If Not America, Then Where? 2349
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
The Netherlands (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes you can come here if you find a company willing to hire you for a wage that exceeds 43K Euro - not that hard to do if you're any kind of educated professional... but you also walk into an immigration system that is broken beyond anything you can imagine. It's is simply legislated stupidity run by a government minister who hates foreigners with a passion not seen for decades.
If you have the misfortune of owning a passport from a non-EU county other than Canada, The USA, New Zealand, Australia or Japan, then you MUST learn Dutch before you enter the country, you cannot bring your spouse or children unless they also learn Dutch prior to entering the country (no learning Dutch after you arrive is not good enough). After you arrive you must go through an integration course (you're generally exempt if you're from one of the "good' countries listed above) where they teach you all the good things about the Dutch way of life.. like how to flush a toilet (yes they taught me that useful skill), how many wheels a car has (yes that was in my course)... how great and glorious the Dutch people are... how superior they are compared to everyone else... you have to answer important questions like... "what are Dutch men best known for?" and the correct answer being "their trustworthiness"
Trust me... the Netherlands is NOT worth the hassle. Do yourself a favor and go anywhere else in the world but the Netherlands.
I'm leaving here as soon as I can. I'm tired of not being able to have my family live in the same damn country as me. I'm tired of being told by this same Immigration office that if I want to live with my wife, I should just leave the country - and they tell that to their own citizens too.. not just foreigners. I have a close friend who is native Dutch and married to an African woman. The IND here told him there was no chance at all that his wife of 5 years would ever be able to join him here and that he should simply leave the country of his birth if he wanted to be with his wife, or divorce her and marry a good Dutch woman like he should have done in the first place. Yup, the IND here did tell him that... I've read the letter they sent him.
Oh, and yes you can apply for citizenship in the Netherlands but ONLY if you agree to give up your other citizenship. Anyone who tells you otherwise (that it's possible to keep your birth country citizenship) hasn't actually tried to do it recently. Used to be the case that you could retain dual citizenship, but now they won't issue the Dutch citizenship unless you've provided proof that you've legally renounced your previous citizenship. The danger here being... that for 12 years after gaining your Dutch citizenship, the IND can revoke your Dutch citizenship for any reason, and without a court order... so for 12 years your citizenship is at the mercy and whim of the IND... and they have proven that they can and will arbitrarily revoke citizenships of people leaving them stateless for no reason at all.
Don't come to the Netherlands except on vacation, and even then do yourself a favor and give it a miss... go somewhere more interesting.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
There's a chance that it will improve again, but currently there's a (grassroots/astroturf?) fear campaign against foreigners, mostly focussed on islamic cultured or coloured people, but americans as well (your current president isn't helping your reputation!).
My only apology can be that I didn't vote for this government.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
I've been here 13 months and can't say I've regretted the decision even once. The Dutch are obviously having immigration issues with Muslims not being integrated into the population. But as they tighten the rules for the general population, the rules for IT geeks have gotten much more relaxed.
I work 40 hours a week, I'm home every day before 17:00. I bicycle or take public transport everywhere I want to go, I brought my motorbike over but just for fun. I get 28 days of holiday plus about 8 public and company holidays. Sure I took about a 40% pay cut from the US, but my quality of life has never been higher (pun intended
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
*You* wanted to move to this country, so *you* should make an effort of blending into society.
Funny how when Americans say that about Hispanic immigrants we are called racists and bigots.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Insightful)
Common disinformation. In fact however they are buckling because due to globalization the companies "opt out" [icftu.org] of paying taxes at all, leaving the whole system on the shoulders of their employees.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Interesting)
Not the Netherlands, but we used to have it. Tax brackets, with all social security
payments (unemployment, disability, pension arrangement, widow and orphan pension
arrangement, child rearing benefit, collective health insurance for disproportionate
risks) included, are:
0 to 16,893 = 33.55% (15,65% for 65+)
16,893 to 30,357 = 40.50% (22,60% for 65+)
30,357 to 51,762 = 42.00%
51,762 and up = 52.00%
Interest paid on mortgage loans is deducted from your income first (people who rent
a home get a benefit dependent on taxable income, and profit from very generous
government price controls). And from the resulting amount you subtract 1895.
This results in an effective tax pressure of 9.9% on income and profits, compared to
10.9% in the US and 14% EU 15 average (and in all of them it is the rich and the
very poor that pay very little at the expense of the middle incomes).
The real extortion is in consumption taxes, for instance fuel, resulting in 38.8%
of GDP as tax revenue (compared to US 25.4% and EU 15 40.6%). People in the US on
average spend nearly 10% of GDP more on privately financed health care, and need
more additional insurance to have a similar level of protection against risks.
When you factor this out, the real difference between most western countries is
within a 3% of GDP margin.
Marginal Tax Rates (Score:5, Informative)
This table shows top marginal tax rate, factoring in social security-type contributions if they are separate. The actual definition for the number is "The all-in (top marginal) tax rate, calculated as the additional central and sub-central government personal income tax, plus employee social security contribution, resulting from a unit increase in gross wage earnings. The all-in rate takes account of the same aspects as the combined rate, but does in addition include employee social security contributions and if they are deductible in central government taxes etc." This table is for 2005.
Hungary 69.5%
Denmark 63.0%
Belgium 59.3%
Sweden 56.6%
Finland 56.5%
Netherlands 52.0%
Poland 51.8%
Norway 51.3%
Greece 49.6%
France 48.6%
Australia 48.5%
Ireland 48.0%
Luxembourg 47.9%
Japan 47.9%
Switzerland 47.9%
Portugal 46.6%
Canada 46.4%
Spain 45.0%
Germany 44.3%
Italy 44.1%
United States 42.7%
Austria 42.7%
Turkey 41.1%
United Kingdom 41.0%
Czech Republic 40.5%
Iceland 40.2%
New Zealand 39.0%
Korea 38.2%
Slovak Republic 29.9%
Mexico 24.6%
Re:Marginal Tax Rates (Score:4, Insightful)
Canada 46.4%
United States 42.7%
for less that 4%, I get free healthcare in Canada.
And don't forget, for all the American's who do want to leave the US, there are still US taxes to pay (unless you renounce one's US citizenship) as the US taxes its citizens regardless of where they live (which in the end just increases one's tax burden).
Re:Sorrier than you can imagine (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sorrier than you can imagine (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
"You DON'T need to speak Dutch before being accepted, no matter where you are from."
Sorry bud.. try again. I'm quoting from the Dutch IND website.
=-=-=
Civic integration examination abroad introduced
As of March 15th migrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship are required to take the civic integration examination abroad.
Many people aged between 16 and 65 who need an authorisation for temporary residence (MVV) in order to come to the Netherlands will first be obliged to complete the civic integration examination abroad in their country of residence. This applies, amongst others, to people who wish to form a family with someone in the Netherlands (for example, through marriage or by forming a relationship) and to religious leaders coming to the Netherlands for employment, such as imams or preachers. In many cases, obtaining the integration examination becomes an additional condition needing to be met before an MVV can be issued.
The examination tests fundamental knowledge of the Dutch language and Dutch society. The examination is held orally, in Dutch, at the Dutch embassy or consulate general in the foreign national's country of residence. Taking the examination will cost approximately 350.
=-=-
So.. read that... it DOES matter where you're from, and YOU MUST SPEAK DUTCH BEFORE YOU ENTER THE COUNTRY. That fundamental knowledge test is administered OVER THE PHONE by a computer voice recognition system. If you have any kind of accent, good luck getting it to recognize your attempts at speaking Dutch.
So on your first point, you're WRONG.
On point 2, you're wrong again. Have you actually viewed the video that the IND created for foreigners wishing to come to the NL? Have you? I doubt it. Have you gone to your local Stadshuis and attended the integration courses? I'm not talking the ROC sponsored courses... I'm talking about the MANDATORY course that you have to attend that is administered by the City Council. It's crap. I've gone and done it... and they did teach us important things like.. flushing a toilet and how to make that wonderful Dutch food called stampot. Apparently knowing how to make stampot was more important that learning Dutch history and the place the NL holds in the world community.
On point 3... that was the case years ago... before Rita Verdonk got her grubby hands on the IND. Now it's pretty much impossible to bring a family here. Go get your copy of the Volkskrant... read it.. there is an article in there.. wait, I'll link it for you
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article360232. ece/Aantal_aanvragen_voor_gezinshereniging_daalt [volkskrant.nl]
For those of you who don't read Dutch, the highlights are... Up to the month August this year, 17,000 family reunification applications were filed. In 2005, there were 30,000 applications, and before that, 42,000. Since the implementation of the new law that you must speak Dutch prior to entering the NL, 1384 people have passed the exam.
On point 4... check again... it used to be allowed to have dual nationalities here in the NL... not anymore - as of about 5 years ago actually... the Dutch Immigration law states you MUST renounce your birth citizenship.
Quoting again from the IND website from the section on conditions for citizenship:
=-=-=
You are prepared to give up your current nationality. If you do not give up your current nationality even though you are supposed to, your Dutch nationality may be revoked.
=-=-=
Point 5... Wrong again. Geez... did you do any research at all on this? You must be a permanent resident for FIVE years, not six. The 12 year number is NOT bullshit. Again, quoting from the IND website:
=-=-=
Your Dutch nationality may be revoked. This can happen even as long a
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
Just about all the info you posted is based on the OLD immigration rules. The NEW rules are much stricter, and like the original poster outlined.
If you can read Dutch, which I assume, please go to buitenlandsepartner.nl and READ about the subject before you speak. Don't just have a conversation with some co-workers and then automatically assume that what they say MUST be true and totally updated, and that their info is still accurate *today*.
I have a lot of trouble getting my white, AMERICAN fiancee in here, and we are considering moving to the States because the rules there are so much simpler. Holland officially has the strictest immigration-laws in the world, bar Denmark.
Apart from that, the laws ARE racist. If you are a black African male, you can basically forget it. If you're a white American like my fiancee you have a small chance. See the difference???
And speaking of money; It might be easy for some to make the financial demands (you MUST make 1441 euro netto per month, AND have a year-contract) but this leaves out 60% of the autochtone Dutch population.
You can bring a partner here if you are RICH, basically. People working in restaurants, teachers, nurses etc aren't allowed to fall in love.
Getting married, having kids; Doesn't matter to the IND. You must meet the financial requirements.
You have no idea the pain Verdonk is causing on people, so please inform yourself before you ridicoulously accuse someone speaking the truth of being a right-winger. It's people like you, who make OTHER people think that it's soooo easy, that cause the voters to think we must have even STRICTER laws since "It's soooo easy"
Sorry for the rant, nothing personal, I can see that you are an intelligent person, but please inform yourself & talk to people going through the immigration process right *now* before you spout opinions.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
France! (Score:5, Interesting)
I recommend France to anyone looking to make the plunge. It's what I did, and you really can't beat it. Good food, beautiful women, nice people.
I think that the primary differences between France and the U.S. is that the citizens actively participate in their government. There are some things I'm not entirely happy about. Police here can ask you for ID on the streets (though it's never happened to me), and speech is limited in certain ways (hate speech is not protected speech).
In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government. Something that impressed me was back during the vote for the European constitution, a book that explained the version of the constitution being voted on jumped to number one on the bestseller list during the weeks/months preceding the vote. It made me proud to be living here.
For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like, You may hear jokes about the French striking, because there is often some group in the news, whether it be the postal service, trains, air traffic controllers, on strike, but I think it's a healthy sign that not only are people working for change, but there's someone on the other side listening. Most strikes are resolved in less than a week, and life goes back to normal.
For Americans looking to make the plunge, you don't need to know any French to get started, if you want to work either in Paris, or in southern France near Nice (Sophia Antipolis is a huge office/science/tech park 20 minutes outside of Nice), but it's good manners to try. When I arrived, I didn't speak a word of French, and have since learned it well enough that I work entirely in French.
Also to note, you normally have to find a French company willing to hire you before you come if you are not a student. However, it's not too hard to find American or International companies who will hire you in the U.S. (pay you in dollars) to work in France.
If you want to date the locals, you will have to learn French. However, as long as your accent isn't too horrific, it's considered cute, and just as American women go gaga when French men say "enchanté" (nice to meet you, or literally enchanted), French women seem to go gaga over the phrase "my pleasure" when used to demur after having done something nice.
Re:France! (Score:5, Interesting)
For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like
Surely you must be living in a parallel-universe France, instead of the one I've been living in for a quarter century. Defiance regarding the state is rampant, there are whole cities out of reach of the police power, people distrust the government with a passion. In fact being critical of the executive powers is the national sport here. Yet there is a constant obsession with politics, which I think is symptomatic of a country fast sinking into fascism (be it of the collectivist or corporatist kind), where people are paralysed into believing salvation can only come from the very same people they loathe and curse at everyday. It's simply not healthy at all, it's like a pervasive mental disease that permeates everything, from friendships to work relations and even down to simple shopping interactions.
And there also is a fact that anyone considering moving to France should consider: french people are emigrating fast, at a rate of 100,000 to 200,000 each year, and it has been going like this for years already (2+ million people left the country, compare this with Cuba). This is the most massive exodus this country has ever known since the French Revolution ! There are reasons behind this continuous stream of people, reasons for fleeing this country.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Interesting)
I moved here about 6 months ago with the help of the company I work for. Because of my salary I was allowed to get what is called a "Knowledge Migrant" (kennismigrant) visa. This is a special "fast track" visa that is granted to people who make over 45,000 euros if they are over 30 or 32,600 euros if you under under 30. It allows me to bypass most processes for migration (no requirement for degrees, language classes, etc) but does NOT allow me access to the public health or pension system. Because I was able to follow the kennismigrant procecss, it was fairly simple to get settled in. Also, since I will likely be subject to the 30% tax ruling (an beneficial ruling) I will be able to swap my US drivers license for a Dutch one without taking any tests or classes. Being that Dutch driving classes can run into the 1000s of euros this is a good thing.
Life in the Netherlands is nice and the country is great. They say that 80-90% of the Dutch people speak English which I find to be accurate. I am always able to get around with English and the few Dutch words I know. I am currently enrolled in classes to learn Dutch, but it's an incredibly difficult language because the two languages I already speak fluently (English and Spanish) have virtually no relationship to Dutch besides some common sounding words. The society here is fairly modern and you can get everything you need at any time, except Sunday. Everything is closed on Sundays except for restaurants, which generally open around 4 in the afternoon.
I found this article of particular interest because often time, especially from Americans, I hear things like "This country is stupid and I'd love to leave". After living in a few different countries now, I can honestly say I'd rather live no where else permanently but the US. The Netherlands and the the UK (the other place I spent considerable time) are great places, but it's not home. Life in other countries is very inconvenient (yes, I know, an American comment) and the people are generally much more orderly and nicer in the US. This may seem like a shock to people in the US (and a shock to people outside the US too) but I truly believe that is how it is. Simple things like standing in a line to wait for services or having a quick meal do not exist here. I know that for some people that is a charm, but for me it's an annoyance.
As a final note, I recently sent my entire team (10 Dutch guys) back to the US for training on our product. It was in the SF Bay Area and they all had a great time. The weather was perfect, the people were nice, and they all particular enjoyed Starbucks (the Dutch are huge coffee drinkers). When they all came back, each and every one of them pointedly asked me why the hell I would move here and leave San Francisco. It was nice validation for me and the US and makes me even more anixous to one day return.
I hope this post has given some insight to some people. Until you have truly lived somewhere else you won't understand how lucky we are in the US. Simply visiting a country on vacation does not give you the proper insight. You really need to experience daily life in other parts of the world to understand how good you have it.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
Most Americans that I know, myself included, don't measure happiness in wealth. However, wealth is, to a large degree, a measure of your freedom.
In basically any of the situations in which you find yourself during your life, the amount of wealth you have at your disposal determines what options are available to you. You can be perfectly happy living off of the land in a subsistence society, but make no mistake here, choosing to be happy with your circumstances and choosing circumstances that you'll be happy with are two entirely different things. A penniless environmentalist might feel self-righteous waving a cardboard sign at the one annual rally he can afford to drive to, but a rich one can finance a wind farm and perhaps actually make a difference.
How much wealth you want to have is basically a measure of how much you care to tolerate the circumstances of your life being dictated to you.
Re:Real poverty is less than average, not just les (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes. Most of America's millionaires are first-generation rich. [nytimes.com]
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
As i progressed in my career and my salary went up i payed an increasing proportion of it as income tax. At this moment i work as a freelancer in IT and i make more than twice as much monthly (after taxes) as i did when i started working here.
At the moment, and due to the freaky way freelancers are taxed (i'm paying both employer's and employee's taxes and mandatory costs) the total ammount of tax levied on my base rate (the ammount that is payed for my services) is around 55%.
In other words, for every 8 hours i work a day, about 4h20m of those i'm working to pay the belastingdienst (tax office).
In two days time i will move to England.
-----
So, what are the good and the bad things about Holland (from the point of view of an european):
Good:
Not so good:
Re:Yes, and... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh I forgot to add the extra weeks of paid vacation to that mix too.
Re:Tax Burden is well under 50 percent in US (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyway, I'm not giving up on the US. It's filled with idiots, and there are "better" social support systems elsewhere, but if you're willing to take responsibility for your own future, it's the place to be. I plan on never seeing a dime from Social Security, so I invest for my retirement. I pay for my own healthcare, so I get to choose what level of care I get. I don't think the general human population can handle being on their own, or perhaps it's simply that having large social nets to fall back on makes standing by yourself seem too hard.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
As a 25-y.o. Italian, I can assure you that the people you see smokin'pot in the park all day are NOT maintained by the government, but by their parents. There is virtually no unemployment income in Italy (though I know there is in other European countries, often actually higher than my Ph.D. student income).
Italian social services are not that good, but in the end of the day are actually better than nothing. Having a painkiller is not that tough at all (the E.R. or the doctor will give you a so-called "recipe" to give to the pharmacist, and you'll often have your painkiller for free), an annual dental checkup actually is, yes. But I had wonderful and very professional service at a university clinic when I got appendicitis, without having to pay a cent. I have free basic medical analyses and so on.
"Virtually no concept of sexual harassment or workplace misconduct." - This is what keeps me at bay from USA. Not that I spend my day slapping my female collegues on the ass yelling them "yo!bitch", but sure no one minds innocent joking or even normal approaches. If you actually sexually harass someone, you're sure to be punished badly and be fired, but the approach to the thing is not as nearly as paranoid as I've read often about the USA. I shouldn't stand working in a lab where I can't talk less than strictly formally to my new female collegues just because they could feel "sexually harassed".
I like my old Europe. I wish to leave Italy, but to go to some Scandinavian country, probably.
Italy vs. Norway (Score:4, Interesting)
Hi there! I am an Italian who never worked in Italy and moved out as soon as I finished education. Almost thirty and not a day unemployed yet :-)
Though you will hear Giovanni Birramedia ("Joe Sixpack") and populist politicians complain about high taxes, those are quite standard rates in Europe. Except for the 50% which is simply untrue (though it is a popular stereotype, you might have heard it said). Gas is currently at about 1.2 euros/litre. Anyway, I will take high taxes over social inequality any day: a bit because of I have a sense of justice, a bit because I do not like getting mugged.
Well, it's no news there is a high and endemic level of corruption in Italian politics. Again, every country has the politicians it deserves, and the current Zeitgeist is such that a former minister can be sentenced to six years in jail for heavy corruption charges (Cesare Previti [wikipedia.org] was sentenced for having basically bought the whole courthouse in Rome) and half the population will still believe that it is a persecution of communist judges. Tolerance for corruption is so high that we have boss and vice-boss of the military secret service under investigation for kidnapping and torture, and no one seems to care. I mean, no one has actually asked them to resign.
That surprises me. Either you got a wrong impression, or the situation in the US must be similar to the jus primæ noctis. The lower layers of society (illegal aliens and such) are regularly mistreated [repubblica.it] at the level of downright slavery. I suppose it depends a lot on the branch you work in.
That has something to do with catholicism—you have to achieve sanctity through pain. That's not really what the doc is thinking, but just because it is unusual to give painkillers doctors are not used to that. This has been subject of debate in recent years, so maybe it has improved.
Italy sucks for that. If you want to be successful in Italy you must play much more politics at work and in the larger sense than in other countries, and you must be "blackmailable": the system rejects noncorrupted, as the system is built on a gigantic Mexican standoff where everybody must be able to trash anybody else in a sort of mutual-assured-destruction way. That's what comes out of endemic corruption. Of course there are bunches of honest people, but they are far away from power and kept there.
Now, I live in Norway. The main disadvantage I have found is that locals always talk their dialect rather than standard Norwegian, which is kind of irritating. Of course, you get that if this is the main problem I could find, there aren't really that many. The Norwegian tax level is sometimes indicated as the highest in the world, but I never paid more than 25% of direct tax (income tax, social security, fortune tax and so on). VAT is high (25%) and so are food prices because of protectionism (for some reason Norwegian think of themselves as a people historically of farmers, instead of pirates (Vikings) in the past and oil exporters (North Sea) now. Wages are fairly high (especially for Italian standards: a PhD student turns in over 2,300 euros/month. That's
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
Corrolary: Non-correlation disproves causality.
A & !B => !(A => B)
Hence the war on drugs is bullshit.
Non-correlation does not necessarily disprove (Score:5, Insightful)
Non-correlation does not necessarily disprove causality, but it is a strong argument. (Stronger than correlation implying causality.) For numerous examples, consider the book "Why Things Bite Back". Here's a hypothetical: assume that helmets save lives. Specifically, if you're in an accident the helmet will "cause" you to live 90% of the time. Also assume that otherwise you live 0% of the time. (These numbers are completely made up, so just accept them for the sake of this example.) Now, also assume that people only wear a helmet when they're driving on certain roads, and that these roads have a 50% chance of resulting in an accident. Other roads have a 5% chance of resulting in an accident. So, in this purely made up example, every time you drive you have a 5% chance of death when you wear a helmet, and a 5% chance of death when you don't wear a helmet. No correlation, even on the assumption of causation.
Now, I want to repeat that non-correlation is a strong argument against causation. It just doesn't disprove it.
ALERT ! (Score:5, Funny)
*BZZZZZZT*
Your geek license has been temporarily suspended.
Please review the truth table for logical implication.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_implication [wikipedia.org]
The Netherlands- MUCH better reasons! (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't drink, smoke or use drugs. There are numerous reasons not to indulge, and I found them all when I used over 20 years ago. False anti-drug propaganda is not necessary in the light of the real reasons for not using drugs.
However, the arguments for not using drugs do not support the case for making war on drugs, which is an entirely different issue. IMO, the consequences of our drug war far outweigh the harm caused by what would be legal drug use.
A couple of factoids (not sufficient for decision-making): The UK had almost NO drug-related crime when drugs were available from the National Health Service. Since Thatcher joined Reagan's War on Drugs, the incidence of of violent drug-related crime has shot up astronomically. http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/drugwa r.html [easystreet.com]
I heard a lecture by an economist at Rice University (I forget his name), and he claimed that if we stopped our War on Drugs, the price of a hit of crack would drop to about the price of a couple of aspirin. (His argument was that with costs so small, violence and theft would not be worth the risks.)
Now that I've said that, remember that the original question was,"Where would you go?" Drug availability should not be the deciding factor.
At this time, the USA is still a slightly better place to live than almost anyplace in the World, especially eonomically. It is deteriorating, but it is still better. According to the "Pocket World in Figures" (2003 is my latest), only the citizens of Luxembourg have more purchasing power than the average US citizen. Our purchasing power is higher than Japan, Germany, France, England and Canada. I correspond every day with friends who live in Sweden and Norway. They all love it, but it's only a good place to live; not to make money. Things are scarce, money is scarcer. (They have incomes of approximately $3000/mo USD, and this is GOOD income in Sweden! But it buys a lot less than the USA.) This seems to be true of Denmark, also. A friend of mine (Chinese-American with law offices in Houston, Singapore and Rotterdam) says that taxes in the Netherlands take about 75% her income there, prices are high, and services are slow. A friend of mine in Italy said it took her 6 months to get a dial-up internet connection in Rome two years ago, and it costs 4 times what she'd pay in the States. (She met a lot of nice friends in internet cafes, though.)
Although the Pocket World in Figures somehow calculated that Canada has the highest quality of life (the US second), I have relatives in Regina who had to come to the US for heart surgery because they couldn't get it in Canada; they were too old. Even if you are young enough, it may take 3 months or more to get a bypass or heart transplant.
I have friends who live in Japan and teach English (earn about $50,000/yr USD), and one who is a CPA working for an American firm, and they all say that the money goes a lot further in Japan, but most Japanese don't earn proportionally equivalent incomes.
It will change shortly: Those of us who are baby boomers will be retiring shortly. Social Security and Medicare represent about $50 TRILLION dollars of unfunded liabilities. Figure about $250,000 of debt for every man, woman and child in the USA, or about $1,000,000 per household of 4. (These liabilities are reported off-balance-sheet. If the US Government was Enron, Congress would go to jail.) The only way to fund these liabilities will be to raise taxes and create inflation, because it is such a huge amount of the GDP. Since most retirement funds are in the stock market, withdrawals will probably cause the stock market to decline rapidly and deeply. The repercussions will be felt all over the world, and places that might seem a great place to live today will not be so attractive when they can no longer sell their stuff to the USA and the USA is no longer a good place to invest. We
Ireland, happiest place on earth! (Score:5, Informative)
Seriously, we have a young population (of a mere 4 million for a reasonably large country), theres no sectarian violence, people are well known for their friendliness, and its very easy to get in with an IT qualification. Also, you can say what you like about the Germans, Netherlands or Scandinavian countries, but lets face it; they have no sense of humour. Ireland won the "happiest place on earth to live" award not so long ago, we have a great deal of wealth, and employment is in good shape. You wouldn't bat an eyelid to see politicians and leaders ambling down the street buying groceries, although the downside is crazy property prices, which by all accounts are soon to collapse. Emigrants come home!
War on Drugs - the American example (Score:4, Interesting)
Right now, the USA is a good place to live, economically speaking. That's because most people work hard as dogs (most, not all). As the population ages and declines (we're all too busy to reproduce and can't afford it anyway), how exactly can a government turned against itself and run by a bunch of hippie neo-cons help a situation like that? The fall of the roman empire comes to mind.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
Plenty of things are physiologically addictive (caffeine, heroin, cocaine, etc). Weed is not.
Psychological addiction is "real" addiction, but:
1. It's normally not as physically/medically dangerous as physiological addiction, because it's only your behaviour and attitudes which change, not your body-chemistry. Psychological addiction won't damage your body - the worst it'll do is make you carry on doing things that might.
2. There's no guarantee that anyone will ever get psychologically addicted to anything. Take heroin regularly for more than a few months and (barring genetic freaks) it's more or less certain you'll get addicted. Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.
3. If something's "only" psychologically addictive, we historically don't tend to ban it. Shopping, chocolate, sex and gambling are all psychologically addictive, so banning everything which may cause pysychological addiction is clearly a non-starter.
Because it's "only mental" this tend to be where we draw the line between "banning dangerous activites" and "not being a nanny-state" - ultimately psychological addiction is merely a question of discipline, determination or strength of character, and most people believe they shouldn't be banned from their hobby activity simply because some people aren't adult enough to know their own limits.
WoW (Score:5, Funny)
You had me up until then.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
No, THC is not stored in your fat cells, the metabolites for it are. That is, the stuff THC turns into after it is metabolized, or used. That stuff doesn't get you high, and it doesn't "wean" you, any more than eating your own feces is just like that steak you had last week.
THC is not physiologically addictive. I smoke cigarettes, have quit for almost a year, and I know what addiction is. I spent 4 years of my life stoned basically 24-7. Then I got bored of it, and stopped. Since then, I've tolked up about once every 6 months or so, and never had a "craving" before or after. I even spent a week high because I hurt my hands and was bored as hell. At the end, I put the pipe down, no craving.
I have noticed, however, that for some people, smoking pot makes them flat stupid. I don't understand why it happens to some and not others, but it seems to attack those who weren't that bright to begin with, and as far as I can tell is permanent. Careful.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
While true, there's a bit of misdirection in such a statement. It's not marijuana itself that's particularly harmful. Rather, it's the fact that people usually consume it in the form of smoke, and breathing smoke of any sort has harmful effects. You'd get similar harm from smoking dried oregano or grass clippings or business records or $20 bills (especially now that they contain RFID chips
The overuse of the term "addiction" is sorta funny, though. I especially like the concept of people being addicted to sex. All "addicted" really means these days is that you enjoy something. Being against addiction now just means you're opposed to anything that's fun.
But, at least here in America, we've always had a strong Puritanical faction. This isn't really anything new; we've just found a new way to frame it (as the political crowd likes to say).
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The Netherlands (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not for others to judge. What you do on your own time with your own money should be your business, not mine. Arguments about what you may do to your financial standing are specious. You can wreck yourself simply by using a credit card in specific ways, or re-financing your house without understanding what you're doing or even by doing all the right things in unfortunate circumstances.
As for "addiction", some people get into compulsive behaviors, some get out again, some don't, some don't get into compulsive behaviors. And I'm not talking about gambling -- I'm talking about everything. There is no underlying rationale that can sensibly be used to erode the liberties of everyone based upon the shortcomings of the few. Of course, using the term "sensibly" along with the concept of legislation is a bit of a cognitive disconnect, for which I apologize.
Liberty is what we are really talking about here, and liberty is on a steep, steep decline in America, subsumed by the "mommy" government's continual attempt to pre-empt anything it wants to one or more levels from it actually occurring, because the underlying rationale these days is that you, an un-indited, non-felon, stand-up citizen, can't be trusted with: guns | votes | free speech | habeus corpus | glassware | drugs | motorcycles | cars | your sexuality | disciplining your children | etc...
Well, as one wag famously put it, you're getting the government you deserve. Good and hard.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:4, Informative)
Physically, the harmful effects of cannabis result from inhaling smoke. Use of a vaporizer or oral injestion eliminate these and make its use quite safe. (Presuming one doesn't do something stupid like drive a car or operate power tools while high, a problem with any intoxicant.) The effective dose to lethal dose ratio for THC is trendously high; you'd have to smoke hundreds of pounds to die by overdose. (Which isn't to say you can't overdose into an unpleasant "too high" experience; that's distinctly unfun, but doesn't have long-term toxic effects.)
Psychologically, some people like using cannabis a whole lot, and have trouble moderating or stopping. This can also be a problem with TV, MMORPGs, sex, relationships, thrill sports, music, exercise...
Of course, no amount of harmful effects would justify the state interfering with a person's choices about their body. But given the safety of cannabis use, its prohibition is particulary hypocritical.
(Once upon a time, "addiction" was a well-defined syndrome marked by tolerance, withdrawl, continued use in the face of health problems, and repeated failed attempts to quite. When it became obvious that cannabis use and other behaviors that moralists wanted to ban didn't fit this model, the bullshit notion of "psychological addition" was invented.)
My experience working in a cannabis club (Score:5, Informative)
We taught harm reduction techniques, and in fact everyone that worked there had to take a class in harm reduction. Everything Mr. Slippery is saying is true. Smoking is the problem, not cannabis. We sold many varieties of baked goods and tinctures. We also sold several brands of vaporizers, and every new member was told of the dangers and options during their hour long orientation.
You can not smoke enough cannabis to kill yourself. You would pass out first. You would have to eat several kilos of high grade hash to do the job. Cannabis is mildly physically addicting, having withdrawal symptoms ranging in severity from coffee withdrawal to nicotine withdrawal (only without the intense cravings.)
The main danger of cannabis is demotivation, which generally only happens with people who smoke it to escape anyway. People who smoke it as a medicine for pain or appetite stimulation do not generally suffer from amotivational syndrome. But if you are smoking pot as an escape, as with any other escapist behavior, a lot of life can pass you by while you are engaging in that behavior.
The future (Score:5, Insightful)
Obvious (Score:5, Funny)
This thread is now closed. Please submit next Slashdot story.
I know, it's old fashioned and out of date (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I know, it's old fashioned and out of date (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Too cold (Score:5, Funny)
It's obviously the best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's obviously the best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
I fully agree with your statement, by the way. Mexico would be a far better place if more stayed and tried to make it a better place. By leaving, they only ensure that their corrupt government stays in power, this is why they encourage it so much (not to mention remittances). Not that I can blame them, leaving is certainly the path of least resistance.
Re:So True (Score:5, Informative)
Although the other poster disagreed with you (calling you racist) I completely agree. People wont understand how deeply is corruption mixed in Mexican's mind. I am a Mexican and I can see it. It is when you live or visit other countries were you find out that in my country corruption has become a natural way of life.
I marked in bold the statement you wrote which has been my feeling a lot of times in ACADEMIA. The first time it happened to my mom who is a teacher at a Mexico's university, she is the founder (and was the coordinator) of the Biology career in certain University. Everything was allright when she founded the career (with the backup of the maximum authority of the university called the "Rector" in Mexico). Then as soon as this person was changed, the department director started to make things hard because he thought that my mom wanted his place. My mom would NEVER going to be department director because that purely administrative.
The other was when I was in the bachelors degree; one of my teachers was daughter of the Rector (in another university). The department was basically divided in two groups, one where the Computer Scientists were and the other where the Soft. Eng. people where (this groups is where the daughter was).
I had a lot of problems in the last years because I used to talk and meet a lot with the Comp. Sci. people. The Soft. Eng. people were trying to get some permanent positions in the department (called "plaza") and they made a very dirty war against the Comp Sci. people.
Anyway, corruption is frustrating in Mexico, but as I stated in another post, it is that way because most people have learnt to live with it and to get something from it.
Moon (Score:5, Funny)
Visa, borders, etc. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd rather go live out in the nowhereness of Canada or Australia or something and get out of the way, but there's no hope for any of that in the near future as countries have lots of quirky requirements, laws, and rules for gaining entry
Re:Visa, borders, etc. (Score:5, Insightful)
A better analogy would perhaps be being unable to buy a new house or move into the neighboring town without the people in that town deciding as a whole that they will permit you to live near them. It sounds silly, exclusionary, and backwards when we think of it in terms of a town, but most people still find it reasonable in terms of nations. In reality, the difference is only in the distance of our worldview and the scope of our self-identity, and in time and with increased communications, these are both broadening. Therefore it is likely that there will come a time when restricted migration across national borders will be largely regarded as backward, restrictive, and even oppressive.
Re:Visa, borders, etc. (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people don't move because they've never lived in another country(or even another state) for a year or more to see if they like it or because of family ties. Sure I could move to another country, but everyone I ever knew won't be in that country that includes parents, siblings, nieces and nephews. Hell, whole families never move out of certain parts of a city because that's where the family is.
Oddly enough - Austria (Score:4, Interesting)
Come to the World Next Door (Score:5, Funny)
Welll..... (Score:5, Insightful)
As it is, I believe that America is exporting its culture at an incredible rate, and the best way to stop what I see as an unbelievably bad world situation is by attempting to modify it from within the States. I'm not doing a great job, but just being here and dissenting my little piece has more of an impact than living outside the country and bitching to other people that aren't there about how much my country sucks.
I lived overseas, and found that there were a few things true about me personally - 1) wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that. 2) wherever I went, I was followed by the influence of the things I had left the country to avoid, one way or another. Thus I am back here to attempt to modify the things about both me and the world around me that irked me so much when I was not living in the States. I don't know if I'll manage to change the world enough to make any sort of difference should I leave again, but by the time I can afford to leave again for any extended period of time, I will be able to say that I'm at least trying to alleviate certain negative influential factors that result from our social structure.
Canada is Full! Go home! (Score:5, Funny)
Beware of Canuckistani Beavers and Flying Pucks (Score:5, Funny)
You'll also have to get used to keeping a continual guard up against flying hockey pucks. This skill comes naturally to native Canuckistani's who grow up dodging pucks from an early age, but newcomers to the country often suffer a few concusions before they pick up the knack of knowing when 170 grams of vulcanized rubber is rocketing towards the back of their heads at upwards of 150kph. You should also realize that global warming may soon cause a massive housing shortage in Soviet Canuckistan as temperatures rise too high for igloos to survive the summer. Truly, the country is going to become a madhouse when people's 3000sq foot 4 level split igloos with attached garages melt into ponds.
If you do still decide to emmigrate to Canada, be sure to talk to Phil from Vancouver. He can get you set up with your government issue starter snow-shovel and official toque with genuine saskatchewan sealskin bindings and special patriotic pom-pom. (very important) Be sure the pom-pom is firmly attached. If you lose it, rest assured that a mountie will spot it. (Don't even try to run. They always get their man.) Losing your pom-pom will get you exiled to newfieland, which is a fate many consdier worse than death by poutine!
Obvious really. (Score:5, Funny)
Don't come to Australia (Score:5, Insightful)
In addition we are extremely poorly placed in relation to the most likely theatre of any future world war, and we have large quantities of uranium and natural gas which makes us an important strategic target.
* disclaimer, before someone who knows about Australian law attacks - we arguably have freedom of religion and a right to vote, and a limited right to freedom of 'political' speech, but all can be infringed on by federal laws with a legitimate other purpose
** yeah yeah, I know how politicised the courts are, but every now and then you DO get a decision like Hamdan in which the Supreme Court clobbers the executive for overstepping the line
Re:Don't come to Australia (Score:4, Interesting)
1. Australia is by-large not religious (I'm not talking about the institutions. I'm talking about the people). Most of the issues that spark heated public debate in the US because of their religious ("""ethical""") implications are non-issues to start with here or minor issues at best. Not because people don't care but simply because religious nutcases don't have anything that even comes close to their US lobby. Oh, and our president doesn't do things because God told him to.
2. The mentality is not a complete (at least to the limited extent of my experience from living in the US and.. well.. TV), utter shitpile. Apologies to whomever lives in the pockets of educated and civilized society in the US (which I acknoledge exist yet are somehow not nearly influential enough when it comes to interacting with the outside world). In Australia, the vast majority of people, both the ones on TV and the ones you meet, don't live in this "my-business-is-none-of-your-business" and "that's-not-my-problem" mindset.
3. Australians don't get forcefed with propaganda dumbing them down and telling them who is good, who is bad and what to think (I think Americans call this "Fox News") and don't view the world through a bipolar "everything is either black or white" oversimplified good-vs-evil prism.
4. While the government is often accused of having its tongue too deep up the royal American Hiney, the government gets things done, and lining up what the country has accomplished and what services (social, educational etc) it provides its citizens - up against any other country you care to name, Australia is world-class and in the lead. The vast majority of things that get done here get done right, and when you ask something along "why did the government do that, there is always a simple and logical solution behind it. Things just make sense. Our policies are made listening to scientists, not celebrities or industry cartels (most of the time, at least).
5. Most aussies don't winge about problems. They sort them.
6. The only two things Australians worship religiously is nature and quality recreation.
7. We don't block vegemite imports (bad, bad folate! vit B12 makes you stupid!) after they make films like "Supersize me!" about what we do consider legal (and by the same coin, not bad for you I guess) to import and/or sell as food. Anyone for an extra-fat supersize cheeseburger and a 5-gallon coke?
Expensive? somewhat. It's the price one pays for living in modern society.
Australian mentality is all the good traits of the American mentality pooled in with all the good traits of some European ones, minus most of the bad stuff of either side. That alone is worth spending one's life here.
Ok. I'm done. Mod me to hell, American fanboys!
Re:Don't come to Australia (Score:5, Funny)
Don't bloody tell everyone on
Mars (Score:5, Funny)
it will take your breath away.
(No, seriously, that's the reason why NOT to go)
I'm not telling (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'm not telling (Score:5, Funny)
I guess America will be heartbroken to lose someone with your logic skills.
EU (Score:5, Insightful)
That's easy,
Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.
Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).
And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.
25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.
And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.
Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.
Re:EU (Score:4, Informative)
I think mistakes like these show the problem with most 'mericuns: clueless when it comes to anything outside the States. No offense, but your president thinks Africa is a country. We don't call Miami a state, or Florida a city. Get your facts straight before you come over here. That's all.
where to, why not (Score:4, Insightful)
Easy. 1) New Zealand, 2) Money (or the lack thereof).
If you think hard, probably two things are keeping people to go where they think (or know) their lives would be better (for them, since this is as much subjective as objective):
- people: family, friends, neighbors, you name it, people can become very attached to others,
- financial resources: if you have to work 10-16 hours a day for living, paying mortages, etc., schooling your kids, its not that easy to just stand up and leave.
Until the average level of living throughout the planet won't reach a certain level, most people will just be stuck to places, all their lives long, give or take a few travels.
As a Scandinavian... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, when in USA I feel that I am so far away from everything. Manhattan is the exception. In LA I have an hour in a car to anything. In Las Vegas it takes a day to get anywhere else.
So even if I am closer to many things when in USA, there are fewer things that I am really close to (walking distance). If it takes 5h or more to get there by car, the Atlantic ocean doesnt make a huge difference anyway.
Please, come to Germany. (Score:5, Funny)
Greece (Score:5, Funny)
Barcelona, Spain (Score:5, Interesting)
living in Barcelona: pros
1. the flow of time is different, slower somehow. people have more time outside of work and seem to make spending it with each other a priority. It's not that the work hours are so different, it's more of a cultural thing- work is usually not the center of one's life, or something they use to define themselves. for instance, you can get to know someone over months and never find out what they do (this may be related to con #1, see below.) most people get a month of vacation each year, plus innumerable long (3 and 4 day weekends). there's a big emphasis on getting together for long, tasty meals and laughing and drinking good wine. we lived in new york for 6 months a few years ago (ending a 1-year stay 6 months early) and I felt like I was running all the time, never had time to be with my family.
2. it's easier to be middle class. healthcare is free, education is cheap, public transit is cheap and excellent (the latter is for barcelona, not necessarily the rest of the country.) we have two little kids (9mos and 5yrs) and no car and it's not an issue. on a salary of us$60k we live well, even with the dollar worth
3. the level of education and knowledge about the world of the average person on the street is pretty high, compared to the US. people have travelled, speak at least two languages (spanish and catalan and usually bad english, and french). the public schools start earlier here (3 yrs old) and are a lot more rigorous than the public schools I went to in washington DC.
3. you are close to a wide range of different cultures, should you like exploring. if you travel the same distance from say, new york to cleveland, you can be in much of north africa, most of western europe, a bunch of eastern europe. turkey is a stone's throw away. even within spain there are seven or so regional languages and cultures that are strikingly different. western europe is slowly mixing and homogenizing due to the european union effort, but it still seems like an adventure every time I get on a train or a plane. maybe this is just because I'm not from here.
cons:
1. the work opportunities and work culture suck. education being cheap or free, you have a lot of really well educated people and not enough jobs requiring their skills. thus employers are used to paying bad salaries, paying late, not treating employees too well, etc. maybe this is a holdover from the years of dictatorship that only ended in the 70s. higher-ups generally fuck with those under them and it's not pleasant. getting a job often has more to do with whom you know or are related to, rather than what you can do (this is a cliche, but it is _really_ true here.) these negatives may be changing slowly, I'm not sure. I came on with a US company and started telecommuting about a year ago and now work for spanish firms only as a consultant, which gives me a certain amount of freedom and leverage.
2. speaking spanish isn't really enough, to really integrate you have to learn some level of catalan (the regional language in which government and local business is conducted), which is sort of like learning portuguese- similar, but still another language (not a dialect). even if it were only spanish one had to learn, it's was a part-time job for a me for a few years to get good at a language. classes, etc. Some people learn can languages faster of course.
on living outside of the US:
one thing you realize is that the US is a good place for work and earning money (if you're educated and posess certain skillsets - if you aren't, it looks like wal-mart, doesn't it?) and that the fact that you can often be evaluated for what you are able to do, rather than your connections, is damn nice.
you also see a lot of things in press that
Sorry, there is nowhere for you to go... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sorry, but look around what your choices are:
1) Americanized countries (eg: England, Australia) : Same crap, different accent = Might as well live in the USA
2) Countries which hate America (eg: Middle East, France and most of Europe, Brazil, even Canada....). They dont want you, and will make your life miserable.
3) Third world countries (Africa, part of Asia,
4) Developed Asian countries (Japan, Taiwan, HK...) : You cant take the cultural change...
5) Sealand : Good luck getting a visa.
6) Tropical paradise: You dont have enough money to retire there...
Re:Sorry, there is nowhere for you to go... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a habit of saying "at least we're not like the states" but in fact in many regards we have the same bad habits as they have [e.g. polution, right wing movements, etc]. I think if Canadians hated the americans so much we wouldn't be visiting them so much.
That said, I wouldn't mind a big influx of Americans to Canada. Two words: "Melting Pot".
Canada prides itself on the pluralism and "mixed salad" style of immigration. You know what that gives you? Places like Toronto. Where none of the residents share any common values and the quality of life takes a sharp nose dive. I lived there for a while and honestly it's like you moved to another country. I'm all for respecting other cultures, but this is Canada, not a gathering place for everyone and their brother who want to change the land from under me.
Tom
Re:Sorry, there is nowhere for you to go... (Score:4, Insightful)
I have yet to visit a European country where the people weren't open and inviting, even after learning I was an American. In fact, most Europeans are quite the opposite of what you described. When we lived in Italy, most of the locals were excited to talk about everything (With French and Spanish being so popular in US schools, I think Italians are especially excited and supportive when we attempt their language). When my father visited relatives in Bavaria and mentioned to a local that he was born in a nearby, small town, he couldn't have paid for drinks that night if he wanted to. A few years ago, my brother spent a week in Norway, skiing, drinking, and hanging out with complete strangers. A co-worker went on several, recent trips to Germany, Austria, France, and Switzerland. The only political conversation she had was with a couple Canadians who were only asking if her nationality had been an issue. Obviously, it isn't.
I think even the Middle East assessment isn't completely fair. Ask some of the US soldiers and they'll tell you a large portion of the people are happy to have them, even if they won't yell that fact from a street corner. At the same time, I have friends in Jordan who have told us that it's really not a good time to visit, so I'll take them at their word.
New York City (Score:5, Funny)
Actually Rome probably has better food but that's just me. And Beijing is cool but there are always visa problems.
Vote (Score:4, Interesting)
Norway (Score:5, Informative)
For some, I think Norway is a good choice.
There are drawbacks.
It's not the place for those of you who love the big metropolis. Our biggest cities, Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger are only in the 100.000s, not in the millions.
Immigration can be tricky, unless you're married to a norwegian, from the EU, or have a desired qualification. Immigration also takes atleast 3-5 months for the paperwork (non-EU people, EU-people can come first, apply after), and you get only a 1-year work-and-stay permit which you need to renew yearly. After 3 years you get a permanent permit.
95% of the population speaks varying levels of english, most educated people speak it fluently. Nevertheless you'll be at an disadvantage until you learn the language. The language is in the same language-group as english and german though, so it's not very hard to learn. (80% of the words are recognizably similar for example)
Parts are rainy. The west-coast in autumn can be a shock (depending on where you're from). Normal rainfall in Bergen is like 2000mm/year. (less than half that in Oslo though)
Living-costs are high, especialy services are expensive. This is a result of the fact that your waitress, your hairdresser and your burgerflipper earns a decent living.
Recently moved to Sweden (Score:4, Interesting)
Sweden so far seems like one of the best places I could have ended up after leaving America. We'll see if I still feel that way after 5+ years
Perspective of a Muslim (Score:5, Interesting)
Paradoxically, the religious rights of Muslims in USA are more protected than in many Muslim countries.
Your Muslim sister can freely wear headcover, veil or burqa anywhere in US, while this right is officially denied in Turkey (schools, parliament) and Tunisia (all public places). In fact, in Tunisia, a policeman might ask her to remove her headcover on the street and make her sign affidavit that she will never where it again.
Your Muslim brother can grow a beard of whatever length (at some point he might be confused with a ZZ top fan), while this right is unofficially denied in Uzbekistan and many other Muslim countries.
Muslim organizations that are banned in Muslim countries such as Egypt, can operate freely in US.
As a Muslim you can read, watch, listen to any Islamic literature, video or CD (a book abd-ul-Wahhab - no problem, Hizb-ut-Tahrir booklet - no problem), while in almost all Central Asia post-Soviet republics you would likely to be targeted by police if they found out that you own this literature.
I am quite often called a Wahhabi, an extremist, a fundamentalist, and generally very-very-very bad person. By whom? In 100% cases - by people who call themselves Muslims. I was never called or referred to as such by my fellow Americans.
There are many bad things that US is doing now to Muslims, like, eh, killing them, for example (Muslims out of the country), by thousands, harassing them in the airports, jailing them for life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with wrong people (inside the country), referring to them in general (not to confuse with personal attitudes of Americans) as bad people of various flavours (fascists, etc.), supporting dictatorships. On the moral level this poses really tough questions of whether Muslims can live in US and pay taxes.
At this moment I feel like an old Jew from Odessa, who was given freedom of travelling in the dawn of post-Soviet times, went to the travel agency and after incessant queries about wide range of possibilities to travel to different countries picked by rotating the globe model, asked: "Do you have another globe?".
But that is ok. It does not really matter where a Muslim lives as long as he can practice his religion. This world is just a test anyway. My real nationality is Paradise (Muslims believe that all people's souls originated from Paradise), and THAT nationality I would definitely would not like to lose.
Re:Perspective of a Muslim (Score:4, Funny)
Not a paradox at all (Score:5, Insightful)
So, if you want to live your life according to the beliefs you have, the best bet for that is a nation that is tolerant of all beliefs. While they won't force others to conform to what you believe is right, they won't tend for force you to conform to what they think is right.
There's really no paradox here. If you go to a country like Iran that's run by Ayatollah, well you get THEIR version of Islam which might not mesh with your own. You also tend to run in to the whole "All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely," thing. If you go to a country like this US that's very free you are going to see all kinds of people doing all kinds of things you don't like, but they aren't going to tell you that you have to join in for the most part.
Go work for Uncle Sam overseas and see the world. (Score:5, Informative)
to work in the Foreign Service and support the work of our diplomatic
corps at embassies and consulates overseas. The recruitment period
ends on 11/3/06 - less than 10 days from now.
Working at a US Embassy has some major perks. When you work for the
government overseas they pay all of your housing and utilities. Embassy
housing ain't like Army housing. Think mansion in the 3rd world and
downtown apartments in the first world. Cost of living pay to help
afford life in London, danger pay for Kabul or Baghdad, hardship pay
for subsaharan Africa. Uncle Sam takes care of his own.
Sure the work is boring, the coworkers are annoying, and people
like to blow up your workplace. On the plus side, you move every
2-4 years, sometimes to very very nice places. You get USA and
local country holidays off (15-20 holidays per year) plus vacation
and benefits like every other USG employee.
Besides, how cool would it be to have a Diplomatic (Black) Passport?
Check the Department of State recruitment page here:
http://www.careers.state.gov/specialist/opportuni
The pay band quotes on the page doesn't seem too high, but remember
that the pay listed doesn't include all the freebies like housing,
utilities, cost-of-living, hardship, etc - many of which are tax-free.
I'd pay the numbers by $30,000 to get a real approximation of the value
of overseas benefits paid by Uncle Sam.
Re:Go work for Uncle Sam overseas and see the worl (Score:4, Informative)
Dealing with classified information is very high risk from a personal standpoint. The penalties of a security breach due to personal negligence is *very* harsh. And by the job description, you'll be up to your ears in it.
Also, an Information Management position isn't strictly IT work. It's a hybrid position consisting of both IT work and your rather mundane office-assistant paperwork shuffler.
Government employment has very nice benefits, and provides a very stable work environment. However, keep in mind that whenever you work with classified information there is a lot of risk/stress involved.
An answer backed by research ... (Score:5, Informative)
"The world's top cities offering the best quality of life" [citymayors.com]
Since half this thread debated the Netherlands, I'll point out that the top 12 cities are not in the Netherlands, but in these countries:
- Switzerland
- Canada
- Austria
- New Zealand
- Germany
- Australia
- Denmark
Almost pointless at the end of such a long thread, but hopefully some lucky soul reads this.
SLM
I love the USA (Score:5, Funny)
With what's been going on the last while, yes, moving crosses my mind. The place I'd go would be to one of several South Pacific or equatorial islands: Kiribati, Palau, Tuvalu, etc. The reasons I haven't left include friends, family, finances, and that I haven't assembled my ninja army to take one of those islands over. No, I'm not talking about being an American ex-pat who smokes and does the local hotties, I'm talking about going someplace and conquering it to live out my libertarian-anarchist fantasies. Anyone know where I can get a crate of AK-47s and a cheap hydrofoil?
Josh
I Used to Want to Leave (Score:5, Interesting)
Moderate me as patriotic troll, I guess.
New Guide to Leaving America (Score:4, Informative)
[All of the following is quoted from the Amazon book description]
Book Description
Had enough?
Whether you find the government oppressive, the economy spiraling out of control, or if you simply want adventure, you're not alone. In increasing numbers, the idea is talked about openly: Expatriate.
Over three hundred thousand Americans emigrate each year, and more than a million go to foreign lands for lengthy stays.
But picking up and moving to another country feels like a step into the void. Where to go? How to begin? What to do?
Volume 2 of the Process Self-Reliance Series, this smartly designed two-color guidebook walks you through the world of the expat: the reasons, the rules, the resources, and the tricks of the trade, along with compelling stories and expertise from expatriate Americans on every continent.
Getting Out shows you where you can most easily gain residence, citizenship, or work permits; where can you live for a fraction of the cost of where you're living now; and what countries would be most compatible with your lifestyle, gender, age, or political beliefs.
So if you've had enough of what they're selling here and want to take your life elsewhere-well, isn't that the American way? At any rate, it's not illegal. Not yet, anyway.
About the Author
Mark Ehrman is a frequent traveler and freelance writer whose work regularly appears in the Los Angeles Times, Playboy, Travel and Leisure, and numerous travel magazines city guidebooks.
Why to move (Score:4, Interesting)
I very quickly summarized the commentary here on why one would move from the US to several flamewars based on a lack of understanding of the culture in various non-US countries to arguments about tax burdens and arguments about what constitutes an addictive drug.
These are side-issues.
The reson one might be interested in leaving the US relates to something that my father shocked me by saying just some weeks ago.
He referred to the current administration in the US, along with their supporters in Congress at fascists.
Now, I respect my father. I'm not just out of his house and I'm not still reacting to the "awful way he treated me" when I "turned insane" shortly after puberty. My father has consistently earned my respect by tending to be right and by letting go of a lot of his own personal garbage. I also know that he lived through a time in which fascism was considered a viable political system in three countries in Europe -- with other countries admiring the "benefits" of a totalitarian regime that gives itself a pass for criminal activity. This is a serious and very shocking statement from a man who watched as the entire world fought against fascism and managed to win.
The US government is fascist due to several factors:
The Military Commissions Act of 2006 [georgetown.edu](PDF Alert), which was signed by Bush on October 17, 2006 [whitehouse.gov] suspends the writ of Habeus Corpus in a time that is definitely not a national emergency.
This preserves the "Law-Free Zone" set up in Guantanimo. These detainees are kept in isolation from US Courts who, if there is adequate proof would be all too happy to confirm that these people are dangerous. Camp X-Ray also serves as a zone where the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of Prisoners of War may be utterly ignored. We broke off relations with North Vietnam (and later, Vietnam) due to their treatment of US prisoners in a manner that ignored the Geneva Conventions.
The act also pardons everyone and anyone for all acts that violate the Geneva Conventions, including the procedure of Extraordinary Rendition [aclu.org] and backdates that exemption from prosecution to September 11th, 2001.
The President and his Executive Branch are given full reign in defining what an "enemy combatant" is. I recall that Hitler regarded Jewish persons within Germany and the territories acquired by Germany, as well as allied countries as enemies of the state. Also, anyone giving material aid to any enemy was branded with the same. There was no Habeus Corpus in Germany and the courts were puppets of the state.
What I'm saying here is that we have a very serious situation in the US where civil rights have been nullified by a political party that considers self-examination wrong and unpatriotic (there have been no committees in either the House of Representatives or the Senate to examine the conduct of the "war on terror") and are fully prepared to negate the entire Bill of Rights in order to maintain their grip on political power.
Many Americans aren't aware of how their rights have been suspended. Those who are find it hard to continue to live here.
Countries who honor the rights of their citizens and who do not give their executive branch the right to run roughshod over the rights of minorities and persons who hold political beliefs that may differ may look a lot better than the US today for a citizen concerned with our present government.
That's right, give up. (Score:5, Insightful)
You quit.
That's it?
It's over?
You're going to let your country expire because you're too lazy to get up off your asses and take it back? The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
Yeah, you've had some rough times. A few dickheads have metagamed and bent the rules towards their own sociopathic ends. It's hard to stage a revolt and take back your country when there are laws preventing you from doing so.
But you know what? There were laws against revolting from England, too. I'm sure that your founding fathers would have been hanged (lethal injection not being around at the time) or sent to The Tower (Gitmo not being around at the time either). Yeah, you might die. You might have to go to war. You've done that before - twice, and internally! - so that the side of freedom would prevail.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
Don't give up.
If you don't like what's happening to your country, then don't quit it. Fight it. Fight to keep your country safe and secure. The only threat to your country comes from within.
Be strong. Stay and fight.
Re:That's right, give up. (Score:5, Insightful)
I protested the illegal invasion of Iraq before it happened. All that was accomplished was that Bush emasculated the UN.
The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
None of this is true. What actually occurred was that wealthy white Americans wanted to get wealthier faster and decided to break away from England. The rest of the inspirational patriotic junk was a cover.
We annihilated the natives. 200 million dead during our drive to extend from "sea to shining sea". We were one of the LAST industrialized nations to eliminate slavery. We dragged our feet on giving women the vote. We traded with Hitler while knowing full well what he was doing to the Jews. We invaded the USSR in 1918 and lied about it in our history books for the next 70 years.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
I am American, and living in the South. Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. If other countries envy us, it's merely because they don't know us. Y'all think we're great just because we survived WWII? Look at Russia which beat back THREE TIMES the best armies in the world, once in the middle of their own revolution! Yes, we have freedom of speech, but that doesn't do much good when 95% of us believe that the world is going to end because the Bible says so.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
Read your history again. Hurricances and tsunamis you say? New Orleans is still uninhabitable in the poorest areas and much of that tsunami money hasn't materialized.
We held out a powerful dream to the world, especially during the Cold War, a dream of individual freedom combined with collective strength. But it was just a dream. If you are angry to find out that it was a fabrication from start to finish then you have only yourselves to blame for falling for it. The French said in 1789 that they would be a shining democracy and they begat the Reign of Terror followed by Napolean; USSR said it would create a laborers paradise and begat Stalin and the gulags.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
As
Re:I don't run (Score:5, Insightful)
I support everyones right to emigrate if they feel like they need to. Emigrés have also often been the deciding factor in overthrowing an oppressive government, in fact I'd say it's almost a prerequisite to have a strong expat community if you need to overthrow the government. These people need their freedom and ability to work, in order to help raise awareness about what is wrong with the way things are being run, and make changes. Someone being in jail for political reasons cannot really do much to change anything.
Re:... where would I move? Finland has it all! (Score:5, Funny)
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland has it all.