Open Source on Windows - Boon or Bane for Linux? 896
A not-so anonymous Anonymous Coward puts this tough issue up for discussion: "There seem some more
determined
efforts underway currently
in some corners of the KDE project to port substantial parts of the software
stack to the MS Windows platform. These efforts are now met by fierce resistance on the part of some of their core developers. Aaron J. Seigo summarizes his reasoning in his blog:
'If the applications people want are available on Windows, they will tend to stick with Windows...by porting software to Windows, we eliminate the
majority of the competitive advantage of Free Software desktops in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of consumers while Microsoft has all the rope they need to shut the door once again on us ... Free Software desktop applications on Windows represent a no-win situation for Open Source, but
Open Source desktops on Free Software operating systems do.'" (Read more below.)
"Does it hurt the 'Linux to the Desktops!' battle fanfare, if Linux apps and other OSS are ported on a large-scale to MS Windows,
or will it rather have a 'pave the way' effect? Does it help to migrate enterprises and public sector units if users to Linux if users are already familiar with Firefox and OpenOffice.org from Windows, or does it take away the motivation to migrate at all? Is porting Unix desktop software counterproductive? Does it even help Microsoft and damage Windows users?"
Platform or application? (Score:5, Interesting)
If KDE is a platform then it's a win for FOSS.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Disclaimer: More recently, I have migrated to OS X as my primary platform, and I use very little cross platform software here since it rarely integrates well with the rest of the system or follows the HIGs. Windows and *NIX users are easier to please with cross platform software since programs that don't fully conform to the platform's UI guidelines are the norm.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
My concern with open source applications under Windows is the quality. From what I've seen, the open source applications were usually developed under Linux, then ported to Windows. Many times, the Windows port isn't close to the quality of the Linux version, probably because fewer people are developing and testing it. I can imagine Windows users saying, "If this is open source, I don't see what the big deal is."
So I think porting the many great open source applications to Windows could be a great introduction to open source, but only if the quality is maintained.
Firefox is currently ripping IE a new one, and that's a good thing. From what I've heard of the Windows version, it's as good as the Linux version. Open Office on Windows didn't seem nearly as good as the Linux version, but it still beats paying for MS Office, so it has a good following. But it doesn't adequately convey the positive experiences I've had with open source applications running under Linux.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's the best praise I can give Firefox: I cannot tell which OS I'm using it on until I start downloading a file.
They did a terrific job.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Interesting)
Off-topic, I know, but anyway: what was the major point that qualified your Linux distros as not usable, and how did your FreeBSD desktop solve those? I mean, there are reasons to choose FreeBSD over Linux (not compelling for me, but YMMV), however this is probably the first time I hear somebody say FreeBSD would be usable on desktop, while in the same sentence claiming Linux is not.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Interesting)
The second thing is sound. I usually have some music playing in the background (e.g. XMMS)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmm, sounds like an Aqua/GTK and Aqua/QT wrapper would be a pretty significant thing. I build a great deal of my favorite OSS apps under my OS X environment, and have always thought that this would be a nice feature. Granted, the X11 shock dosen't affect me because I worked almost all summer for tow summers on Tru64 (which was a shcok from Linux/Gnome2 =P)
Apple did a _beautiful_ job at this with their Aqua/Swing wrapper for Java. (My Swing based Java applications look exactly like OS X applications, an
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is an honest line of questions, not a troll. Why do you release your code? What is your motivation? Do you hope to reap the rewards of many people's hard work, and contribute to projects that you use in order to keep things heading your way?
Has the OS movement's hatred for Microsoft overwhelmed their perceived goals?
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of the "Microsoft hate" is because Microsoft threatens the very existence of OSS; "winning over" a decent section of the mindshare to OSS will help to prevent this.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, getting stuff to be cross-platform worked so well for OS/2 (win32 subsystem) and Mac (getting MS to port all the MS software to Mac) ... OS/2 is dead, and Apple pretty much had to reinvent the Mac for MacOSX, and, even then, needed a MS-based infusion of $$$.
To be honest, I remain unconvinced that getting FOSS running on Windows is either good or bad for MS. OOo specifically is good (since MSOffice is one of the two largest money grabs MS has, with Windows being the other). The rest? I'm kinda thi
The Gnu Manifesto (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft doesn't need ammunition, and it doesn't need help to cause problems. They are far, far more influential and backporting to Win32 just gets them nice and irritated. For instance, "Hi, umm, Microsoft Support? Yeah, I'm trying to run this program called Gimp, and it seems to keep erroring out because of XYZ." Could you imagine flooding their phone lines with calls for OSS apps. It'd drive them bonkers.
So I say, keep it coming. Port everything, just make sure the Linux version still works since that's the one I'm going to use.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Insightful)
User: "Hi, umm, Microsoft Support? Yeah, I'm trying to run this program called Gimp, and it seems to keep erroring out because of XYZ."
Microsoft: "That's because you're running software that is incompatible with Microsoft Windows. Most so-called 'open-source' software is not fully compatible, and can cause problems."
User: "Really?"
Microsoft: "Of course. How can they possibly afford error-chrcking, compat
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Free Software doesn't have a coherent set of goals. Ask any three Free Software hackers why they write Free Software and you are likely to get five answers. What Free Software has is an economic model that works.
Take Linux, for instance. What are the chances of an undergraduate student from Finland being allowed to hack on a commercial operating system? None, there is no chance that anyone would have give Linus a shot at meaningful work on a commercial operating system when he first started hacking Linux. Once Linus did write Linux what were the chances of Linux being able to compete with the various and sundry commercial operating systems if Linus charged people money to use it? No one would have paid money for early versions of Linux, and no one in their right mind would have even played with Linux had it not come complete with source code distributed under a permissive license.
Fast forward a few years and Linux is slowly crushing the life out of commercial operating systems, and it continues to do so with hackers that wouldn't have a prayer of getting a shot at meaningful work in the commercial software world. Marcelo Tosatti was maintaining the 2.4 kernel as an 18-year-old high-school student in Brasil. What are the chances of Sun or Microsoft giving that kid a job. Yet Marcelo has been making money writing Linux software since he was 13. He's currently employed by Cyclades. Linus, and most of the other kernel hackers, are also doing far better with Free Software than they would have been had they followed more "normal" career paths. You see, that's the little secret of Free Software, most of the folks writing Free Software get paid to do so. Those that don't get paid directly usually get indirect financial benefits, and they can at least use their Free Software success as a calling card.
The end result is software that is cheaper to write and maintain than conventional software written by folks that get paid to do what they would probably do for free.
The reason that Microsoft comes into the discussion has very little to do with the "goals" of Free Software and everything to do with the fact that Microsoft is doing everything in their power to maintain the status quo. Microsoft has built their business around an economic model that requires huge profit margins, and the Free Software business model is destroying those margins. Microsoft controls the computer market, and they are using their current market dominance to drive their incompatible file formats and incomprehensible protocols. Free Software hackers simply want their software to get used (for a variety of reasons, many of which are economic), and Microsoft stands in the way of this goal.
This isn't saying that there aren't some Linux hackers that don't *hate* Microsoft, but it's not the hate that is driving Free Software adoption, it's the economics.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:4, Insightful)
First is a social goal: to give people (including the software's own developers!) a choice so that they can choose to use free software instead of proprietary software, when they cannot afford proprietary software or when the proprietary vendor exercises too much control over the user's rights.
Second is a practical goal: to convince enough people, through the merits of the software and the developers who work on it, that investing their time and money in the development of free software is worthwhile and will provide a greater return to them than paying for proprietary software.
Neither of these goals is about control, though some confused people attempt to use the foundations of free software to further their personal goals of coercion.
What about freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Device drivers (Score:5, Interesting)
If KDE isn't compatible with my scanner [sane-project.org] than it's a win for Microsoft.
Currently, Microsoft has the advantage in driver support from the manufacturers of PC peripherals. Many manufacturers refuse to port their drivers to a Free operating system and refuse further to disclose specifications that free software developers would find useful in writing a driver.
Re:Device drivers (Score:5, Insightful)
My scanner hasn't worked under windows since Windows 95/98 (the 95 driver kind of worked under 98, but locked up occasionally), but SANE supports it just fine under Linux; I see no reason to replace it since it's a quite nice true 600dpi flatbed. Indeed, I wound up with it because Windows stopped supporting it (my parents were forced to "upgrade" to a much inferior but newer model about 3 years ago).
Re:Device drivers (Score:3)
There isn't much that can be done about graphics cards drivers (not X drivers); most video card companies won't publish the specs so that spanking-new card drivers can be written: they have to be reverse-engineered and it takes time. That being said, I had to wait a while in 2001, I think, for XFree86 4.1 to come out so it would support my ATI Radeon; I haven't had problems with graphics cards since, though, in spite of going through three other cards and four distros in this span of time.
As for somethin
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is wrong logic. Here is what I think.
1. If the new applications are worse than MS, there isnt much value till they get better.
2. If the applications are better than MS, then people will move to OSS apps and ultimately may pave the way to move to linux
Just remember the following logic:
More options = good
Less options = bad
Isnt this how MS won from Apple and IBM to start with? The only way to win from MS is to give more freedom.
Yours truly,
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Insightful)
Less options = stability
Ask any Apple user about the stability of their system, then think about how many options they have for hardware and software compared to their x86 using retarded cousins.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Funny)
Apple OS X user: Very stable and works with all the Apple hardware I throw at it. It doesn't even do too badly with the non-Apple stuff!
Windows XP user: @#$%^!! Why the hell won't this damn sound card work!!!? I've downloaded the latest drivers from the manufacturer and XP says they haven't been approved for use wi
Re:Platform or application? (Score:4, Insightful)
If KDE is ported to Windows, people will see that there are other options w/o leaving the comfort of the OS they learned first and start using other FOSS. Eventually, Microsoft is going to have so many security holes that people aren't going to trust it. Then they'll know where to go if they haven't already gone there.
I think most people feel "stuck" with Windows, rather than actually liking it. They are comfortable with the UI, though. The only way to change the power structure is to let them know there are other alternatives that are much better than Windows and still operate in very similar ways, thus allowing comfort and change.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Interesting)
The general rule has been that when computers double in speed, the applications they run triple the amount of resources used. WordPerfect 5.1 loaded instantaneously on a 286. OpenOffice Writer takes 10+ seconds to load on a typical modern machine. You won't see enough resources to run Linux as an application layer anytime soon, especially since hard drive throughput seems to be the big exception to Moore's Law.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's say you have a windows machine and then you have these cool cross-platform Open Source apps on it. Let's say you've been using Windows all this while - what would make you want to switch? Why would you want to switch? That's the point he's trying to make.
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Insightful)
If he likes Linux, but wanted to run MS Word, then it would be nice if he could do that too.
Why do we give a fsck what OS people run? Do you get a commission for every MS user that switches to Linux?
Re:Platform or application? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Platform or application? (Score:5, Informative)
Check out coLinux [colinux.org].
Installation is currently somewhat painful if you don't want to use a provided system image, but progress is definately being made.
Colinux + Xming [freedesktop.org] (or your favorite X server for win32) = Windows and Linux applications running seamlessly side by side, with very little performance loss compared to running Linux natively.
(Don't let the last update of May on the front page fool you, check the snapshots [colinux.org] for more recent updates, documentation also updated on the wiki [colinux.org] site more often than anywhere else.)
coLinux can be installed as a system service that starts at boot. Put Xming in startup also, and on the Linux side add whatever you want to startup to contact the Xming session and go.
There's no fundamental reason why someone couldn't make a nice package that sets everything up automatically, it's just that so far as I'm aware, nobody has yet done any targetted application setup this way that I am aware of.
Cheers,
Cross-platformity means no harm (Score:5, Insightful)
If people would try out different compilers they would eliminate non-portable constructs.
BTW, just today I've found a bug in our (proprietary) code which show itself up in tests only using MSVC 6.0. With GCC on various platform and MSVC 7.1 it wasn't caught by tests, but potentially it can cause app to crash. And we have reports from our testers about misterious crashes.
So, putting effort into porting code to as many platforms as possible would undoubtely lead to better code.
It is also possible that there would came bunch of developers who know at least two operationg system s - Linux and Windows. Most messed up code is written by people who never programmed for more than one OS.
When you're not the front-runner... (Score:5, Insightful)
I do think this debate reeks of some exclusivity, however.
If you're the industry leader, you can afford to ignore different market segments - at least temporarily. OSS is still essentially second to Windows, at least in terms of mass-market adoption.
Also, ignoring a market out of concern for some sort of "ethic" in programming creates an air of "holier-than-thou" - something that many already sense from the open-source crowd. While it's not really the case, that doesn't erase the perception. To get someone to jump to your side they have to feel like they'll be "accepted"... just look at all the companies that choose to be Microsoft shops to placate investors. Exclusivity doesn't encourage that.
Competition (Score:5, Insightful)
But competition is a good thing.
Similar software on Linux and Windows makes it easier to move users from Windows to Linux... it's the OpenOffice argument.
Re:Competition (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Competition (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. I use linux for my servers, because it's the best choice for what I want them to do. I use Windows for gaming, because it's the best choice for what I want to do.
I refer to myself as platform agnostic. I don't much care what I'm running as long as it gets the job done. Putting these apps on windows can increase the base of developers who contribute. It can expose more people to Free Software. It can force Microsoft to step up and provide a better OS because they want to keep their users. In the end the users win out because they have more choices and better offerings to choose from.
LK
Re:Competition (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Competition (Score:5, Insightful)
And don't forget about gaming. Until something major happens to bring Linux some big, big game support, you will have lots of people that will be right on the edge of switching or that will stick with dual-booting.
nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:nonsense (Score:5, Funny)
A) they won't realize thier stuff is available and designed for Linux.
B) they wil be content to get some free (gratis) software and be able to easily install all sorts of junk.
C) when the software is not windows centric and so "non-intuitive", they will be turned off Free (libre) software.
It might seem contradictory but it is how people think. My parents have a linux desktop and they do not suffer from any of the spyware problems all thier friends do, but when the scanner stopped work they were quick to bitch how it was a Linux problem.
Now they were getting a message about no scanner detected. I advised them to check the connections but they claimed everything was fine. I go over and check it out and see the dc adapter is unplugged. If a device is not getting power it is not going to work.
Re:nonsense (Score:3, Informative)
I'm still having sound problems, but other that, I'm happy. And it's because of the applications that ran on Windows.
Re:nonsense (Score:3, Interesting)
Only if software is ported both ways. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Only if software is ported both ways. (Score:3, Informative)
If you want commercial enterprises to develop software for linux, three things need to happen:
1) A significant number of the potential users of the software need to either be on linux or plan on moving to linux within 6-12 months.
2) The development tools need to be useable now, with minimum fuss. Trolltech license for commercial software is a problem.
3) The software vendor needs to be able to insure that software cannot be installed on multiple machines.
4) Software ven
Re:Only if software is ported both ways. (Score:3, Informative)
It's just accounting software now... And that's a big hurdle.
Wrong Argument (Score:5, Insightful)
At the end of the day, its about everyone having the best computing experience possible, not whether they use Linux or not.
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:5, Insightful)
It excels in certain niches (server backends and embedded systems), and is woefully inadequate in others (just about anything that requires user interaction).
To me the underlying OS kernel should be irrelevant. I should be able to use KDE on an NT kernel, or a Window's desktop overtop of a linux kernel, etc..
The kernel is just one small piece of software, with a whole bunch of artificial value attached. In the end all it does is send bytes back and forth to the hardware. Only zealots and businessmen cheer for a particular kernel. IBM cheerleads for linux because they plan to make a buck out of it, but frankly, it accomplishes nothing that the NT kernel or BSDs couldn't do.
The applications are what actually does anything. Whether it's Apache or mysql or Tux Racer. Who really gives a shit about the OS? It's about as relevant as the brand of mouse you're using.
I look forward to the day that people dont list experience with "Linux, Windows, OS-X" on their resumes and instead just say "can use computer".
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:5, Insightful)
it's not about "Freeness politics", and it's not about open source (this isn't just about KDE) being on a closed source platform. nor is it about moving everyone to Linux or any other given OS.
the issue is creating long term viability for Open Source desktop software, which requires being able to develop and run that software, having a user base that large enough to be sustainable and satisfying that user base.
the whole point of the blog was that Windows, in specific, is not such a place in the mid-to-long term.
this has nothing to do with it being a closed source platform (after all, what's Solaris or AIX?) and everything to do with it being the platform of a company who competes very aggressively and effectively on their own platform.
to understand why that is the case, you may have to actually read the article
but those posting about "transitional apps" or "choice" or "stupid free software hippies" are talking about something almost completely different than what i wrote about.
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to open your source code and let others use it freely, then somebody is going to port it to Windows. Asking whether it helps or hurts Linux in particular or free software in general is moot.
Let's say it hurts free software. What is anybody going to do about it? Close the source? Prohibit its use in Windows? Either way, you'd "kill" free software as it exists today. It would be effectively the same as closed source software, except for a small club who doesn't run Windows (just as there's a small club for whom Windows is effectively "open source").
If you are required to kill yourself immediately if you are HIV positive, would you bother getting tested?
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:3, Insightful)
There are more reasons to switch than just apps. The big one at the moment, and one of the big reaons that Firefox is getting big attention is security, and *nix wins hands down on that pretty much every time (pretty much... I'm looking at you Lindows..). Also there's the cost Windows, especially for business and government.
What about the big business and government desktop migrations that are starting by migrating people from Office to OO.o, and
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wrong Argument (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a key area underlying that goal: adoption of open standards.
If there's an incredibly popular platform X whose applications use mostly open standards, then the interopability challenge is generally minimal to make a similar app on (or port to) another platform.
Consider this: if the most popular applications on Windows used open standards, then people who wanted to use Windows could do so; those who thought it sucked could move to another platform, be it Mac, Linux, or BSD, with minimal transfer costs. Why minimal transfer costs? Because their documents, music, and videos are in formats easily readable by a number of different applications. The openly-documented network protocols they would have used on one platform could be implemented just as well on the next. All you need is someone to write the application.
So this brings us back to the question that the article asked: is OSS on Windows good for Linux? Well:
* Open source software tends to favour open standards.
* If the OSS apps use them correctly, then an increase in the popularity of OSS apps on Windows increases the adoption of open standards on Windows.
* These open standards may well be in use already on other platforms. And if they're not, just go ahead and code them: no patents or NDAs are stopping you.
* The Windows user who uses OSS apps now has an easier time moving to another platform, should they wish.
* Everybody's happy, apart from proponents of Vendor lock-in.
So the answer is... yes.
Pave the way.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep, theres the rub with OSS (Score:5, Insightful)
The underlying OS should be less and less relevant as time goes on. It shouldn't matter whether you're running on Linux, Darwin, NT, BSD.. Well-defined and implemented standard APIs should let you easily recompile and run the same apps anywhere, without some bloated Java runtime or CLR in the way.
But no, we have petty "M$ is teh bad deval!" bullshit further fragmenting what is a relatively small talent pool to begin with. What goal are people working towards? If it's really as simpleminded as "destroy Windows", it'll never be reached.
So keep KDE "GPL OS only", and when the OS itself becomes irrelevant, so will all OS-specific apps.
Re:Yep, theres the rub with OSS (Score:3, Interesting)
Unfortunately, something like KDE is in a way part of that operating system itself - while porting, say, the rendering engine of Konqueror to Windows and giving it a Windows front-end could be useful, a full-scale port of Konqueror with all the KDE support libraries underneath would frequently involve reinventing and replacing w
It's hurting Linux, not OSS (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's hurting Linux, not OSS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's hurting Linux, not OSS (Score:3, Insightful)
And by "free systems", name one other than Linux that is commonly used as a desktop OS.
Make it buggy as hell (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Make it buggy as hell (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, a hard one to answer... (Score:4, Insightful)
However, people using Firefox and Open Office will switch to Linux faster, because it won't be all that different!
Once all of the applications are available on both operating systems, people will just choose the best operating system.
That would be... the most secure and stable one! Right?
Well, almost.
If we can get Linux as user friendly as windows (ah, we're almost there!) and make all applications available on both operating systems... They'll choose Linux.
I know my mom would... And if my mom would do that, everybody would!
Re:Ah, a hard one to answer... (Score:3, Insightful)
As for people choosing Linux, most people neither know nor care what operating system they use, but they know that everyone else uses Windows, so they probably ought to do that too. Sure, your mom may choose Linux, but not eve
Re:Ah, a hard one to answer... (Score:4, Insightful)
Haven't done any tech support or helpdesk work lately, have we?
Maybe you've been lucky enough to work somewhere where all the users are pretty savvy, but the clueless are still out there in droves.
I completely disagree. (Score:5, Insightful)
Once people are used to apps, it doesn't matter what OS is underneath. Get people hooked on the OSS stack, and sooner or later, they'll realize that they could run the same great software without paying microsoft for the privledge.
Easier Transition (Score:3, Insightful)
FOSS a restrictive culture? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's people like this that get misquoted and give the FOSS community a bad name.
Familiar apps (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is better: to say "if you move to Linux you can keep using Firefox" or "if you move to Linux you'll have to stop using IE"?
There is a much lower barrier to entry for Linux if users are already familiar with its apps.
Re:Familiar apps (Score:3, Interesting)
I would have to see some facts before I can really accept this statement. This is a pretty bold premise to accept. More reasonably they just block web browsing. Sorry but that is the way it works.
"I guess it boils down to whether providing open source to the largest number of people is more important to the movement than upsetting MS's OS dominan
Open source OS's need some 'killer feature' (Score:4, Insightful)
Makes Sense to Me (Score:3, Insightful)
It can only be a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
More importantly, since these applications are now on Windows, and are therefore easily accessible to the masses, the media is starting to report on them, especially Firefox, and not just the geek journals. Invariably, when these things are reported on in the media, "open source," or at the very least "free," is mentioned. Often, Linux is mentioned as an aside in the same story.
All of this means positive free publicity for Linux and Open Source in general. People hear about this stuff, try it, find that they like it, and maybe ask their geeky neighbor down the street what the big deal is. All of this is positive stuff, and taking the attitude that we need to pigeonhole ourselves back into our one geeky platform, and exclude the rest of the software world, is counterproductive.
Transitional Apps (Score:3, Insightful)
But other apps are unnecessary to port like KDE; no discernable advantage is gained by porting it to Windows because the vast majority of users only use about 5% of the operating systems functions thus something like KDE would have only a negligible effect. ASlso since this is a GUI app aimed at end users and not developers so much, this is your target audience and they would not really be switching from Windows for this.
MySQL and Apache are classic examples of transitional apps for developers and both of them are used from a command line or via a text based conf file so again, KDE would only have a negligible effect.
So far, I tend to agree with those developers that there is no point in porting it.
However... (Score:5, Insightful)
The main obstacle to many people adopting Linux is both the lack of familiarity with the OS, but also (and more importantly) a lack of familiarity with the programs they will be using.
Until people adopt and know that they can functionally use Open-Source programs, they will likely never even consider moving to an open-source OS.
Yes, we end up giving microsoft help in the short term. But in the longer term, we let people know that they are no longer dependant on microsoft. More importantly, we get the feedback of designing for a much larger audience, the one we would (I assume) like to cater to in the longer term.
While the primary purpose of open-source is to liberate tools, a definite secondary purpose in my mind is to allow people to actually use them. I'm mostly for open-source because I think it's a real waste of resources to have software being reinvented from scratch over and over again.
What is your goal? (Score:3, Interesting)
What's the motivation NOT to migrate? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's "boiling the frog" in a good way (Score:5, Insightful)
Count me in on anything that makes FOSS omnipresent in the popular mindscape.
There's more than just Windows on Windows (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft makes (or tries to) lots of products. Any market share taken from them is a win. Firefox and OpenOffice.org on Windows are a win, as is Apache on Windows, J2EE on Windows, Perl on Windows, etc. etc. etc.
KDE != Killer App (Score:3, Interesting)
So why did MS port Office to the Mac? (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree OSS on Windows is bad. (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it bad, that Open Office.org is available for Windows? Such a suite opens a customers eyes to the obvious benefits of free software, and impresses them where otherwise they wouldn't believe someone would do that much work would be done for free.
If you ask any Windows user why they don't run MacOS X, Linux or any other operating system, you'll get a reply that, at it's core, is an issue of incompatibility. "Linux doesn't have the games I play", "Linux doesn't have this program or that", "Apple is going out of business.". We might also get an occasional, "Linux is too hard", but what about MacOS X? Linux being hard is only an excuse, to avoid being proven that their application or an equivalent does run on Linux. Afterall, being difficult to use never stopped Microsoft from being successful, or maintaining their position in the market.
Often, I wish that OpenOffice wouldn't even try to be compatible with MS Office. I'm starting to get the reasonable replies, "Well, why should I try OpenOffice if it's compatible? I already bought MS Office or it came with my computer." We have to have some kind of strategic incompatibility. We need to be able to show a end-user, "Look, I can do this, and you can't." I'm not talking from a geek percpective either, an end-user, application level incompatibility. We need cool, useful programs that only run on free environments.
I myself was confronted with this very same problem. Just recently actually. I have been developing a general database/directory/xml program that I aim to GPL, supporting LDAP, SQL, NIS, xml, with migration functionality to and from each system... lots of stuff. I have much of it programmed in Java. Problem is, the program runs just fine on Windows. Runs slow on MacOS X, and might have problems on FreeBSD.
Just last night, I decided to abandon the Java code base, and start looking into GTK2.
It's been my experience that Java has only served as a migration tool from UNIX to Windows. If a project is being migrated to Java, it might be for the sake of having it run on a Windows environment. It's easy to port things to Java, and it's easy to program for Java rather than deal with any system specific API, such as going from Linux + GTK2 to Win32 natively.
A programming language, "write once run anywhere" is a great idea, if there is a rich diversity of environments. If the market is heavy with any single environment, a "write once run anywhere" only serves to benefit the gorilla.
I want to give people a reason to run Linux/FreeBSD or other like OSs to include MacOS X. I want to give people a reason to need to switch to Linux. As hard as this seems, Microsoft has proven it is the way to do it.
Disagree (sort of) (Score:3, Interesting)
WTF?? (Score:5, Interesting)
Look, if you want people to run your software, MAKE GOOD SOFTWARE. Period. Granted, other things have to follow that, but it's a hell of a lot easier to get people to try something that works and stick with it (Firefox anyone?) than it is to force garbage down their throat. Especially without gigabucks to spend on advertising, against a company that spends petabucks on advertising.
And by the way, why is it still considered a viable option to get people to dive headfirst into OSS...platform, OS, GUI, apps, the whole lot at once? What's wrong with just giving them one part at a time? I would think that getting them accustomed to it without having to leave everything familiar and known to them behind at once would be a good thing, not a bad one.
Why is this even up for debate???? (Score:3, Interesting)
Free software is about free software, not linux. If someone wants to port software to any platform whatever I will support them fully. I use windows when I have to and the more free apps I can find the better. I want portablility, reliability and quality in my computers. Spreading/porting or developing OSS for windows is a win-win situation. M$ makes far more money from Office than from Windows, so it stands to reason that getting competition onto the windows desktop is good for OSS.
Microsoft gets valid competition and is forced to make a better product and hopefully lower their prices. Users get a choice. OSS gets more people paying attention. Companies save money. KDE gets more developers and experience with portability.
I really think anyone who wants to use OSS as a tool to beat up on M$ is missing the whole point of OSS to begin with. Sure, we can all rant and rave about how bad Billy is and gripe about the srongarm tactics of M$ but OSS is about codebase, community and progress, none of which give a rats ass about M$.
Microsoft Would Hate And Fear This (Score:3, Insightful)
This is something Microsoft feared with the old Netscape and Java - that these technologies would drain the moat surrounding the prison (Microsoft calls it a castle, but let's be honest and call it for what it really is) and make Windows disappear, relegating it to being just another toolset or API to play with.
If you were Microsoft - would you fear KDE coming to Windows or welcome it? I think Microsoft would fear it - in fact it would worry them deeply, because having KDE ported to Windows makes the Microsoft Windows Explorer desktop disappear. THAT is what most users think of when they use Windows - the desktop. Porting KDE to Windows enables it to operate as a pontoon bridge across the moat to help users find freedom from the Microsoft prison. They can still use all of their Windows programs, yet at the same time get used to a popular desktop used on Linux and BSD. The next step is to wean them from Office and Internet Explorer - a task easily accomplished with OpenOffice and Firefox. And let's not forget that WINE is coming along nicely, so it is conceivable that even certain Windows based applications can make the transition to Linux as well.
Imagine it this way: you're an enlightened IT guy trying to move your organization off Windows. The pointy-headed guys can't bring themselves to leave Microsoft - this product provides a solution to that problem. When KDE is deployed over Windows it will make the full Linux transition less jarring and scary to the guys with the MBA's that failed math class. Over time, users/organizations will become more accustomed to using KDE and when Microsoft rolls out License 8.5 i.e. another rent-increase, the organization will be a hairs breath away from being able to deploy Linux or BSD once and for all.
The wonderful justification for porting KDE to Windows is that... it will eventually make Windows go away rather than strengthen it. A beautiful thing in my book.
Sometimes to accomplish a goal a few minor compromises have to be made along the way, and this frankly is one of them (porting KDE to a closed operating system).
I deeply appreciate the ideological counter-argument against this port, but often principle can blind one from a much bigger picture - which is getting people away from the clutches of an illegal monopoly and leading them into a much better world of Free Software.
Experiences from another Open Source project (Score:5, Interesting)
What we have seen with our own project, the Plone Content Management System [plone.org] is that people very often use Windows as their evaluation platform. Since it is so simple for them to download, double-click the installer and have a Plone site up and running in a few minutes, they actually find that Plone is a good alternative to whatever proprietary solution they are using or considering. They get hands-on experience without the hassle of setting up a separate server to test it.
The most common scenario we see is organizations that are evaluating or currently using MS Sharepoint, and they find Plone as a much more compelling and useful system for them, regardless of cost.
When they can then get rid of the Windows box they purchased to run the other system, and install Linux on it, and not have to reboot the server every night just to keep it stable - they couldn't be happier.
What's the problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
Examples? Sure... Off the top of my head, AutoHotKey [autohotkey.com] is one of the best pieces of software I've found for Windows, and it's entirely open source. It has a thriving user community, it beats its commercial rivals (Automate by Unisyn, for example) in almost every way, and does things that the its competitors can only dream of doing, in a timely and organized manner.
To me, it's proof that open source isn't a bad thing on Windows. Open source is simply a license (in a nutshell), and it should not be used to determine what's released on what platform IMHO. If you truly believe that software should be free, than why is it such a concern when it's ported to a MS OS?
I do agree that porting desktop managers and the like has the potential to decrease the amount of people switching exclusively to Linux, as you can now, for example, reap the benefits of KDE and similar apps (Cygwin anyone), without the need to completely redo your PC setup, but I don't think that open source ports are a bad thing overall.
And really... I think that this whole article is just to stir up the whole anti-MS rage among us Slashdot readers, since none of the debate here will make any difference.
The software's been developed, it's been released as open source, and anyone can port it to whatever platform they want to. No amount of logic, complaining, or rationale can or will change this. Perhaps this discussion should have taken place before the software was released, or the open source licenses were developed, but it wasn't, and so we are where we are.
Now if the discussion were about how to structure future licensing, and or development models, than I think it's a worthwhile endeavor, but why work ourselves up into a frenzy over the license being used as it was intended to be used? The software's free, and anyone can do what they want with it, provided they adhere to its terms, and they make their changes available to anyone who wants them.
Face it... The system's working as it was intended to. Next topic...
It's a Boon no matter what else (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't tell you how many times someone was reluctant to try RedHat Linux simply because they thought it would be piracy. "But it's sold in a box as Fry's!" "Yeah so? You can also download it for free from their site and burn it to a CD yourself... some people just like to have the box, labelled CDs and a manual and that's what you're paying for..." They don't get it. My own brother protested that GPG and/or OpenOffice.org couldn't be used in a business setting because of licensing issues. I thought he was crazy but I checked it anyway... not issues I could tell.
People REALLY don't want to believe it's real because it flies in the face of what they are comfortable with -- software that costs them money.
So in that respect, OSS on Windows is a definite Win for Linux because the more people use OSS for Windows, the more the will later be inclined to using Linux since it will eventually run all of the software to which they are accustomed....just more stable, less vulnerable and a lot more cool.
Company A and City B might be adopting OSS into their systems but it works side-by-side with other "custom apps" that are deployed in various places. It's not at all unusual to have unusual software in a business setting...it's getting into the home and casual user that I think is the biggest blocker right now. I'm not sure what the state of "end-user Linux" is right now, but I'm guessing it's not where it should be just yet... could be wrong...
I'm sorry... (Score:3, Insightful)
When did our goal of "Write better, more powerful, freely available software" become "Doing what we can to fuck MicroSoft"?
~D
Boon. (Score:3, Informative)
The vast majority of Windows apps are available only on Windows. You might be able to get some of them working under Linux if you invest in Crossover Office, WineX, etc., but that's a lot more work, not to mention somewhat iffy. So one way (some would say the only way) Windows is superior to Linux is in its ability to run Windows apps.
Losing your favourite apps is a big barrier to switching to Linux. But if people get used to using platform-independant applications, than the switch is a lot less painful.
For example, suppose Bob, a Windows user, uses his computer to run MS-Office, Outlook Express and Internet Explorer. Then for him to switch to Linux would require not only learning a new desktop but a new web browser, word processor and email client. For him, it's worth putting up with the worms and spyware (and paying for the associated removal software) just to avoid the hassle of making the switch.
If, on the other hand, he uses Open-Office, Thunderbird and Firefox, switching to Linux may well be worth it because he's familiar with those programs already and they are available under Linux.
Windows versions of Linux apps (FOSS or commercial) make OS compatibility less important and so reduce the cost of switching.
(As an aside, the original article gets a couple of things wrong. Firstly, Mr. Seigo says that few Windows users have decent development tools. If that's true, it's only because they don't want them. MS bends over backwards to provide development tools. They sell them (instead of giving them away) only because that allows competitors to exist and a wide variety of development tools means more developers. And that doesn't take into account all the FOSS tools that have been ported from *nix. Gcc does just fine compiling Windows code.
(Related to that, he also suggests that Microsoft could freeze out Firefox developers. This is highly unlikely because they can't do that without freezing out all third party developers. If they do that, they may as well just delete the Windows source code and fire all their programmers. The entire software industry will move to another platform, almost certainly Linux, and that's the end of the Windows hegemony.
(Microsoft has no choice but to tolerate FOSS applications on their platform because they need third-party developers. That's Windows' biggest selling point. Any dirty tricks to knock Firefox (or whatever) off of windows will work for maybe a week until someone compiles up a new version, but any commercial program that it breaks in the process will be out of commission for a lot longer. And each time Windows breaks an app, they remove one more reason to stick with it for someone.)
It's usually a good thing (Score:3, Interesting)
A better strategy is to get some Windows users to start using Firefox and OpenOffice --- much easier than forcing them to switch everything at once --- and because of network effects, that will lower everyone's cost of switching to Linux.
Open source apps on Windows *must* come first (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, there very well could be some great Linux/KDE apps out there, but the fact is a vast majority of computer users never see nor use them. So, they turn to their commercial Windows alternatives instead, and the status quo is re-enforced.
Moving to Linux to get these apps is a bit like learning how to swim in the deep end of the pool. The OS is unfamiliar, the apps are unfamiliar, the "package management system" is completely new and different from Windows (and while efficient, is not very intuitive); in short, everything is unfamiliar. I can't think of any killer app that could offset all these disadvantages.
So while the KDE developers may *want* users to move to Linux for those 'killer apps', if no one even knows these killer apps exist, and moving takes a huge committment (and a decent amount of technical expertise), realistically, who will want to move?
In fact, having apps like Mozilla and OpenOffice work on Windows means that if people do choose Linux, they'll feel more at home on the OS with apps they're familiar with. Yes, yes, I know people would cite the whole OS/2 fiasco, but I don't think Windows compatibility killed them - it was their inability to differentiate themselves from Windows that did it. After all, if someone says "well then, why not just get Windows", then obviously OS/2 doesn't offer much above and beyond Windows, does it?
With Linux, it will need not only to be like Windows, but better than it, and not just in terms of security. It needs to be easier and more productive. I'm talking about things at the OS level, like system configuration and package management, not just at the application level. I think it's telling that the two main differentiating factors between Linux distros is their package management system and their system configuration tools. Hmmm... Maybe distros are trying to differentiate themselves because these things are the 'killer apps' of an OS?
But IMHO, these tools do not yet measure up to their Windows counterparts in terms of intuitiveness and simplicity. And that's the main thing that keeps me off Linux. Unfortunately, there's nothing to lead me to think this will be resolved on any distro soon. In the meantime, if app developers would like me to use their app, they should consider porting it.
Battle lines not clearly drawn (Score:3, Interesting)
As evidenced by the title of the article. Is this about the success of Linux-based operating systems, or is it about the success of Free Software/Open Source Software (FOSS)?
At the moment my preferred operating system is GNU/Linux. But I personally could care less about the ultimate success or failure of Linux and GNU per se. What I desire is the victory of FOSS over proprietary software. In fact I see this victory as inevitable. I support it with minor efforts when I can, although seeing the triumph of FOSS as inevitable means I do not feel the need to completely abandon or wage war on proprietary software at present.
The question of FOSS vs. proprietary software makes sense. The question of Windows vs. Linux makes sense. To me, the question of Windows vs. FOSS, posed by the article in the text, does not make that much sense. I desire FOSS to take over not because of anything specific I have against Windows, but because of what I have against proprietary software. If GNU/Linux died but FOSS prevailed through ReactOS (Open Source Windows NT/2000/XP clone, for those who haven't read the news lately), I would be content. (Although only because ReactOS will surely support a POSIX layer and/or Cygwin so I can get the UNIXy goodness I love as a geek.)
The apps I want can run pretty much on any operating system. From /bin/ls to Firefox to perl, I can pretty much make anything run on any hardware under any OS. (At least, as long as I have access to Cygwin. And Cygwin is proof-of-concept to show how these apps could be made to run on an OS that was neither UNIX nor Windows, if such a beast still existed any more.) Thus, the issue of which operating system will win out is not that big a deal to me any more as long as the OS is a free one! Yes, Windows has some design and security issues. But if the winning operating system were a free Windows (either through ReactOS or Microsoft actually releasing Windows as FOSS), it could be fixed by virtue of the fact that it would be free. (Yeah, I know; you and I would prefer to stick with UNIX for many reasons. After all, why reinvent the wheel? But that's a secondary concern to me.)
So, let's look at history for a minute. When Richard Stallman launched the GNU movement, there were no free operating systems for him to build on. (Barring ITS, which I'm not entirely sure was free, and which he recognized would never be acceptable to the general software using public.) So he chose a proprietary operating system that he thought would stand the greatest success and begin to replace it with free software, piece by piece. In the end he replaced almost every component with GNU utilities and, as we know, when development stalled on the GNU kernel somebody else who was interested stepped in and donated a Free UNIX kernel ... and the rest was history. Suddenly the world finally had a Free Operating system (and with three BSDs, AtheOS, FreeDOS, and a handful of other alternatives, the world now has many, many Free Operating systems in various states of viability).
Until such time as a completely Free operating system was available, the GNU project built, tested, and ran each GNU component on proprietary operating systems. In fact it was the attempt to keep such software portable to the vast incompatible variety of proprietary UNIX implementations that led to the development of GNU autoconfig, the program that writes those handy configure scripts some of us use every day.
The general philosophy was that the author or maintainer of a component would make a decent level of effort toward keeping a Free component running on reasonably recent proprietary operating systems, assisted by those who had a vested interest in doing so. If a particular developer thought AIX 3.2 was just too wonky to support, he'd leave it out of the supported systems list and make no effort on it. Anybody else could pick it up and run with it. If their changes to port said component to AIX 3.2 fit in well with the rest
Here's a question... (Score:3, Insightful)
My question is, isn't Firefox's goal more about keeping the web alive as a standards-based system instead of an IE-specific system? The 'gee, maybe I should look at other FOSS apps' reaction just a happy side effect?
To me, Firefox gains undermine Windows dominance because Firefox is creating a bigger market for standards-based web sites. Yes, Firefox adds value to Windows, but it also adds value to other areas even more.
In a sense, Firefox is using a go-ish strategy. Let your enemy win some, but in doing so you (Firefox) win even more. The situation isn't strictly a win/lose scenario that is presented in the blog entry.
Those are my thoughts. Since I'm not following the Mozilla Foundation's strategy closely am I missing something important?
More the better, MS has that monopoly... (Score:3, Insightful)
Changing to Linux isn't hard because they'd lose windows, it's hard because they'd lose all those apps that the can only run on windows.
Everything that people associate with their computer is an application. And 99% of their tasks involve these four "killer" apps:
1. Web browser
2. Instant messenger
3. Office/productivity software
4. Media player.
If great OSS versions of these four apps are available on Windows, and people start using them, then nothing will stop them from switching to Linux.
Mozilla/Firefox is the first step, and it's doing well.
Office/Productivity software is the next step, but I think that will be the biggest challege by far, considering how many people and businesses are stuck with proprietary MS Office documents. And contrary to claims otherwise, many many MS Word documents do not convert perfectly to Open Office.
Instant messenger is already set to go with GAIM, as soon as GAIM starts an awareness campaign, or even without, since there's really no learning curve for AIM users to switch to GAIM. People who switch to Linux won't notice they're using GAIM insteal of AIM.
Media player software is another doozy. There's no linux software out there right now that's as versatile and fully featured as Windows Media Player, and there are no Linux DVD players that match up to windows apps like PowerDVD.
Another alternative is, instead of moving OSS to Windows, move popular windows apps to Linux. This could work for some, like PowerDVD and RealPlayer.
But this would be hard too, since so many of the popular retail apps are from Microsoft. That's the essence of their monopoly... MS Office is a really good set of office tools, but it artificially props up Windows because the company that makes MS Office has a vested interest in keeping it on Windows. There will never be a fair debate within MS on whether it would be profitable for MS Office to be ported to Linux, because while it would be profitable for the MS Office team, it'd be even more unprofitably for the MS Windows team. And that's the essence of their monopoly, and why it would have been a good idea to split the Office and the Wnidows divisions of MS into separate companies.
Re:More the better, MS has that monopoly... (Score:3, Interesting)
HUH??!! Obviously you've never used MPlayer [mplayerhq.hu] before. Show me one player, under Windows that will play Quicktime, RealMedia, RTSP, DVDs, VCDs, SVCDs, any type of AVI, Mastroka, OMG, MP3, MP4, AAC, ... Shall I go on? You would need a handful of programs under Windows to do all of the
this shows the distinct line between the two types (Score:3, Insightful)
Free code is good for everybody camp
and the
we h473 M$ camp.
Re:RMS's View (Score:3, Insightful)
I dare RMS to release Hurd under that level of restriction. You'll see that virtually nobody will even touch it simply due to it's ultra-restrictive nature. I have nothing against the GPL, in fact I think it's a great license for the Linux kernel. GPL'ed apps are fine too, but when you start dictating that diff