Would a CS Degree Be Good for Someone Over 30?

mbuckingham asks: "I'm 39 and have been programming for 20 years. By 'programming', I'm talking about the usual business applications type of stuff. Easy stuff really. I went to college for a while, but never got my degree. It bugs me that I've never completed my degree, but since I've always had decent jobs, it hasn't really mattered too much. I'm really bored with what I do every day, and I'm thinking about going back and getting the degree, because I think it will make it possible to move towards doing some more advanced, system-level type stuff. I know I don't want a MIS degree, because that would be rehashing everything I'm already bored with. Does this make sense? Would a CS degree or a Computer Engineering degree be better?"

I'm in a similar position to you.

[by Anonymous Coward]

And I went & did my CS degree.

And it does lead to more interesting job offers.

The trouble is, moving from doing business logic type boring stuff to interesting CS type stuff is that you have to take a $40k a year paycut. (and that's after you've had no income for the time it takes to complete your degree).

Its worth thinking about how important money is for you. In the end, I have my CS degree (and I feel good about it, dont mistake me), but am doing the same work mostly.

But I don't mind doing boring work for 6-9 months a year if I can take another 3 months to travel / do charity work / etc.

Re:I'm in a similar position to you.

[AuMatar (183847)]

40K pay cut? I do the systems type programming, and make far more than anyone I know doing buisness type systems- they tend to look for bottom of the barrel coders and anyone who took a certification course, where systems level programming requires brains.

Re:I'm in a similar position to you.

[krotkruton (967718)]

I think he meant that by quitting a job you've been working at for years and starting in a somewhat new field, you would take a pay cut. It's a 15 year business programming veteran's salary versus a 15 year business programming veteran's salary starting out in a system's programming field, or at least that's how I understood it.

Re:I'm in a similar position to you.

[-Neko- (67564)]

I don't understand why you'd take a pay cut.

Your salary doesn't start again at the lowest grade just because you get a degree!? Maybe when you are 24 and just get out of Uni with your little bits of paper, you would be on $40k less than he is now, but in your example he would STILL have 15 years experience. That counts for a lot. Not as much as the degree AND experience, but a lot anyway.

If he can get decent jobs already without the CS degree I'd wonder if it was worth getting, although I've been thinking the same thing - it doesn't make the job you're in any easier (most CS after so much experience is stuff you've done before. I did all the project management and general "Computing" stuff during my GCSE/A-Levels and learnt to code off my own back. It's not failed me yet and all the jobs I've been in have been on experience and general talent.

At least at the University I worked, there were two pay grades; academic and technical. If you didn't have a degree you were confined to technical. It paid less and you were automatically given less responsibilities. By the time I got out of the job I was earning as much as the incoming academic grade employees (and no student loan debt!). Now that I think I could run a CS degree in my spare time in quick time, I might. If anything, his pay should go up for his next job, just because they will be more sure of him because of the degree - when there is a range of starting salaries, you start from the degree and ramp up based on experience. Instead of them offering you the lowest amount for that position (either as a graduate student or as uncertainty and insurance for them if they can't quantify past experience to the new job) they will start higher because of the added experiene.

It won't make any job you're in more complicated - the current employers won't think "he has a degree now let's move him on to harder stuff" - they already know what you can do, you won't be asked to do anything more than you know.

I have 10 years experience at least on my part, I used to work in the CS department in a University, ironically after I left school and couldn't be bothered to get a degree. I determined I would rather have the money and not be bogged down with loans and homework, I valued my social life more than any student could manage without flunking, and the work they did on a CS degree then was.. really a bit much. Now, I look at the work some of my friends and colleagues are doing for CS degrees, and I end up helping with their homework and explaining past exam questions to them. It's SO easy to get one, especially if you've got the experience and been doing that for years.

It will do nothing but make the job hunting process a little easier; you can't evaluate experience past a certain point, but the degree will make prospective employers at least consider you a baseline of knowledge based on the degree or certification. Oh, and if you go the whole hog you can have letters after your name in 3 or 4 years, without even flinching.

Re:I'm in a similar position to you.

[cetialphav (246516)]

I guess it depends on what he means by "interesting CS type stuff". A lot of the true research type stuff will definitely pay a lot less than what you can make in the business world.

But for R&D of new products, there is definitely no pay cut. I have been working on high end networking gear and there is definitely not that kind of pay gap here.

Most people forget that there is way more to computer science than just coding. I have been working as a tester of complex networking and telcom products, and I am on the same pay scale as the programmers. We deal with the same complexity, it is just at different levels. Then there is the technical support (not the stupid help desk kind), sales engineers, training, marketing, and documentation. All of this is necessary for a good product, they can all be technically challenging, and none of it involves coding. I've worked with brilliant people in each of those positions.

But the really important thing is doing what is fun. I'm about to take a break from working and get a masters degree because it is something I really want to do. Will it help my career? I don't care. There are a lot of topics I want to study in depth that I just don't have time to do while I am working. It definitely won't hurt my career, but since I have a lot of good experience it might not open any doors that aren't already open to me.

Having said all that, I do think there is overwhelming evidence out there that getting a bachelor's degree helps your career. When almost everyone else in the industry has a degree, it really sticks out when you don't. It may not be fair, but it is reality.

well

[User 956 (568564)]

Would a CS Degree Be Good for Someone Over 30?

That depends. How are you at headshots with an AWP?

I am in a similar situation

[ganjadude (952775)]

Granted I am only 21, I started working on my CS degree when I was 17, went for 3 semesters and stopped. I have been hands on with machines since about the age of 7 and found the classes boring (the teacher tried to tell us how an ip address is exactly like a phone number, and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy)

Being 21 I find it IS worth going back to classes,even if its only part time. Unfortunately I found out the hard way no matter how much you know, without that little square of paper, they will not even look at you 90% of the time.

Now if you know someone who will open the door for ya great, but if not, at least grab some certs. They will at least look at you that way.

Re:I am in a similar situation

[Lithdren (605362)]

the teacher tried to tell us how an ip address is exactly like a phone number, and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy

You ARE crazy. How the hell do you fit a street address through a tube? Dont you know anything about the internet?

Geez, kids these days!

Re:

[MarcoAtWork (28889)]

and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy

I am not sure I follow your line of reasoning, as much as there are a few interesting comparisons between IP addresses and street addresses (with this paradigm it's easy to explain NAT as a number of different people living at the same address), still a street address has a certain implied sense of locality, while in general terms nowadays even being in the same class C does not guarantee a

Re:I am in a similar situation

[by Anonymous Coward]

I have been hands on with machines since about the age of 7 and found the classes boring (the teacher tried to tell us how an ip address is exactly like a phone number, and would not hear how its not really that much like a phone number more like a street address.... he said I was crazy)

He should have said you were fucking stupid. And then he should have told you to shut up.

There's no point in wasting his time and your classmate's time with such pathetic, petty "debate". A phone number is a much better analogy, especially when considering mobile phones (which is the only phone that many people have today).

Unlike a street address, but like a phone number, IP addresses are not fixed based on location. On an internal network, you can use whatever IP addresses you want, regardless of where your devices are, or where they might happen to move.

We could go on, but I don't know if you'd really understand such concepts. I mean, you couldn't even make it past your second year of undergraduate studies.

You're a cockbaiter.

[by Anonymous Coward]

When I studied CS in Ireland back in the 1980s, we had a term for people like you: cockbaiters.

No, the 'cock' portion of that word does not refer to penis. It refers to your cockiness. You know, the way you always think you're correct, when actually you're a fucking moron.

The 'baiter' part refers to how you, driven by your endless supply of cock and a need for attention, must constantly harass professors when they make straightforward analogies. You try to bait them into a debate, which in turn only wastes everyone's time.

Such people rarely lasted past their first year, and were surely gone by the end of their second year. I see that was the case with you. You came into the institution with all the cock in the world, and then reality smacked your sorry ass down, and you become a pathetic drop out.

Worth while? For you, or your employer?

[joe_cot (1011355)]

From my experience thus far (3rd year CS major), getting a CS degree involves very little programming, and involves a whole lot of theory, particularly math. If you're interested in the theory and mathematics of it, by all means, get a degree in CS. If you're not, the piece of paper will still break the corporate ladder's glass ceiling for non college graduates. However, realize there are other options, depending on the university: for me, there's IS (Information Systems), IT (Information Technology), CE (Computer Engineering), and HCI (Human-Computer Interaction). Those majors, with the exception of perhaps CE, won't seat you firmly into operating system land, but will open up broader opportunities than a straight CS degree would.

Note: 20, still in college, basing solely on conjecture and experience of colleagues and alumni.

Re:Worth while? For you, or your employer?

[makellan (550215)]

That varies widely based on school. I went to an engineering school where "Learn by Doing" was the motto and we were deep into programming from day one as freshmen. They've since split off the majors into CS (math heavy) and Software Engineering, which is what we code monkeys actually do all day. Software Engineering majors aren't that easy to find, but if you happen to be around a college that has one, it may be more useful to you than a CS degree.

Re:Worth while? For you, or your employer?

[Marxist Hacker 42 (638312)]

If you're not, the piece of paper will still break the corporate ladder's glass ceiling for non college graduates.

I have a Software Engineering Degree (Bachelor's), and 12 years worth of experience in the industry. One of my team leads currently has *NO* college degree. Where was that glass ceiling again?

It Depends on What You Want to Do...

[filesiteguy (695431)]

I think - honestly - that a CS degree at your time in life is worthless for the most part. I am in a similar situation, in that I have a degree in International Politics. Yet, I've been programming since age 11 and working professionally as a programmer, project manager and systems development manger since 1993. Many of my staff have CS degrees. However, I find that a CS degree does little for ensuring a person is well-suited for the task of developing software and/or running systems.

I have hired staff members with CS degrees who would be better off as real-estate sales staff. Conversely, I have one programmer with a history degree who is excellent at his job.

I am thirtysomething as well, and have no plans to go back to school for a CS, MIS or even a MSIS degree. In my opinion, the degree just gets you "in the door" as it were. Once you've got some (hopefully good) experience behind you, the degree becomes less important.

Keep in mind, too, that even as a manager, I get to write queries against SQL databases with 140M records - that impresses some of the young'uns. :P

I've been going through the same dilemma

[solid_liq (720160)]

I decided to go back to school to get a math degree, and either minor in CS or make it my second major. I'm 29, not 39, but I've gotten bored with coding business apps too. I decided to focus on math because it opens up other areas, as well, such as EE, ME, finance, structural engineering, and many others. I think I'd rather work with robotics than develop desktop/server apps, because I'll actually be able to physically interact with my creations. You might consider something similar to get more interesting work. I enjoy doing the math, hence my major, but anything with embedded systems work may be more interesting to you and therefore, CE might be a better tack.

Not sure what ...

[puppetman (131489)]

"more advanced, system-level type stuff" is.

System administration, or embedded programming? Or just challenging programming in C, or C++?

If your close to finishing your degree, I'd go for it. Typically, our company hires more on experience and skills than education, but that said, we have a tough time finding people in general.

You might want to do some functional interviews - find companies that do what you are interested in, and go in and talk to them. Find out if it's really what you are interested.

Once you find what you are interested in, tailor your courses to make you a good candidate for the position. IE if you are interested in embedded, real-time development, avoid "Ethics in Computer Science" and take the real-time programming courses. If your school is any good, they'll be very challenging.

A degree also gives you management potential; as you get older, you might want to get out of the grind, get an MBA. I keep reading that business+technology is very in-demand.

One final benefit of a degree - if you want to travel and work (ie move to Australia and work there for a year), a degree is almost mandatory for getting the visa.

I don't see why not...

[Alpha830RulZ (939527)]

It won't hurt, and it could be interesting. I went back for a second degree when I was 27, in Accounting, of all things. I used it to get a job with Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, which has led to a great career for me.

If you do the degree at the right school, a key benefit will be the availability of the career placement apparatus of the school, which is one of the easiest routes to a quality job with major industry players at the end of the process.

I agree with the person who noted that the more CS'y jobs pay less. I do datawarehousing/data mining/predictive modeling, and make much better money than the average Java/C#/C++ dev, based on watching the job boards. My work isn't as -cool-, but it pays well and I find it interesting. Sure, it'd be cooler to be a game programmer or device driver hack, but I like to play with my kids and golf, and if I have to write SQL and Crystal Reports stuff to make that happen, that's fine with me.

It's also fun to go back to school and babe watch.

what's your true goal?

[evilmousse (798341)]

i can't tell whether you're looking to use a degree to advance your career or not. on one hand you say you've not needed it so far, and on the other you say you think it might open doors. it doesn't sound like you have a specific goal for which a CS degree is a requirement, so lacking that, I'd say don't get an inferiority complex.

ask yourself, "do i enjoy dealing in underlying academic theories, or do i prefer concrete applications to real problems?". if you're tired of dealing in the latter, intellectually curious about the former, or want to gain some specific skills, go for it. if, however, you're just having a vague feeling of "missing out", i'd say don't. degrees are best attained with a purpose in mind, and it sounds like you're doing fine as-is.

if you're still not sure, why not try to find an appropriate class to take without committing everything, as a test of your own enjoyment/committal.

as someone who did the opposite and started with much schooling and less practical experience, i'll tell you i look over the fence at your green grass now and then too. i don't utilize the theory i've learned nearly as much as the more practical knowledge. the rare circumstances i do utilize the theoretical learning are fulfilling tho.

Take Paul Graham's Advice

[Dasein (6110)]

And stay upwind.

http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html [paulgraham.com]

Maybe a math or applied math degree?

You might consider a REPUTABLE online degree

[antifoidulus (807088)]

I am helping a friend with her degree from the University of Maryland(they do a lot with the military community and I am a contractor and she is the wife of a soldier) and from what I have seen the program is pretty decent, if a bit light on programming. They actually do real discreet math for instance(they have to prove a lot of things), and I was surprised since before I held a pretty dim view of online programs. I still hold that view on most programs(University of Phoenix being among the chief offenders), but there are some decent ones that you can do while still keeping your job. Hell, the company might even pay for it. My advice would be to find a program that is associated with a good program in meatspace and see what the requirements are. Even if you can just do half the degree online, that can still save you a lot of time and money, two things pretty much everyone is short on.

Neither

[N7DR (536428)]

OK, so I'm weird... but this really is my advice:

You're obviously not unintelligent. So think of what you would really like to do, and then teach yourself the langauge that would be most useful in that position. And then USE IT. Not for pay, but using it in the real world is the only way to really, really learn a language. For example, if my end goal was to be soemwhere it would pay to be known as an accomplished C progammer, I would teach myself C and then do something utterly crazy like start making simple contributions to the Linux kernel. Point to that sort of thing in an interview and you will already have established yourself as knowning (and having proved that you know) more than any other candidate.

Sure, this will be hard, and especially if you keep a full time day job it's going to be a pain and take a year or two. But you'll end up in a far better place than if you go the "normal" route.

No, this advice is not theoretical. You're welcome to ignore it, but don't do so because you don't think it would work. It does. There's a whole generation of well-paid people rather older than you who never had any formal computer training but got their feet wet in exactly this kind of way.

Back to school ! Yes!

[flak89 (809703)]

I'am almost 32, and like you, I did not complete a CS degree when I was 21. But, I've been working as a programmer, DBA, project manager, system administrator for the last 10 years, with some pretty good money. I then decide that it was enough, that I need to have this CS done at once. But wait.. They won't accept me at first because I haven't been at school for a while (universite de montreal, that is). I have to do some credits to 'prove' that I am still schoolworthy. I don't think it's much fun first, I wanna do CS. But while doing these credits, I discover that I can really use my computer skills at a professionnal level, but in another faculty. So I've applied in an Environmental Geography program, and I like it ! I've been doing it for a year now, doing remote-sensing and numbercrunching with ease. I work part time at my last employer, and it's ok. Less money, but enough to do a trip per 2 years oversea, +the usual stuff. I think that when you are 30 and going back to school, you really know what you like, and what you don't, compared to youngster around. And experience cannot be so much learn at school neither, so you can really keep it up if you want it. Good luck to you ! flak

Re:

[Mendax Veritas (100454)]

On the other hand, accreditation is no protection against potential employers looking at your resume, noting that you got your degree from an online diploma mill, and deciding you're probably not worth interviewing on that basis alone. It's an old joke that BS means "bullshit", but this sort of thing makes it less of a joke.

Re:Find a college that takes life experience

[eclectro (227083)]

Well I think there was a day when what you said may have been true. But don't think that isn't going to rapidly change when everyone gets faster broadband. The demand continues to grow in this sector, and I suspect that online degrees will gain increasing currency because traditional schools will simply become less attractive to those that don't want to put up with everything from weird antics of professors to parking problems.

Thousands of people are paying bills online now too. A concept unheard of seven years ago. If you can trust an online bank, why couldn't you trust an accredited online school?