If Not America, Then Where?

Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"

The future

I always kinda liked the idea that I get to live in the future just by staying alive.

Obvious

Warm beach with girls. Money.

This thread is now closed. Please submit next Slashdot story.

I know, it's old fashioned and out of date

But I'm in America by choice, and will be for a loooooong time. I friggin' love it here, warts and all. Lived in Latin America, raised in Canada, and there's no place I'd rather be.

It's obviously the best solution

It's obviously best to simply give up and leave, rather than actually stand up and do something about changing your country.

Re:It's obviously the best solution

Mexicans do it all the time. But if I dare criticize them, I'm a racist.

I fully agree with your statement, by the way. Mexico would be a far better place if more stayed and tried to make it a better place. By leaving, they only ensure that their corrupt government stays in power, this is why they encourage it so much (not to mention remittances). Not that I can blame them, leaving is certainly the path of least resistance.

Re:So True

Mexico's problem is really corruption. Massive amounts of it. I mean you may complain about the US and well the UN, but Latin America is trying to Silver Medal in the Global Corruption Olympics (Africa is the out and out Gold Medal winner.) And this creates Mexico's problem. Why do anything if corruption is just going to take away your hard work? So, you are left with two choices (a) be lazy, or (b) leave.

Although the other poster disagreed with you (calling you racist) I completely agree. People wont understand how deeply is corruption mixed in Mexican's mind. I am a Mexican and I can see it. It is when you live or visit other countries were you find out that in my country corruption has become a natural way of life.

I marked in bold the statement you wrote which has been my feeling a lot of times in ACADEMIA. The first time it happened to my mom who is a teacher at a Mexico's university, she is the founder (and was the coordinator) of the Biology career in certain University. Everything was allright when she founded the career (with the backup of the maximum authority of the university called the "Rector" in Mexico). Then as soon as this person was changed, the department director started to make things hard because he thought that my mom wanted his place. My mom would NEVER going to be department director because that purely administrative.

The other was when I was in the bachelors degree; one of my teachers was daughter of the Rector (in another university). The department was basically divided in two groups, one where the Computer Scientists were and the other where the Soft. Eng. people where (this groups is where the daughter was).

I had a lot of problems in the last years because I used to talk and meet a lot with the Comp. Sci. people. The Soft. Eng. people were trying to get some permanent positions in the department (called "plaza") and they made a very dirty war against the Comp Sci. people.

Anyway, corruption is frustrating in Mexico, but as I stated in another post, it is that way because most people have learnt to live with it and to get something from it.

Moon

Van Allen Radiation Belt

Come to the World Next Door

Living just to the north of much of the United States, I often offer Stateside friends crash space in my basement in the event that things go completely pear-shaped where they live. Sure, we could be violently annexed in a depressingly short amount of time (and our supplies of uranium, oil, fresh water and lumber might make us a delectable target), but it's a relatively short trip. Besides, beyond Canadian Bacon [imdb.com], there hasn't really been any real effort to add us to the Axis of Evil.

Welll.....

If it were not for the money, language, and responsibility issues, I'd move to a Scandanavian country in a heartbeat.

As it is, I believe that America is exporting its culture at an incredible rate, and the best way to stop what I see as an unbelievably bad world situation is by attempting to modify it from within the States. I'm not doing a great job, but just being here and dissenting my little piece has more of an impact than living outside the country and bitching to other people that aren't there about how much my country sucks.

I lived overseas, and found that there were a few things true about me personally - 1) wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that. 2) wherever I went, I was followed by the influence of the things I had left the country to avoid, one way or another. Thus I am back here to attempt to modify the things about both me and the world around me that irked me so much when I was not living in the States. I don't know if I'll manage to change the world enough to make any sort of difference should I leave again, but by the time I can afford to leave again for any extended period of time, I will be able to say that I'm at least trying to alleviate certain negative influential factors that result from our social structure.

Canada is Full! Go home!

To immigrate to canada you must speak french, eat poutine and KD, and watch HNIC. It snows all year long and sorry we're full!

Beware of Canuckistani Beavers and Flying Pucks

In Soviet Canuckistan the Beavers eat *you*! Seriously, watchout for the little bastards. They'll smack you with their tails until you fall over and then gnaw off your limbs. You do have to be pretty drunk for them to catch you, so the real danger is when you're new to the country and only just getting used to Canadian beer, which is about 3 times stronger than kentucky bourbon. (Don't even touch Canadian whiskey. Canuckistani airlines sometimes uses the stuff as aviation fuel even though it's murder on the fuel lines.)

You'll also have to get used to keeping a continual guard up against flying hockey pucks. This skill comes naturally to native Canuckistani's who grow up dodging pucks from an early age, but newcomers to the country often suffer a few concusions before they pick up the knack of knowing when 170 grams of vulcanized rubber is rocketing towards the back of their heads at upwards of 150kph. You should also realize that global warming may soon cause a massive housing shortage in Soviet Canuckistan as temperatures rise too high for igloos to survive the summer. Truly, the country is going to become a madhouse when people's 3000sq foot 4 level split igloos with attached garages melt into ponds.

If you do still decide to emmigrate to Canada, be sure to talk to Phil from Vancouver. He can get you set up with your government issue starter snow-shovel and official toque with genuine saskatchewan sealskin bindings and special patriotic pom-pom. (very important) Be sure the pom-pom is firmly attached. If you lose it, rest assured that a mountie will spot it. (Don't even try to run. They always get their man.) Losing your pom-pom will get you exiled to newfieland, which is a fate many consdier worse than death by poutine!

Obvious really.

Amsterdam and you know damn well why.

Don't come to Australia

We do everything America does, only we do a worse job, less efficiently, and with none of the individual rights in our Constitution* that you enjoy in the United States which allow the courts to pull the executive and congress back into line every now and then.** Although we have no president or equivalent, our parliament is a virtual dictatorship at present and crossing the floor on the basis of principle is almost entirely unheard of and considered to be little better than treason. We lack media diversity, and general awareness of political and human rights issues is virtually non-existent in the wider populace even by US standards.

In addition we are extremely poorly placed in relation to the most likely theatre of any future world war, and we have large quantities of uranium and natural gas which makes us an important strategic target.

* disclaimer, before someone who knows about Australian law attacks - we arguably have freedom of religion and a right to vote, and a limited right to freedom of 'political' speech, but all can be infringed on by federal laws with a legitimate other purpose

** yeah yeah, I know how politicised the courts are, but every now and then you DO get a decision like Hamdan in which the Supreme Court clobbers the executive for overstepping the line

Re:Don't come to Australia

Shush you idiot! Don't you understand what parent post is doing?
Don't bloody tell everyone on /. the truth! They'll start coming here en-masse!

Mars

Mars.

it will take your breath away.

(No, seriously, that's the reason why NOT to go)

I'm not telling

Because I don't want a bunch of Americans following me, and I'm leaving just a soon as I tidy up a few personal things. Adios Amigos. But hey, you could always try Australia.

Re:I'm not telling

Taiwan with your Taiwanese wife Jasmine. You put on your web page which you advertised on slashdot.

I guess America will be heartbroken to lose someone with your logic skills.

EU

That's easy,

Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.

Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).

And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.

25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.

And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.

Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.

As a Scandinavian...

As a Scandinavian who just visit USA occationally I guess I can tell why I hesitate to move there... From the European horizon USA looks really cool. You have the greatest companies, the greatest sports champs (except in soccer), you are the center of entertainment, modern culture and research. You have... so very much.

However, when in USA I feel that I am so far away from everything. Manhattan is the exception. In LA I have an hour in a car to anything. In Las Vegas it takes a day to get anywhere else.

So even if I am closer to many things when in USA, there are fewer things that I am really close to (walking distance). If it takes 5h or more to get there by car, the Atlantic ocean doesnt make a huge difference anyway.

Please, come to Germany.

It's been sixty years since we stopped invading foreign countries. Professional help needed.

Greece

I mean like, how cool is a country that made their language and alphabet using all those math symbols!!!

Barcelona, Spain

I came to Barcelona because I met a Catalan woman who was studying in the US. That was in 2000. As with anywhere, there are pros and cons. I've also picked up some different perspectives on the US living outside of it. To sum up:

living in Barcelona: pros

1. the flow of time is different, slower somehow. people have more time outside of work and seem to make spending it with each other a priority. It's not that the work hours are so different, it's more of a cultural thing- work is usually not the center of one's life, or something they use to define themselves. for instance, you can get to know someone over months and never find out what they do (this may be related to con #1, see below.) most people get a month of vacation each year, plus innumerable long (3 and 4 day weekends). there's a big emphasis on getting together for long, tasty meals and laughing and drinking good wine. we lived in new york for 6 months a few years ago (ending a 1-year stay 6 months early) and I felt like I was running all the time, never had time to be with my family.

2. it's easier to be middle class. healthcare is free, education is cheap, public transit is cheap and excellent (the latter is for barcelona, not necessarily the rest of the country.) we have two little kids (9mos and 5yrs) and no car and it's not an issue. on a salary of us$60k we live well, even with the dollar worth .79 euro cents.

3. the level of education and knowledge about the world of the average person on the street is pretty high, compared to the US. people have travelled, speak at least two languages (spanish and catalan and usually bad english, and french). the public schools start earlier here (3 yrs old) and are a lot more rigorous than the public schools I went to in washington DC.

3. you are close to a wide range of different cultures, should you like exploring. if you travel the same distance from say, new york to cleveland, you can be in much of north africa, most of western europe, a bunch of eastern europe. turkey is a stone's throw away. even within spain there are seven or so regional languages and cultures that are strikingly different. western europe is slowly mixing and homogenizing due to the european union effort, but it still seems like an adventure every time I get on a train or a plane. maybe this is just because I'm not from here.

cons:

1. the work opportunities and work culture suck. education being cheap or free, you have a lot of really well educated people and not enough jobs requiring their skills. thus employers are used to paying bad salaries, paying late, not treating employees too well, etc. maybe this is a holdover from the years of dictatorship that only ended in the 70s. higher-ups generally fuck with those under them and it's not pleasant. getting a job often has more to do with whom you know or are related to, rather than what you can do (this is a cliche, but it is _really_ true here.) these negatives may be changing slowly, I'm not sure. I came on with a US company and started telecommuting about a year ago and now work for spanish firms only as a consultant, which gives me a certain amount of freedom and leverage.

2. speaking spanish isn't really enough, to really integrate you have to learn some level of catalan (the regional language in which government and local business is conducted), which is sort of like learning portuguese- similar, but still another language (not a dialect). even if it were only spanish one had to learn, it's was a part-time job for a me for a few years to get good at a language. classes, etc. Some people learn can languages faster of course.

on living outside of the US:

one thing you realize is that the US is a good place for work and earning money (if you're educated and posess certain skillsets - if you aren't, it looks like wal-mart, doesn't it?) and that the fact that you can often be evaluated for what you are able to do, rather than your connections, is damn nice.

you also see a lot of things in press that you never see there and it's, well, infuriating and fascinating at the same time. there are some issues that start to look ridiculous. take the non-proliferation treaty that we are trying to make sure iran et al obeys. we haven't said anything to israel (to my knowledge), which has had undeclared nukes since the 60s or 70s, is not a signatory, has the technology for nuclear-tipped missiles, and however you look at it, has a formidable military. doesn't that render our arguments a bit hypocritical? I'll stop there, because I don't want to piss people off, just noting that I am exposed to a lot of different information being here.

all in all, living overseas has been difficult and wonderful for me. the first year was intensely lonely, as I didn't know many people and couldn't communicate well in spanish. being with someone who is from here helps immeasurably. now over that first hump, I don't want to leave, and am happy my kids are growing up here.

Sorry, there is nowhere for you to go...

I'm sorry, but look around what your choices are:

1) Americanized countries (eg: England, Australia) : Same crap, different accent = Might as well live in the USA
2) Countries which hate America (eg: Middle East, France and most of Europe, Brazil, even Canada....). They dont want you, and will make your life miserable.
3) Third world countries (Africa, part of Asia, ...) : Bye bye Slashdot.
4) Developed Asian countries (Japan, Taiwan, HK...) : You cant take the cultural change...
5) Sealand : Good luck getting a visa.
6) Tropical paradise: You dont have enough money to retire there...

Re:Sorry, there is nowhere for you to go...

Canada doesn't hate the states.

There is a habit of saying "at least we're not like the states" but in fact in many regards we have the same bad habits as they have [e.g. polution, right wing movements, etc]. I think if Canadians hated the americans so much we wouldn't be visiting them so much.

That said, I wouldn't mind a big influx of Americans to Canada. Two words: "Melting Pot".

Canada prides itself on the pluralism and "mixed salad" style of immigration. You know what that gives you? Places like Toronto. Where none of the residents share any common values and the quality of life takes a sharp nose dive. I lived there for a while and honestly it's like you moved to another country. I'm all for respecting other cultures, but this is Canada, not a gathering place for everyone and their brother who want to change the land from under me.

Tom

New York City

We have less to do with the rest of the US than with Europe and Asia. All the worlds cusines cheap and delivered. Don't need a car so take that off your balance sheet. My part of town is covered with hot European expatriate chicks and all the cool kids from fly over country. Plus we still get to use the Constitution and Bill of Rights! (sort of-insert Bush joke) 24 hour subways so take that, London. Cheapish beer and taxis. More live music than is doable. Tall buildings and not too many crackhead bums.

Actually Rome probably has better food but that's just me. And Beijing is cool but there are always visa problems.

Norway

It depends on your requirements really, and your reasons for wanting out of the US in the first place. Different people will have different priorities.

For some, I think Norway is a good choice.

• It has a good standard of living.
• It has good education.
• Wages are high, but more equal than in the US. (meaning the very richest earn less, while the poorer/average people earn a lot more.
• Taxes are progressive, for high-earners they're higher than US, for low-earners they're lower than US. When comparing, it's important to remember that "taxes" here include such details like universal healthcare, free education (all levels), pentions that one can actually live from, unemployment benefits, a full year off with 80% of your normal wages when you get a child, government-sponsored childcare, the works. For this, I consider the taxes quite acceptable. (for example, I earn on the order of $70K and pay 29% taxes)
• Pollution is low. Nature is beautiful. Climate is mild on the coast. Not very warm summers, but neither very cold winthers. (unless you live way inland or way up north, which basically noone does anyway)
• Worker protection laws are good. You're actually allowed a life beside work, even as a 25 year old programmer. You can actually reasonably provide for a family with a single normal job. (though most women work anyway)
• Unemployment is at less than 3%, and falling. Enough said.
• Our social security is dead-simple, and very good. Rules for membership fit on a single line: You're legally in Norway for a (planned or actual) period longer than a year ? Member, all benefits ! There's no fee for membership, it's financed trough your taxes.

There are drawbacks.

It's not the place for those of you who love the big metropolis. Our biggest cities, Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger are only in the 100.000s, not in the millions.

Immigration can be tricky, unless you're married to a norwegian, from the EU, or have a desired qualification. Immigration also takes atleast 3-5 months for the paperwork (non-EU people, EU-people can come first, apply after), and you get only a 1-year work-and-stay permit which you need to renew yearly. After 3 years you get a permanent permit.

95% of the population speaks varying levels of english, most educated people speak it fluently. Nevertheless you'll be at an disadvantage until you learn the language. The language is in the same language-group as english and german though, so it's not very hard to learn. (80% of the words are recognizably similar for example)

Parts are rainy. The west-coast in autumn can be a shock (depending on where you're from). Normal rainfall in Bergen is like 2000mm/year. (less than half that in Oslo though)

Living-costs are high, especialy services are expensive. This is a result of the fact that your waitress, your hairdresser and your burgerflipper earns a decent living.

France!

I recommend France to anyone looking to make the plunge. It's what I did, and you really can't beat it. Good food, beautiful women, nice people.

I think that the primary differences between France and the U.S. is that the citizens actively participate in their government. There are some things I'm not entirely happy about. Police here can ask you for ID on the streets (though it's never happened to me), and speech is limited in certain ways (hate speech is not protected speech).

In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government. Something that impressed me was back during the vote for the European constitution, a book that explained the version of the constitution being voted on jumped to number one on the bestseller list during the weeks/months preceding the vote. It made me proud to be living here.

For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like, You may hear jokes about the French striking, because there is often some group in the news, whether it be the postal service, trains, air traffic controllers, on strike, but I think it's a healthy sign that not only are people working for change, but there's someone on the other side listening. Most strikes are resolved in less than a week, and life goes back to normal.

For Americans looking to make the plunge, you don't need to know any French to get started, if you want to work either in Paris, or in southern France near Nice (Sophia Antipolis is a huge office/science/tech park 20 minutes outside of Nice), but it's good manners to try. When I arrived, I didn't speak a word of French, and have since learned it well enough that I work entirely in French.

Also to note, you normally have to find a French company willing to hire you before you come if you are not a student. However, it's not too hard to find American or International companies who will hire you in the U.S. (pay you in dollars) to work in France.

If you want to date the locals, you will have to learn French. However, as long as your accent isn't too horrific, it's considered cute, and just as American women go gaga when French men say "enchanté" (nice to meet you, or literally enchanted), French women seem to go gaga over the phrase "my pleasure" when used to demur after having done something nice.

Re:France!

In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government.

For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like

Surely you must be living in a parallel-universe France, instead of the one I've been living in for a quarter century. Defiance regarding the state is rampant, there are whole cities out of reach of the police power, people distrust the government with a passion. In fact being critical of the executive powers is the national sport here. Yet there is a constant obsession with politics, which I think is symptomatic of a country fast sinking into fascism (be it of the collectivist or corporatist kind), where people are paralysed into believing salvation can only come from the very same people they loathe and curse at everyday. It's simply not healthy at all, it's like a pervasive mental disease that permeates everything, from friendships to work relations and even down to simple shopping interactions.

And there also is a fact that anyone considering moving to France should consider: french people are emigrating fast, at a rate of 100,000 to 200,000 each year, and it has been going like this for years already (2+ million people left the country, compare this with Cuba). This is the most massive exodus this country has ever known since the French Revolution ! There are reasons behind this continuous stream of people, reasons for fleeing this country.

Re:The Netherlands

I actually am an American living in the Netherlands. I didn't take the time to read the other posts (sorry!) to see if someone else had posted this information but I thought I'd do it anyway since I have a personal interest.

I moved here about 6 months ago with the help of the company I work for. Because of my salary I was allowed to get what is called a "Knowledge Migrant" (kennismigrant) visa. This is a special "fast track" visa that is granted to people who make over 45,000 euros if they are over 30 or 32,600 euros if you under under 30. It allows me to bypass most processes for migration (no requirement for degrees, language classes, etc) but does NOT allow me access to the public health or pension system. Because I was able to follow the kennismigrant procecss, it was fairly simple to get settled in. Also, since I will likely be subject to the 30% tax ruling (an beneficial ruling) I will be able to swap my US drivers license for a Dutch one without taking any tests or classes. Being that Dutch driving classes can run into the 1000s of euros this is a good thing.

Life in the Netherlands is nice and the country is great. They say that 80-90% of the Dutch people speak English which I find to be accurate. I am always able to get around with English and the few Dutch words I know. I am currently enrolled in classes to learn Dutch, but it's an incredibly difficult language because the two languages I already speak fluently (English and Spanish) have virtually no relationship to Dutch besides some common sounding words. The society here is fairly modern and you can get everything you need at any time, except Sunday. Everything is closed on Sundays except for restaurants, which generally open around 4 in the afternoon.

I found this article of particular interest because often time, especially from Americans, I hear things like "This country is stupid and I'd love to leave". After living in a few different countries now, I can honestly say I'd rather live no where else permanently but the US. The Netherlands and the the UK (the other place I spent considerable time) are great places, but it's not home. Life in other countries is very inconvenient (yes, I know, an American comment) and the people are generally much more orderly and nicer in the US. This may seem like a shock to people in the US (and a shock to people outside the US too) but I truly believe that is how it is. Simple things like standing in a line to wait for services or having a quick meal do not exist here. I know that for some people that is a charm, but for me it's an annoyance.

As a final note, I recently sent my entire team (10 Dutch guys) back to the US for training on our product. It was in the SF Bay Area and they all had a great time. The weather was perfect, the people were nice, and they all particular enjoyed Starbucks (the Dutch are huge coffee drinkers). When they all came back, each and every one of them pointedly asked me why the hell I would move here and leave San Francisco. It was nice validation for me and the US and makes me even more anixous to one day return.

I hope this post has given some insight to some people. Until you have truly lived somewhere else you won't understand how lucky we are in the US. Simply visiting a country on vacation does not give you the proper insight. You really need to experience daily life in other parts of the world to understand how good you have it.

Re:The Netherlands

I think it's fascinating how many Americans measure happiness in wealth. The key to success is having enough money to support yourself, not making enough money to live a life of luxury and frivolous spending. We do pay a lot of tax in The Netherlands, but there are benefits that you will not find in the US. I also work a government job that allows me to have more free days rather than the big money that I would be able to get in a commercial institution-- I wouldn't trade that in for a higher salary unless I actually needed that money.

Re:The Netherlands

Most Americans that I know, myself included, don't measure happiness in wealth. However, wealth is, to a large degree, a measure of your freedom.

In basically any of the situations in which you find yourself during your life, the amount of wealth you have at your disposal determines what options are available to you. You can be perfectly happy living off of the land in a subsistence society, but make no mistake here, choosing to be happy with your circumstances and choosing circumstances that you'll be happy with are two entirely different things. A penniless environmentalist might feel self-righteous waving a cardboard sign at the one annual rally he can afford to drive to, but a rich one can finance a wind farm and perhaps actually make a difference.

How much wealth you want to have is basically a measure of how much you care to tolerate the circumstances of your life being dictated to you.

Re:The Netherlands

I'm a portuguese living in Holland for the last 7 years.

As i progressed in my career and my salary went up i payed an increasing proportion of it as income tax. At this moment i work as a freelancer in IT and i make more than twice as much monthly (after taxes) as i did when i started working here.

At the moment, and due to the freaky way freelancers are taxed (i'm paying both employer's and employee's taxes and mandatory costs) the total ammount of tax levied on my base rate (the ammount that is payed for my services) is around 55%.
In other words, for every 8 hours i work a day, about 4h20m of those i'm working to pay the belastingdienst (tax office).

In two days time i will move to England.

-----

So, what are the good and the bad things about Holland (from the point of view of an european):

Good:

• Freedom. Freedom to be and do whatever you want. There are few "moral" laws (i.e. laws prohibiting non-mainstream private acts) in Holland and most dutch people follow the principle of "You can do whatever you want as long as i don't have to see it and you don't harm anybody". Thus pot consumption is tolerated, prostitution is lawfull and regulated, non-heterosexuals are not descriminated against and more. Although the current government (conservatives) has pushed a bit on prostitution and pot, they're about to be thrown out
• Rational work hours. People around here usually work 8h/day period. Even in IT very, very few companies will try to get you to work more than that, and if you push back on those they will give up on it. The interesting fact is that, in IT and by comparisson with sistematically working 10h/day (which i did in another country), working 8h/day is actually more productive (as in, the projects are actually done in fewer days if people work 8h/day). Also a lot of people around here work part-time (not all days of the week and/or less than 8h day).
• Tax break for foreigners (the 30% rule). There is a tax break for foreigners coming to Holland to fill in a position that requires expertises for which it is difficult to find someone from the local worker pool. This roughly ammounts to having 30% of the income being ignored for tax purposes. The tax discount lasts for up to 10 years and can be lost if you're without work for more than 3 months (i lost mine this way when i was unemployed for 5 months during the recession). The evaluation of suitability for the tax discount is subjective but in practice, when there is a lack of people specialized in a specific area, most applicants for jobs in that area get the tax break. At the moment there is a great lack of people in IT around here
• No tolls on highways. All highways in Holland are free

Not so good:

• Taxes around here are high. The top income tax rate around here is 52% and is levied on the any yearly income above (roughly) 33000 EUR (about $50000). VAT is 17,5% on most things except things like essencials (such as food) and books. Having a car around here is a constant drain in your pocket due to road taxes and expensive insurance.
• Public services are not public at all. Around here you pay for many so-called public services. Thus, for example, public transportation is expensive, people have to pay for any health services they use (since 2006 every resident in Holland is mandated by law to have at least the basic health insurance) and contributions to private pension funds are mandatory for most people.
• At the moment, Holland has Swedish style taxes (high taxes) and US style public services (almost none and you pay for everything). In my opinion this is the thing that make Holland a very unactractive country to move to at the moment - during the last 10 or so years the successive dutch governments have been busy tearing down public services while keeping taxes at their original (high) level. Currently people around here are taxed as if they had lots of free public services AND have almost no free public services.
• Traffic congestion

Re:Yes, and...

Do you really pay lower taxes? By the time you add up federal, social security, unemployment, state and local taxes you are probably paying close to 50% if not more. Add to that things like health insurance, tolls, and thousands of fees that you pay for services that other countries provide for free and you may actually be worse off.

Oh I forgot to add the extra weeks of paid vacation to that mix too.

Re:The Netherlands

As a 25-y.o. Italian, I can assure you that the people you see smokin'pot in the park all day are NOT maintained by the government, but by their parents. There is virtually no unemployment income in Italy (though I know there is in other European countries, often actually higher than my Ph.D. student income).

Italian social services are not that good, but in the end of the day are actually better than nothing. Having a painkiller is not that tough at all (the E.R. or the doctor will give you a so-called "recipe" to give to the pharmacist, and you'll often have your painkiller for free), an annual dental checkup actually is, yes. But I had wonderful and very professional service at a university clinic when I got appendicitis, without having to pay a cent. I have free basic medical analyses and so on.

"Virtually no concept of sexual harassment or workplace misconduct." - This is what keeps me at bay from USA. Not that I spend my day slapping my female collegues on the ass yelling them "yo!bitch", but sure no one minds innocent joking or even normal approaches. If you actually sexually harass someone, you're sure to be punished badly and be fired, but the approach to the thing is not as nearly as paranoid as I've read often about the USA. I shouldn't stand working in a lab where I can't talk less than strictly formally to my new female collegues just because they could feel "sexually harassed".

I like my old Europe. I wish to leave Italy, but to go to some Scandinavian country, probably.

Re:The Netherlands

Simple process? Hahahahahaha... I've lived in this cesspit called the Netherlands for almost 10 years. It is if anything an example of exactly how not to run an immigration system.

Yes you can come here if you find a company willing to hire you for a wage that exceeds 43K Euro - not that hard to do if you're any kind of educated professional... but you also walk into an immigration system that is broken beyond anything you can imagine. It's is simply legislated stupidity run by a government minister who hates foreigners with a passion not seen for decades.

If you have the misfortune of owning a passport from a non-EU county other than Canada, The USA, New Zealand, Australia or Japan, then you MUST learn Dutch before you enter the country, you cannot bring your spouse or children unless they also learn Dutch prior to entering the country (no learning Dutch after you arrive is not good enough). After you arrive you must go through an integration course (you're generally exempt if you're from one of the "good' countries listed above) where they teach you all the good things about the Dutch way of life.. like how to flush a toilet (yes they taught me that useful skill), how many wheels a car has (yes that was in my course)... how great and glorious the Dutch people are... how superior they are compared to everyone else... you have to answer important questions like... "what are Dutch men best known for?" and the correct answer being "their trustworthiness"

Trust me... the Netherlands is NOT worth the hassle. Do yourself a favor and go anywhere else in the world but the Netherlands.

I'm leaving here as soon as I can. I'm tired of not being able to have my family live in the same damn country as me. I'm tired of being told by this same Immigration office that if I want to live with my wife, I should just leave the country - and they tell that to their own citizens too.. not just foreigners. I have a close friend who is native Dutch and married to an African woman. The IND here told him there was no chance at all that his wife of 5 years would ever be able to join him here and that he should simply leave the country of his birth if he wanted to be with his wife, or divorce her and marry a good Dutch woman like he should have done in the first place. Yup, the IND here did tell him that... I've read the letter they sent him.

Oh, and yes you can apply for citizenship in the Netherlands but ONLY if you agree to give up your other citizenship. Anyone who tells you otherwise (that it's possible to keep your birth country citizenship) hasn't actually tried to do it recently. Used to be the case that you could retain dual citizenship, but now they won't issue the Dutch citizenship unless you've provided proof that you've legally renounced your previous citizenship. The danger here being... that for 12 years after gaining your Dutch citizenship, the IND can revoke your Dutch citizenship for any reason, and without a court order... so for 12 years your citizenship is at the mercy and whim of the IND... and they have proven that they can and will arbitrarily revoke citizenships of people leaving them stateless for no reason at all.

Don't come to the Netherlands except on vacation, and even then do yourself a favor and give it a miss... go somewhere more interesting.

Re:The Netherlands

I'm a native dutch person and I'm very ashamed to say that the parent is more or less accurate about our current immigration policy :-(

There's a chance that it will improve again, but currently there's a (grassroots/astroturf?) fear campaign against foreigners, mostly focussed on islamic cultured or coloured people, but americans as well (your current president isn't helping your reputation!).

My only apology can be that I didn't vote for this government.

Re:The Netherlands

I'm an American currently living in Amsterdam. The immigration policy for kennismigrants (literally knowledge immigrants) couldn't be easier! If you've got good IT skills you'll be welcomed with open arms. Oh, and how about making 30% of your income totally tax-free for the next 10 years? The government will pay for you to take 3 years of free Dutch classes (maybe depending on the gemeente, but Gemeente Zuid Amsterdam certainly does as I'm currently in the program). You just trade your US drivers license in for a Dutch one for with no test required. You can import 2 vehicles per person totally tax-free, and your partner (either gender, married or not) will get a work permit from day 1 as well. I think constantly about how Mexicans are treated back in the US, and I honestly have to say I can't imagine that there is anywhere in the world that welcomes immigrants as well as the Dutch welcome high-tech people with valuable skills.

I've been here 13 months and can't say I've regretted the decision even once. The Dutch are obviously having immigration issues with Muslims not being integrated into the population. But as they tighten the rules for the general population, the rules for IT geeks have gotten much more relaxed.

I work 40 hours a week, I'm home every day before 17:00. I bicycle or take public transport everywhere I want to go, I brought my motorbike over but just for fun. I get 28 days of holiday plus about 8 public and company holidays. Sure I took about a 40% pay cut from the US, but my quality of life has never been higher (pun intended :)

Re:The Netherlands

I had to reply to this. I'm an American living in Noord-Brabant, and have had exactly the opposite experience you apparently have. I moved here to be with my boyfriend under "family formation." I hold an MA degree and have an extensive professional background. I have been here 18 months, and have had nothing but hassles with the Dutch immigration system. The residence and work permits that are legally required to be processed in less than 6 months took 10.5, and when I did receive my first permit, it was good for a whole 6 weeks before I had to have a renewal. The renewal took a further 3.5 months, and I was not allowed to work or even seek work until July of this year (14 months after I moved here.) I am required by law to take Dutch language and integration courses. If I attend less than 80%, I am fined by the government. If I fail to attend, I risk deportation. These aren't facts I picked up from the internet- I was informed of this when I went to my first meeting with the city after (finally) receiving my permits. I could not trade my US license for a Dutch one- though I have been driving since 1988 in the US, I had to take costly lessons, a theory exam, and a practical exam before getting my Dutch drivers' license. The CBR (drivers' branch) informed me of this, and it was long and costly. I am not in IT, and though I have a solid professional background, job agencies tell me that the only jobs they can get me into are at call centers, for about 30% of my last income and less than I lived off of while going through college (gross, not net.) If you're in IT it is a lot easier to deal with the IND, but your company will be your sponsor and if you don't stay with that company, or don't change the paperwork and have your new company become your legal sponsor, you can and will be deported. The man's lucky we have a good relationship, or I would have headed back to the US a long time ago.

Re:The Netherlands

Which European country has 70% income taxes!?

Not the Netherlands, but we used to have it. Tax brackets, with all social security
payments (unemployment, disability, pension arrangement, widow and orphan pension
arrangement, child rearing benefit, collective health insurance for disproportionate
risks) included, are:

0 to 16,893 = 33.55% (15,65% for 65+)
16,893 to 30,357 = 40.50% (22,60% for 65+)
30,357 to 51,762 = 42.00%
51,762 and up = 52.00%

Interest paid on mortgage loans is deducted from your income first (people who rent
a home get a benefit dependent on taxable income, and profit from very generous
government price controls). And from the resulting amount you subtract 1895.

This results in an effective tax pressure of 9.9% on income and profits, compared to
10.9% in the US and 14% EU 15 average (and in all of them it is the rich and the
very poor that pay very little at the expense of the middle incomes).

The real extortion is in consumption taxes, for instance fuel, resulting in 38.8%
of GDP as tax revenue (compared to US 25.4% and EU 15 40.6%). People in the US on
average spend nearly 10% of GDP more on privately financed health care, and need
more additional insurance to have a similar level of protection against risks.
When you factor this out, the real difference between most western countries is
within a 3% of GDP margin.

Marginal Tax Rates

See the OECD Tax Database [oecd.org] for lots of data (in Excel format) on comparative tax rates in various countries. The US is relatively low-tax.

This table shows top marginal tax rate, factoring in social security-type contributions if they are separate. The actual definition for the number is "The all-in (top marginal) tax rate, calculated as the additional central and sub-central government personal income tax, plus employee social security contribution, resulting from a unit increase in gross wage earnings. The all-in rate takes account of the same aspects as the combined rate, but does in addition include employee social security contributions and if they are deductible in central government taxes etc." This table is for 2005.

Hungary 69.5%
Denmark 63.0%
Belgium 59.3%
Sweden 56.6%
Finland 56.5%
Netherlands 52.0%
Poland 51.8%
Norway 51.3%
Greece 49.6%
France 48.6%
Australia 48.5%
Ireland 48.0%
Luxembourg 47.9%
Japan 47.9%
Switzerland 47.9%
Portugal 46.6%
Canada 46.4%
Spain 45.0%
Germany 44.3%
Italy 44.1%
United States 42.7%
Austria 42.7%
Turkey 41.1%
United Kingdom 41.0%
Czech Republic 40.5%
Iceland 40.2%
New Zealand 39.0%
Korea 38.2%
Slovak Republic 29.9%
Mexico 24.6%

Re:Sorrier than you can imagine

WHAT!?! It's 2008 already? Fucking Warcraft...

Re:The Netherlands

To reply to your obviously UNINFORMED response...

"You DON'T need to speak Dutch before being accepted, no matter where you are from."

Sorry bud.. try again. I'm quoting from the Dutch IND website.

=-=-=
Civic integration examination abroad introduced

As of March 15th migrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship are required to take the civic integration examination abroad.

Many people aged between 16 and 65 who need an authorisation for temporary residence (MVV) in order to come to the Netherlands will first be obliged to complete the civic integration examination abroad in their country of residence. This applies, amongst others, to people who wish to form a family with someone in the Netherlands (for example, through marriage or by forming a relationship) and to religious leaders coming to the Netherlands for employment, such as imams or preachers. In many cases, obtaining the integration examination becomes an additional condition needing to be met before an MVV can be issued.

The examination tests fundamental knowledge of the Dutch language and Dutch society. The examination is held orally, in Dutch, at the Dutch embassy or consulate general in the foreign national's country of residence. Taking the examination will cost approximately 350.
=-=-

So.. read that... it DOES matter where you're from, and YOU MUST SPEAK DUTCH BEFORE YOU ENTER THE COUNTRY. That fundamental knowledge test is administered OVER THE PHONE by a computer voice recognition system. If you have any kind of accent, good luck getting it to recognize your attempts at speaking Dutch.

So on your first point, you're WRONG.

On point 2, you're wrong again. Have you actually viewed the video that the IND created for foreigners wishing to come to the NL? Have you? I doubt it. Have you gone to your local Stadshuis and attended the integration courses? I'm not talking the ROC sponsored courses... I'm talking about the MANDATORY course that you have to attend that is administered by the City Council. It's crap. I've gone and done it... and they did teach us important things like.. flushing a toilet and how to make that wonderful Dutch food called stampot. Apparently knowing how to make stampot was more important that learning Dutch history and the place the NL holds in the world community.

On point 3... that was the case years ago... before Rita Verdonk got her grubby hands on the IND. Now it's pretty much impossible to bring a family here. Go get your copy of the Volkskrant... read it.. there is an article in there.. wait, I'll link it for you
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article360232. ece/Aantal_aanvragen_voor_gezinshereniging_daalt [volkskrant.nl]
For those of you who don't read Dutch, the highlights are... Up to the month August this year, 17,000 family reunification applications were filed. In 2005, there were 30,000 applications, and before that, 42,000. Since the implementation of the new law that you must speak Dutch prior to entering the NL, 1384 people have passed the exam.

On point 4... check again... it used to be allowed to have dual nationalities here in the NL... not anymore - as of about 5 years ago actually... the Dutch Immigration law states you MUST renounce your birth citizenship.

Quoting again from the IND website from the section on conditions for citizenship:
=-=-=
You are prepared to give up your current nationality. If you do not give up your current nationality even though you are supposed to, your Dutch nationality may be revoked.
=-=-=

Point 5... Wrong again. Geez... did you do any research at all on this? You must be a permanent resident for FIVE years, not six. The 12 year number is NOT bullshit. Again, quoting from the IND website:
=-=-=
Your Dutch nationality may be revoked. This can happen even as long a

Re:The Netherlands

You would be surprised, but drug use among native Dutchmen is among the lowest in Europe. Mostly German and English tourists use it (when I hear/see an Englishman in Amsterdam, I can smell weed too most of the time). Labdrugs are mostly for export. OK, nothing to be proud of, but if you thought everyone and his sister was an addict, you're wrong.

Re:The Netherlands

Which is exactly why the "war on drugs" is bullshit.

Re:The Netherlands

Correction: Weed is not physiologically addictive, only psychologically.

Plenty of things are physiologically addictive (caffeine, heroin, cocaine, etc). Weed is not.

Psychological addiction is "real" addiction, but:

1. It's normally not as physically/medically dangerous as physiological addiction, because it's only your behaviour and attitudes which change, not your body-chemistry. Psychological addiction won't damage your body - the worst it'll do is make you carry on doing things that might.

2. There's no guarantee that anyone will ever get psychologically addicted to anything. Take heroin regularly for more than a few months and (barring genetic freaks) it's more or less certain you'll get addicted. Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.

3. If something's "only" psychologically addictive, we historically don't tend to ban it. Shopping, chocolate, sex and gambling are all psychologically addictive, so banning everything which may cause pysychological addiction is clearly a non-starter.

Because it's "only mental" this tend to be where we draw the line between "banning dangerous activites" and "not being a nanny-state" - ultimately psychological addiction is merely a question of discipline, determination or strength of character, and most people believe they shouldn't be banned from their hobby activity simply because some people aren't adult enough to know their own limits.

WoW

Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.

You had me up until then.

Re:The Netherlands

How about gambling? Seems pretty addictive for some people

I'll bet you ten-to-one that this thread will devolve into a flamewar!

Re:Visa, borders, etc.

In almost every case it comes down to visas and border controls that stop humans freely moving around their planet. On the surface it looks like a good idea, but it's absolutely ridiculous that a human shouldn't be able to freely roam the public spaces of their own planet!

No more ridiculous than you not being allowed to walk into someone's home, eat their food and sleep in their bed without their permission...

A better analogy would perhaps be being unable to buy a new house or move into the neighboring town without the people in that town deciding as a whole that they will permit you to live near them. It sounds silly, exclusionary, and backwards when we think of it in terms of a town, but most people still find it reasonable in terms of nations. In reality, the difference is only in the distance of our worldview and the scope of our self-identity, and in time and with increased communications, these are both broadening. Therefore it is likely that there will come a time when restricted migration across national borders will be largely regarded as backward, restrictive, and even oppressive.

Re:I don't run

[...]Only cowards emmigrate.[...]

Dude don't say that, it's really kind of offensive to people who at some point or another HAD to leave their country. Even if you're not being tortured, or anything really bad like that, who wants to have the police hassle them on a regular basis, not be able to work in their chosen profession, etc. Just little things which make your life suck, when it really shouldn't have to.

I support everyones right to emigrate if they feel like they need to. Emigrés have also often been the deciding factor in overthrowing an oppressive government, in fact I'd say it's almost a prerequisite to have a strong expat community if you need to overthrow the government. These people need their freedom and ability to work, in order to help raise awareness about what is wrong with the way things are being run, and make changes. Someone being in jail for political reasons cannot really do much to change anything.

Re:... where would I move? Finland has it all!

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.

You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

Finland has it all.