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How Does a 9/80 Work Schedule Work Out?
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Jan 13, 2009 07:52 PM
from the on-the-ground dept.
from the on-the-ground dept.
cellocgw writes "My company is in the process of implementing a version of '9/80,' a work schedule that squeezes 80 hours' labor time into 9 business days and provides every other Friday off. I was wondering how this has been implemented in other companies, and how it's worked out for other Slashdot readers. Is your system flexible? Do you find time to get personal stuff done during the week? Is Friday good for anything other than catching up on lost sleep? And perhaps most important, do your managers respect the off-Fridays, or do they pull people in on a regular basis to handle 'crises?'"
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I worked 9/80 for 4 summers (Score:5, Informative)
Also (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd rather have 4x9hour days, a 10% cut in pay, and 3 days off every week. (Hey, most of the last 10% is taxes anyway, right). If everyone did this, we could avoid tons of layoffs nationwide, lower energy costs (4 days commuting instead of 5), and 3-day weekends every week ...
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Interesting)
The best schedule I ever worked was 12 hour days. I'd work 3 days one week, and 4 days the next week. I always had either 3 or 4 days off.
A buddy of mine worked a variant of 9/80 schedule. They worked 9 hour days M-Th, and then worked a half day every Friday. Frankly, I'd rather have a full day off every other week.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a firefighter. I work 24 on, 48 off. As long as there aren't calls during the night, I get paid to sleep. Relevant to your question? No. Friggin' Awesome schedule anyways? Yes.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm self employed and have often worked 12 hours / day. While the idea of taking 3 days / week off is appealing (and I've done it), I find that when I work 12 hours / day my productivity goes down the drain incrementally with each hour. I get extremely tired by the end of the shift and my brain turns to mush.
I get way more work done doing a standard 8 hour work day with weekends off. Of course that's just me, though.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Funny)
If I could, I'd gladly shed 20% of my pay for a 4-day workweek. I might even be persuaded to shed more than 20% to get a four-day work week. :-) I would not, however, want to lose time in my evenings to work more hours to get the same or similar pay. Well, some evenings it would be okay, but other days I'd have to make it up on the front end because of evening activities, and I wouldn't much like making it up on the front end. (Wait, there's a 7:00 in the morning? Why didn't anyone tell me!?!)
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Interesting)
Not Right.
The idea that at a certain point, the govt takes most of your earnings in taxes is an urban legend.
For anybody working by the hour, there is no "tipping point" where the govt keeps most of each additional dollar - it is just untrue.
>>If everyone did this (4x9hr days), we could avoid tons of layoffs nationwide.
A company can avoid layoffs by cutting hours and pay.
If everybody at every company had their hours and pay cut, their bills remain the same, so the workers' spendable income after covering expenses is either gone or greatly reduced - You have just created a recession.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Informative)
If it can knock you down into a lower tax bracket you can come out ahead.
You will never decrease your tax liability by making less enough to compensate for making less, all other things being equal, even under a system as complex as the US tax code. If you think it can, tax brackets don't work the way I suspect you think they do.
For instance, suppose in a hypothetical universe the brackets were set up so that $0-$50000 was taxed 0% and $50000+ was taxed 50%. If you made $60,000, people would say they fall into the upper bracket, but that doesn't mean they are paying $30,000 in taxes (which would imply that getting a $10,001 pay cut would increase take home pay by 20 grand). Rather, they pay 50% of the amount of money they make in excess of $50,000, meaning they will pay $5,000.
Continuing the analogy, if there was another bracket starting at $100,000 with 75% tax, someone making $200,000 would pay:
* 0% of the first $50,000
* 50% of the next $50,000 (or $25,000)
* 75% of the next $100,000 (or $75,000)
giving a total tax liability of $100,000, rather than the $150,000 they would have to pay if they were paying 75% on everything.
Now, there are changes to your employment state that can have big consequences. I am a grad student, and am taking up a teaching position this semester. Before I was a research assistant. RAs are exempt from FICA taxes (this is at least true in my state, and I think is common) but as an instructor I won't be, so even though I will be getting a nice raise, I'll also essentially be taking an instant 7.5% pay cut too. There may be something similar going from part time to full time or something like that which would apply. But in any case, if taking a pay cut actually increases your take home pay, it is definitely not because it puts you into a different tax bracket.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Interesting)
Excellent post. I can't tell you how many people I know who misunderstand tax brackets and think they can be substantially penalized for earning an extra $1 if it puts them into a higher bracket.
Another factor I would add that even further detracts from that myth, since I saw you mention it, is FICA. (For non-US residents unaware of FICA, it is a separate federal payroll tax which funds Social Security and Medicare.) For 2008, an employee pays 6.2% up to $102,000 for FICA. If you compare to the US income tax brackets [moneychimp.com], any money you earn over that $102,000 up to $164,550 is being effectively taxed at 6.2% less than the $78,850 to $102,000 earned (considering Fed Income Tax plus FICA, the vast bulk of most payroll tax). The $164,550-$357,700 bracket raises the rate 5% on additional dollars earned, which still leaves you paying 1.2% less and only when you enter that top bracket are your additional dollars effectively taxed at a whopping 0.8% more than you were taxed for $78,850 to $102,000.
Bottom line, under the US federal tax system you never lose money by making money. In fact, it really doesn't look so progressive when you spell it out like that.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Funny)
Which is why I encourage my employer to pay me more than $102,000. Not only do I get taxed less, but so does my employer. Alas, they didn't see the logic in my argument, nor in the charts which showed the average person with my experience in my position earning $120k in my locale.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, that isn't even the worst misconception people have about taxes. Many people (most?) don't even realize that the taxes that come out of their paychecks are "withheld". They think that they have to pay one set of taxes through the year, and a seperate set of taxes at the end of the year. Just look at the tax preparation commercials that are now running where they are bragging that "95% of our customers receive a refund". They say it like it is their great service that gets the government to give you money and that the fact that you have been overpaying throughout the year has nothing to do with it.
Scarier yet are the commercials that ran last year by H&R Block. Their commercial boiled down to telling people that they should trust them with their money because they were holding a lottery.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Informative)
Are people really that stupid? A simple google search turns up:
For single filers (this is slashdot after all):
(Tax Rate Schedule X)
* 10% on income between $0 and $8,025
* 15% on the income between $8,025 and $32,550; plus $802.50
* 25% on the income between $32,550 and $78,850; plus $4,481.25
* 28% on the income between $78,850 and $164,550; plus $16,056.25
* 33% on the income between $164,550 and $357,700; plus $40,052.25
* 35% on the income over $357,700; plus $103,791.75
Do you understand what the fuck that means? If you make less than $8025, you get taxed 10%. If you make between $8025 and $32550, that means you pay 10% on the first $8025, and 15% on the rest. That means the effective tax rate at $32550 is 13.77%.
At which fucking point can you come out ahead while making less money?!
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Insightful)
You have absolutely no idea how the US tax code works.
Nobody knows how the US tax code works.
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Informative)
There is no doubt that, cutting back to necessities (as the country may finally be lurching toward), we have a surplus of working capacity. If people *really, really* cut back to needs (rice, beans, 100 warm square feet), we'd have 75%+ unemployment. Tech, mech, and automation meant that we had enough surplus to have more hairdressers and marketers than farmers. The flip side is that we don't need more farmers, even if millions wanted to go back to it.
As for me, I'm lucky as hell. I'd found the ability to work 30 hours or so a week, with some vacation flexibility, in my nice cheap midwest small town, for slightly under $30k a year. Lucky as all hell to have it, for now. With my degrees and training, I 'should' make $80k or maybe $100k+ on the coasts. Instead, I get time to garden, volunteer, cook, and jam with friends. Awesome and a half. But, of course, it's far less efficient for most companies. Hiring 6 people and pushing them 50 or 60 hours a week is, sadly, much more efficient than having 10 people work 30 to 35. Perhaps shifting certain fixed costs (health care) off the employer might help this become an option for more people?
Parent
Re:I'd rather have 4/36 (Score:5, Interesting)
Japan's 'lost decade' (and continuing) also has a lot to do with lack of population growth. Sadly, interest-based capitalism goes hand-in-hand with growth. Japan has gone into negative population growth territory. Much of the west will follow in our lifetimes. From a green or even moderately sane perspective, the cessation of growth and consumption is a blessed and long-hoped-for event. But, economics as we know it stagnates. People get money, but they don't lend it. They don't because lending entails some risk, but, whatever you might invest in is unlikely to grow in a steady or shrinking economy.
Parent
Re:Getting Customers to leave you alone Fridays (Score:5, Insightful)
Leave the computer and phone off, if you're going to take the day off, especially if you've notified people in advance. I say if you're taking the day off, take the day off.
Parent
Re:I worked 9/80 for 4 summers (Score:5, Interesting)
As for management respecting the day -- that's like any off-day. You have to enforce it yourself. I've been asked to work on my 9/80 day, and never had a problem agreeing to it. I just swapped it for a different day. Management loved my flexibility (in when I took a day off).
Parent
Re:I worked 9/80 for 4 summers (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree, 9/80 is great. I hired on with a company about a year ago that had just switched to the 9/80 system. There were some issues as everyone adjusted, but it's been great since. I like it so much, I'd view a typical 5/40 as a negative for any future employers.
I found that I didn't miss the extra hour during the week, and the Friday off is great for sleeping in, doctor appointments, or for random things that can't be done on the weekend.
My employer doesn't typically pull people in on the off Friday, but I imagine it happens every once in awhile. Although, I'm sure this varies greatly by company.
Overall, I'd say it's nothing to be scared of as long as the entire company embraces it. It's when portions of the employees are working regular weeks and some are on 9/80 that things tend to fall apart.
Parent
Re:I worked 9/80 for 4 summers (Score:5, Informative)
And I could make a nine-day vacation on 36 hours vacation time, as long as I picked an off Friday week for the vacation.
I can only remember once I had to work on an off Friday in a couple years there. And I got the following Monday off that time.
Parent
it sucks (Score:5, Informative)
My company does it - and yes frequently we get hosed out of our day off OR have to travel on our day off. It is inconvenient to many of our customers and I spend a lot of time on my off Fridays checking my e-mail for potential issues. It is not much of a day off. We USED to have a 4-9-4 work week, where we worked 4 nine hour days and half days (4 hours) on Fridays this was AWESOME and I loved it - 9/80 is bogus IMHO
4/10 is easier (Score:5, Insightful)
You get every friday or monday off depending on the stagger. The idea of 9/80 bothers me. There is a point of no return for employees. If you are going to work like that, you should make sure and take two one hour breaks a day.
Re:4/10 is easier (Score:5, Interesting)
I did both 4/40 and 9/80, and I tell you, the first extra hour isn't that noticeable, but going from 9 to 10 hours a day sucked. It means either you arrive at 6am so that you can leave at 5. If you can't get there until 9am, have fun working till 8pm...
I'm back to working 5/40 now, and do indeed miss the 9/80 schedule. One of the best things was the regular 4-day holiday weekends. The accounting calendar was usually arranged so that Fridays off fell before Monday holidays like Memorial Day, etc.
Parent
Just a second, here... (Score:5, Funny)
... Are they hiring?
That depends... (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, my wife works a 40 hour week that's supposed to be 4 days per week, 10 hours per day. Usually that translates to 8am to 7pm daily. She say's she'd never go back to 5x8.
Unfortunately we car pool to work, so I work 8 to 7 as well. And then I usually put in 4 or 5 hours on Friday, and a few hours each on Saturday and Sunday. The difference.... You guessed it. She's in an hourly position that isn't exempt from overtime rules. I'm in a salaried position that is exempt from overtime rules. And to top it off, she makes about 20% more than I do because she is in an industry that competes to get workers. I'm in an industry that has more workers than it can afford.
All in all 4-5x9 probably works OK, and if you're in an urban area, it's 10% less time that you'll sit in traffic. Maybe more because you either be commuting early or late. If the extra hour in the work day is cutting into your sleep, your commute is way too long. If it's cutting into your TV watching, then get TiVo and watch on your new day off.
Parent
Crises (Score:5, Insightful)
If your manager pulls you in to cover a crisis, you need to demand flex time (a different day off next week) or overtime.
Or, send them an invoice from your consulting firm for about six times whatever your daily rate is.
Re:Crises (Score:5, Funny)
Or, send them an invoice from your consulting firm for about six times whatever your daily rate is.
Yeah, that way you'll have a lot of time to look for a new job.
Parent
My experience (Score:5, Informative)
I worked for the same company but different location under a flexible hour system where the only requirement was that I met the 40 hrs per week. It made things much more difficult to free up space on the weekends, but allowed me to be more available during the week.
It's just preference.
MIB (Score:5, Funny)
I love it. (Score:5, Informative)
I've worked for two consecutive companies with 9/80. At the first it was optional (but most people did it) at the second (current one) it is pretty much mandatory.
Let me tell you.... it's awesome.
Having a 3-day weekend every other week outweighs any perceived negatives. It gives you the ability to leave on a trip on a Thursday night... spend 3 days somewhere and still make it back for work without taking any vacation.
To answer your questions:
- I was wondering how this has been implemented in other companies.
For both of my companies you work 9 hours a day except the friday you work you only work 8 hours. Then you get every other friday off.
- Is your system flexible?
At the first company it was... you could choose which friday you wanted to start your 9/80 schedule on... so half of the people were gone every other friday.
At my current job it's not... everyone has the same friday off. I see the benefits of both. Personally, I really enjoyed fridays at my previous job... when (at least) half the people were gone I could get a lot of work done.
Both places I worked for have been flexible in your start time in the morning... meaning I can go in early and still get off early to get stuff done... which leads to:
- Do you find time to get personal stuff done during the week?
Yes. If I really need to get something done after work then I'll go in early. If I'm there by 7:00 then I can get off around 4:00 to 4:30... leaving plenty of time.
- Is Friday good for anything other than catching up on lost sleep?
Yes. You can use it for weekend trips like I mentioned above. Also, it's a great time to catch up around the house (mending fences, etc.). Finally, it's also a great day to get grocery shopping (and similar) done because most people are working...
I use the day a lot of different ways... and I do often sleep in a bit... but never sleep the day away!
- And perhaps most important, do your managers respect the off-Fridays, or do they pull people in on a regular basis to handle 'crises?'"
Has never happened to me. Like I said.. at my current job the friday off is mandatory. They actually turn out the lights and turn down the air-conditioning, etc. They really expect no one to be there.
But... I know my jobs are normal (I'm a research scientist at laboratories) so YMMV.
In conclusion... it can only be a good thing... go for it!
Friedmud
Re:I love it. (Score:5, Interesting)
The only issue that has ever come up is:
1) When a customer comes in, and we have to come in on our day off
and
2) Because of the increased rest on a three-day weekend, people use less vacation time, resulting in the office being virtually deserted in December.
Parent
Seriously... (Score:5, Funny)
...this is what Ask Slashdot has been reduced to? Asking how a rather small change to a weekly schedule might work out?
Future Ask Slashdots We Can Look Forward To:
Re:Seriously... (Score:5, Funny)
* "I'm thinking of switching from a soft toothbrush to a medium-soft. How has that worked out for you?"
A: You should really try one of those electric toothbrushes.
* "I'm considering moving my sock drawer from the top right to the top left drawer. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of each arrangement?
A: Have you considered moving the sock drawer to a closet in the bathroom? This would allow you to put on your socks while you are still warm instead of having to freeze your toes off on the way back to the dresser.
* "We're moving to a new home and are having a family meeting this Thursday to evaluate hanging toilet paper so that the next sheet is over versus under on the roll. I was wondering how other readers have approached this decision?"
A: Under. What kind of barbarians do you live with?
* "I'd like to set my USB to automount to a fixed drive letter when I plug it into my Windows XP laptop. I'm considering J:, P:, and possibly Q:. What do you all think? Should I look at M: as well?"
A: Hello, McFly! Use the U: drive.
Sheesh!
Parent
Re:Seriously... (Score:5, Insightful)
Under!? Over! It's closer and easier to get to! When it's under, it's right against the wall and harder to grab at. Plus, it's easier to roll down than up, so if you can't see the end, you can get it easier.
Seriously, what's this world coming to?
Parent
3x12.5 is even better! (Score:5, Interesting)
90% of the employees voluntarily choose 9/80 (Score:5, Interesting)
My employer offers optional 9/80 schedules. I estimate that 90% of the employees voluntarily choose 9/80. It is great to have at lest 26 three day weekends every year. When holidays fall on Monday, you may get a 4 day weekend.
The off-Friday is well respected by management. The managers generally don't come in either.
An off-Friday is a great time for banking, appointments, the start of vacation, volunteering in your kids' school, etc.
Most people who choose the 5/40 schedule do so because they need to be home early to meet kids at the school bus or because the spouse works a regular schedule and they want to match schedules.
Flexibility is always good. We have core hours from 10:00 to 3:00. Some people come in very early and leave at 3:00 to minimize the time kids are home alone. It can save a lot of child care costs. Others like me regularly come in at 10:00 and leave at 7:00.
Trade-offs of a 9/80 work week (Score:5, Informative)
The company I work for just switched to a 9/80 a few months ago. We're a little different since we have a schedule A and a schedule B, so only 1/2 the people are at work any given Friday. It's had some ups & downs.
Here's what I see as the positives:
1. Having a 4 day work week every other week rocks!
2. Getting paid on the Friday where I work 5 days makes it all the more bearable.
3. Easier to get chores, errands done since everyone else is at work.
4. I get more work done during the last hour of every 9 hour day than any other hour.
Here's the negatives:
1. It's a PITA to schedule meetings.
2. Sometimes I travel and it seems to always fall on a week where I'm supposed to be off that Friday.
3. Customers are annoyed because they're not on the same schedule and aren't understanding that it won't be until Monday before I get back to them.
4. I feel like I have less time to get work done since every other week I only work 4 days.
5. More free time means I spend more money.
6. Getting to work while it's dark & leaving when it's dark is depressing.
I work 9/80 (Score:5, Insightful)
Pros:
Cons:
9/80 is best when paired with a flex time schedule so that you can move around hours when you need to. The off friday gives you an option to tell your boss "i'll work more these days or just come in friday" if you want to take a different day off instead of the off friday. Coming in on the off friday usually means the office is dead. That can be good and bad. Some people like not having anyone around because they normally get interrupted too much when people are at the office. Other people hate it because there's nobody else to kick the bucket with.
If you find you are normally working more than 8 hours everyday, 9/80 is actually a good option because you will have a decent excuse for not coming in on the off fridays and you will have to work 9 hours most days anyway. If you find you are working even on the weekends, 9/80 will have no impact on your hours.
As a single guy, I prefer 9/80. But I do know some family types that prefer the 5/40 since they really need the consistent 8 hour days to keep their family schedules synced. At first you will loath the 9 hour days because that extra hour is bigger than it looks. After a while though 9 hours will seem like nothing and the working fridays will seem really short.
I work whatever hours I want (Score:5, Interesting)
The company measures my performance by what I get done.
Re:Lost sleep? (Score:5, Funny)
If it does, just eat through lunch.
Nonsense! Why would lunch be for eating?
Parent
Re:Lost sleep? (Score:5, Funny)
I prefer to lunch through work myself, ymmv.
Parent
Re:Lost sleep? (Score:5, Funny)
just eat through lunch
This statement is baffling on so many levels.
Parent
Re:Lost sleep? (Score:5, Insightful)
not baffling, depressing. That working through lunch has become a standard...
Parent
Re:Sound better then 5/80 (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently, your job sucks.
Parent
80 hours (Score:5, Funny)
I already work 80 hours.
Oh wait, 9 days. Ok, I see what you mean now. I thought you meant 5.
Parent
Re:80 hours (Score:5, Funny)
I have a system where I only work 6 half days.... 12hrs each day... sigh.
Parent
Re:80 hours (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:80 hours (Score:5, Insightful)
80 on a usual week, 100 on a bad week and 60 on a good week.
80 hours for nine days? Slackers."
OUCH!! Why would you (or anyone else) do that to themselves? I hope, at least, you are getting paid at least straight time for every one of those OT hours...??
If not, you are just killing yourself and robbing yourself of valuable hours of your life.
That's why I will ONLY work hourly....put it in a contract, I will work when needed...but, I will not work an hour for free. My time is valuable, and I will get my bill rate for every hour worked wherever I work. Doing this way...makes them also think twice about asking if they need you or not for OT. This way...I also don't have a problem with working hours around personal time off. Even if W2 hourly, you just usually have to get avg. 8 hours a day for the pay period, so if you need a day off...swing hours around the rest of the days in the billing period.
The best is when doing corp to corp 1099...where you work as you wish generally. Don't wanna work 40 hours that week? Don't. Want to work 60 the next...ok.
Seriously...I just have to believe salary is for suckers. They expect you to work over if 'needed'...but, do they happily let you leave early when your work is done? Hmm....I didn't think so.
And you can do it W2 too....with benefits if you just know to negotiate it up front with them...if that is the route you'd rather go.
I'll never work for free again...
Parent
Re:feh (Score:5, Funny)
Parent