Slashdot Log In
Portables Without Cameras?
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri May 01, 2009 09:16 PM
from the why-does-my-toothbrush-have-a-camera dept.
from the why-does-my-toothbrush-have-a-camera dept.
crankyspice writes "I work routinely in environments where a camera cannot physically be present (e.g., federal court), which really limits what I can carry with me. For instance, I'm a Mac guy, but there's no way to order a MacBook without a built-in webcam (which I've never used on the machines I've owned that have had one). Ditto the iPhone. I'm left with a BlackBerry 8830 and the bottom rung of the [W|L]Intel portables. Even then, when I ordered a Dell Mini 9, I had to wait more than a month because I specified no webcam when I placed the order. This is a relatively common (government, law, sensitive corporate environments) requirement; what have other Slashdotters done? Disabling the camera with a script or somesuch won't convince the $12/hour security guard that there's no camera. How can one easily find portable devices without a built-in camera?"
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Step back a bit... (Score:5, Funny)
Disabling the camera with a script or somesuch won't convince the $12/hour security guard that there's no camera. How can one easily find portable devices without a built-in camera?
Simple, non-technical solution: just hire $10/hour security guards!
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:4, Interesting)
Not necessarily better!
I've seen many crazy things to do w/ "security" guards, in all regions of the U.S. and various contexts (courthouses, airports, etc.) A friend of mine had his P38 (old military style) can opener taken off his keychain in the Bucks County Courthouse (PA); it's hard to believe that it's (much) more dangerous as a slashing implement than most of the other keys on the same keychain. And the keychain itself could be used to bludgeon someone. And the strap of my messenger bag could have quite satisfyingly throttled that simpering, simple-headed nogoodnik of a "security guard" in the first place.
True: walked into a parole office in New Jersey with a fellow about to start parole. The lazy, snickering security guard spotted us after we'd both entered, through the (unattended) flimsy, Soviet-style metal-detector that probably had guts cheaper than the kind you see guys sweeping down the beach. The new parolee, who was carrying nothing, was asked to actually go through the device. I was not (had to ask special) -- even though I was carrying a bag that could have had a few dozen grenades, or mice, or whatever. Perhaps it was because I was wearing a Suit of Hypnosis and a Tie of Knotting.
Guard soon went back to guarding his GameBoy in the corner 20 or more feet from the entrance.
timothy
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
A friend of mine had his P38 (old military style) can opener taken off his keychain in the Bucks County Courthouse (PA)
A P38 can opener, for those of you who don't know, is quite possibly the least expensive can-opener possible. It could be accurately be described as a "hinged razor-blade."
It's really no surprise at all that the security guard wouldn't let that pass. Especially as they're made of stamped aluminum and probably worth about .10 cents each.
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Interesting)
More than once I have asked "why do you have this rule or that" and gotten the response: "Because the boss must be on crack or something".
As for the cameras issue. That is legit. Not only do courts sometimes deal with cases where identities must be protected (I.e. It's bad enough little Sandy has to testify against her Daddy for molesting her, but putting her picture on the net would make it a whole lot worse) but there are other "institutions" that have vested interest in being photograph free. I.e. Many titty Bars ban Cams to protect the day jobs and church membership of part time strippers as well as the Senate seat of tonight's #1 tipper.
As for cam less devices. Nothing wrong with having a low end device. I.e. In a courtroom, You don't need a high frame rate or surround sound. Even my lowly old Dell Latitude D620 is overkill for legitimate courtroom usage.
Phones are a bigger problem. It's getting real hard to find phones with Email, 3G and WiFi without a built in Camera.
I'm shocked nobody has capitalized on this to release "Cam-less mods" for those Blackberrys where the cam can be hidden and crippled by changing the user removable back panel for one without the lens opening.
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the cameras issue. That is legit. Not only do courts sometimes deal with cases where identities must be protected (I.e. It's bad enough little Sandy has to testify against her Daddy for molesting her, but putting her picture on the net would make it a whole lot worse) but there are other "institutions" that have vested interest in being photograph free. I.e. Many titty Bars ban Cams to protect the day jobs and church membership of part time strippers as well as the Senate seat of tonight's #1 tipper.
The ability to effectively enforce a ban on cameras is something that's only possible for the current relative sliver of history. What are those organizations going to do when technology allows virtually anyone to covertly record what they see through their eyes (organic or cybernetic)? They should start thinking about that now, because in the not-too-distant future they will have no choice but to allow it.
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that in the top hundred by actual attacks committed, or just estimated by some politician to be worthy of using to scare people. Do you know how many terrorist attacks there have been on US soil between 1961 and 2003 ?
7
And several of those were cases of one man with a mission, which we normally call "criminals" not terrorists. So explain the top 100 terrorist targets please. You have way more attacks in schools than you do terrorist incidents.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm [state.gov]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Or better yet, get a piece of trim tape that matches closely to the color of the laptop bezel. Cut it to match and look stock.
When asked, say "If I ordered one with a camera, that's where it would go" If you use an automotive class trim or striping tape it will not easily come off or peel at the edges.
it's very VERY easy to outwit $12.00 an hour security.
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't about outwitting security. That's the easy part. The real problem is if you get caught in a high security facility with a camera, it's your job and probably worse. If you add to that the fact that you were actively trying to hide it (with "automotive class trim") you might be accused of espionage.
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Funny)
Morning, I'd like to introduce you to Mr Warranty.
Oh, you two have already met and broken up.
OK then forget I ever spoke.
Parent
Re:Just disable the camera... epoxy (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Step back a bit... (Score:4, Interesting)
Ah, not, that's not true.
You can not tell a camera's electronics from a cell phone's electronics. None of this stuff can be distinguished on Xray. Even a cam embedded in a laptop can't be distinguished from the other electronics in the device.
They see your cell when you go thru the scanner (you put the phone in the basket before going thru).
They have been trained to look for cameras built into computer bezels (even tho 98% of them face the computer user, not the courtroom).
They do it with eyeballs, not Xrays.
Parent
Sounds like you've covered it pretty well (Score:5, Insightful)
I've just cruised through this list of netbooks [amazon.com] over at Amazon. It returned just over 5,000 results and I can't find one without a camera. I'll keep looking but this leads me to believe that you may just need to look at a regular laptop. And the wait is probably going to exist otherwise because you are obviously looking for something that is just outside the norm for these.
This discussion [c0t0d0s0.org] from last September didn't turn up anything, except the Mini 9 - which you already mention. Though they do bring up one option that I think is the best bet; to open up the case, yank the camera and fill in the spot where it went. It can't be that hard. If some guy can fit an LCD behind the apple logo [slashdot.org] - you can get the camera out.
The phone issue I find being brought up going back to 2005 and it's probably older - this seemed to offer hope [yahoo.com] and mentions a few models but it's old and I'm not sure how stuff would have carried forward. Most stuff I find mentions Blackberry which you already have. So my guess is that there is no treasure trove of camera free devices that you have missed. You are just in a tough spot.
Re:Sounds like you've covered it pretty well (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Sounds like you've covered it pretty well (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Get an OQO (Score:5, Informative)
Get an OQO. Fits in a pocket, full windows xp/vista. Mobile broadband built right in. Extended batteries for hours of use.
http://www.oqo.com/ [oqo.com]
Parent
Re:Sounds like you've covered it pretty well (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know what both you and the original question asker are talking about.
I just went onto Dell's website and looked at the first range of laptops that I would ever consider for myself and NONE of the models have webcams? Why?
Because I selected 'Enterprise / Corporate' on the first page and not 'Home - give-me-all-your-crap-that-only-the-children-would-use'. :)
Come to think of it, I've only ever owned one laptop with a webcam, that that was back in the day (>5 years ago) when the only way to get a decent 3d card in a laptop was to go for the home models, since then none of my laptops have them simply because when I buy a laptop I want one designed to work, not look good, etc.
See:
Dell Examples [dell.com]
HP Examples [hp.com]
BTW, pretty much any business model laptop will include a model without webcam, for the exact reason raised by the original questioner.
Parent
Re:Sounds like you've covered it pretty well (Score:5, Funny)
Don't worry, I'll do it for you!
Parent
dude.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer is simple. Break the camera device. It won't break your computer or portable. . it will break the camera.
Make it so it is obvious when you point it out.
Re:dude.. (Score:5, Informative)
A sticker over the lens will usually keep the casual inspector at bay...
Parent
Re:dude.. (Score:5, Funny)
Make a sticker with Certified by and Do Not Remove Under Penalty of Law on it. Scribble a name and date on it.
Parent
Re:dude.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Reminds me of when I worked for the Saskatchewan government. Every piece of hardware has a "Property of GOS" sticker on it, with an item # and barcode. The various people (Crown prosecutors, etc.) who needed to disable the camera on their provided phone/blackberry/etc. would simply have that sticker over the camera lens.
Parent
Re:dude.. (Score:4, Insightful)
A sticker over the lens will usually keep the casual inspector at bay...
Except, on the off chance that they do find out it's still functional, he could be in trouble. Since he clearly has no interest in ever using the camera, it would seem like painting over the lense with black paint would be the easiest way to convincingly break it.
Parent
Re:dude.. (Score:5, Funny)
I always just cover it with my thumb when I open the lid to show them that there's no camera. It's foolproof!
Parent
These places should do what others do (Score:5, Informative)
Re:These places should do what others do (Score:5, Insightful)
Many high security establishments, both government and commercial, realize that they can't stop technology without serious concessions. What some do are to put a special tamper-proof tag over the camera. Then they just inspect the tag when you exit and, if tampered, confiscate the device until it can be validated.
What good would confiscating the device after the fact do? If these are really "high security" establishments as you say, wouldn't they be concerned that you might "tamper" with the tag, use the camera to photograph or record video of sensitive materials or discussions, then encrypt and transmit said photos or videos to a far-off website, all before leaving the establishment? Confiscating the device at that point would be like closing the barn door after the horses escaped.
Parent
Re:These places should do what others do (Score:5, Insightful)
Places that need really good security tend to have it provided by Marines. ;)
Parent
Re:These places should do what others do (Score:5, Insightful)
One would think. I used to work at a major defense contractor that dealt with nuclear materials. There was a five foot high fence around the facility and I knew people who had jumped it (without triggering a security alert) when they had forgotten their badges. Oh, and cars used to get stolen out of the "secure" parking lot on a regular basis.
Parent
keep digging, Watson (Score:3, Interesting)
Choosing an option without a webcam isn't why you had to wait for your Mini 9. When I ordered one (64GB HDD, Ubuntu, 2GB of RAM, no webcam) I got it inside of a week. Chances are the reason you had to wait was because you chose a common configuration that everybody else was ordering.
You could also look at a larger screen size of a notebook. Again with Dells, you can quite easily specify no webcam option. It's actually a charged upgrade for them to get the webcam. I'm fairly sure that other manufacturers can also sell you a notebook without a webcam, but HP doesn't sell a consumer laptop with Linux preinstalled. :)
No kidding... (Score:4, Funny)
but there's no way to order a MacBook without (Score:4, Informative)
military solution (Score:5, Informative)
The US govt bought some macbooks without cameras. I don't know if Apple removed them before selling to them, or if they had a 3rd party doing the removal process. What I DO know is they were manufactured with the cameras in them, and removed after production and packaging.
Re:military solution (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
This will get interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
There's someone who's implanting a camera to replace a glass eye. With the singularity and associated transhumanism, this will get more complicated.
Re:This will get interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Spray Paint and Super Glue (Score:3, Informative)
I have a similar working situation. Here, we petitioned to be allowed to bring in devices with cameras. The seriously non-technical solution we arrived at is to spray paint over the lens with the color of the case, let it dry, then superglue a piece of clear plastic over the spray paint. The judges approved of it (and did it with their own devices) and security was notified to be aware of this modification.
The only issue? Warranty. The solution? Letter from the judge and from the head of security stating why the procedure was necessary, that to their knowledge the manufacturer of the product has no alternatives without cameras, and to please perform a warranty repair on all portions of the device except the camera. Several of us have taken our devices for repairs. Dell cried like a little girl, but was finally convinced. Apple said no problem, but the camera is not covered. Sony said piss off and die. So, your mileage may vary.
Nevertheless, it works, and a curious security guard just has to pry at it to realize it is not coming off.
$12/hour security guard (Score:5, Insightful)
> Disabling the camera with a script or somesuch won't convince the $12/hour security guard that there's no camera.
It also would not convince me.
I'm amazed at how many say "Put some tape over it" (Score:5, Insightful)
Or paint, or plastic, or whatever.
Do you really think the guys he works with are so stupid that somebody won't eventually say "hey, is that covering up a camera?" then peel it back and discover the camera there? And then the guy in question will get fired and probably face legal charges for knowingly bringing a functional camera into the place.
You're best off just getting something without a camera, really. If you absolutely have to get a device with a camera, find a technician who will physically remove the device for you. The feds do not appreciate people who think they can half-ass security measures and get away with it.
Re:I'm amazed at how many say "Put some tape over (Score:5, Funny)
The feds do not appreciate people who think they can half-ass security measures
I know! They get really threatened by people who try to outdo them at their own job.
Parent
Silly question (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a silly question.
For the Mac, take it to the Apple store, and ask a tech to open the case. He can remove the camera, control board, etc, etc....
For most PC laptops, the same can be done by any retailer with a tech on site.
For the phones, it may be a little harder to get an authorized tech to open it. You may have to ask the store who is a local authorized repair tech.
If you're not worried about the warranty, do it your self. It's not very hard. If you do it carefully, you can replace the camera later, and if you have to return it for warranty work, they won't be able to tell.
In any of those cases, I recommend keeping the removed parts, should you want to replace them later.
Another option may be to "decorate" the case. Home Depot sells glue backed foil for sealing air conditioning ducts. No, not "duct tape", it's foil tape. Some have written marks, and some don't. I'd go with the unmarked ones. Carefully line the edges of your display with the foil, so it doesn't look ugly. Voila, no camera.
Or option 3.. Bust out the camera with a drill or punch, and fill the hole with a dummy plug or epoxy.
Since you're in a real security environment, I'd go with options 1 or 3. Option 2 can open you up to liability. Since the camera still exists, you're just hiding it, you could in theory uncover it, use it, and then cover it again before you leave the facility.
I used to work in a few pseudo-secure facilities. Their rules were that no recording devices of any sort were allowed on the premises. They were datacenters, so the most I could really get was a picture of what other providers were using. Really, that could prove embarrassing if say I came out of an Equinix facility, showing that the IBM enterprise eBusiness managed hosting service was just a mess of desktops and rackmount machines, badly cabled, in partially filled racks at best. Since they advertise that they have their own facilities, even knowing that they are simply a few cabinets in a cage buried in an Equinix facility would be embarrassing.
I've seen quite a few "enterprise" providers, who run on a few desktop machines jammed into a cabinet. Then again, I've seen even more "enterprise" providers with beautiful setups. It's funny, their customers never get to see the real setup, but a tech who is there to work for another company gets the full view. :)
Anyways, I used to carry cameras, my cell with a camera, or whatever I wanted in. It was a simple matter of burying it so deep in my laptop bag that the security guards wouldn't want to dig through all of it. In the same environments, they require property passes to remove equipment. If you have enough stuff moving, you can move extra stuff too. I've accidentally removed more than the pass showed. It wasn't intentional, it's just that we overlooked a piece, and noticed when we cross-checked the list later. It would have been a lot harder to walk in, and then walk out with just one piece of undocumented equipment.
I've had the same happen with the TSA. They want to search, so I tell them "Go ahead, but you have to put it back like you found it." They unzipper a few compartments, see that they're jammed with cables for various purposes (I come prepared), and then just wipe it down so they can do their attempt at detecting explosives.
On the TSA explosives testing (as I digress)... A friend was driving me to the airport to catch a flight back home. We had already arranged with another friend to go to a local shooting range. I burnt off several hundred rounds of 9mm, .45 ACP and 12 Gauge, which means I handled plenty of ammunition and the residue was all over my hands, arms, face, and clothes. I also handled my carry on (obviously). I didn't really think about i
Mobile phone cameras (Score:4, Interesting)
I think the #1 reason its so hard to find a phone with no camera is that the carriers would rather you bought one with a camera (since they can up sell stuff to go with that camera)
I cant believe that there isn't enough demand for camera phones from consumers for manufacturers to continue to include cameras (being that cameras have a non-zero cost)
Cameras were banned at my last job (Score:5, Funny)
Cameras were banned at my last job. In fact I had to sign several different layers of paperwork saying I wouldn't bring in any cameras, storage devices, blah blah blah.
What was the first thing they issued me?
A cell phone with a camera in it.
Same problem/Different Technology (Score:4, Interesting)
Needless to say, productivity went way down.
I work in the Court system (Score:4, Informative)
Each court is different. You have to know your court.
First, if you are an attorney, or go to court regularly as a non-court employee (attorney's assistant, expert witness, etc), then you should have at least one non-camera phone. If you can, try getting a phone you can just pop a SIM chip into and out of easily. (Dunno how well that works in the US -- my US carrier was always Verizon, no SIMs.) Or just go Blackberry (that's what I have, and for that reason).
Second, if you have a reason for needing your laptop this should not be a problem. The prohibition against camera's is not a universal and absolute prohibition.
If you're an attorney, speak with the judge for your case. Using a Macbook/MBP as part of your trial is fine. Explain to him your situation, explain to him any added measures you will take to cover the camera (such as tape), and he will let you take it through. (If he does not, well, you're an attorney -- I shouldn't have to tell you how to fix it.)
If you're not an attorney, but are working for/helping one, then speak with the attorney who is your main contact. Explain the situation and offer multiple ways in which the court may be appeased (such as tape over the camera).
If the judge knows who has the cameras and something then gets out, there will be no problem. The full wrath of the court can be directed at you for breaching the court's trust.
If you truly think you NEED the laptop while in court for something other than the case, why? Either you work there, and then you simply need to ask your supervisor/employer for permission, or you don't and there's no reason for you to be chilling in the courthouse browsing the internets and Twittering with Ashton. (And if you're media -- seriously? No excuse for that, either.)
As for other non-judicial sensitive areas, you're on your own. If I ran a security team at a secure business location, I'd likely not even allow in mobiles to begin with. Regardless, your rights are much more limited in private situations.
Of course, you could always use the advice of some Slashdotters here. First, since Windows is a pain, either get an Apple service center to remove the camera (or get a Linux machine with no camera). Second, go Windows with no camera.
Oh, and as for the Dell Mini 9 -- if you are truly an Apple guy, and you get one of these, you better Hackintosh it. I did mine, and it's fantastic.
Good luck, and have fun.
- Pacer
Let an Apple tech physically disable the camera (Score:5, Informative)
FYI: A similar action can be taken for hand held devices such as an Apple iPhone.
BTW: You can still use an external camera/microphone for services such as iChat on a MacBook where the built in devices have been removed. When permitted, plugging in an external camera/microphone will temporarily restore such capability. Moreover, by physically removing such external devices when they are not in use, you can better control them. :-)
So buy your MacBook, have a Apple Certified technician remove the offending components, and if needed get a letter of volatility. Q.E.D.
Talk to security (Score:4, Insightful)
Since it seems you've investigated the technical side of the problem do a little leg work on the human side. Talk to one of the security guards and find out who they report to since ultimately that is who your solution must be agreeable to. Explain the situation and ask what measures would be necessary to take in a device with a disabled camera. You can look at possibly using a case, skin or just a sticker that would obscure the camera just make sure that whoever the security guards report to OKs it.
Then the next obstacle is getting the guards to understand that it has been OKd. Assuming that there is probably a small number of guards that you'll deal with get to know them and preemptively bring the subject up to them, show them the steps you've done to disable the use of the camera and let them know you've talked to their boss about it.
Be prepared for them to still balk at the idea and have equipment around that you can use if they wont let the disabled camera pass. Hopefully at this point they will ask their superior about it and he will verify that he gave his OK and next time you'll be able to take your better toys in with you.
Just keep in mind that the security guards are just trying to do their job to the best of their ability. Things that will draw their attention and almost assuredly lead to your and your disabled camera being turned away/confiscated are any attempts to sneak something past them and any attitude at all if they ask about it. And by all means never wait until discovery/discussion of the device would interrupt court proceedings as that is just a good way to piss of a judge and get yourself found in contempt.
Re: (Score:3)
A cheap camera on a cellphone actually is a good thing. It's a camera that won't be in the bottom of the glove box with dead batteries (or, in earlier days, expired film) when you need it (e.g. after an accident, or when corrupt cops are putting some minority "in his place.")
It's really quite a shame that certain environments need to restrict their presence.