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Would You Pay for Steam?
Posted by
Cliff
on Sat Oct 09, 2004 04:47 PM
from the in-the-eventualiity-of-a-subscriber-model dept.
from the in-the-eventualiity-of-a-subscriber-model dept.
dasmurf asks: "Many users have discussed this possibility. Now that Steam has pioneered the biggest online game delivery system to date, is it as simple as that? Read my concerns about the Steam Subscriber Agreement. Has anyone else read this agreement? Should Valve change it? If you love Valve's games but you've never religiously kept an eye on your credit card statement, maybe this will give you more reason. ;)"
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Mirror in case of Slashdotting... (Score:5, Interesting)
Most people dismiss agreements like this. EULA's are probably discarded on a per-minute basis around the world, but this SA is slightly different. First, the games being offered are
not for "purchase" but rather available for "access" via a "Subscription fee". If this doesn't fuel the fear that Valve will turn Steam into a huge subscription-based monster like Evercrack, I don't know what would (I'll leave the debate whether subscription based games are the future or not for someone else - read: don't discuss that here, thx). Even if Valve doesn't morph into a subscription-based system, the usage of the term certainly keeps this open (as if the terms in 4B doesn't). And second, there appears to be a "forced subscription" model in place - meaning that if you don't say "NO" loudly enough, you probably will have to foot a "bleeding from the wallet" fee.
In it, 4A suggests that the end user agrees to maintain up-to-date credit card information with Valve. Other than a pre-authorized payment subscription type plan, I don't know why else that would be required. Section 4B states that Valve offers a 30-day period for announcing changes to their fees and billing methods and that "non cancellation" of their services automatically means you agree to and authorized payment of the new fee(s) and/or billing method(s).
The concern of 4B is not limited to this Steam Powered SA and is apparent in many subscription and pre-authorized payment plans, albeit probably not in the exact wording. And if you're not careful, you may have ended up in this kind of credit card "trap" before.
By "trap", I mean that the credit card owner ends up paying for new and different services he or she may or may not have wanted in the first place. And that redressment, reimbursement, reversal of charges, or credit of any kind is not possible, as stated in the SA. I hate to be cynical, but you can hear laughter from the Swindler's gallery snicking "We've covered our butts, but we've prevented you from covering yours!"
This reminds me of the opt-in/opt-out warefare in the courts not too terribly long ago. The most recent in my memory is the Telemarketing do-not-call plan.
Here's an example of the Valve SA gone bad:
John Doe "buys" the Gold package and gets the merchandise 2 months later, all the while enjoying CS:S and awaits HL2 and other games when they're out. Then, he stops playing Steam games for some reason or other. Maybe it's going to Iraq for 6 months. Maybe he's KIA and his family's a mess trying to get his body back from some third world country. Maybe it's being laid off an no net connection. Maybe he's got a new baby and he has no time for the computer. Maybe his wife has cancer and he doesn't want to leave her side. Maybe he's in jail for insider trading. Maybe he's found a new game and dropped Steam games like a bad habit. Maybe he's just forgotten his password and given up on the damned thing. Or maybe he's installed a anti-spam software, e-mail filters, firewalls, anti-spyware, and disables services and system functions on this computer so that the accumulative effects prevented the announcement of a change in the fees and/or billing methods from ever being read.
Anyhow, Valve's new fee/billing method is not known for months until the credit card bill is examined. While the saavy credit card holder who bought the Gold Package may immediately know where to cancel, the poor widow of GI John Doe might take weeks to find out who the hell Valve is and put a stop to the incessant monthly billing. SORRY, NO REFUNDS!
The first thing you might laugh at is the assumption that John Doe doesn't read his credit card bill every month. Some people watch it like a hawk, and some people aren't as diilgent. It's a fact of life. But is it just to make such per
Re:Mirror in case of Slashdotting... (Score:2, Insightful)
Avoiding company controlled technology (Score:3, Insightful)
Moderation abuse (Score:5, Insightful)
This was posted AC (score 0) and within a few minutes modded down to -1 (overrated.)
Just what's overrated there? Even if it wasn't a particularly good post, at score 0 it was hardly 'overrated.'
In fact I thought it was a very good post. It's exactly what I'm thinking. When they made it impossible to play CS anymore without selling your soul for Steam, I quit playing it. If I were a rich man who could afford to throw thousands of dollars away on a principle, I would have sued them for it - I paid for a game that they then proceeded to make unplayable unless I signed away my rights on a new deal where they hold all the cards.
Am I and the 'overrated' AC above really the only people that care about such issues? Is everyone else here really happy to go along with whatever lopsided agreement some company wants out of them, as long as they get the pretty flashing lights to entertain them?
I guess anyone that fits that description is indeed a 'sucker' and will get what he deserves.
Re:Moderation abuse (Score:3, Informative)
The overrated tag, im
Urgh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, you have to bear in mind that I'm not an idiot and I know how to use my online banking service to check what's going out of my account.
Re:Urgh. (Score:5, Interesting)
First to address the negative billing (We add new stuff and you pay for it unless you tell us otherwise), I've been hit by this wonderful "feature" before, the cable company up in my neck of the woods (thanks Rogers! Go burn in hell for me, wouldja?) practiced it until enough customers made a royal stink in the media about it and the provincial government threatened to step in on their behalf. Nothing like opening up your cable bill to find that you've had 10 new channels for the last month that you didn't want, and were charged $7 for the privilege. And it's only easy to get a refund for that *AFTER* the government threatens to kick the cable company between the legs. Somehow with Steam I don't think there'd be anyone stepping in. It took dozens of people picketing for weeks on end to get action with the cable thing, I just don't see that happening over such a decentralized customer base like Steam's. Steam's agreement IS set up to potentially allow negative billing. That's enough for me to never consider using it.
The subscriber aspect is also not so good. If in fact the software you download only works while your account is up to date, what's the point? I spent $180 over a year and a half playing online games with nothing to show for it the second I closed out my account. I'd feel like a real chump paying to use Steam for 6 months, just using Half-Life 2, and then cancelling and having nothing, instead of taking that same money and buying a box from the local software shop. And also, does this mean that each time you fire up the game it has to authenicate against Steam to see if it's allowed to run? Good luck playing it without a net connection then...
Re:Urgh. (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends (Score:3, Informative)
As it stands I wont pay anything for steam. However, if Valve made Steam for linux I would pay. I would pay... 100 bucks for a lifetime. Or 5 bucks a month. As long as it worked and I get every game.
Meanwhile despite my dual booting I haven't actually played Steam in many months. That will probably change soon with HL2 and all.
License agreemtent. (Score:5, Insightful)
They hit every standard aspect, they own everything, you cant do anything but play the game, and you have no rights. Typical EULA.
My understanding is EULA's can't over ride laws, example put yourself into indentured servitude.
So, I think creating 3rd party programs to work with STEAM cant be blocked by the EULA as its outside the scope of the software use.
Maybe we need a consumers rights bill for software. We finally got one for spyware in the US.
Re:License agreemtent. (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder if it a lot of it is just some legal waffle produced by some solicitors; Valve has often openly accepted (and encou
For... what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Half-Life
Sign up for a subscriber system from a company with a track record of one game? Yeah right. Valve hit the gold mine with Half-Life, but thus far they've proven to be nothing more than a company with producer problems and a sell-out who resorts to buying player-made stuff to support them.
Re:For... what? (Score:5, Insightful)
So, if the choice is so limited, why even bother? It'd like be going to a supermarket and paying to use a cart than only lets you bring home 10 products. If Steam let me download any game i wanted, make sure it stays patched and assures me i'd be able to play it no matter what (even if i cancelled my subscription), i would consider it. But no thanks.
bah! (Score:5, Funny)
If you don't get it, reread it!
Fortunatly (Score:3, Interesting)
That being said Raven Shield is heading for the $19.99 bin and bullshit with extra "content packs" aside it's a brilliant game.
I got a copy of HL2 for free but I won't be using it until I'm damn sure they won't want credit card information.
The sad thing is that people will never have a game they can play nostalgicly, they will never have the option of being without steam. Why would you trust these people? They are trying to move away from Vivendi and ensure that they have a ton of money to start publishing for themselves.
On top of that you are playing MODS these were created by people who theorertically loved the gaming community, now they are thinking of doing it for a living! How many people who contributed to making CS, DOD, Natural Selection and other things that allowed this state of events will never be payed? In fact their hard work was flushed down the drain with the arrival of Steam.
Mod makers I beg you develop for a free platform! There are engines out there you can use for free!
Re:Fortunatly (Score:3, Informative)
Go ahead and use it. Once you have Steam installed, all they ask you for is the code printed on your coupon. I did it, and Steam reports
open-source steam (Score:4, Interesting)
With this system finished and used by major game studios, all games would be developed faster and run on any major platform without any modification. I'd be willing to pay a subscription fee for that. Not Steam -- I have Doom 3, I don't care about CS, so HL2 is all I need -- I'd subscribe for a week, then lose it.
SECOND biggest online game delivery system? (Score:5, Funny)
Second to BitTorrent, of course.
Paying For Steam (Score:3, Interesting)
typical unfounded conspiracy fears (Score:3, Insightful)
Suppose that I had purchased HL2, regardless of what's in the EULA, I find it hard to understand how could they charge me without my authorization. Did you know that a typical credit card charge-back fee paid by merchants is $60.00? If Valve decided to sneak in an automated charge, how many people do you think would issue charge backs. Do you really think Valve could afford this along with the accompanying negative publicity?
Too much FUD. (Score:4, Informative)
2) They won't be able to charge you for something you don't specifically agree to, i.e. a game "subscription" or similar.
3) If you agree to a subscription and paid via credit card straight to Steam, then you've just bought yourself a contract that says they'll take out next month's money next month. My ISP does the same, so do my hosting providers, etc. what's the difference?
4) If they suddenly start changing ALL games on Steam over to subscription, bye-bye 90% of their users, hello some other 3D FPS.
5) (quite a minor point considering 2 and 3)... how would they automatically charge my credit card when there's not one registered on the account? Answer: They can't. Buy the game in-shop, install and you don't ever need to enter anything but a CD-Key.
Don't blow this out of proportion, it's no worse than any other EULA and it's all there in black and white and has been for a long time..
Dry, high-enthalpy steam preferred (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Counter-Strike 1.5 Server setup Howto-not (Score:4, Informative)
Run the latest version to rid yourself of these niggles.
Its called progress.
Re:Counter-Strike 1.5 Server setup Howto-not (Score:3, Interesting)
In norway a WON2 network (emulated WON servers) has been s
Re:Counter-Strike 1.5 Server setup Howto-not (Score:3, Funny)