Dealing With The Always-Breaking Family PC?

Corby Ziesman asks: "I am sure many on Slashdot are entrusted to maintain computers for their family members. I've built a few computers for my sister over the years; however she constantly complains to me that 'something's wrong' with the computer, and claims that it 'just stopped working' all by itself. She blames the computer I built, calling it 'a piece of crap', yet it works flawlessly once I start using her old computer after she has upgraded. I've considered revoking her access to Windows, and giving her Ubuntu Linux or something, however she has a lot of games and art applications like Corel Painter that require Windows. How do I get her up and running, so that I don't have to keep fixing the computer every month? I'm tired of digging in the registry, checking the processes for spyware, and all that. I have also tried to educate her about how to use a computer intelligently, but she seems to lack common sense when it comes to what software is suspicious and bloated, and what is trustworthy. So I ask the Slashdot community: how do you cope with your family members who have a talent for torturing computers?"

No problem

4 years ago, the machine I made for my mother with (a pirated copy of) Windoze-2000 crapped five minutes after I installed it. In a jiffy, I decided to install Mandrake Linux on it.

It never failed once, and I never had to fix it, and my mother is very happy with it to write letters and her e-mails.

Don't give her admin rights...

Don't give her admin rights...

Re:Don't give her admin rights...

> Exactly. Create limited user accounts, and only let them use those.

I've meant that as a punishment. :) But when you take admin rights from users that means you are the admin for them. And that will lead to less mess/work that allowing clueless users to admin. Really. :)

> Many (poorly-written) pieces of software claim that administrator
> privileges are necessary, but there are (almost) always F/OSS equivalents
> that don't have such a ridiculous requirement.

That is bullshit. In deed many of closed source software are poorly written and *tend* (go on with reading) to require admin rights. But stating that FOSS has all the equivalents is plain bullshit and a lie that in the end will make no good for FOSS.

FOSS is nice for some task but it *lacks* some of the apps and don't lie anybody that it doesn't. It is a bad advocacy and serves no purpose.

As for old Windows applications that conflict with LUA principle - that can be get over with. You just need to work around it. There are plenty of tools which help - compatibility mode, toolkits and so on. You can set access rights for apps and so on. So really some stupid app writing directly to C:\ can be tricked to work under LUA. It just requires some knowledge, but please don't state that it can't be done.

As a disclaimer - for my own computing needs I use Linux only and I love it.

Re:The schedule feature is your friend.

Once again I'll suggest the easiest solution I have come across. And it really does work. Visit http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm [mvps.org] and download the hosts file. Set it up (takes about 2 minutes) and then make it read only. Once a month or so - whenever you visit, update the hosts file. The file on this site is updated regularly. The last update is from yesterday. This file is released under the Creative Commons license and prevents 'bad' pages or sites from loading. Obviously, spyware from unknown sites is not stopped by this but it prevents such a high percentage of unwanted crap that it has resulted in NO calls from friends or family members to fix spyware related problems on their pc's.

simple

Get one of these: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/frustrations/388b / [thinkgeek.com]

Tell him/her to buy a Mac.

Problem solved.

Family that refuses to learn.

I take family that refuses to learn, and leave them to their own devices. They were smart enough to get into this mess, they can figure their way out. At most I would give them URL's to self-help websites and the like. It's given me a lot of peace of mind, and a few relatives that now "get it".

The fault lies with the marketing department

Because PC's are marketed as appliances, and appliances (as we all know) "just work" for years without our having to think about, most users are incapable of grasping the facts that any geek takes for granted (and which I won't recap here).

Your path is clear, unless you *want* to be a Windows support specialist, or have a secret masochistic streak; the next time your sister's box goes on the fritz give her the 800 number to Dell...and let them deal with her.

At the very least, after a Bangalore call center experience she *should* come back to you with a better attitude.

No respect, no computer.

If she calls a computer you built for her "a piece of crap", then forget it. She obviously doesn't respect you, or the work you're doing for her. Let her buy her own PC, and when it fails, let her take it to Best Buy and see how much they charge.

That should change her tune quickly. The only reason she's not learning how to manage a PC is that there are no consequences when she breaks it. She'll just get you to fix it. If she has to PAY for it, however, she'll learn quickly enough.

Re:No respect, no computer.

This is the most insightful comment. The real problem is between you and your sister, not between your sister and her computer.

Re:No respect, no computer.

This post is closest to my personal feelings. It comes down to a perception of value. She doesn't value the computer because she paid nothing for it, and gets her support for free, while at the same time ridiculing the person who is supporting her.

I used to be the support person in my family. Then I started running Linux, then I got a Mac. Over time my Windows skills greatly diminished because I just forgot the stuff. Then I realized that there are solutions that work, Linux and Macs. The fact that people could just keep tapping me for free Windows support was what made it possible for them to run Windows. It was my time and energy that allowed them to live in denial. So, I stopped supporting Windows. I made it a policy that if you wanted support from me you either had to run Linux, or get a Mac. My support outlay dropped precipitously. Slowly my friends switched. Started using their computers a lot more, and I get almost no calls. But when I do I know something is actually wrong, not some virus, or the latest malware BS. Most of the time I can trace it back to a hardware issue, which I do not consider a waste of my time. I'm happy to trouble shoot actual problems.

I don't have an issue with doing support for free. After all we are talking about family, but if they are simply going to use you so they can take the cheapest route, one we know will lead to problems, then I don't feel like I need to support that. It would be like some family member buying a used Yugo, a car that is known to be bad, and repeatedly asking for help fixing it, for free.

Mark

don't give her admin access

Make her run as a dumb user - now she can't install stupid shit.

Test each of her apps to make sure they still work without admin access.

If an app breaks, you can troubleshoot with regmon and filemon, i.e. many apps need r/w perms in their own directory for some retarded reason.

If she has a fast internet connection, set things up so you can RDP or VNC into her machine for the few times she'll legitimately need to install new software.

Do the Pro method

I say do what the professionals do. Use XP Professional, and set family up with User level access, and tight security settings, that will stop her from doing stupid stuff. Giving them Linux or a Mac usually works best but if you family is going to need windows only apps and give a fuss if they don't have it. Then spend the extra cash and get XP Professional.

When setting up permissions make sure they cannot install software without access. And don't give them Administrator access and not the admin password. But make sure these is enough for their apps to work.

The next step is removing as many traces of Internet Explorer as possible and get them to use Firefox or Opera as the default browser. Also make sure they have a Virus Protection software and anti-Spyware tools. If they are not freeware make sure they are registed and will keep themselves updated automatically.

Finally explain to you family about the last system they said was broken and state you noticed no problems with it. Let them know their actions can damage the Software, and there is nothing that you can do, or Dell or Compact, to stop that. You need to tell them that it is not worth it to overly cutify your PC, while some are reputable most will damage the software, and for most cases there is no good way to know if it bad or good from observations, or guessing by the quality of the website, or the terms in the legalese.

Charge her.

Charge her your standard rate, as if she were calling a business to fix it. You spend two hours cleaning Bonzi Buddy and 180solutions out of her machine....charge her for two hours labour.

Once it starts hurting her pocketbook, maybe she'll realize it's easier to learn it herself.

That's what I do with my relatives, and it works quite nicely. The only ones who get free support are my parents, and my wife's parents. And they're both on dialup, so they don't get a lot of crap to begin with.

Next time she foobars it, fix it, but tell her you're going to start charging her $40/hr or so, starting with your next visit. Make it $10-15 less than the going rate for most techs in your area.

She'll probably get pissed, and call around to a few other places, only to find out they're all more expensive. But she'll learn something in the end.

For Such Pigs, I Will not Play.

"She blames the computer I built, calling it 'a piece of crap', yet it works flawlessly once I start using her old computer after she has upgraded. "

I'm guessing your sister is a preteen or teenager, but this isn't a bad idea even if she's an adult.

Stop building her computers if that's her attitude, and explain to your her and your parents why. Chances are, she's doing something that's causing the problems or she just wants a newer computer. Let her spend some cash and wrestle with Dell tech support.

Remove the beam from your own eye

she seems to lack common sense when it comes to what software is suspicious and bloated, and what is trustworthy

Nothing about a computer is common sense. Nothing about a computer is intuitive. It is entirely learned, and much of it is complicated and esoteric.

I suggest at least part of the problem is your unrealistic expectation that everyone have complete knowledge of computers.

Answer's easy

Don't make a computer for anyone who insults your handiwork.

Ground Rules

The basic thing I do is lay some ground rules for whether I will fix a computer.

For instance: If there is enough space to backup an image of the OS, I create that backup, and lay Ground Rules of:

• Run the automagic backup program and make sure it's working. (Best if it's automated, but hey.)
• Every time you install/configure something on Windows that's important (and going to be a pain to do again), including Windows Updates, you should:
  1. Backup your data
  2. Restore the software image
  3. Restore your data
  4. Install/configure new software
  5. Confirm that it works
  6. Backup your data
  7. Backup the software image
  Yes, that's a pain, so do it once every couple of months. But have a schedule, and stick to it.
• If you've proven that you cannot be trusted to choose software, do NOT install software without permission. Ideally, you won't be allowed to -- you should have a very limited account.
• Don't use Internet Explorer to look at porn. Use Firefox for that, if you must.
• Don't use Internet Explorer to visit any site you don't trust.
• Please, just don't use Internet Explorer, period.

Now, if these instructions didn't work, or if you didn't follow them, here's the rules for when I swing by to help out:

• I am the boss. I'm willing to work with you to find something that's easy for me and works for you. But at the end of the day, it's my way, or I don't help. I don't have to be doing this.
• This is a favor. That means you don't get to complain to me that I'm doing it wrong. Instead, you get to do me a favor in return -- bake me cookies, bring me tea and coffee. I don't have to be doing this.
• I'm going to need access. Either tell me any passwords I'll have to know, or log me in (type your password, I won't look) and change it to something temporary that I can use. I refuse to come find you and get you to type your password every time I have to reboot -- which will probably be a lot.
• Let me drive. This was a phrase an old boss used, and it means "Give me the keyboard, and let me sit down." Chances are, the solution to your problem is something you really don't want to learn how to do by yourself.
• If I have something to teach you, then I'll let you sit down, because that makes it easier for you to remember. But follow my instructions exactly. I can point you to some hilarious but disturbing examples [ubergoth.net] of what happens when you do what you think I mean, and not what I said.
• Do what I say, exactly. My mother has this insanely irritating habit of finishing my sentences for me, and she has never, ever been right that I can remember. Let me put it this way -- I say "Now I want you to..." and she says "Do this?" I shout "NO" just as she anihilates what we were doing, and we have to start over. The problem is, she gets deeper and deeper into the wrong thing because she assumes she knows what I'm trying to say.
• I am your tech while I'm here. Unless I tell you to, do NOT go to another person for help while I'm here. "I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here, let me call Jim." Only not quite so obviously, but that is what you're saying when you want to call Jim and I don't. Look, if I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll say so, and I'll tell you to call Jim or whoever you need to call.
• I know more than you do about this problem. It's arrogant, but true. Feel free to offer your advice, but unless I defer to your greater knowledge of BloatyAppX, you don't get to second-guess me. If we've got to reinstall Windows from scratch, then that's what we'll do. It will be a huge pain in the ass, but not as much as it would for me to fix it in the state it's in. If you don't like it, I stop helping.

These are not intended to be as oppressive as they are. I'm actually fairly nice, cheerful, helpful, knowledgeable, and understanding.

Virtualization? VMware w/Linux Host, Windows guest

Assuming the hardware and RAM is beefy enough to support it, consider the rather drastic approach of virtualization for this problem.

Using Linux as the host OS. Set it up so you can remotely SSH in to "fix" things when something breaks. Then use something like VMware to create a Windows virtual PC. Keep a copy of the finished image (or create a snapshot if you are using VMware tools).

Follow the advice of the person that gave the suggestion to use Ghost -- use a second drive for documents, email, etc. When she breaks something, all you have to do is shut down the Windows virtual machine, restore the snapshot, and restore it.

You could even go as far as creating an icon on a special linux user login -- "Fix my PC" -- and have it to it automatically.

Of course, you'll be sacrificing some of RAM and a chunk of CPU performance due to virtualization.

Been through this since the mid 90's.

Have learned a coupla things:

-the wife is generally not so willing to make changes

-the kids will bitch but will also deal with change far more easily

-nobody really needs all the crap they think they need.

After doing the whole win32, image, anti-virii, anti spyware dance one too many times, I finally just setup two computers.

The kids have been running Linux for about the last 4 years. Was rough at first because I had to do some extra admin to make devices and applications work. Recently my workload has dropped to almost nothing. (That's my benchmark for how well desktop Linux is doing, BTW --and it's coming along nicely.)

The kids PC is now running Ubuntu Dapper Drake. It's just sweet in that it mostly just works. They've been burning CD's, dealing with cameras, surfing, word processing, etc... with no issues to speak of. I set up user accounts for them, they ended up sharing one go figure. If they want an application, I find them one and they deal with it. All in all, a very nice solution. Interestingly, their friends come over to use the machine a lot. They like it because it's not a hassle. None of them have had any significant problems using the machine.

When they ask for something windows only, we talk about why they think they need it and what the alternatives are. Not a bad conversation to be having with one's kids, IMHO. Mine know the tradeoff between all the bad programs and learning how to do some things differently. Positioned right, they can use the computer uninhibited, or use it with extreme care. They choose uninhibited and safe every time!

For my wife, she does online poker. That means win32 for the best overall experience these days. So, we've got a machine running a default copy of XP Home, that I got at a steep discount. ($200!) We load only a few open tools and her poker clients. The rest of the machine stays factory with updates off. This machine is used for paying bills online, banking, etc... so general web surfing is out. There is a VM installed for that. Once the sites are known, it's easy to differentiate which ones can be surfed from the native OS and which should be surfed through the VM.

I don't run anti anything either. I've got the home network sitting behind a simple NAT, running Linux. (Quest routers are great!) The only inbound connections allowed are for gaming and are mapped to the console IP, or the Linux box as necessary.

The Linux machine receives it's normal updates and has performed just great. No issues at all. We did get the win32 machine hosed a while back. (Switched client based e-mail to gmail and that is not likely to happen again.) Restore from the discs provided, overlay drivers and install apps and it's all good again. Takes about an hour and I printed up a quick and dirty cheat sheet and burned a CD with the installers necesary for the box.

The spyware people target kids. If you are running a win32 box, with kids on it. It's gonna have everything under the sun running on it no matter what you do. Actually that's not totally true, but your admin burden goes way up if you lock the box down too tight. --nothing works unless you deal with it. Ubuntu has been great about this. I admin the box only when major changes are necessary (new printer, network, device....); otherwise it just does it's thing in user space.

Putting the kids on Linux brought the problems to a screeching halt. I suspect a Mac would have the same effect. (I just went the cheap route.)

As for sharing computers. I've no problems sharing a win32 box with my wife. We both know what the machine is used for and do exactly that. Anything goofy happens in a VM or on the Linux machine. (I did setup quick icons for doing both of these things. The family thought it was interesting that more than one person can be using the Linux box at the same time! VNC or X window, whatever you prefer --I do the X thing personally.)

Sharing a win32 machine with kids is a mess! The Linux

Try this

Sit them down in front of you, look them in the eye and say:

"This is not working. I try to do my best helping you with your computer problems in any way I can; I even built your last computer to save you some money. I have been at your beck and call, day and night, for years. What I get from you is a constant stream of complaints."

"Clearly, what I can offer you in help is not good enough by far. I do not know the reason - it could be incompetence on my part, it could be you inadvertently doing things you should not, or it could be that Windows, and the programs you want to run on it, just aren't very good quality. Quite possibly it is a combination of these. It doesn't matter, though - you are miserable, and that makes me miserable too."

"So from now on I will not interfere. No longer will my bungled attempts at fixing things just make everythng worse. I suggest you buy your next computer from a real vendor, with a service contract, and contact their professionals if you ever experience a problem with your new machine. You will be a lot happier knowing you can rely on people who help users for a living, and I can be free of the guilt of trying to do things that are perhaps over my head."

"I am truly sorry I have inconvenienced you like this for years. I wanted to help but of course I whould have known better."

I've Dealt with this

I used to have to deal with this with my Aunt and Uncle. They were nice about it, never rushed me, and always offered to pay, but eventually it was still a pain to have to drive over there every week or two to remove viruses, etc.
Eventually, I sat down and talked to them about installing Linux. I didn't go into technical details, but I explained that they could do everything they did under Windows, but it would take them some time to get used to different programs. I also explained that my cousins games wouldn't work. They decided to let me give it ago, and Installed Suse 9.1 (the newest version at the time).
I set up wine and got most my cousins games working, set up seperate accounts for each family member, set up their email, etc. Since then there hasn't been a single problem with that computer. A couple of months ago, they were given another computer that is running Windows XP. After a couple of months of the same cleaning up crapware off the machine every couple of weeks, they even asked me to install Linux on it as well. Unfortunately, some software that my Uncle runs on it won't run under Wine, and I haven't been able to find any alternative to it under Linux (it's some custom software written by a friend of his that ties in various topography maps with a database keeping track of caves and other geological stuff in the area). It's funny though, with the exception of my Uncle who needs to use this software, everyone else in the family prefers the Linux box, and only uses the Windows machine for iTunes or if someone else is on the Linux box.
If you approach them diplomatically and explain that installing Linux will require that they learn things a little different, but that in the long run it will make it easier on everyone, you might be surprised how receptive non-technical people can be toward the idea. My own experience (not just with my aunt and uncle, with others as well) has show me that, while most people may not be proficient enough to install and configure Linux, if you set it up for them and then walk them through common tasks, people can run just fine with Linux.

Re:Change your sister

The problem with purchasing his sister a brain is the installation process. Most users don't want to open the cases on their bodies, or have the requisite expertise. I'm sure that his sister could be sent back to the factory, they'll refurbish her put in the brain if necessary, and sell her at a discount, and he'll get a nice new sister.

Less Harsh...

I'm tired of digging in the registry, checking the processes for spyware, and all that. I have also tried to educate her about how to use a computer intelligently, but she seems to lack common sense when it comes to what software is suspicious and bloated, and what is trustworthy.

Assuming every other comment here is jumping to the wrong conclusion... Perhaps your sister is incompotent, ignorant, and frustrated, rather than actually evil and malicious?

For the most illiterate of computer users, I've found that making shortcuts to the important maintenance apps (antispyware, antivirus, defrag, Windows update, etc.) in a single "Monthly Maintenance" folder on the desktop, and replacing the IE icon with a link to Firefox (perhaps named "Internet Explorer", with the IE icon, in the worst cases) solves all the ignorance and incompotence problems. Now, if person X won't do that simple and basic task every month, THEN you can really assume the worst, and dump them on their ass (for their own good, as much as yours) as every other comment here has suggested.

She blames the computer I built [...] yet it works flawlessly once I start using her old computer after she has upgraded.

That one I can't account for. You really need to find out what the problem is. Arogance and condecention can cause intelligent people to ignore REAL problems, just because the user's poor description of the problem happens to sound dubious.

The ONE THING this sounds similar to, is people not knowing the difference between a Network/Website problem, and a computer problem. I find it's absolutely necessary to explain that things that happen while using the internet are NOT computer problems, and may solve themselves in a few days. That takes care of the ads that look like pop-up system error messages...

Get a Mac

I talked my mother into switching from XP to an iMac just over a year ago.

Only problem she's had since was a full mailbox at her ISP.

I'm sick of supporting Microsoft's problems - whenever people ask me for advice these days my answer is simply 'buy a Mac'. When they go and buy a PC instead because they think it's cheaper in the short term, afterwards when they come to me complaining about problems x/y/z I feel quite justified when I say - 'If you don't want to take my advice that's fine, but why is this now my problem?'

Re:Uh-Oh...

Nice to see you put computers and operating systems before your own family.

As for your actual comment, this is exactly what I did: someone in family bought a Mac and ever since the only questions are about how to use the computer/which software to use. I haven't had to "repair/fix" his computer since he bought it almost a year ago (Mac mini G4/1.25GHz, 512MB).

To be honest, with OS X and all the software it comes with (iLife, etc), the Mac really is the computer for the average user.