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Whither America's Technological Edge?

Posted by Cliff on Mon Dec 16, 2002 04:16 PM
from the stuff-to-think-about dept.
baldass_newbie asks: "Ben Stein wrote an editorial titled, 'How to Ruin American Enterprise'. To me, technological innovation is a big outward sign of a successful economy. Sometimes it appears like the U.S. is losing its edge in technology. Well, I was wondering what the Slashdot community at large thinks is wrong (or right) with the U.S. and technological innovation?" The article deals less with technology and more with the society on which said innovation is based, and the problems that may bring it down around our collective ears. Give the article a read, and share your thoughts on whether or not you think it's an accurate assessment on the current and future situation of America's technological advantage.
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  • by ras_b (193300) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:19PM (#4901360)
    Every time some new, cool tech gadget comes out here, i talk to my friend from Tokyo and he tells me he had it a year ago.
  • Money (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kkith (551310) <kkith@[ ]oo.com ['yah' in gap]> on Monday December 16 2002, @04:20PM (#4901372) Journal
    Money is the cause AND downfall of innovation.

    Look at Microsoft, RIAA. They make too much money keeping technology in check.

    But then again, competiton (for more money) leads to innovation as well.

    Maybe it is the balance between the two that is required.
  • Well (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 16 2002, @04:21PM (#4901387)
    To me, technological innovation is a big outward sign of a successful economy.

    Actually, increased productivity is a big outward sign of a successful economy. Innovation (not necessarily technical) allows us to do more with less and, as such, is a driver of productivity.
    • Re:Well by agvaughan (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:18PM
    • Re:Well by jpmorgan (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @08:32PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Stein is talking in generalities. . . (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Salgak1 (20136) <salgak@@@speakeasy...net> on Monday December 16 2002, @04:22PM (#4901390) Homepage
    . . .that, while well-founded, don't quite strike home. Not everyone can write kernels, develop new languages, create new products, etc. As long as there is a creative minority, innovating at the usual furious pace, we don't have a real problem. The problem, as **I** see it, is a growing divide between the Tech Elite and Everyone Else. Sort of a Morlocks and Eloi situation. . . .while we're out being technological innovators and implementors, the schools, etc, are pushing out more and more marketeers, lawyers, admin assistants, MCSEs, etc. . .
  • Translation, please? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 16 2002, @04:22PM (#4901392)
    Could some one translate this into Democrat for me please? I think I agree, but I'm not sure...
  • Metafilter discussion (Score:4, Informative)

    by X_Bones (93097) <danorz13.yahoo@com> on Monday December 16 2002, @04:22PM (#4901395) Homepage Journal
    MetaFilter had an interesting discussion on this article a couple of days ago. Link here [metafilter.com].
  • bueller by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:22PM
  • USPTO... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Cyclopedian (163375) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:23PM (#4901400) Journal
    Look no further than this monstronity that very nearly approves everything in sight. Brainless patents and lawyering have held up innovation far worse than actual technological competitiveness.

    -Cyc

  • Well, duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Skyshadow (508) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:23PM (#4901402) Homepage
    C'mon, this is obvious:

    How long can America keep pumping out students whose test scores are in the cellar for industrial nations and expect to maintain an edge in technology? As it stands, a lot of our brains are already imported from India and China.

    I live in CA, which should stand as a dire warning to the rest of the country: They limit their property taxes, their schools go underfunded, and as a result California natives largely end up working to repair the cars and wash the floors of the well-educated from elsewhere.

    The US needs to get serious about education, and fast. With the tech boom and the world shinking as it is, this is a really bad time to be stupid.

    • Re:Well, duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MagikSlinger (259969) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:30PM (#4901506) Homepage Journal
      The US needs to get serious about education, and fast. With the tech boom and the world shinking as it is, this is a really bad time to be stupid.

      It's not just the government. American parents pay lip service to education, but don't really set either a good example nor push their children to excel. I remember in school the classes always had a mix of real poor performers to really good students. The difference was not the teachers, but their home-life and parents. Parents get the kind of education system they want. If they don't care, don't expect the government to care either.

      [Insert your favorite bash to blame for this here]

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Well, duh. by Niles_Stonne (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:00PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Well, duh. by invenustus (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:39PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • by aquarian (134728) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:31PM (#4901509)
      The real problem with CA schools is bureaucratic inertia and waste. LA, for example, has approximately one administrator for each teacher on its payroll. And guess whose salary is higher?
      [ Parent ]
    • I think I'd rather.... by Russ Nelson (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:42PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Well, duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ryu2 (89645) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:45PM (#4901629) Homepage Journal
      I do agree that education is the root cause, but test scores, etc. are only one part of the story. I'm an American, but I've spent a lot of time in many Asian countries, and have worked with many people over there. The educational system there emphasizes discipline, conformity, rote practice and drilling and unity, in accordance with societal values that traditionally pervase Asian societies.

      This may sound good on paper, but there's a sad human side to it as well, in the form of students spending days and nights outside of class in outside of school courses, known as juku in Japan or hagwon in Korea, in a furious rat-race attempt to succeed. All emphasis is placed on getting into the top schools, to preserve the all-so-important face prevalent in Asian society. It's no coincidence that the suicide rate amongst teenagers in Asia is much higher than the general population over there.

      Corporal punishment is practiced in classrooms. The curriculum is homogenous across all schools and teaching method is rote memorization and practice, practice, and more practice, which does not encourage the development of free thinking, and all this talked about "innovation" is generally spawned at the industrial rather than the academic level.

      While Asia is indeed impressive, all this comes at a price, and blindly following their methods is. IMHO, not the way for the US to go.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Well, duh. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by leviramsey (248057) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:19PM (#4901810) Journal

        Those societal things are often why the various Asian nations tend not to make advances in science, medicine, and technology, though they may be the ones who best capitalize on it. Innovation, by definition, requires challenging the old order, the hierarchy. Confucian-type values make it very difficult to take this first step.

        How many major, reasonably innovative (ie not a clone of Outlook) pieces of computer software (to take an example) are currently or were designed by an Asian (not an Asian American)? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Now how many are being coded by Asians (using design directives from non-Asians)?

        This may sound horribly racist, but that is not the intent. If anything, it's pointing out a tension that exists between Confucianism and innovation. The fact that many persons "of Asian extraction" but who grew up in the West are great innovators indicates that it is not an issue of brain capacity; it is an issue of culturally-influenced psychology.

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Well, duh. by marshac (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:31PM
      • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Things wrong with US Schools (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Codex The Sloth (93427) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:05PM (#4901770)
      * Handing out laptops [mysanantonio.com]to everyone is not the answer -- most of those countries that beat US schools don't have access to current books, let alone laptops.

      * The internet will not teach your children -- while it's true there is a fountain of knowledge at your fingertips, there's a ocean full of crap to sift though.

      * Stop focussing so much money on organized sports when your school is graduating illiterates.

      * Kids using Powerpoint [detnews.com] is not the answer. Unless the question is -- How do we raise a nation of Marketing drones!
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Well, duh. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by FatRatBastard (7583) <acentofanti@yaho[ ]om ['o.c' in gap]> on Monday December 16 2002, @05:19PM (#4901806) Homepage
      I live in CA, which should stand as a dire warning to the rest of the country: They limit their property taxes, their schools go underfunded...

      Bullshit. There's a lot wrong with California public education, but underfunding isn't one of them [reason.com]. California public schools spent $9,267.00 per student for the education of its kindergarten through high school. That's a LOT of money per kid (you can send your kid to a top flight private school for about half), and most of it is pissed away by the bureaucracy. You don't cure a shopaholic by giving them more money, and you don't solve the education funding "problem" by giving them more money either.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Well, duh. by TheCodeFoundry (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:41PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by Lee164 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:08PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by dzym (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:26PM
      • Re:Well, duh. by ParamonKreel (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:26PM
      • Re:Well, duh. by El_Nofx (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:46PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by Arandir (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:53PM
      • Re:Well, duh. by KludgeGrrl (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:38PM
        • Re:Well, duh. by Arandir (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:10AM
    • Schools intentionally make people stupid! by benzapp (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @06:58PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by demonbug (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:05PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by altairmaine (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:33PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by RalphSlate (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @11:58PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by jgardn (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:06AM
    • Re:Well, duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Skyshadow (508) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:50PM (#4901653) Homepage
      Your solution is to raise property taxes in an area where real estate is already prohibitively expensive? Discouraging people from buying isn't a good idea...

      Bullshit.

      What you're actually seeing is yet another example of my parents' generation (the boomers) once again thoughtlessly gorging themselves at the expense of their children.

      They run up huge debt rather than pay higher taxes. They extend the pyramid scheme that is social security so they can benefit at their children's expense. And they underfund the educational system so they can live in a slightly larger house than they otherwise would.

      The CA system only really benefits people who already own homes, not new home buyers. So, it's just another example of our parents living at our expense.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Well, duh. by jazman_777 (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:28PM
      • Re:Well, duh. by CVaneg (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:37PM
        • Re:Well, duh. by grmoc (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:26AM
        • Re:Well, duh. by grmoc (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:31AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Well, duh. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sbeitzel (33479) on Monday December 16 2002, @07:20PM (#4903046) Homepage Journal
        You're missing the best part about the California system. Now, it's true that what Proposition 13 did was make it so that the state can't reappraise the property until it is sold or improved (I'm fuzzy on this, but essentially it means that if you build a new room onto the back of your house, they can reappraise, but if you just knock out a wall in between kitchen and dining room, they can't), so this means that long-term property holders get the tax burden shifted away from them and onto new owners.

        The brilliant part is that although this was sold to the electorate as protecting granny in her old house, the "people" it really protects are the business landlords. Most companies don't own their buildings, they lease them long term. So when a business relocates, the owner of the space hasn't changed and the property doesn't get reappraised. Does this rock or what?

        This means that the business that's giving people two communities over jobs ('cause the people can't afford to live across the street from the office) isn't paying property taxes (via increased rent to the landlord) to the community whose infrastructure (roads, electrical & phone grid, sewers, water, etc.) it's impacting. Or at least, the taxes it is paying are adjusted to property values as of 30 years ago and not current values.

        Some places responded to this with payroll taxes, but that's an even thornier issue than property taxes. What should happen is that the people who benefit from the infrastructure should pay to support it. But what is happening is that the people who pay for the infrastructure are mostly people who haven't yet had the opportunity to derive maximal benefit from it, while the long-term benefits are going to people who haven't been paying their fair share.
        [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Well, duh. by KagakuNinja (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:40PM
    • Re:Well, duh. by thogard (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:33PM
    • Re:I live in CA, too by stanmann (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @10:04AM
    • 8 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Excuse me while I whore for Karma by IIRCAFAIKIANAL (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:23PM
  • by MagikSlinger (259969) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:24PM (#4901423) Homepage Journal

    Give the article a read, and share your thoughts

    But that violates the /. tradition of posting your thoughts and never reading the article! Heck, some members don't even think about what they're posting.

  • Innovation? by Jeremiah Cornelius (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:24PM
    • Re:Innovation? by cbuskirk (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:49PM
  • Ben , ben ... who cares by ultraslide (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:25PM
    • Re:Ben , ben ... who cares (Score:5, Informative)

      by jgalun (8930) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:52PM (#4901673) Homepage
      Poor Ben Stein.

      Born and raised in privelage then appointed to work for Nixon as an economic advisor. Soon thereafter we had the worst economy since the depression.


      I don't know if it's fair to blame the Nixon recession on conservative economics. LBJ had left Nixon with massive military spending on a war in Vietnam and new Great Society spending. And then the Arab nations began their oil boycott.

      All three of these factors led to massive inflation (massive spending on the military; massive spending on domestic programs; more young people in Vietnam and fewer young people in the work force; and a rising price of oil, a key price factor in many products). In response, Nixon instituted price ceilings. NOTE: Price ceilings are not a conservative, free-market response to inflation. It is a response generally associated with the left-wing, in fact.

      More specifically, blaming Ben Stein for the Nixon recession is foolish - Ben Stein was a speechwriter in the Nixon Administration, not an economic policy advisor.
      [ Parent ]
    • Attack the messenger by Zopilote (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:55PM
    • Win Ben Stein's Money by gnarled (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:25PM
    • ... and worst of all ... by mikosullivan (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:53PM
    • More of the same by Zopilote (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:03PM
    • 7 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • increase even more the number of lawyers by kedi (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:25PM
  • One of the biggest problems by Alethes (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:25PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • School (Score:5, Interesting)

    by seanadams.com (463190) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:25PM (#4901433) Homepage
    7) Encourage a mass culture that spits on intelligence and study and instead elevates drug use, coolness through sex and violence, and contempt for school.

    This IMHO is the big one. I went to school in England until about age 12, and then came back to a private school in California. Overnight, I went from doing trig, chemistry, latin, greek, french, to gluing fucking popsicle sticks together. I kid you not, our schools are WAY behind the rest of the world.

    If you're an American parent, PLEASE either ship your kids over to Europe, or home school them yourself. American society is way too fucked up to allow for anyone to get a decent education. You would not believe the social pressure - I remember it well, and I had to fight it tooth and nail in order to succeed.

    • Re:School (Score:5, Interesting)

      by IamTheRealMike (537420) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:40PM (#4901583) Homepage
      trig, chemistry, latin, greek, french, to gluing fucking popsicle sticks together,

      Wow. You must have gone to an old-skool school :) I'm proud to state that the school I went to is in the top 5% of all comprehensives - it's mixed, non selective and state run. We never did latin or greek, that's rather highbrow. We only learnt French because, well, we're right next door to them. Trig at age 12? Man, we didn't do that until we were 15 or 16 (gcses). I dunno how Brit schooling compares to American, but you're experience seems to have been a lot better than normal.

      Oh, and for any Yanks wondering - such articles are regularly published in UK media too, and all the parents stress about lack of quality schooling and how India will kick our ass etc. I think it's a western thing, rather than American.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:School by Malc (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:02PM
      • Re:School by RocketGeek (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:42PM
        • Re:School by MightyTribble (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @09:46PM
      • Re:School by mbvgp (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:51PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:School by nathanh (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:03AM
      • Re:School by Dusabre (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @05:19AM
      • Hmm... by kiwimate (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @09:18AM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Hear, hear! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:52PM
      • Re:Hear, hear! by .sig (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @05:34PM
        • Re:Hear, hear! by groove10 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:22PM
        • Re:Hear, hear! by Associate (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:50AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Hear, hear! by miller701 (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @01:39PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:School (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Knara (9377) <swalsh76@gmailMONET.com minus painter> on Monday December 16 2002, @04:55PM (#4901698)
      When I was having thanksgiving dinner with my extended family, the wife of one of my cousins was complaining about her kid's schooling. In the same breath she complained about how the schooling was inadequate, and how they give the kids too much homework.

      How could this be, I wondered. I added that from my experience (and the experience related by my friends who did not go to a private school like I did), kids needed *more* homework, not less.

      Her reply? "Just wait until you have kids, and have to spend your time helping them with their homework."

      And there, my friends, is why our educational system is in the crapper.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:School by jazman_777 (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @05:36PM
      • Re:School by antaeogo (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:43PM
        • Re:School by grmoc (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:36AM
          • Re:School by sexecutioner (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @06:48AM
          • Re:School by pbuxton (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @06:10PM
      • Re:School by HeghmoH (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:43PM
        • Re:School by grmoc (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:51AM
        • Re:School by MrResistor (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:49PM
      • Re:School by silas_moeckel (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:01PM
        • Re:School (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Mac Degger (576336) on Monday December 16 2002, @10:12PM (#4904316) Journal
          Don't underestimate the power of memorisation. While of course you need to be able to operate on the facts to do things, you do operate on facts. Knowing them instead of having to look them up is quite a timesaver, leading to increased efficiency. Not only that, but knowing a lot also leads to being able to put seemingly unrelated bits of data together, which is one basis for invention.

          A good mix of thinking and knowing is crucial to get a good education.
          [ Parent ]
          • Re:School by sjames (Score:2) Wednesday December 18 2002, @10:07AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:School by grmoc (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:41AM
      • He don' need no schoolin' anyway... by aquarian (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:02AM
      • Re:School by sjames (Score:2) Wednesday December 18 2002, @09:50AM
    • Re:School by Best_Username_Ever (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:59PM
      • Re:School by Best_Username_Ever (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:29PM
      • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:School (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 16 2002, @05:03PM (#4901755)

      I work with schools all the time, and I can tell you the problem with education in the United States is not teachers. It's not even the politicians. It's the general population which seems to be schizophrenic about public education. There are referendums on school vouchers popping up all over the place. That means people are bailing out on public ed. We have to decide whether we want public schools or not and act accordingly.

      As far as marketeers, lawyers, etc., those are the people who have always been successful in the United States. You can't claim that the captains of industry have been brilliant engineers or innovators. More often it seems they're simply people who are ruthless, unscrupulous, lucky, or some combination thereof.

      I'm also a little tired of people bashing the education system without offering any constructive criticism. It's quite easy to scream about how bad the system is and stand silent when asked for potential solutions. In the States, we educate a more diverse and larger population than most people who claim to have better systems. There are individual states in the Union larger than entire EU nations. In fact, there are two or three districts in West Texas that are larger than sovereign European states. So don't tell me we're always comparing apples to apples.

      In short, I think there's a lot of panic about a situation that would better be solved by reason and open discussion. Let's pay our teachers better, put administrative power over schools back at the local level, trim the bureaucratic fat at the state and federal levels, and demand more from our kids.

      Forgive me...I've had way, way too much coffee.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:School by Jamesie (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:00PM
      • Re:School by zbuffered (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:01PM
      • Why does Ben Stein bash public ed? by bubbha (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:35PM
      • Re:School by Zoop (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @09:49PM
        • Re:School by Associate (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:20AM
      • Re:School by Mac Degger (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @10:17PM
      • Re:School by Drakonian (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @11:42PM
      • Re:School (BALOGNA) by Vaughn Anderson (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @10:38AM
        • Don by Yet Another Smith (Score:2) Wednesday December 18 2002, @11:32AM
      • Re:School by TeachingMachines (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @01:36PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:School by kavi_3 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:16PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:School (Score:5, Insightful)

      by KludgeGrrl (630396) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:18PM (#4901802) Homepage
      True, I don't think anyone can seriously believe that the public school system in the States is not in deep trouble. We've all heard about the %11 of US students who cannot find *the US* on a map... But this neo-conservative plan for the future would hardly solve the problem.

      Apropos of education Stein writes:

      "Allow schools to fall into useless decay. Do not teach civics or history except to describe America as a hopelessly fascistic, reactionary pit. Do not expect students to know the basics of mathematics, chemistry and physics. Working closely with the teachers' unions, make sure that you dumb down standards so that children who make the most minimal effort still get by with flying colors. Destroy the knowledge base on which all of mankind's scientific progress has been built by guaranteeing that such learning is confined to only a few, and spread ignorance and complacency among the many."

      But later (#10 for all you following at home) he argues against what he perceives to be unfair and heavy taxation. So the US is supposed to improve schools without raising money to do so? At its most simple level, there are two basid problems.

      1) Teachers get paid shit in the US. In NYC the average salery for public school teachers is just under $32,000/year (before taxes), which makes it impossible to feed and house oneself in the city (unless there are some other funds coming in, trust fund, spouse, etc). Likewise, a university professor (tenure track) at San Fransico State makes abut $40,000/yr -- in San Francisco! A janitor in a Columbus Ohio high school, on the other hand, makes about $50,000/yr. What does this tell you about the value in which teachers are held?

      There are some great dedicated teachers out there, but I have taught more than one, kind well-meaning, and utterly incompetent student who planned to teach high school (and went on to do so). Yes many teachers suck (although I think almost all must be pretty selfless to put up with a very hard job). Look at what we pay them.

      Yet Stein is also against those evil teacher unions. I hate to break the news, but most teacher unions are not fighting to lower standards, they are fighting for decent working conditions. Sometimes this involves lowering the bar because standards cannot be held in the conditions in which they work. Bringing us to pt. 2...

      2) Given the lack of financial support for education in the US, many schools are falling apart and grossly overcrowded (10% are trying to function at %125 capacity) necesitating teaching in gyms, halls, etc... and creating enormous classes that are impossible for the most dedicated teacher to manage.

      So even if we had better teachers, they would have an impossible job to do. So we end up with a nation of illiterates (44 million I think), who don't know anything about the world around them, not to even mention technology or science.

      It is all very well to say "Hey we should do a better job teaching our kids," of course we should! But to do that we must spend money. Not that throwing money at the problem will make it go away, but it's a fundamental ingredient for meaningful change -- an ingrediant that the rest of Stein's articles run in the face of.

      (sorry for the dangling participle)

      Yes, I differ with Stein in a number of ways, we are clearly on different ends of the political spectrum, but I leave it to others to address his other "points to change" in an intelligent fashion. I'm ranted out for the moment ;)
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:School by TandyMasterControl (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:38PM
        • Re:School by elmegil (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:44PM
      • Re:School by Mac Degger (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @10:22PM
        • Re:School by nathanm (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @11:46PM
          • Re:School by Malcontent (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @11:58PM
            • Re:School by nathanm (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:49AM
      • Re:School by (arg!)Styopa (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:16AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:School (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Gropo (445879) <groopoNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Monday December 16 2002, @05:23PM (#4901833) Homepage Journal
      I absolutely concur! I was raised in British and American international schools in Europe until the 4th grade, at which point we moved back to the 'States and I attended Public schools. They began to teach us French in 1st frickin' grade!

      I recall my 3rd grade class play was a highly professional production with singing solos etc - I move back to the states and I'm the frickin' '3rd upper Molar on the right side' in some banal play about hygeine.

      This country's public school system (shy the new 'charter' system) strikes me as Cro-Magnon survival skills in comparison...
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:School by Arandir (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @07:05PM
    • Re:School by elluzion (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:28PM
    • Re:School by jazman_777 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:34PM
      • Re:School by groove10 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:31PM
        • Re:School by jazman_777 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:52PM
          • Re:School by groove10 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:13PM
            • Re:School by jazman_777 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:35PM
              • Re:School by groove10 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:46PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:School by groove10 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:19PM
        • Re:School by groove10 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @10:35PM
        • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Constructive Criticism by Strange Ranger (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @05:57PM
    • Re:School by Fastball (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @07:36PM
    • Re:School by Darth_Burrito (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @08:00PM
      • Re:School by Mac Degger (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @10:31PM
        • Re:School by nathanm (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:32AM
          • Re:School by Mac Degger (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @10:40AM
            • Re:School by nathanm (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @09:13PM
        • Re:School by Darth_Burrito (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @07:51PM
    • Re:School by Malc (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:55PM
    • Re:School by Malc (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:13PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 5 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Ben forgot by jhampson (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:26PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • My question is... by 1155 (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:26PM
  • Well, he seems largely correct... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by perry (7046) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM (#4901457)
    Ben Stein's comments seem to be reasonably accurate, if you read them. We do indeed live in a country with a crippled education system, general contempt for intellectual activity among the bulk of the population, etc. I don't agree with absolutely everything he said, but overall, it is hard to argue.

    All the foul language and no-nothing replies I've seen here in response to his article are evidence for his contentions, by the way.
  • Bad economy may cause more innovating? by dagg (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM
  • pretty sensational by tps12 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM
  • Too late by FreeLinux (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM
  • 6a. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by RalphTWaP (447267) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM (#4901466)
    Blockquoth the poster evermore:

    6) While you're at it, discourage respect for law in every possible way. This will dissolve the glue that holds the nation together, and dissuade any long-term thinking. Societies in which the law can be clearly seen to apply to some and not to others are doomed to decay, in terms of innovation and everything else.

    And now for an addendum

    6a. Specifically construct laws so riddled with inaccuracy of purpose, incomprehensibility of intent, impossibility of execution, immorality of effect, and plain lack of common sense, that everyone is criminalized equally, and proven innocent $ub$antially due to their per$onal $olvency. Particularly good results may be achieved if the laws in question are ignored as technicalities by the traditionally moral masses.

    inspiration for this post, and the poster believes the original article, was gained largely through understanding the logical basis of the works of Ayn Rand, all credit as it is due

    • Re:6a. by radicalsubversiv (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:10PM
  • Greed and lawyers by mkg (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM
  • Current state of antitrust legislation by BWJones (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:27PM
  • Religion (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 1stflight (48795) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:28PM (#4901471)
    Ever notice how much our technological edge gets dulled by the fear and power of the religous right? No cloning, stem cell research, animal organ transplant research, all because, "it goes against God's will." To which I say if God had wanted us to be illiterate, cave dwelling, dying at 30 idiots, then we'd all still have fur, and the skyscrapper would be a foriegn as the airplane. Religion has dulled America's edge and will continue to do so, so long as we fail to stop using it for a crutch.
    • books by ruriruri (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:50PM
      • Re:books by davew2040 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:19PM
    • Re:Religion by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:54PM
    • Re:Religion by teapot (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:50PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • treading with caution... by freejamesbrown (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:16PM
    • Re:Religion by rabidcow (Score:3) Monday December 16 2002, @10:06PM
      • Re:Religion by Associate (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @05:35AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Religion by TFloore (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:12AM
    • Re:Religion by shibbie (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @08:28AM
    • Re:Religion by 1stflight (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:52PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Somebody Set Us Up the Bomb by Superfreaker (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:28PM
  • A Better Question... by LordYUK (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:28PM
  • by Doktor Memory (237313) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:29PM (#4901490) Journal
    9) Develop a suicidal immigration policy that keeps out educated, hardworking men and women from friendly nations and, instead, takes in vast numbers of angry, uneducated immigrants from nations that hate us.
    Uh huh.

    Whatever you might happen to think about our current immigration policy (I don't like it much myself), there's no getting around the fact that this is hyperbolic bullshit. The vast majority [usdoj.gov] of illegal aliens in the US are migrant workers from Mexico. (Following Mexico are El Salvador, Guatamala and Canada. You have to go all the way down to #17 before you find a country with any substantial terrorist activity: our "ally" Pakistan [usdoj.gov].) Say what you will about Mexico, but it is not exactly a hotbed of anti-American radicalism.

    The rest of this article is exactly the sort of mixture of over-stressed common sense and batshit insanity that I would expect from a former Nixon toady. [imdb.com]
  • Let's see... by anonymousman77 (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:30PM
  • The obvious Slashdot-addendum by kavau (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:30PM
  • This is rich by Cheapoboy (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:30PM
  • I think he hit them on the nose by pardasaniman (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:33PM
  • In no particular order... by occam (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:33PM
  • Make it illegal to do something new or different. by JohnA (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:33PM
  • One long rant by Ost99 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:34PM
  • He has some good points by axafg00b (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:34PM
  • but... by elluzion (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:34PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • You go, Ben... by TopShelf (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:35PM
  • Anyone? Anyone? by miguel_at_menino.com (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:36PM
  • Family by Snoopy77 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:38PM
    • Re:Family by elmegil (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:59PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Political correctness took over by heroine (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:39PM
  • Stripped down (Score:5, Informative)

    by the_rev_matt (239420) <slashbot@NOSPaM.theonymous.com> on Monday December 16 2002, @04:41PM (#4901595) Homepage
    Stripping out all the reactionary conservative ideology, he actually makes some good points.

    1 - Education, real education particularly science and math as well as history and civics, is critical. I can't see how you could disagree with this.

    2 and 3- Our lawsuit-happy society needs to change. This does not mean "kill all the lawyers" as Shakespeare is so often misquoted as saying. It means discourage frivolous lawsuits and encourage personal responsibility (e.g. if you do something stupid, you don't automatically have the right to sue someone). It also means legislators should have to write laws simply and clearly and prevent loopholes rather than encourage them.

    4 - The emphasis on getting rich through luck/cheating should not be glamorized.

    5 - Corporate leaders should be held responsible for their actions.

    6 - The law matters. If you oppose a law work to change it, don't just ignore. There are some bad cops/lawyers/judges/etc, but the vast majority are hard working decent people. Treat them that way.

    7 - The anti-intelligent attitude of much of popular culture (be it talk radio or eMptyTV) is a Bad Thing(tm).

    8 - Roots are a good thing. People are happier and more productive when they have connections to their town/city/etc.

    9 - Immigration policy is skewed in very stupid ways and needs to be reformed.

    10 - The tax system is broken (I disagree with him about death tax and capital gains, but the rest I agree with).

    11 - Our medical system is totally screwed.

    12 - Science is fundamental.
    • Re:Stripped down (Score:4, Interesting)

      by philovivero (321158) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:58PM (#4902200) Homepage Journal

      2 and 3- Our lawsuit-happy society needs to change. This does not mean "kill all the lawyers" as Shakespeare is so often misquoted as saying. It means discourage frivolous lawsuits and encourage personal responsibility (e.g. if you do something stupid, you don't automatically have the right to sue someone). It also means legislators should have to write laws simply and clearly and prevent loopholes rather than encourage them.


      Hear hear. Our government actively and explicitly enforces the litigation-happy situation (I assume it makes lawyers, otherwise known as "our government," more money).

      My employer recently stiffed me out of a week's paycheck in Nevada. Looking up Nevada laws, it's actually quite clear he's violated labor law. I contacted the office of the Labor Commissioner and laid out my case. They wrote me back a nice letter saying it looks like I can afford a lawyer, so they're not going to do their job (enforce labor laws) since I can afford to be a litigation-happy citizen.

      I'm stunned.

      And then the recent /. story about the guy who was stiffed in an Ebay auction, and all the law enforcement officials said: "Naw, this case is too small. We're not going to do our jobs." Amazing. Citizens are encouraged to take matters into their own hands by way of paying lawyers.

      You'd almost think lawyers wrote our current set of obviously fucked-up laws (yes, I'm aware that laws really are written by lawyers).
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Stripped down by milesbparty (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:00PM
    • Re:Stripped down by mgblst (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:13PM
    • Re:Stripped down by Fastball (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @08:24PM
    • Re:Stripped down by goon america (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @10:54PM
    • Re:Stripped down by Malcontent (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:10AM
    • Re:Stripped down by MrResistor (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:21PM
    • woops, slashdot died... here's the links... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:39PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • The US trains foreigners by Malc (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:43PM
  • What America Exceeds At (Score:4, Informative)

    by unfortunateson (527551) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:45PM (#4901621) Journal
    Unfortunately for Neal Stephenson's forecasting record, it may no longer be fast pizza delivery (Domino's got sued (see Stein comment #3)), or software (lots of the kewl open source stuff is, indeed overseas -- can you say linux? [I can't pronounce it right no matter how many times I try -- leenooks?]), but it's still entertainment.

    1) Fun: We still produce more films than anyone but India, and not many people outside of the subcontinent watch those anyway. A substantial amount of the television shows (Emeril!) music, video games, theme parks, etc. still come from the good ol' US of A.

    2) Pharmaceuticals -- now careful, I'm not lumping these with Entertainment. Prescription drugs are mostly innovated here.

    3) Microprocessors -- sure they're manufactured where the labor is cheap, but Intel, Moto, IBM... they're developing the stuff here.

    4) Industrial Design -- The shiny new cars that are manufactured by foreign companies use US design teams. Why do you think Daimler bought Chrysler?
  • by cbuskirk (99904) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:45PM (#4901625)
    Most of that article is rightwing propganda with a little on tech to gloss it over. Here is a list of ways we can do to help....

    1. The duh answer of them all of course is increased school funding. I relize however, if everyone got a decent education, we would have very few people willing to join the military and those who did would join one loaded with officers, and no cannon fodder, I mean elisted men.

    2. Not everyone needs to get a four year degree. There needs to be many more professional opportunities for people with 2 year degrees. It would increase tax revenue to have a better paid population, and reduce the burden on four year universities who can better use the money on people who need to spend the time in college.

    3. Companies that spend a sigifigant portion (~75%) of thier R&D money in Univeristy based Labs would recive an huge tax break.

    4. Medical Advancement: Place a 20 blackout on the production of generics and in return drug companies must reduce prices by 75%. New drug prices are high in this country because a company must recoup the billions it spent on R&D in the first 3 years to make any sort of profit, because after 5 it can be made by anyone dirt cheap.

    This give companies much more capital and incentive to innovate instead of copy what the other guy did and sell it cheaper.

    5. Government Funded Hard Science: If we rely only on corperations to fund research, then we are going to be limmited to innovations that will make a profit, and we will be worthless as a civilization.
  • America has ALREADY Lost it's Innovation? by isa-kuruption (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:46PM
  • Another by fitten (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:49PM
  • by webster (22696) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:50PM (#4901655)
    We see this all the time. People see terrible things going on and think that all they have to do is point at it while loudly raising alarm, and they have contributed to the solution. Well, it ain't true. Yeah, the education system sucks, but it isn't because those running it want it to suck. TV is a vast wasteland, and always has been, but what, if anything, can be done to improve it? Even offering a solution is dangerous enough, but fixing a social problem without a plan will certainly lead to disaster.

    Utopians consistently excel in discovering faults, but those who actually try to fix them usually end up with a situation far worse than the one they were so alarmed about.
  • Ben Stein Biography by BurntHombre (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:52PM
  • idols by skinny23 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:58PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • The site that can't fix it's flag icon by teamhasnoi (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:58PM
  • It is true, but not just for the USA... by rediguana (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:58PM
  • I find it funny... by sawilson (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:05PM
  • by ruriruri (566567) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:06PM (#4901772) Homepage
    We may have lost the technology race, but America still has the junk-food edge! From high-fat/low-nutrient chocolate bars to high-carbohydrate corn-syrup carbonated beverages, America clearly leads the world in the production and consumption of unbelievably shitty pseudo-foods! We must not allow the Soviets to close the junk-food gap.

    Unfortunately, one area in which there appears to be no gap is the right-wing rhetoric arms race.

  • Japan vs. US by Gudlyf (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:13PM
  • The rest of the way there (Score:5, Interesting)

    by st. augustine (14437) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:15PM (#4901779)
    We're well on our way to hell in a handbasket. What would it take to get us the rest of the way there?
    1. Blame all problems with the educational system on greedy teachers' unions. Do not provide sufficient funding for building upkeep and course materials, let alone enough to attract a wider range of more highly qualified teachers. Count on philanthropic parents in rich neighborhoods to chip in to keep their kids' schools going, and let schools in poor neighborhoods go to hell.
    2. Allow large corporations to buy unlimited influence in government. Have any legislation that affects a particular industry be written by the lobbyists for that industry's entrenched players. Assume that anyone currently making a profit has a God-given right to their business model, and structure the intellectual property laws appropriately. Claim marketing expenses as R&D.
    3. Support a company's right to falsify evidence in favor of their products and suppress evidence against them. If the evidence that a company's products or processes do more harm than good has finally become too overwhelming for them to cover up, shoehorn loopholes into unrelated laws to protect them.
    4. Treat CEOs as celebrities, even when all they've done is preside over tanking companies and collect golden parachutes. Confuse blind luck with well-deserved rewards and ruthlessness with business sense. Pretend that we live in a society with equal opportunity, and salute those whose successes have been handed to them on a silver platter as though they'd earned them.
    5. Encourage companies to avoid taxes by creating shell offices in Bahamanian PO boxes. Reward them with open-ended government contracts with no cost auditing.
    6. Do your best to keep 50% of your productive population out of the workplace. Continue to pretend that a single-income family is viable in today's economy. Provide no support for working parents. Discourage women from intellectual, innovative, or creative pursuits.
    7. Discourage cultural and social diversity as much as possible. When immigrants absolutely can't be kept out, do whatever you can to make them, and their citizen children, feel unwelcome and unvalued. (Consider bringing back the educational and religious policies of forced assimilation that worked so well with Native Americans.) Presume in the face of all historical evidence that the children of uneducated immigrants will be unable to contribute to society. Assume that America has nothing to learn from the rest of the world, and do your best to make sure it doesn't.
    8. Enact a tax system that encourages the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer. Shift as much of the tax burden as possible onto the middle class. Make sure that the wealthy have plenty of ways to exclude their income from taxation, and that the less wealthy have as little access to capital as possible. Encourage them to go into debt, and allow consumer lending companies to set themselves up for a fall approaching the one the Japanese banking system's going through.
    9. Take as a given that nothing that works (or doesn't work) in the rest of the world could possibly have applicability to America, unless of course it agrees with your preconceived notion of the direction America should be going. If anyone tries to suggest that something the Europeans or Japanese are doing might be a good idea, accuse them of being socialist or communist. Where possible, try to confuse France with the USSR.
    10. Pretend that a health care system that leaves tens of millions of citizens uninsured is "socialized". (Use "socialized" as a dirty word to describe any system that might actually cover all Americans.) Skew what medical care there is toward prolonging the agonies of the terminally ill. Discourage preventative medicine and expect all medical problems to be solved with pharmaceutical "silver bullets".

    My list need not end here but I got tired of typing. And anyway, I even agree with one or two of Mr. Stein's points. But just as Mr. Stein did I realized that my list was already the program of many of our elected officials. (Hmm.)

  • china will take over the us in genetic research by circletimessquare (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:21PM
  • Outsourcing by ZenJabba1 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:22PM
  • Hope you actually read the article. by RobFrontier (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:23PM
  • It's education stupid (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LoRider (16327) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:26PM (#4901864) Homepage Journal
    One of the reasons my fare country, the United States of America, sucks is because of education. Our education system is eroding more and more every year.

    Why?

    That's actually quite obvious. There are people, probably all neo-cons, that want privatization of our schools. They are vehemently against anything resembling socialism and will fight to the death to privatize everything.

    Capitalism can only succeed if we have a mix between private corporations and some socialist programs. Schools should be available to everyone without the contamination of corporations, libraries should available to all, health care to everyone.

    So the plan is let the public school system crumble to the ground, show the success of school vouchers for private schools, make public schools private. It's so freaking obvious it's not even worth debating. The Republicans want everything to be driven by capitalism and will stop at nothing to achieve it. The Democrats are too scared to do anything about it for fear of not getting re-elected. The average American doesn't have the time to worry about it because they are working 50-60 hours a week with 1 week vacation and trying to figure out how to afford sending their kids to college.

    I hate to say it but we are fucked. We are going to be fucked for quite some time, until the average dumbass figures out he's working harder than his dad did and making less money and paying more taxes while corporations don't pay shit in taxes. It's only a matter of time before the shit hits the fan but I am afraid it will be a few years before the dumbasses realize the situation and a few more years to get it fixed.
  • Some good points... by StarTux (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:26PM
  • That is the major cause behind US economic decline by Petrus (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:28PM
  • Yes, America is losing it's technological edge by bmetzler (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:31PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Why do foreigners come to American universities? by joshamania (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:33PM
  • My Take (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DaytonCIM (100144) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:35PM (#4901951) Homepage Journal
    Allow schools to fall into useless decay.

    Let's first address the physical decay facing our nation's schools. The current conditions facing most students and teachers are appalling. We spend more money decorating the White House for annual holidays than most school districts budget for building maintenance.

    Do not expect students to know the basics of mathematics, chemistry and physics. Working closely with the teachers' unions, make sure that you dumb down standards so that children who make the most minimal effort still get by with flying colors.

    Standardized testing and federal guidelines must challenge our nation's students. In the last 15 years, federal regulations and state authorities have enacted a wave of PC rules that force schools to combine students of varying learning abilities into one large class. In that class, is expected that a student with a reading ability of an 8th grader to complete the same work as a student with a reading ability of a 12th grader.

    What happened to Remedial and Honors classes?

    Encourage the making of laws and rules by trial lawyers and sympathetic judges, especially through class actions. Bypass the legislative mechanisms that involve elected representatives and a president. This will stop--or at least greatly slow down--innovation, as corporations and individuals hesitate to explore new ideas for fear of getting punished (or regulated to death) by litigation for any misstep, no matter how slight, in the creation of new products and services. Make sure that lawsuits against drugmakers are especially encouraged so that the companies are afraid to develop new lifesaving drugs, lest they be sued for sums that will bankrupt them. Make trial lawyers and judges, not scientists, responsible for the flow of new products and services.

    There is no question that this country needs to address Tort reform. In addition, we as a nation need to recognize that regulation is not what the founding fathers had in mind when writing the Constitution. I don't need the FCC protecting my children or me from televised orgies; I am most capable of regulating my children and myself. I don't need lawmakers asking what is popular with the country. I need lawmakers that are not afraid to do what is right, even if it is not what is popular.

    Create a culture that blames the other guy for everything and discourages any form of individual self-restraint or self-control. Promote litigation to punish tobacco companies on the theory that they compel innocent people to smoke. Make it second nature for someone who is overweight to blame the restaurant that served him fries.

    We must encourage and teach our children to take responsibility for their actions. Simple as that. If you drink and drive it is not the responsibility of the bartender, it is your responsibility.

    Sneer at hard work and thrift. Encourage the belief that all true wealth comes from skillful manipulation and cunning, or from sudden, brilliant and lucky strokes that leave the plodding, ordinary worker and saver in the dust. Make sure that society's idols are men and women who got rich from being sexy in public or through gambling or playing tricks, not from hard work or patience. Make the citizenry permanently envious and bewildered about where real success comes from.

    Continue making music videos that display a non-reality. For example, Jay-Z does not make 10 figures a year and selling 10 millions albums does not make you rich: ask TLC. In addition, be honest and open about the .com millionaires and the damage wrought by that economic boom.

    Hold the managers of corporations to extremely lax standards of conduct and allow them to get off with a slap on the wrist when they betray the trust of shareholders. This will discourage thrift and investment and ensure that Americans will have far less capital to work with than other societies, while simultaneously developing that contempt for law and social standards that is the hallmark of failing nations. Hold the management of labor unions to no ethical standards.

    Halliburton. WorldCom. Enron. United Airlines. But why are we upset? Why are we surprised? This is not the first time that CEOs have raped us. Oil companies did it in the 70s. Savings and Loans did it in 80s.

    While you're at it, discourage respect for law in every possible way. This will dissolve the glue that holds the nation together, and dissuade any long-term thinking. Societies in which the law can be clearly seen to apply to some and not to others are doomed to decay, in terms of innovation and everything else.

    I don't imagine that a 31 year-old black woman who shoplifts $5100 in merchandise from Macys would receive probation and community service. I don't imagine that anyone but a star baseball player would be charged and convicted of DUI, possession, and assault 4 different times before seeing the inside of a jail cell. I don't imagine that anyone but a star basketball player could physical assault their coach/boss, and then be offered a 7 figure yearly income with another team/job.

    Encourage a mass culture that spits on intelligence and study and instead elevates drug use, coolness through sex and violence, and contempt for school. As children learn to be stupid instead of smart, the national intelligence base needed for innovation will simply vanish into MTV-land.

    It is sad when video games outsell books. It is deplorable that most teenage boys can spew more slang for a woman's genital region, than he can name past Presidents.

    Mock and belittle the family. Provide financial incentives to people willing to live an isolated existence, vulnerable and frightened. This guarantees that men and women of sufficient character to bring about innovation will be psychologically stifled from an early age.

    Why do my wife and I pay a higher percentage of our income in taxes than single people?

    Enact a tax system that encourages class antagonism and punishes saving, while rewarding indebtedness, frivolity and consumption. Tax the fruits of labor many times:

    First tax it as income.
    Then tax it as real or personal property.
    Then tax it as capital gains.
    Then tax it again, at a staggeringly high level, at death.

    This way, Americans are taught that only fools save, and that it is entirely proper for us to have the lowest savings rate in the developed world. This will deprive us of much-needed capital for new investment, for innovation and our own personal aspirations. It will compel us to ask foreigners for ever more capital and allow them to own more of America. It will also promote an attitude of carelessness about the future and, once again, encourage disrespect for law.


    There isn't anything I can add here. Ben Stein is dead on. As a young couple and making over $100K a year, my wife and I still don't know how we are going to afford a house, retirement, etc... It sounds far-fetched, but given taxes and more taxes, there is very little that we can save.

    Have a socialized medical system that scrimps on badly needed drugs and procedures, resorts to only the cheapest practices and discourages drug companies from developing new drugs by not paying them enough to cover their costs of experimentation, trial and error.

    If you don't think we have socialized medicine in the US, then explain to me what an HMO is.

    Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism--and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women--to an equal status with technology in the public mind. Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable.

    Because it is important that we return school prayer. Forget that schools cannot afford textbooks and some children cannot afford lunch, we have to work together to return school prayer. School prayer will make everything better.

    And make sure that we give equal time to Darwin and the Book of Genesis when discussing the origins of the Universe.

    But I stopped at a dozen because I realized that this is already, in large measure, the program of so many of our elected representatives. The debauchery of our tort system is already in place, and the rest of the agenda is under way.

    Enough said. Out.
  • Does that mean Ben Stein is right? by dismal scientist (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:39PM
  • The rest of the world by candiman (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:41PM
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  • rise and fall of america by b17bmbr (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:41PM
  • Lawsuits And Responsiblity by Mittermeyer (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:44PM
  • Home Schoolers to Win Ben Stein's Money? by ubiquitin (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:52PM
  • Ben Stein by Funkeriffic Toad (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:53PM
    • Re:Ben Stein by smack_attack (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:19PM
    • Re:Ben Stein by Phaedrusalt (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @10:20PM
    • Re:Ben Stein by Mike A. (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @01:51AM
  • Family is very important! by PineHall (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:55PM
  • American technological edge...or not by Glock27 (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:58PM
  • just another yahoo article (Score:3, Insightful)

    by deego (587575) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:59PM (#4902214) Homepage
    Well, anyone who reads yahoo editorials knows that yahoo seems to have gone more rightwing than wall street, what with the likes of Ann Coulter filling the ranks fo columnists.

    let me just translate a few points from the column

    [1] please allow us to take exemptions for sending our children to private religious schools, which admit only certain religions, teach religion in school, and teach creationism.

    [2] pleaase allow law to be made only by "nonsympathetic" judges, and only by big corporations. and please help us get rid of the scum of America by putting them on deathrow.

    [3]Keep guns legal and keep the governemtn in the pockets of tobacco companies and NRA. never mind that our country has become the primary source of guns throughout the world--including places like Columbia. OH, and while you are at it, make cd players and debuggers illegal , they can be used to commit "crimes".

    [4] please introduce a flat tax --everyone should be charged $100, no matter how much they earn. After all the government doesn't do more work for the rich, does it?

    Never mind the fact that in a supply-and-demand society, it is the rich who will want to pay the $100 for building a road, while the poor will want to spend his $100 on preventing self-starvation rather than getting that road built. Forget supply-and-demand. whoever said that that's what governs a free market??

    [5] let me try to coopt a "left-wing" agenda here, because it is popular nowadays. Why not slip in a barb against (the nearly outlawed) labor unions?

    [6] more power to cops and ashcroft please. and it is the drugs that kill, not guns.

    [7] Darn, did you read the bible before having sex.? Note that it's that what causes all the violence and deaths, not the guns.

    [8] Family values! now! Oust gays and outlaw prostitution. oh wait, already done.

    [9] continue allowing big industry to manipulate our immuigraiton policty to make evryone believe ther'es shortage of high-tech workers.

    [10] Flat taxes! now!

    [11] darn, out drug companies are not making enough. They need to be able to patent more stuff, people's genes, ancient medicines, oh, done, cool, hmm, anything left that i can think of? Body parts? yeah!

    [12] The only allowed religioun should be a monotheistic christianity. And the worst religion of all should be atheism. In God We Trust.

    List doesn't end here....but i repeat: our country will go to hell if we don't do something about these nonchristian "scientific" types soon.

    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Education System Yadda Yadda by the eric conspiracy (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:59PM
  • We don't need technology by dnoyeb (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:00PM
  • by Mittermeyer (195358) on Monday December 16 2002, @06:00PM (#4902235) Homepage
    One of the biggest problems from my perspective is that the entire purpose of patent law has been undermined by the expansion beyond the original intent of trade secrets and copyrights.

    Trade secrets has allowed companies to essentially patent the unpatentable and protect concepts and ideas far past the patent limit.

    Copyrights are even worse in that they have allowed companies to publish software and legally protect it without actually publishing the source code.

    Consider Microsoft's successful squashing of any 'unauthorized' books regarding API calls. To me Microsoft would be truly covered if all the API calls were actually published and therefore copyrighted, but they are not. So what is covered is not actually known to the public or described in any public way, yet Microsoft can continue to have them and be legally protected by just copyrighting the distribution of the executables.

    This is an abomination of the entire point of having a patent or a copyright system- to encourage innovation by giving the user exclusive use and rights legally protected for a time in exchange for having the body of knowledge published publically.

    Why bother to patent when trade secrets or copyright can protect you longer with no public release of knowledge or concepts?

    We have drastically erred on the side of use and rights without the fair exchange of public knowledge. Until we fix this part our innovative tech base will continue to suffer.
  • What about it's philosophical failings by podperson (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:02PM
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  • Re: Tech innovation check by Stripe7 (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:02PM
  • Its simple really by RhettLivingston (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:03PM
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  • Tech Is Definitely Moving Offshore by jzellis (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:04PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • ever notice how.. by trybywrench (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:05PM
  • Tired, hateful, reactionary nonsense by radicalsubversiv (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:06PM
  • The U.S.? How about Japan? by crivens (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:07PM
  • Technical edge is not enough. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by renoX (11677) on Monday December 16 2002, @06:11PM (#4902383)
    I'm a foreigner (French), so of course my external POV is biased but I disagree on several points on the article:
    - point 3. Promote litigation to punish tobacco companies on the theory that they compel innocent people to smoke.

    Sorry, but this is very bad exemple, while I agree that in the US there are too many litigations, I also believe that tobacco companies do try to compel innocent people to smoke by running ads targetted to young teen.
    In France, after a long battle, the problem has been solved in a radical way: any advertisement for tobacco is forbidden in any media.

    - point 12. Uh? I've always seen American people as being in general higly religious which apparently haven't prevented the US from being the richest nation.
    I don't really thinks that the nature of the religion is important wether it is catholicism, mysticim, or other things (except sects of course)

    But I'm an atheist, so I'm not very knowledgeable into religions and I don't care, to be honest.

    Also the article somehow insists too much on the technical side of the affair: US has not have the best student or best researchers for a long time, still the US is still the first nation on a big number of field, why?
    Because the transformation of new idea into industries which sells works very well in the US whereas in the other country usually it doesn't work so well.

    And another thing: the article didn't list the patents as a highly dangourous thing: they could slow down inovation very much..

  • Most Efficient Re-Distribution of Resources by snatchitup (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:11PM
  • Why we have our advantage by triumphDriver (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:14PM
  • I'm not worried. by ave19 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:15PM
  • its the culture by p24t (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:19PM
  • You Gets What You Pays For (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Mittermeyer (195358) on Monday December 16 2002, @06:20PM (#4902456) Homepage
    Any society will respond to what is valued either through the marketplace or socially. Ours is no exception.

    We do not value little smart gadgets like the Japanese do, so we do not make them as well or as consistently. The Japanese do not have per capita square footage like we do, so anything that gives them more capability in a small space is prized. Electronics are also a very profitable item to ship, so it was an excellent arena for the Japanese to specialize in.

    Being behind in consumer electronics is not new. Our broadcast standards have been absolutely behind most of the world for decades, for instance. But a clear picture wasn't as important to us and so we have lagged until HDTV.

    On the other hand we feel a need to have a strong military. So we put our money into all sorts of hideous toys that are so far ahead of everyone else's that Pax Americana is an absolute fact. No matter how much Japan or France or Russia or China may want to, they simply cannot build an F-22 for a long time to come.

    Unfortunately F-22s do not readily translate into consumer products, but items like BOMARC and B-52s translated into the 747, still a world-beater product.

    I'm not suggesting that the military-industrial complex is our technical salvation, but since we prioritize and pay for it we get that kind of technical edge. If we want innovation in other sectors of our economy, we will need to prioritize that, either as a government initiative or the natural course of market desire.

    And we need to stop whining if we don't absolutely dominate every global industrial endeavor. As long as we can offload the commoditization to Japan or the Little Dragons and keep the innovation in-house, who cares if we all have Playstations instead of Ataris?
  • by FrankieBoy (452356) on Monday December 16 2002, @06:22PM (#4902469)
    As any good conspiracy theorist knows the single event that gave the US its' technical edge was the UFO crash at Roswell in '47. The recovered craft has been feeding tech into American industry for the last 50 years. There's just the anti-gravity and propulsion stuff left. Oh well, we'll just have to wait until the next crash.
  • Corporate America, stifling innovation by Mirkon (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:24PM
  • he didn't mention DRM by technoCon (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:36PM
  • re: Og vs. Grog by EzInKy (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:40PM
  • Oh yeah, let's not forget PARANOIA... by Baracus (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:45PM
  • an outside perspective - US Brain suck? by daniel.haran (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:47PM
  • Ben Stein is SO smart by miletus (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:47PM
  • Money culture by scrotch (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:49PM
  • How do you define "Americas tech advantage?" by wiresquire (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:56PM
  • Another fundamental question.. by Guignol (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:01PM
  • How taxes work by heroine (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:01PM
  • USA's edge is being ruined by short sighedness! by Newer Guy (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:04PM
  • US universities still top notch by HuguesT (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:04PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Right problems, wrong set of wrong answers by hunterellinger (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:07PM
  • What is worse... by gatkinso (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:27PM
  • squandered lead by sharrestom (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:33PM
  • Eli Whitney should be remembered by huckamania (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:42PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • An open letter to Ben Stein by mikosullivan (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:47PM
  • how to ruin america by EugeneK (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:51PM
  • Politics by johnlein (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:52PM
  • my comments by Tablizer (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:53PM
  • In brief by John Bayko (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @07:55PM
  • How to Ruin American Enterprise by anthony_dipierro (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:55PM
  • Amerca's "Tech Edge" - reality check by Dukeofshadows (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:01PM
  • He left out #13 by spanky555 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:02PM
  • With the emerging protectionism of some predatory companies on the expence of newstarters the innovation regarding to computers have almost grinded to a halt. Damn, our computers is still based on 1950 technoloygy when better ways exists but no one seems willing to take a chance and implement it with such entrenched companies as Intel and Microsoft at the helm. The USA needs aggressive enforcement of antitrust, oligopol and kill the DMCA in its cradle. The DMCA pretty much cements certain oligopols and monopolies by law.

    All these stupid decisions gives the ball to other countries to play with. I think the USA can very well go the same way as Japan did in the 90's. With current leadership in the states that is dangerous as hell. Bad economy? Start a war and focus the citizens on another direction.

    It happens right now!
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Let's play Devil's Advocate for a moment... by thewickedmystic (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @08:07PM
  • When was this article written... by dcmeserve (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:15PM
  • Adoption of technology by SixDimensionalArray (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:19PM
  • Wither America's Technological Edge? by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @08:21PM
  • USA has tradionally done VERY well for itself by somekindofuniguy (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:38PM
  • This may sound long and rambly... by Tiresias_Mons (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:01PM
  • This article is stupid by br00tus (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @09:23PM
  • Baloney and Cheese Balls by jefu (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @09:35PM
  • Process vs product by Phaedrusalt (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:41PM
  • Innovation != Technology by Stuntmonkey (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:42PM
  • Oh no, the poor pharmaceuticals!! by voodoo1man (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:55PM
  • US has ideas? by BoneMarrow (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:15AM
  • The way it goes by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:24AM
  • i have to say by Edmund Blackadder (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @01:02AM
  • a small observation by lingqi (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @01:12AM
  • whither sensibility ? by dmohanty (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @01:45AM
  • Our technological edge (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jgardn (539054) <jgardn@alumni.washington.edu> on Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:10AM (#4905584) Homepage Journal
    Businesses accept a certain level of risk when they invest their money in things to grow their business.

    Technology is one of the most dangerous risks to take. Not only are you pouring money into something that has never been done before, but you are doing it for a product that has never been created before. Usually, the results of your investment will not be seen for several years or more.

    Ben Stein is right on the money. Those things that liberals want to do -- uproot our society, change the way everyone lives over night, and throw away everything we built our country on -- means that the future is unpredictable.

    Conservatives have had it right all along. We should be building on the past, not tearing it down and starting from scratch.
  • Ooooh by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:40AM
  • School vouchers will solve the education problem by camelcai (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:42AM
  • Space Race by Hasie (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @02:58AM
  • Drug Companies by Erno_Rubaiyat (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:03AM
  • The inheritance tax limits innovation?? by seth_baldwin (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:38AM
  • by dr.badass (25287) on Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:51AM (#4905786) Homepage
    Quoth the article :
    (Story continues after advertisement)

    -DoctorB
  • Ben Stein, luser (Score:3, Insightful)

    by alizard (107678) <`moc.sice' `ta' `drazila'> on Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:52AM (#4905967) Homepage
    We're well on our way to squelching what gives this country an edge. What would it take to kill innovation altogether?

    Following Ben Stein's implied prescription as to the cure to what ails America would do it once and for all. If he'd ever done anything constructive with technology for a living, he might be clued enough to make his perceptions about what makes technological innovation of value. Reading his article makes him wonder what planet he moved to after his job with Nixon quit him. As well as why he returned and why Forbes decided to give him a public forum.

    As a casual observer of what makes this country work and what stops it cold, I hereby offer a few suggestions on how we can ruin American competitiveness and innovation in the course of this century.

    His suggestions might be worth something if he'd ever gotten closer to real technologists than any article in the financial press could have taken him.

    I think the reader will agree with me that we are already far down the road on many of them:

    1) Allow schools to fall into useless decay. Do not teach civics or history except to describe America as a hopelessly fascistic, reactionary pit.

    He wants schools to leave the Nixon era out of history books? Not that I blame him, he's one of the guilty parties, he was on the Nixon staff. But he isn't important enough to be mentioned by name.

    Do not expect students to know the basics of mathematics, chemistry and physics.

    A couple of hours ago, I helped an average high school student in an average suburban high school make a model of the sodium atom. In large part, the science textbooks are finally becoming adequate and much better than the ones I used in high school (graduated at mid-term in 1972).

    Working closely with the teachers' unions, make sure that you dumb down standards so that children who make the most minimal effort still get by with flying colors. Destroy the knowledge base on which all of mankind's scientific progress has been built by guaranteeing that such learning is confined to only a few, and spread ignorance and complacency among the many. Watch America lose its scientific and competitive edge to other nations that make a comprehensive knowledge base a rule of the society.

    We're going to lose our competitive edge to the RIAA/MPAA cartel long before the educational system has time to do what he describes.

    While public education is in serious disrepair, the problem (at least in California and other states which are finally enforcing some) isn't standards, it's structure and methods. The standards for high school graduation in a local California school district I reviewed are perfectly adequate. I'm at something of a loss as to how their educational methods are going to accomplish this, from what I've been able to see, the teachers are using homework not to reinforce the classroom instruction given during the school day, but to force parents to provide the instruction the teachers weren't able to provide. The money is probably adequate, but is dissipated in "administrative expenses" having little discernable relationship to classroom instruction.

    2) Encourage the making of laws and rules by trial lawyers and sympathetic judges, especially through class actions. Bypass the legislative mechanisms that involve elected representatives and a president. This will stop--or at least greatly slow down--innovation, as corporations and individuals hesitate to explore new ideas for fear of getting punished (or regulated to death) by litigation for any misstep, no matter how slight, in the creation of new products and services. Make sure that lawsuits against drugmakers are especially encouraged so that the companies are afraid to develop new lifesaving drugs, lest they be sued for sums that will bankrupt them. Make trial lawyers and judges, not scientists, responsible for the flow of new products and services.

    I'm a hell of a lot more concerned about the unrestrained influence of the lobbyists of the Hollywood content cartel than I am about tort law, which has largely already been reformed in the direction Mr. Stein asks for. The factors that restrain innovation in the pharmaceutical industry are more that companies have found that paying lawyers to build patent portfolios from previous work is more profitable than hiring scientists and engineers.

    We're finding that entertainment industry executives are even less safe technology gatekeepers than trial lawyers ever were. If he wants to point a finger, he should look to his own employers.

    3) Create a culture that blames the other guy for everything and discourages any form of individual self-restraint or self-control. Promote litigation to punish tobacco companies on the theory that they compel innocent people to smoke. Make it second nature for someone who is overweight to blame the restaurant that served him fries. Encourage a legal process that can kill a drug company for any mistakes in self-medication.

    IIRC, the overweight person got his fat ass kicked in court, and he can't name any drug companies that have gone out of business over a patient's fuckups any more than you or I can. However, the evidence is simply inconclusive. I can cite examples where these cases got tossed out of court and cases where the plaintiffs won.

    Make it a general rule that anyone with more money than a plaintiff is responsible for anything harmful that a plaintiff does. Promulgate the pitiful joke that Americans are hereby exempt from any responsibility for their own actions--so long as there are deep pockets around to be rifled.

    4) Sneer at hard work and thrift. Encourage the belief that all true wealth comes from skillful manipulation and cunning, or from sudden, brilliant and lucky strokes that leave the plodding, ordinary worker and saver in the dust.

    Does anyone know of any examples of people who've gotten seriously rich (say, over $100M) solely by hard work and thrift? It's rather telling that Ben doesn't know of any, either. We know this because he didn't cite examples. Hard work only counts when one is doing the right things, and thrift is only a good thing when one economizes on the right things... i.e. don't spend $1K of your investors' money per employee on office furniture in a high tech startup, and DON'T try squeezing nickels when it comes to picking server hardware when your site is already getting 1M hits a day.

    Make sure that society's idols are men and women who got rich from being sexy in public

    Presumably, he means entertainers. Hmmm... why are we using the badly informed remarks of an entertainer as a basis of public debate?

    or through gambling or playing tricks, not from hard work or patience. Make the citizenry permanently envious and bewildered about where real success comes from.

    Anybody sufficiently interested in finding out can discover where most individual fortunes came from, including the parts the founders of thse fortunes would really rather we didn't know about. Of course, knowing where wealth comes from doesn't necessarily imply that one can make it even if one has the knowledge and talent to create intellectual capital. Knowing who Ann Winblad is doesn't mean she'll give you the time of day, unless you encounter her through the right "insider" VC community channels.

    Hint: If Bill Gates hadn't had substantial family money behind him, would we have ever heard of either him or Microsoft?

    5) Hold the managers of corporations to extremely lax standards of conduct and allow them to get off with a slap on the wrist when they betray the trust of shareholders. This will discourage thrift and investment and ensure that Americans will have far less capital to work with than other societies, while simultaneously developing that contempt for law and social standards that is the hallmark of failing nations. Hold the management of labor unions to no ethical standards.

    Odd that he got that one almost right. Now why did he personally invest in Enron and Worldcom to begin with?

    If he's as well informed as he pretends to be, he'd know that the reason for the spectacular stock swindles perpetrated by Enron, Worldcom, and many other companies was reduced oversight by the SEC, which the Bush Administration insured by gutting the agency's funding. Corporate leaders will cheat if they can get away with it, that's why the SEC was invented in the 1930s. Why is he putting Ben Stein's money into funding the GOP if he really believes there's a problem?

    6) While you're at it, discourage respect for law in every possible way. This will dissolve the glue that holds the nation together, and dissuade any long- term thinking. Societies in which the law can be clearly seen to apply to some and not to others are doomed to decay, in terms of innovation and everything else.

    No argument here. However, he's a former scriptwriter for Richard Nixon, who left the White House barely in time to avoid public trial for "high crimes and misdemeanors". The GOP is the very center of the cultural imperative that says the law is for everyone except the wealthy. A good argument, but is he really the one to make it?

    7) Encourage a mass culture that spits on intelligence and study and instead elevates drug use, coolness through sex and violence, and contempt for school. As children learn to be stupid instead of smart, the national intelligence base needed for innovation will simply vanish into MTV- land.

    Still whining about youth culture after all these years. I guess he figures that he fooled the public during the Nixon era with this, (the 1972 Nixon campaign was basically an attack on youth culture) he can still get away with it. He will be happy to know that the current version of youth culture is just as likely to turn out amoral suits to provide the kind of "innovative" business leadership he seems to be looking for as any idealism out of the hippie era.

    The PC he presumably typed these grave pronouncements on and the ones we're reading and writing this on are as much a product of the 1960s youth culture as acid rock and love beads. Those of you who are too young to remember this from being there can pick up the history from Hackers by Stephen Levy. Though looking at pictures of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak around when they started Apple should give you the idea. Those of you who are a bit older will remember when I say Whole Earth Catalogue gave Homebrew Computer Club its startup funding. And the world indeed changed as a result.

    What will the current participants in the current revision of youth culture come up with in the way of technology? There are more young computer programmers around than in any time in previous history, and most of you are probably here. Isn't it sad that Ben Stein doesn't like your musical tastes?

    8) Mock and belittle the family.

    Last time I heard, The Osbournes are still the hottest show on TV... the family might not be the one that Ben Stein grew up with and Ozzy Osbourne isn't exactly Ozzie Nelson, but the family actually seems to work.

    Provide financial incentives to people willing to live an isolated existence, vulnerable and frightened. This guarantees that men and women of sufficient character to bring about innovation will be psychologically stifled from an early age.

    Let's be polite here and figure that he botched this one on the basis that he stopped doing his own income taxes as soon as he could afford to do so, probably in the early 1970s. The rest of us need only flip through our form 1040 booklets to figure out what tax breaks families get that singles aren't eligible for.

    9) Develop a suicidal immigration policy that keeps out educated, hardworking men and women from friendly nations and, instead, takes in vast numbers of angry, uneducated immigrants from nations that hate us. This, too, leads to the shrinking of our knowledge base and the eventual disappearance of social cohesion.

    He's never heard of H1B and we're supposed to take his pronouncements on how immigration law works seriously? Perhaps Forbes should have gotten Madonna or Eminem to write the article instead. I don't see how they could have done a worse job. Where the hell does he think the casual labor that keeps his yard in good shape comes from, under a cabbage patch?

    10) Enact a tax system that encourages class antagonism and punishes saving, while rewarding indebtedness, frivolity and consumption. Tax the fruits of labor many times:

    First tax it as income. Then tax it as real or personal property. Then tax it as capital gains. Then tax it again, at a staggeringly high level, at death. This way, Americans are taught that only fools save, and that it is entirely proper for us to have the lowest savings rate in the developed world.

    We also have the lowest total tax rate in the developed world once all these layers are added up, and those who invest as companies in technological businesses can pick up an R&D tax credit. If he were qualified to speak on technological innovation, he'd know it.

    This will deprive us of much-needed capital for new investment, for innovation and our own personal aspirations. It will compel us to ask foreigners for ever more capital and allow them to own more of America. It will also promote an attitude of carelessness about the future and, once again, encourage disrespect for law.

    Tell that to Bill Gates. Fortunes are still being made in America. Though Gates doesn't have much to do with innovation, there are others who've made high-tech fortunes in the system he condemns, and a whole lot of us who'd be happy to give it a try given access to venture capital.

    11) Have a socialized medical system that scrimps on badly needed drugs and procedures, resorts to only the cheapest practices and discourages drug companies from developing new drugs by not paying them enough to cover their costs of experimentation, trial and error.

    Which country does he think he lives in? The USA has the most expensive medical system in the world on either a per capita basis or in terms of total dollars. Attempts to introduce universal health care have been uniformly squelched by millions of dollars spent by the US health care industry and in particular, insurance companies who would be forced to stop profiting from health care if the US health care system became "socialized".

    12) Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism--and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women--to an equal status with technology in the public mind.

    With the exception of the Xtian fundamentalists, all the groups he's whining about are very well represented in technological innovation. Anyone who doesn't quite get this should try googling for:
    technopagan VRML

    Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable.

    If he'd had the guts to go after fundamentalist Christians pushing "Creation Science", I'd agree with him. As far as I know, this is the only significant example of religion overriding science that's going on right now.

    My list need not end here.

    Would it be uncharitable to suggest that it ended because he'd run out of ideas? Perhaps a few more hours of listening to Rush Limbaugh would have given him some.

    But I stopped at a dozen because I realized that this is already, in large measure, the program of so many of our elected representatives. The debauchery of our tort system is already in place, and the rest of the agenda is under way.

    The only agendas I see in progress right now are that of restricting civil liberties in the guise of "protecting us from terrorists" and the Hollywood content cartel's anti-tech agenda. Either are as dangerous to America's ability to innovate and compete as the decline of public education. Ben Stein deals with neither. If Ben Stein got paid for this article, Forbes should retract the article and try to get their money back from him.

    Ben Stein was practically the only GOP contributor among the ranks of Hollywood entertainers, look him up [opensecrets.org]. (search under individual donors, enter STEIN, BENJAMIN)

    Benjamin J. Stein is a lawyer, economist, writer and actor, and host of the game show Win Ben Stein's Money.

    If Ben Stein ever devotes a show segment to public policy and has an honest judge score the contestants, he's going to lose a bunch of Ben Stein's money. The guy does have style, but I never realized before reading his article how little he's got to back it up with.

  • I think he stated to obvious by tacocat (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @05:44AM
  • Not a Technology Article by oldstrat (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @06:40AM
  • Technology Regulation Kills by werdna (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @06:45AM
  • That's the way US works by rednaxel (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @07:18AM
  • It's sad to see so much anti-American sentiment by Kalewa (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @07:49AM
  • Just ban immigration for research and high tech... by Per Abrahamsen (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @07:50AM
  • Ben Stein's Nonsense by evodas (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @08:36AM
  • The real reason, probably,... by budalite (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @08:37AM
  • What Ben Stein Wrote: by AB3A (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @09:28AM
  • "Contempt for school" by seven89 (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @10:40AM
  • If he'd only been a more interesting Econ teacher. by Hubert_Shrump (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:35PM
  • Whithering (away) by danarothrock (Score:1) Wednesday December 25 2002, @07:38PM
  • Slightly OT by ninewands (Score:2) Thursday December 26 2002, @08:42PM
  • Re:Fuck you by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:28PM
    • Re:Fuck you by thomas servo (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @07:00AM
    • Re:Fuck you by ChrisNowinski (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:00PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:U.S. technology is sitll number one by xo0m (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:30PM
  • Re:Bleh by mph (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:46PM
  • Re:Bleh by Kevin Stevens (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @04:47PM
    • Re:Bleh by Fizzlewhiff (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:18PM
      • Re:Bleh by Kevin Stevens (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:36PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Ben Stein by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:52PM
  • Re:Ben Stein by Fill Dirt (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:55PM
  • RTFA (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ender Ryan (79406) on Monday December 16 2002, @04:55PM (#4901694) Journal
    You apparently didn't read the entire article, as Mr. Stein pretty plainly said that mysticism and religion, etc. are getting in the way of things in America.

    He in no way said anything Right-Wing, he simply spoke of fiscal responsibility, aligning with neither extreme.

    [ Parent ]
    • Re:RTFA by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:06PM
      • Re:RTFA by mc6809e (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:28PM
      • Re:RTFA (Score:4, Insightful)

        by bnenning (58349) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:28PM (#4901889)
        Of course, it's disguised, because if he came out and said "Those Damn Schools Spend Too Much Time Talking About African Religion," he'd be branded the bigot he is.


        Actually what he's trying to say is that schools spend too much time on pointless activities designed to "raise self-esteem", rather than actually teaching useful material. But thanks for the perfect example of liberal debating technique: "you don't agree with me, so you're a bigot".

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:RTFA by bcboy (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:06PM
      • Re:RTFA by Iamthefallen (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:42PM
        • Re:RTFA by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @10:19AM
          • Re:RTFA by Iamthefallen (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @10:38AM
            • Re:RTFA by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @11:18AM
            • Re:RTFA by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @11:42AM
              • Re:RTFA by Iamthefallen (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:39PM
                • Re:RTFA by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:02PM
                • Re:RTFA by Iamthefallen (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @03:21PM
                • Re:RTFA by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:13PM
                • Re:RTFA by Iamthefallen (Score:2) Tuesday December 17 2002, @04:23PM
              • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:RTFA by bcboy (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:56PM
  • Equal opportunities by Subcarrier (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @04:57PM
  • by jkujawa (56195) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:00PM (#4901741) Homepage
    What if he wants to be an artist? Why shouldn't he be a doctor?
    Your son is not your property.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Join fingers...let's code for America by Pop n' Fresh (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:01PM
  • Nice kneejerk by bee (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:16PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Ben Stein by DuckDuckBOOM! (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:19PM
    • Re:Ben Stein by ChrisNowinski (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:21PM
  • Re:big business is killing innovation by fitten (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @05:22PM
  • Re:Bleh (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Insightfill (554828) on Monday December 16 2002, @05:23PM (#4901839) Homepage
    There was once a great editorial written about how "their kids learn great in school and employees work very hard, and they're kicking our butt in everything."

    The article was written in the 20's by a British publication about the US.

    These things go in cycles, as each country gets a crisis and a generation gets burned. They work hard and raise their kids in a more stable world. Their kids, in turn, have it way too easy, but the grandparents who originally learned the lessons don't run the country anymore, and the bust, boom, bust cycle resumes. It takes about 60 years to go from one bust to the next. (You can trace back US GDP back to the American Revolution and see this cycle, but it happens everywhere.)

    In the 90s, the Americans looked to the Japanese, and the Japanese soon experienced a banking bust of enormous proportions.

    "The Great Reckoning", while dated, is a great read on this topic, and others.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Bleh by Superfarstucker (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @09:13PM
  • Re:Does slashdot get all of it's articles from far by Adam9 (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @05:28PM
  • Re:cant everybody see the point. by cifey (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @06:16PM
  • Re:Does slashdot get all of it's articles from far by scaramush (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @06:31PM
  • Re:Seems obvious to me! by zentec (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @07:05PM
  • Re:Yourdon is still wrong. by spanky555 (Score:1) Monday December 16 2002, @08:26PM
  • Re:Multiculturists and engineering by cranos (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @08:53PM
  • Re:Seems obvious to me! by geekee (Score:2) Monday December 16 2002, @10:39PM
  • Re:MOD THIS TO TROLL SOMEONE!!! by spanky555 (Score:1) Tuesday December 17 2002, @12:56AM
  • 65 replies beneath your current threshold.
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