Salary Negotiation for an IT Position?

HerculesMO asks: "I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation. I know that I'm underpaid for what I do, and as such, I've been looking for another position. The problem is however, that a lot of potential positions ask for what you are currently making -- and it's a bargaining chip that the company I interview with will (and have) used to negotiate salary." Given that businesses usually base the salaries of new hires on their previous job, how can one arrange a fair salary if they were badly underpaid?

"I'm currently in a series of interviews with a company that I really like, the work environment, people seem young and friendly (like myself), and the business is something I wouldn't hate doing. I'm well qualified for the work, and their director already likes me. I just feel that, if I accept the position, I won't be able to bargain my way up to the market rate for the position, given it's such a leap from what I currently make. In New York, many of the companies require the disclosure of salary so just 'saying no' locks me out of a lot of potential positions."

Don't tell them

Never tell them what you currently earn. Just tell them what sort of range you're looking for. If it's the kind of organisation that's worth working for, they'll understand that this is the relevant piece of information for you to provide anyway and not even question it.

If they start trying to dig, politely decline to tell them, saying that you don't think it's relevant and/or that you feel it's inappropriate to discuss the specific details of a professional relationship with another employer. (In some places, talking about salaries is bizarrely taboo, and most businesses will respect that the same way they'd respect you if you declined to talk about specifics of previous work because of a confidentiality clause: they'd hope for the same professional conduct if you were leaving them and working for someone else.)

If they persist even then, then they're the kind of place that pays what it can get away with and not what it should pay on merit, and you probably don't want the job anyway.

Re:Don't tell them

In some places, talking about salaries is bizarrely taboo

Because when some companies advertise for jobs, they put out a lowball offer first, and gradually ramp up the salary until they start getting bites. Consequently, that type of workplace will have a wide range of salaries - some engineers might be earning more than managers. To avoid any kind of workplace uprising, the discussion of salaries is taboo.

Re:Don't tell them

I have to agree whole heartedly with the parent poster. There is no reason to tell them and you can not be compelled to do so. Tell them that you don't think that your previous compensations should have any bearing on what you would accept for this positi

Just say this...

"I'm currently making $X, but I believe that's below the market rate for my type of work and I really am looking for more like $Y."

If $Y is a reasonable number and you stick to your guns, you can probably get them to offer it.

Alternatively, if you don't particularly care about being honest, you could always just say "I'm currently making $Y" and there will never, ever be any way they'll ever know the difference. However, I think the first approach is more straightforward and just as effective.

-- Mark

Re:Just say this...

Alternatively, if you don't particularly care about being honest, you could always just say "I'm currently making $Y" and there will never, ever be any way they'll ever know the difference. However, I think the first approach is more straightforward and ju

Re:Just say this...

I work for a public university. My salary is a public record. Lying about it would be a very bad idea, methinks, once I start looking for another job. However, I'd need quite a bit more money to leave -- right now I get full tuition (and most fees) waiv

Oh gods...

I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation....

I am so very sorry for you...

Just tell them

Tell them what you're making, and make it clear that the reason why you're looking for a new job is because you're aware that you're severely underpaid. Make it very clear that you will not accept a salary below whatever the standard is, or whatever it is that you want. You're in an advantagous position here, you already have a job and are currently well established so you can afford to be picky.

Tell them what you're worth then get another job

Tell them how much you think you should earn. If they don't agree then go see what the marketplace will pay you by getting another job offer somewhere else. If you're seriously open to working at a new job then tell your employer you'll leave them and take the other job unless you get paid what you're worth, assuming you still want to work at your current employer.

Re:Tell them what you're worth then get another jo

If they don't agree then go see what the marketplace will pay you by getting another job offer somewhere else.

I'd argue that prospective employers who are asking about your current salary are doing so because they are clueless or cheap, neither of which

Re:Tell them what you're worth then get another jo

I asusme it has to do with value and your compentance. Many IT folks who did not have their jobs outsourced to India kept making 75k a year while those who did took jobs for 25k.

many who stayed at 75k are now promoted as managers and do the hiring.

Who woul

"Please, sir, may I have some more?"

"MORE!!!" ... and then my manager proceeded to whip me with a CAT5 cable.

Why not just tell them?

If you're looking for a new job because your old one isn't paying you enough, what's the problem with telling prospective employers that? When they ask why you're leaving, tell them you're looking for more opportunities to advance and don't feel you're getting that at your current position - that's code for "they aren't paying me enough." The question of how much it is will inevitably come up, as you say, so just tell them. If you think a company may screw you based on your previous salary, that's probably not a good company to join. What you want is a company that will pay you what you're "worth," and they probably have a figure in mind for your position before you even apply.

As an aside, whatever they offer you, get it in writing, and be wary of things like "Starting at 40,000, increasing up to $10,000 after 3 month review," I've gotten screwed by that type of language before. "Yeah, It's only a $2000 raise, but we did say 'up to' $10,000! (wink, wink)." I started looking for a new job that very day.

I made a big change in income

But after 2 years with the company. What helped me was I did a lot of homework, and I was honest. Told them I liked my work, and wanted to stay with the company, but these are my personal goals.... The one that made it for me was housing - I told them one of my goals was to own my home, in the city. Gave them a realestate map with the areas of the city I liked, and the median home price in each of those areas, and then the median income I would need to get a home in each area. They decided to invest in me and my goals. I don't have a home in the historical district I really like, but I have a very nice place with a shorter commute than many of my co-workers and one of the best school districts in the area.

Doesn't matter. NEVER take their first offer.

A companies first offer is their lowball, god what if this sucker goes for it offer. If you are currently employed, you have no pressure, so hit them back with a counter equally far above what you want. work your way to what you want, or as close as you can get them.

I have worked with folks who took the first offer, and made WELL below me for the same work.

BTW, I'm a UNIX system administrator, who does windoze only when absolutely required.

Tell them your salary, it empowers you

A common misunderstanding is that NOT telling them your salary helps you. I believe that is wrong. First of all, many companies will immediately shut you out for not disclosing that. It can also leave a sour taste in the interviewers mouth if you continue to resist the question. Also, it might make the employer think you got paid an embarassingly low salary, which doesn't help your cause either. I mean if you were getting paid like a champ, you'd mention your salary to make sure you can get paid even more.

You make it clear - very clear - that your current salary is too low and that is a big factor in why you are looking for a new job. Sure, you might be able to fight for a raise and get it, but it's still too low. That means their offer has to be even more than what one raise might net you. You're telling them that if they low ball you, you aren't taking their offer.

Whoever throws a number out first sets the tone. If, for example, you make $55k, but want $60k, but you make them say a number first, there are scenarios where you can end up fighting an uphill battle. What if they offer you $50k? What, suddenly you're willing to disclose your old salary and tell them their offer is too low? Then all that talk about it not being "relevant" goes out the window and you look like a fool. And now you are stuck fighting your way *up* to your goal. Instead, had you made it explicitly clear your currently salary is FAR too low, told them what it is, and asked for $65k, then you place them in the position to have to fight their way down to $60k.

If you don't tell them what your salary was up front, they won't know where you are coming from and your salary request will seem like some phantom number you got from salary.com. You want credibility? If you can't justify why you should get paid what you are worth, you don't deserve the salary anyway. Tell them what you make and make them respect what you feel you should be getting.

Re:Tell them your salary, it empowers you

Sorry, but I just can't see the benefits for the job seeker in your advice.

First of all, many companies will immediately shut you out for not disclosing that.

Do you want to work for such a company anyway? That's certainly never been the norm where I

Value yourself

A wise man once told me "if you don't value yourself, how can anyone else value you?" I've found those words to be very true on my past job searches.

Most company HR departments will validate current salary level requests. Large corporations often have hotlines dedicated to this, as the information is often required when applying for a mortgage or other financing.

It's a tough spot to be in when you are asked this question. When answering, make sure that you give a figure that represents your entire package (salary, bonus, options, perks, etc) - and let them know that you're talking about an entire package. Since bonuses are often based on variable factors, it's fair for you to factor in the upper limit of your bonus potential. The message here is be honest, but also be thorough in how you detail things. Above all, be fair to yourself.

If you're good enough and an employer really wants to hire you - they'll pay what they feel you're worth to them, as opposed to just giving you a standard "raise" from where you are.

Good luck - stay confident, negotiate tough and get what you deserve!

Be Resonable and Professional

Just say "I will consider any Resonable and Professional offer."

Remember they (their HR department) has researched the going rates for the position in your area so they know what Resonable and Professional is. And they should be offering you what you are w

WARNING: Passive aggression detected!

Given that you did not mention asking your current employer for a raise, we can conclude that either (A) you didn't ask for a raise yet, or (B) you have been denied a raise. Let's examine these options more closely.

In the first option, we assume you have n

Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected!

In conclusion, if you haven't asked for a raise yet, do it first thing Monday.

He'd be better off discussing compensation with an outside offer letter in hand. I think that'd be worth a delay of a few weeks to hear back from some of the places he's inter

Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected!

If you have asked for a raise and you've been turned down, inform your boss that you cannot continue at the current salary and that you would like to continue working there, but you will be forced to start looking for a new job if you do not get a substantial rase.

Be careful!!! I've been FUCKED OVER playing that song and dance. Last time I asked my boss for a raise, I got declined. Two weeks later he hired another employee as my replacement (a n00b) and then laid me off a week later for some lame excuse.

Point is, if you ask for a raise be prepared to rock the boat. Chances are, you might get thrown overboard for your stupid attempt at a course correction in your career.

Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected!

And if he replaced you that quick, he didnt think much of you at all. Doesnt sound like it was that great of a job to start off with.

Do tell them, but give them the gross

Most companies I have worked at provide bonuses, RRSP matching (think 401k, only up here, where it's colder) and other compensation. I also do some work on the side.

By the time I add all that stuff up and tell them that is what I am currently making, I've pretty much reached the base salary I am looking for.

The key is in how you word it. Obviously you can't say "my current base pay is", you have to say "I am currently making about ...".

Another key is to be somewhat vague. If you are making $65k/year, say "in the high sixties, looking for something in the low seventies".

If you are very underpaid, don't be afraid to mention this to your new employers as a reason you are looking for a new job. This will ensure they offer something above what you are currently making.

Also remember that when they offer you a job, it's an offer and it's probably not final. I've never accepted the first offer and always received a better offer.

be firm..

When I got my programming job, I remained firm the entire interview. By firm, I mean I gave direct answers. Sounded confident (HA! FOOLED THEM!), but there were no 'uhhhh. ummmm. well.... err...'s at all. When it came to it, he asked how much I want and I

The 5-Step Program

If you are asked about what your salary is and you're worried about whether or not they might lowball you. Do two things:

1.) Make sure that the requirements in the job description are in fact everything that it says it is...(ie.- No additional stuff that

what I did

As a programmer fresh out of college, I took a position for a fairly low offer, because I thought the company had potential. That didn't pan out, and by the time I had 2 years experience, in spite of having received high % raises, I was roughly 20k/year u

Re:what I did

Well, this is the balancing act that any employer has to do. They need to get the work done at the lowest possible cost, taking into account the cost of attrition if anyone leaves. Where business continuity is critical, they have to pay more. Where the

Oh good grief, be up-front about it!

Given that businesses usually base the salaries of new hires on their previous job, how can one arrange a fair salary if they were badly underpaid?

Tell them your whole employment history up-front. Since you're currently under-market, you hardly have a position to negotiate from anyway. And they've certainly had plenty of their time wasted before by applicants who interviewed well but who's references didn't check out in the end.

You've stayed at that current position for several years because of the great learning environment, right? But now you're open to moving because your current employer doesn't have a path for you to grow much beyond it, or so I figure.

A business has two types of positions: those for which basic requirements or certifications are considered sufficient (you mentioned Windows System Administrator), and those for which the superior candidate will bring to the company strategic advantages (usually just sales, upper management, and sometimes development). The first get based on pay grades and local market conditions, whereas the latter are much more flexibly based mostly on how the company feels about it's profitability. I theorize that these correspond to Maslow's homeostatic and higher needs [emotionall...cation.com], respectively.

Get them to say the first number. You currently have stable employment, and they're probably not hoping for someone who jumps ship anytime 10% comes along either. Since you're currently under market, any offer you get may be on the low end of their grade for the position. Take it without hesitation, if it gets you into the usual market range for your skills (you already mentioned that you liked the company).

Work hard, prove yourself valuable, and you can expect to be at correspondingly competitive compensation within a couple of years.

Re:Oh good grief, be up-front about it!

Get them to say the first number.

I prefer to do this before I even go in for the interview. I've found that I've been able to close many deals in my career by being the higher-priced alternative. When the headhunter first calls, I tell them "Look, I've

Underpaid? Indeed!

I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation. I know that I'm underpaid for what I do

Nobody could pay me enough to do that.

-jcr

Negotiate your salary

When the interviewer asks you what you would like to be paid, tell him/her : what is the typical range they pay someone in that position at the company.

They will typically give you a range.

You should also value yourself. If you think you're worth 60k, ask

This is a business relationship. Treat it as one.

I just feel that, if I accept the position, I won't be able to bargain my way up to the market rate for the position, given it's such a leap from what I currently make.

A feeling? You're basing business decisions on a fear?

Be honest. Decide for yourself whether you release information about a business relationship you had/have with another company. Then go into your interviews knowing what you will share and how you will share it.

Don't sit around and wonder what they'll do, or what they'll think.

You are developing business relationship. Be professional. Don't go in there hoping you do everything right, and in the process spend more time worrying about doing the right thing than about presenting yourself and your skills.

I have made a few largish jumps in the past (12%, 25%, 63%). Each time I went in and told them what I liked about their company, how I believed I fit in, and the range I expected to be paid for the position. Each time I was honest without telling them my current sallary. This last time several companies turned me down primarily, I assume, because I was asking for what I was worth. Eventually I found a position that was perfect for me, and apparently perfect for them.

But then, I don't bargain. I don't do counter-offers, and I let them know up front that I'm not interested in doing so. If they don't feel like paying what I'm worth, then I'll not waste any more of my time or their time.

Your mileage may vary, and unless you have the personality that I have these tips may not work for you. But I would suggest at minimum that you treat this as a two way business relationship. They are trying to sell you on the position as much as you are trying to sell them on your skills. Don't make yourself out to be the party with less power.

"We have hundreds of applicants, what makes you so special?"
"There are hundreds of campanies I could work for. I want to work for yours. Can you say that of your other applicants?"

-Adam

DO NOT LIE!

Companies can call, and sometimes will, call other companies and ask about your employment with them. They will try and get as much information as possible. Some companies will reveal your salary, and if that happens you're screwed.

Re:DO NOT LIE!

Maybe it varies by industry, but I can't imagine any company I've ever worked for doing this:

1) First, the company receiving the call usually won't want to advertise to their competitors how much they're actually paying for labor.

2) Second, most companie

Re:DO NOT LIE!

The new offer might not be "shitty". You lose a job which has the potential to be the best place to work EVAR. You dont work there, so you dont know.

Re:DO NOT LIE!

I had a friend who thought she was underpaid and told HR what the amount that she should have been paid instead. She interviewed well and liked the company and position. Unforunately, they wanted to see her paystubs before they officially gave her the off

Re:DO NOT LIE!

ON the other hand, why on earth would you want to work for a company that demands to see previous pay stubs? Seriously. That should be a major red flag. Not worth the trouble.

Happened to me too

This happened to me when I was interviewing for a job...I made a competitive salary up, but they wanted to see pay stubs. They asked for the pay stubs and cooly explained that I was currently negotiating for a raise with my former management and they had a

Re:DO NOT LIE!

Unforunately, they wanted to see her paystubs before they officially gave her the offer letter. And when they found out she was lying, she got nothing.

I have a feeling that the amount she gave was unreasonably high. Every year we hear a new article that gives the average wages someone in our position makes. Unfortunately, many technologists believe these averages to be around their actual market value. That simply isn't true. Some people have exceptionally high wages due to being in an invaluable position. (Been there, done that, both glad and sad it's over.) These salaries drag the industry average upwards, creating data that would make it appear that most technology workers are underpaid. Thus workers often hope for unreasonably high salaries when they switch jobs.

However, a new job will almost never want to match those figures unless they really want you on-board. In your friend's case, her high salary may have been a strong indication to them that she is an exceptional employee. But if they're basing their evaluations on a high salary, they probably will want proof of it. Just imagine how poor she looked in their eyes when they found she had not only lied about her salary (somewhat bad), but had significantly overstated her wages? Yeah, pretty bad. So bad that their opinion would have immediately went from hero to zero.

Each job negotiation is a delicate process with no hard and fast rules. So there's no telling what may work better. Generally I'd recommend telling the company to give you an offer if you don't want to state your real wages, but sometimes that has the exact opposite effect of what you want. Even if you read the interviewer fine, he/she may not be the one who finally has to be convinced. (You may not even see that person.) So tread carefully, and realize that it doesn't always work out.

If you absolutely *must* lie, though, try to explain the differences as bonuses in previous years. They're a bit more difficult to check, and sound quite good. (Though you may have to lie even more to explain what the bonuses were for.) Of course, once a company has your SSN info, it's all over. You just have to hope that your future boss doesn't check your tax information and/or credit report before hiring. (Note that many companies check credit reports as a method of protecting against embezzlement and position abuse.) :-/

Re:DO NOT LIE!

HR and many managers would view it as incompetance. If employee x is that underpaid then why didnt he/she leave? Is she really not worth what she is being paid?

Corporations dont want to hire at all as you cost money. They want the best bang for the buck.

S

READ THIS BOOK

READ THIS BOOK.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580083102/ref=pd _sim_b_1/002-6822999-5302459?_encoding=UTF8&v=glan ce&n=283155 [amazon.com]

It's a handbook of negotiating techniques with specific regard to salary and job prospecting.

The golden rule?
WHOEVER GOES FIRST LOSES. Don't EVER be the first to mention a number.

The book is incredible, it really is. There are at least three different techniques for dealing with the "what are you currently making" question.

If you do nothing else before you have your next interview, read the book. If it doesn't help you, I'll buy it from you. I re-read the whole thing before EVERY interview to brush up.

I don't want to seem overenthusiastic, but this is one of the few things I can say works without a doubt. It's one of the most important books I've read in my entire career.

Re:Umm... lie.

I beleive you are right. IANAL(Gee, I say that a lot), but I know there are very few questions a prospective employer can ask of your current/previous one, and I don't think "How much did he make?" is one of them.

Re:Umm... lie.

There may be legal restrictions on what your past employers can disclose, but let's face it, that doesn't stop someone asking and someone else telling. If they do, you may get to hose your previous employer (or not, as the case may be), but for sure if you

Re:Umm... lie.

That is the single worst advice you could follow. People jump around in the IT industry. The same people all know each other, or are friends of friends with each other. People may have met at previous jobs or even during interviews. If you think there is z

Re:Umm... lie.

Don't do it. They call. Plus if you're looking at work with the federales, they will look.

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of a line I got from a WSJ Managing Your Career column a while back:

"I am hoping to receive a fair offer."

One guy I interviewed with even knew the article I was talking about and got some points for reading the journal.

But don't fib. It'll bite you in the ass.

Re:Umm... lie.

I agree, don't lie, but don't tell the truth either.

Here's the best salary advice anyone has ever given me - make them talk numbers first.

Yes, you can do this. It's part of the process. If they are talking money, they want to hire you, but they, of co

Re:Umm... lie.

Some of us have this thing called a conscience. I say, instead of lying, tell them the truth, but also tell them you believe you are being underpaid and should be paid X instead of Y. You dont lie, and you get your message across. If they wont give it t

Re:Umm... lie.

1 a : the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good

Most people associate telling the truth with moral goodness. Misleading p

Re:Umm... lie.

Okay, thats just dumb. First of all, there is a good chance they can find out. If not from you, from your references, or from your tax returns, or some other method using your SSN and DOB. If like me, you're an employee of the government/university, yo