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Windows Operating Systems Software The Almighty Buck

Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult? 548

Posted by Cliff from the sounds-like-it dept.
Bubblehead asks: "A few years ago, everybody was talking about returning their copy of Windows to receive a refund. I plan on buying a Laptop shortly, and most manufacturers still insist on shipping it with some version of Windows. I was wondering what the state of the affairs is - there isn't that much information on the net. The most prominent piece of information is this 2003 Linux Journal Report outlining how the author had to go to small claims court to receive a refund. Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
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Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult? More

Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?

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  • Your journey starts here (Score:5, Informative)

    by Kimos ( 859729 ) <`moc.liamg' `ta' `todhsals.somik'> on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:34PM (#12180853) Homepage
    Never had the chance to do it myself since I build all my own systems. I've kept this in my Bookmarks for some time though:
    www.windowsrefund.org [windowsrefund.org]

    (In the title bar it says windowsrefund.net, but that site times out. Don't know what that's all about...)

  • How much though? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Greg Wright ( 104533 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:34PM (#12180855) Journal
    How much of a refund would you get? I am guessing that you can not get
    the amount MS changes if you buy XP off the shelf. Do they try and
    determine just what that vendor paid for it or would they try and
    determine how much of the cost of the machine is represented by the OS
    installed on it. That is, the difference between a machine sold with
    XP installed and the same machine shipped with linux or no OS at all,
    for example.
    • I was actually wondering if it would be beneficial to purchase Windows XP Pro if you were getting the refund... Would it more than offset the increased cost? Something tells it it would be unlikely that you would get back extra that way, but I can dream. :)

    • Re:How much though? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by The Amazing Fish Boy ( 863897 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:38PM (#12180905) Homepage Journal
      The article mentions the manufacturer will avoid giving a price, citing "an agreement with Microsoft." However, it goes on to explain that if the manufacturer cannot specify a price, the Judge will likely use the retail price (i.e. $199 USD).

      Which is good, because if Dell (or whoever) starts losing money by only shipping Windows on their machines, they will want to offer Windows-less notebooks.

      • Re:How much though? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by spiritraveller ( 641174 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:51PM (#12181054)
        The article mentions the manufacturer will avoid giving a price, citing "an agreement with Microsoft." However, it goes on to explain that if the manufacturer cannot specify a price, the Judge will likely use the retail price (i.e. $199 USD).

        This is because Microsoft will probably not show up in court to rebut your evidence of value.

        Without any contrary evidence, the judge is going to accept whatever amount you put in your complaint as long as you submit some competent evidence to support the finding.

      • No, they'll just jack the price up all together. They make a killing on that crap to begin with.

      • Re:How much though? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Queer Boy ( 451309 ) *

        Which is good, because if Dell (or whoever) starts losing money by only shipping Windows on their machines, they will want to offer Windows-less notebooks.

        Dell is probably the worst example to use, twice companies have tried to get other OSes installed on Dell machines (Apple in the early 90's with Mac OS for x86, Be in the late 90's with BeOS). I am sure going forth since the DOJ trial new Windows licenses are different but Michael Dell has gone on record stating that they have to pay for Windows whethe

  • Recent experience story (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Humba ( 112745 ) * on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:34PM (#12180859)
    Go ask David Zamos [clevescene.com]

    He tried to return a copy of XP that he purchased at his campus bookstore. First the bookstore refused the return. Then Microsoft refused. So he sold it on eBay. eBay took down the auction, but then later allowed it. Microsoft countered by suing him, and trying to take his 2002 Escort as damages. Good story. I won't ruin the ending.

    --H

    • Good story. I won't ruin the ending.

      He countersued & eventually they settled, David signing an NDA so we'll never know the terms.

    • Re:Recent experience story (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      IIRC, the Escort was one of the only somewhat-good cars Ford ever made, so perhaps Microsoft wanted it to study how people engineer things? Windows is currently at the 1985 Chevy stage of engineering quality, so a 2002 model would be a big help to them.
      • Oh, yeah, the Escort is a great car alright.

        I got pulled over in some rural Georgia county on my way to Florida and the officer tried to say I was doing 98 in a 70. I looked at him and said "98? you do realize this is an Escort, right?" He laughed, started to walk off, and said he'd get his radar gun checked.

  • refund?!? they tried to CHARGE me! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by yagu ( 721525 ) * <yayagu@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:35PM (#12180874) Journal

    About seven years ago I too was looking for a laptop and I wanted one without Windows on it. I won't divulge the vendor's name. After a frustrating attempt to explain my "customization" with the service rep, i.e., a "nude" laptop, he transferred me to his manager.... He at first declined to agree to sell me one, but after a moment, and a pause he AGREED... another pause, then he said, "But we'll have to charge you an extra $100 for it." (I am NOT making this up!) Kind of gives you a relative feel for what value (or negative value) Windows added to that laptop, n'est-ce pas?

    To the post's question, I am in the similar situation of wanting a new laptop... Have found several that are very close to everything I want and need in a laptop, but ALL come with XP Pro -- which I'm assuming adds $100 to $200 to the cost of the machine and I intend to use the machine for linux ONLY.... and I'm not willing this time to ring one up for MS.

    • Why shouldn't he charge you extra? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If you're asking for extra labor, you should pay extra money.

      If all their drives are pre-imaged with whatever selection OSs their inventory system can tolerate, that's good for 99.9995% of all their customers, why shouldn't the guy who wants to be different and have the work done for him pay for it?

      • Re:Why shouldn't he charge you extra? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by yagu ( 721525 ) * <yayagu@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Friday April 08, 2005 @06:01PM (#12181174) Journal
        so, just how do they get pre-imaged? They're certainly not being shipped from the manufacturer (hard drive) that way! They've got staff doing the imaging... highly automated to be sure, but what is it going to take to "not" pre-image one? "Hey, Joe!, don't pre-image that one!" is my guess. And, am I a guy (you're assuming, btw) who wants to be different?, or one who has a specific requirement in a field that should but doesn't have options because of the illegal practices of one monopolistic giant?

        Using a car as an example (I hate doing this) it might be like one tire manufacturer insisting through bullying and manipulating that ALL cars are delivered with their specific brand of tires, even though they are very specific and non-general tires, and there is ample evidence of a market for other types of tires (non-studded, low temp, etc)... It would be an unfair market place if consumers had to pay that "tax" (even if labor were involved to remove and replace said tires with other type) to get a product more suitable to their needs.

        This isn't an issue of people being pissy and making snippy demands, it's an issue of a marketplace gone awry and still not corrected by the tactics still in practice by one giant firm, albeit practiced in a more nuanced and subtle way.

        • I think that assumes there was a choice. The dealer doesn't necessarily handle that, that is often done at the manufacturer level. I don't know if the computer industry has an assembly and inventory method that allows for truly custom choices like this, where they know the unit with serial number ending in 13242 won't have an OS in it. It's not like the auto industry where you can request a build with certain packages, certain paint and so on, from the factory.
    • Just get one of these [linuxcertified.com] if you don't want to pay it. Don't worry, I ain't affiliated. I go to pawn shops and scrounge around for a crappy lappy and throw on whatever flavor I'm interested at the time. Then I wind up giving them away because they're slow and start pissing me off.
      • > Then I wind up giving them away

        Yeah, I'll take one.
    • I've always wondered what would happen you bought it on credit card and did a charge back on windows for the retail value.

    • Buy a Linux-only laptop then (Score:4, Informative)

      by mamladm ( 867366 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @03:52AM (#12185494) Homepage
      So, why don't you buy a Linux-only laptop then?

      Terrasoft Solutions sell Linux-only laptops, desktops and servers using Fedora Core 2 based YDL.

      http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/ [terrasoftsolutions.com]

      They specialise in PPC only, so if you insist on an x86 powered machine then you'd have to find another such shop. I am confident there must be companies just like Terrasoft who specialise in x86 based Linux pre-installed gear.

      In fact, a quick google search for "linux preinstalled laptops" shows the this very interesting site as first hit ...

      http://mcelrath.org/laptops.html [mcelrath.org]

      according to that site, there are plenty of options for people interested in x86 based Linux-only laptops.

  • No windows (Score:5, Interesting)

    by October_30th ( 531777 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:37PM (#12180891) Homepage Journal
    Heh. The last time I asked whether it was possible to buy a laptop without a pre-installed operating system, I was told that selling one could expose the company to litigation. The reason: knowingly selling a non-functional product.

    • Simple answer to that... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by gosand ( 234100 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:53PM (#12181084)
      Heh. The last time I asked whether it was possible to buy a laptop without a pre-installed operating system, I was told that selling one could expose the company to litigation. The reason: knowingly selling a non-functional product.


      Simple Solution: Include a bootable Linux distro with the laptop. It proves it is working, but doesn't alter it in any way. It is about as close to free as you can get (cost of a blank cd). I would, in fact, recommend trying out the laptop with your bootable distro of choice before buying it. (if you can find the model you want in a brick-n-mortar store)

    • Re:No windows (Score:5, Insightful)

      by cowscows ( 103644 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:57PM (#12181130) Journal
      It is functional though. As long as all the parts they sold you work. I can go to CompUSA and buy an optical mouse. It's pretty much worthless without a computer to go with it, but that doesn't mean that it's nonfunctional. My computer came with a CD burner, but no blank cd's. So I couldn't burn a CD without making another purchase, but that doesn't mean my computer was broken.

      That's not a compelling reason at all.

  • Buy a Linux Laptop... (Score:3, Informative)

    by sammykrupa ( 828537 ) <sam@theplaceforitall.com> on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:37PM (#12180896) Homepage Journal
    ....here [linspire.com].

  • Got my refund (Score:5, Funny)

    by murderlegendre ( 776042 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:37PM (#12180898)

    Just got my Windows XP Pro refund from MS last week. Package contained several foreign coins, a coupon booklet, and one human soul.

  • here is what i'm wondering (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Coneasfast ( 690509 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:38PM (#12180903)
    the type of people who would want a refund for their copy of windows is the same type of people who not buy a computer from a manufacturer.

    having said that, why should one have to go through all this trouble just to get a refund, i've seen an article explaining the very same procedure before, will this go on forever?

    as long as the manufacturers can avoid it whenever possible, they will continue to splurt out BS over the phone as long as it's legal and gives them a slight chance that they can avoid the refund.
    • Laptops are not so easy to build-your-own, so you really don't have much choice but to order one from a manufacturer.
      • There are many laptop manufacturers that will sell you a laptop without Windows on it. But they are NOT well known manufacturers like Dell, IBM or Compaq. Instead you need to seek out manufacturers with "penguin" or "daemon" in their name...

        I think the general point stands. The type of people who demand Windows refunds aren't the type of people who buy Dell Latitudes.
    • the type of people who would want a refund for their copy of windows is the same type of people who not buy a computer from a manufacturer.

      This is true in most cases, and I won't argue. However, what happens when we want to get our hands on the latest AMD64 laptop? Our choices are limited. Generally, I just stick with buying XP home, but there has to be a better way, like opting not to buy it at all or selling it on ebay.
    • as long as the manufacturers can avoid it whenever possible, they will continue to splurt out BS over the phone as long as it's legal and gives them a slight chance that they can avoid the refund.

      A round or two of squabbling with a customer probably costs more than an OEM Windows license does. I think the answer is simply that there is insufficient demand to make the manufacturers bother to have a policy. As the submitter said, this was an issue a few years ago and since then has almost entirely dropped ou

    • not many people have the capability of building a laptop
  • This was previoulsy discussed on Slashdot here [slashdot.org] a few years ago.

  • Shouldn't the question be: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by winkydink ( 650484 ) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:40PM (#12180931) Homepage Journal
    Do you value your time so little that it's worth going through the hassle?

    I guess if you're extremely principled, I can see doing it.

    • Re:Shouldn't the question be: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TeknoHog ( 164938 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @06:23PM (#12181408) Homepage Journal
      I'm somewhat principled. In this case, the principle is called market economy.

      In market economy, you don't just buy things to get them for yourself. When you buy a product, you are giving a message to the manufacturer that there is demand, and that you like their products better than their competitors'. Your actions are shaping the industry.

      If I'm forced to buy a copy of Windows I don't want, I'm giving the wrong message to the industry. For example, Linux drivers are not being developed well enough, because everyone thinks everyone uses Windows. It's not quite true, but the industry is getting the message that everyone wants Windows, because of this imbecile policy of OEM Windows copies.

      In the end, I'm doing this because I'm greedy: I want good Linux drivers. It probably helps if I give everyone the message that I prefer to use Linux rather than Windows on my machines.

  • What?? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by surefooted1 ( 838360 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:41PM (#12180937)
    Why would you buy a prefab machine with windows knowing that you didn't want it in the first place? If I buy a car and don't like the rims, I don't ask the manufacturer or dealer for a refund. Don't buy from that vendor. No one put a gun to your head. This is stupid.

    Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"

    The wording of that would lead me to belive that there are vendors that do offer an alternative. So once again...this is stupid.
    • This is not stupid. If you dont like the question dont post. The question is that many vendors do not sell machines without Win preinstalled. This is a genuine question and deserves a genuine answer. I dont have this answer but some people probably do. I for one and interested in the answer.

      I remember something in the EU regarding product bundling. I am not sure exactly so someone can probably explain but I was under the impression that there are rules regarding bundling of products. I mean I am not sure

    • Re:What?? (Score:3, Informative)

      by The Amazing Fish Boy ( 863897 )
      Why would you buy a prefab machine with windows knowing that you didn't want it in the first place? If I buy a car and don't like the rims, I don't ask the manufacturer or dealer for a refund. Don't buy from that vendor. No one put a gun to your head. This is stupid.

      As the article [slashdot.org] mentions, Windows' licensing agreement explicitly entitles you to a refund from the manufacturer.

    • Re:What?? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RealAlaskan ( 576404 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:59PM (#12181161) Homepage Journal
      If I buy a car and don't like the rims ...

      When this was on slashdot almost two years back [slashdot.org], I seem to recall that there were too many dozens of posts making bad analogies to cars and car dealers.

      Folks, computers are fundamentally different from cars, and most other goods[1]. Argument by analogy is a bad plan in general, but argument by bad analogy is a sure-fire disaster. Let's try arguing by logic, or inspecting the entrails of goats, instead.

      I suppose that I've just unleashed a thousand bad analogies which will prove my point while trying to disprove it. Sigh.

      [1]So, why are they fundamentally different? Microsoft's monopoly, the unique dependence on software to make them useful, (and the unique characteristics of that software, relative to any physical good, including computers), the fact that they are general purpose machines to an extent that nothing else is, and on and on. You might find one of these exceptional circumstances in any field, but you're unlikely to find all of them anywhere else. Unless your analogy accounts for all of these and more, it's probably wrong.

  • I got a new FS Amilo Pro a few weeks ago (in Finland), and contacted the importer on my willingness to return the Windows license that I didn't need or want. I rambled a little on the principles of market economy, how I don't want to give MS the message that I like Windows.

    The explanation why they declined was that the OS was a part of the package, just like a hard drive, and people are not expected to be able to return a HDD they don't like. They also mentioned that it's impossible for them to have OS-fr

  • that you're getting an actual Windows cd, and not a manufacturer recovery cd.

  • entitlement? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by wankledot ( 712148 )
    Maybe I'll get flamed for this but...

    Are you really entitled to a refund? Can you take apart any product and return the parts that you don't want? There are plenty of hardware devices (computer and otherwise) that would retain some functionality if you removed part of the system, but do you have the right to pick and choose what you feel you need, and return those that you don't, do you?

    To use the (slightly flawed) car analogy, can I return the spare tire because I don't feel I need it and ask for $50 back

    • Re:entitlement? (Score:4, Informative)

      by rjw57 ( 532004 ) * <richwareham@nOSPaM.users.sourceforge.net> on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:47PM (#12181016) Homepage Journal
      Are you really entitled to a refund?

      Certainly in EULAs up to and including Windows 2000 there was a clause saying that, if you didn't agree with the EULA for Windows, one could take the shrink-wrapped box back to the vendor for a refund. I don't know if the WinXP EULA has such a clause however.
      • And the clause is no longer present in the XP EULA (just read it). Guess you would have to be careful not to buy a machine with XP installed.
    • The reason in this case is that the Microsoft EULA specifically says that you can return the product if you don't want to accept the license. It's just a case of using their own stupid restrictions against them.
    • Are you really entitled to a refund? Can you take apart any product and return the parts that you don't want?

      the diff, of course, is that with computers that include windows, you have to agree to their license OR DEINSTALL IT. if you deinstall it, you should not have to pay for stuff you reject based on license terms.

      there is no such agreement on, say, cd players in cars. if I buy a new car and don't want the cd player, rarely do I get 'credit' for removing it. that was an old old car dealer's trick

    • lawsuit? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gosand ( 234100 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:55PM (#12181112)
      To use the (slightly flawed) car analogy, can I return the spare tire because I don't feel I need it and ask for $50 back?

      No, but you could sell that spare tire without the automobile manufacturer suing you.

    • The car analogy is flawed, because you can order your car with quite a bit of customization.

      For example, when I had to buy a new car (damn soccer moms in minivans not paying attention to where they are going!) I was very clear to the dealer: "No leather seats. Cloth Seats."

      The dealer's response was "But leather seats are on sale right now - no added cost! A $900 value!"

      "No. I do not want leather seats. They take more care than cloth. They are too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter unless they a

    • Not the point - think licenses (Score:5, Informative)

      by Lifewish ( 724999 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:59PM (#12181156) Homepage Journal
      So the guy buys this laptop. However, at this point in time he hasn't accepted the Microsoft EULA for the operating system. This EULA specifically states: "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."

      If he hasn't agreed, he can return it for a full refund. If no-one is willing to give him a refund then Microsoft is in breach of its own license.

      OT: if MS has breached its requirements to a person, is that person then justified in breaching his/her requirements? For example, the one about not decompiling. Just a thought.

      • Re:Not the point - think licenses (Score:4, Informative)

        by miyako ( 632510 ) <miyako AT gmail DOT com> on Friday April 08, 2005 @06:09PM (#12181262) Homepage Journal
        OT: if MS has breached its requirements to a person, is that person then justified in breaching his/her requirements? For example, the one about not decompiling. Just a thought.
        No, just as with the GPL, under copyright law, Microsoft's license is the only thing that allows you to use their software at all, so technically if they breach their license, then you no longer are able to use that license to use the software, and are therefore in violation of copyright.
        Hmmm, maybe this could be a new business plan for microsoft. Breach the license for Windows, thereby invalidating everyone's licenses, then sue the people still using windows over copyright infringement if they refuse to buy another license. (My gods, I should be sure to put this post on my resume for SCO and the RI/MPAA)
      • The problem is that you didn't purchase the software. Dell (or whatever OEM) did and included it in THEIR product to sell to you. The software has no line item value on your invoice.

        If you want to return the software, you have to return the item you bought, ie the computer.

        Suppose you bought a digital camera, and it came with a memory card. You go to return the memory card to best buy (where you bought the camera), but they won't accept it because they didn't sell you a memory card. They sold you a ca

  • Article Text (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:44PM (#12180976)
    Can't get Coral Cache or Mirrodot. Google cache turned up this result:

    http://216.239.59.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahtt p% 3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxjournal.com%2Farticle%2F7040

    --------------

    Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
    By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
    Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.

    Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.

    The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.

    It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.

    Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.

    Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?

    Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.

    Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?

    Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.

    Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?

    Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.

    Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.

    Excuse: The software is only worth $10.

    Answer: Okay. Send me the check.

    Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.

    But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.

    Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?

    You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.

    Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.

    You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.

    One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".

    "Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"

    "I just know it's the right amount."

    "So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."

    Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.

    Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.

    In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a writ

  • Lists (Score:5, Informative)

    by mcelrath ( 8027 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:45PM (#12180996) Homepage
    Tuxmobil [tuxmobil.com] has a list of resellers [tuxmobil.com] that will preinstall linux. However be careful, several of those vendors sell linux laptops by buying OEM ones with windows on it, and then removing windows. (e.g. you're still paying M$ for the privelage of having a linux laptop)

    I also have a page of linux-preinstalled and no-OS laptop vendors [mcelrath.org]. By my count there are at least 20 vendors that sell linux and no-os laptops, so nobody should have an excuse anymore for whining about not being able to find linux laptops.

    P.S. All you currently looking for a laptop...please email me if anything on my list needs to be updated.

  • Hardly .... (Score:3, Funny)

    by El Cubano ( 631386 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:47PM (#12181015)

    Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?

    No. It is practically impossible. Next question, please.

  • To get my refund, do I have to send back the nifty silver-colored drink coaster that came with my laptop?

  • Article Text (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:49PM (#12181029)
    The server is already slow, so here it is:

    Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
    By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
    Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.

    Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.

    The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.

    It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.

    Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.

    Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?

    Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.

    Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?

    Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.

    Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?

    Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.

    Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.

    Excuse: The software is only worth $10.

    Answer: Okay. Send me the check.

    Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.

    But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.

    Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?

    You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.

    Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.

    You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.

    One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".

    "Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"

    "I just know it's the right amount."

    "So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."

    Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.

    Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.

    In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.

    At some point in this process you'll either get your r

  • pick the right vendor (Score:5, Funny)

    by tverbeek ( 457094 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @05:50PM (#12181047) Homepage
    I believe Apple has fairly liberal policies for buying a latop without Windows.

    I hear they're more difficult about OS X refunds, though.

  • ...or you just trying to score points among your friends by bragging about how cool you are for not having paid for a Microsoft product? And is that second of coolness really worth the hassle?
    • ... don't like the mess, then they could stop offering the refunds when one does not agree to the EULA.

      But they will not do it because then they would fall foul of legislation in most places that forbids to tie in sales of one product (computer) only if you buy another (Windows).

      The offer of the refund is not from the goodness of their hearts. Making almost imposible for consumers to get something they are entitled to is immoral and your criticism of people trying to get what is rightly theirs is ridicul
  • Most of the time have no OS.

  • Refund Day (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Jaeger ( 2722 ) * on Friday April 08, 2005 @06:15PM (#12181317) Homepage

    Last summer my wife bought a Toshiba notebook. It came with Windows XP Home and the manufacturer refused to send a real install cd. (Even with a new copy of Windows, though, the system was still cheaper than the other notebooks she looked at with comparable specs; this one cost US$1k, at which point IBM notebooks are barely getting started.) When she opened the bok, a sticker on the shrinkwrap said:

    " . . . Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in any third party License Agreement or product documentation supplied with your PC, TAIS does not accept the return of component parts, or bundled software, that have been removed from the PC system. Pro-rata refunds on individual PC components or bundled software, including the operating system, will not be granted. If you wish to return a complete PC system, contact the TAIS dealer where you purchased the product, and comply with the dealer's standard return policies and procedures."

    So, yeah, Toshiba won't let you return the operating system by itself.

  • Official Gateway line (Score:5, Informative)

    by Belgand ( 14099 ) <belgand@planetfo ... m ['s.c' in gap]> on Friday April 08, 2005 @06:46PM (#12181694) Homepage
    I work in Gateway customer service so here's the official policy on this (and it was hard enough to find when I got hired and was curious so it'll probably be a bitch if you call and get one of the largely incompetent people who work there).

    You cannot buy a computer without Windows on it. We simply will not do it. The way the ordering system is set up we cannot get it to go through no matter how sympathetic we are. Likewise if you purchase the system Gateway has determined that you agreed to the license the moment you power on the system. If you decide not to accept the license they will only accept the return of the software if you return the entire system (this being true of any pre-installed software that you want to return).

    In other words don't buy Gateway. Then again, even if you aren't interested in the refund don't buy Gateway. They sell crap and their customer service (employees, polcies, turn-around times, etc.) are crap. While I wouldn't have bought one before I started working there I sure as hell wouldn't now.
    • I used to work at Gateway too. Until eMachines took over and decided that about four fifths of the company was not necessary.

      Here's my understanding of the situation. Before Microsoft's big legal case with half the states in the country, they could make manufacturers sign an agreement that they wouldn't sell systems with any other OS. But that was ruled anticompetitive and is no longer allowed. But that doesn't prevent MS from including a clause in their agreements with manufacturers that says they ca

  • DiscountLaptops.com ships GREAT laptops with no OS (Score:3, Insightful)

    by fmerenda ( 78242 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @07:29PM (#12182143) Homepage
    I bought my laptop (A Sager 5690 - model no longer sold on their site) from http://www.discountlaptops.com/ [discountlaptops.com], and I couldn't be happer with it. No operating system, great value, and excellent customer service. I also paid about $1,000 less for my laptop than I would have paid if I bought it from Dell (P4 w/hyperthreading, 2GB ram, 1400x1050 LCD, over a year ago). If you don't believe me read their buyer ratings at the bottom of their web site. I actually had to return my laptop for repairs because of a faulty motherboard, and they paid for all the shipping and had my laptop back to me in a few days. The owner of the company emailed me several times before I bought the laptop and answered questions I had about it (like what ethernet chip it had), and made *objective* suggestions about which laptop I should buy. The owner also contacted me several times during my warranty work episode and I felt extremely comfortable that he was making sure that I was well taken care of by Sager. (Sager and Chembook are two of the main manufacturers that they sell on their site. These are the companies that sell to places like Alienware, Hypersonic PC, Pro-star, Voodoo PC and many others. I'm running Ubuntu Hoary on it now, and have not had any problems at all. Before this I ran Fedora Core 2 and 3 with no problems (save the faulty motherboard).

    I can't recommend discountlaptops.com enough. I don't work for them or anything like that, I am just a happy, happy customer. You can bet my next laptop will be from them as well.

  • Toshiba's way around this problem (Score:3, Informative)

    by joefish_only_1 ( 695119 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @06:16AM (#12186031)
    I bought a laptop late last year. One of the things I was considering was asking for a refund for windows. However, on opening the cardboard box, I found that the laptop was enclosed in shrinkwrap with a bright yellow sticker attached. The sticker said something to the effect of "This product is sold with Windows, if you don't want Windows, then please return the whole thing unopened. Refunds will not be given for just the software, and by opening the packet you agree to this."

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