) amount of time is, I think, crazy. 100, 50, or even 20 years ago this wasn't expected. Of course the third parties had to keep (pape
Storm in a tea cup (Score:2)
Obviously if the item was something like a Credit C
email - let the customer archive them (Score:2)
Is there anything wrong with emailing the bill to the customer and letting them archive it (or not)? I know it's not secure, but neither is a piece of paper in the physical mail.
What's the value in deleting records? (Score:4, Interesting)
Thanks to Moore's law, there is very little value in deleting records except in very extreme cases, or when the data itself acts as an un-necessary liability.
If you assume that you have enough storage for the current year on hand, are you going to more-than double the amount of storage you need over the next 18 months? Very few business will say "yes" to this, and thus the cost of storing everything is DROPPING with each passing year, despite the ever rising amount of it.
We recently upgraded one of our D2D backup arrays from 300 GB drives to 1.5 TB SATA drives. For less than the cost of the original array of 300 GB drives, we ended up with 5 times the storage space in just over 2 years, meaning that the cost of the old data is now 1/5 what it used to be. We were profitable keeping that data 2 years ago, so in a sense, we are 5x as profitable keeping that same information today!
So why would we delete it?
Why should they save it (Score:2)
If someone sent you a paper bill that you wanted in the future would you expect them to re-send it on demand, as opposed to just filing the copy they already gave you? Why should the rules be any different just because the original copy was electronic?
Here's a handy rule of thumb -- if you can see it in your browser, you can save it to your disk. Even if they don't provide a handy PDF format -- which many companies do -- you could generate a PDF locally, or even just save the HTML source. Heck, even if ther
It doesn't stop paper arriving though! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Paperless" just makes you do all the work (Score:2)
"Paperless" or "Online" billing simply makes it entirely your own problem to remember to make the regular effort to access the billing information and print it off or save it (and back it up). It does not remove the requirement to keep your own archives for as long as you need them (which for financial information is as long as the taxman can ask for it!)
Many companies can and will blame you when you don't have a copy of the billing information because you didn't download it or relied on them to keep it ava
The article (Score:2)
Is anyone a bit bothered by a company fining, I mean charging, you to receive paper bills? Shouldn't the goal be to encourage without penalizing people to go paperless? Paper bills still have a use. It's a hard copy. No worries about digital decay.
Happens sometimes for final billing (Score:3, Interesting)
Calling them to ask to send a bill on paper was useless - once they hear you aren't a customer and aren't interested in signing up again you're put into the "On Hold Forever" queue.
Got an email a month later saying I hadn't paid, but of course every email says "Do not reply to this email - if you have questions, log into your account", which didn't exist.
I finally sent them a check for what my standard monthly bill is, knowing it was too much. Since then, for three years, they've been sending me a monthly statement, by snail mail, telling me they owe me about eight dollars. Every month, for three years. Just send me a check!
Re:Alternative to online account access/storage (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Alternative to online account access/storage (Score:5, Interesting)
My previous mobile contract had paperless billing, and you could either view the bill as HTML, or click the "Download" button which gave you a PDF to save. This was over SSL, of course. You could email it to yourself if you really wanted to.
I don't know if/when they'll close the account, but it's now been open for about a month after the contract ended.
If I asked for a duplicate paper copy of a bill in two years time, it would be reasonable for the company to charge me. So, I don't see why they should have to keep the bill-viewing service running indefinitely either.
Parent
ignore my post (Score:3, Informative)
Re-reading the gp, and he's probably implying he had to log into some account management web tool. Which would provide the access control. Never mind ...
Re:Alternative to online account access/storage (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>Because statements sent from Bob to Alice would likely be intercepted by Carol
So? My neighbors routinely intercept my snail-mail, and yet they've never sought to do harm to me. They just politely wrote "forward" and it eventually found its way to me. People have this false belief that physical mail is somehow more secure, but in reality it's just as vulnerable as email.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of the time my mail is delivered to an entirely different part of town. I have no idea why that happens, but it would be very easy for that stranger to keep that intercepted mail and use it for his own purposes. Physical mail simply is not secure.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Easy, but a felony. Physical mail has legal protection that e-mail just doesn't enjoy.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You know how many times I've gotten somebody else's mail in my business PO box? Like GP said, physical mail is not secure.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)