Replacing a Thinkpad? 902
An anonymous reader writes "As a very happy Thinkpad T20 user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another Thinkpad T-series. However, Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company, and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in China... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?"
Yes, you're being silly (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Informative)
Of course not. Unless you mail order it from Beijing. Where are you going to buy it? In the US. At least half the money will stay in the US. From Wikipedia
Buy a second-hand Thinkpad in the US, then 100% of your cash will stay here.Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Insightful)
Do not misunderstand me... I find it great that he does that. However, I fear, he's going to have to stick to his current laptop. There is no was to get a computer that isn't manufactured at least partially in China.
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Insightful)
True, though he can certainly minimize the dollar count going to China. Buying Lenovo would be giving every single dollar of the purchase to a Chinese company (though how they are directly related to the atrocities there... I'd never know), whereas buying, say, Dell, would only be giving manufacturing costs, while R&D remains here.
As a Chinese-Canadian I'm glad there are people who, at the very least, are willing to think along this guy's lines. There are awful, horrifying things going on in that country and it's nice to see some people who aren't so American-centric they can't point out China on a map, much less the atrocities being committed there.
As a side note... From my experience, more Americans know about these atrocities than Chinese. It's depressing, really. It's also depressing the number of new Chinese immigrants who are totally blown away by Canada's democratic government, since they thought (or were taught) that they had democracy all along.
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Interesting)
Depends on where your from, my relatives in Xin Hua and Guangzhou are acutely aware of the deficiencies with their government. They are aware of the bad things that go on but persist to live a quiet live to avoid that trouble. But they're in a different socio economic class then the rest of China. They're owners of factories, doctors, accountants, the upper middle class of china. Their proximity to HK might be part of it too.
They have had brushes with some of it. My uncle was offered a promotion to Dean of one of the medical schools in the region. He had been a professor for a long time and was about to retire. He smelled a fish and took early retirement instead. Turns out they were attempting to find a scape goat for some embezzlement that happened. The person they did promote was arrested for embezzlement.
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Interesting)
One the truly puzzling things about most Chinese that I meet is there bottomless capacity to defend the snake of a government they have - even the ones that have already immigrated away. I find that the upper-middle class tends to be the worst - the ridiculously rich are too educated to fall for the government's lies, while the poorest suffer too much to believe anything the government says. It's the people who fall down the middle that actually believe the things the government teaches them.
I've known many Chinese who admit their government's deficiencies, and admit that officials are almost always corrupt and self-serving. But for some reason they still declare their allegiance to the government, claiming that as a Chinese by blood they cannot possibly turn away from the Chinese government. This puzzles me greatly, since I've long ago refused to consider myself a supporter of anything BUT a Western democracy - if the government is shooting your kind by the hundreds, is corrupt, etc etc, what kind of loyalty do you owe to them? It seems very ego-driven, and amounts to stubborn refusal to admit that perhaps the West has a better sociopolitical system.
In a sick way, it's like Stockholm syndrome... a whole race of people who are culturally conditioned to remain loyal to their government, despite the innumerable atrocities that are committed against them in front of their own eyes.
As another side note... it's depressing the "history" they learn in their schools...
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Insightful)
One the truly puzzling things about most Chinese that I meet is there bottomless capacity to defend the snake of a government they have - even the ones that have already immigrated away. I find that the upper-middle class tends to be the worst - the ridiculously rich are too educated to fall for the government's lies, while the poorest suffer too much to believe anything the government says. It's the people who fall down the middle that actually believe the things the government teaches them.
I've known many Chinese who admit their government's deficiencies, and admit that officials are almost always corrupt and self-serving. But for some reason they still declare their allegiance to the government, claiming that as a Chinese by blood they cannot possibly turn away from the Chinese government. This puzzles me greatly, since I've long ago refused to consider myself a supporter of anything BUT a Western democracy - if the government is shooting your kind by the hundreds, is corrupt, etc etc, what kind of loyalty do you owe to them? It seems very ego-driven, and amounts to stubborn refusal to admit that perhaps the West has a better sociopolitical system.
In a sick way, it's like Stockholm syndrome... a whole race of people who are culturally conditioned to remain loyal to their government, despite the innumerable atrocities that are committed against them in front of their own eyes.
As another side note... it's depressing the "history" they learn in their schools...
It's not just a Chinese thing. Everybody will carry some portion of the place they grew up with them. It's part of who they are and they are part of that too. So when you attack someones homeland it's partially an attack on them (or so they perceive). Unless the party that is being attacked hurt them directly they will usually try to defend or justify it.
It's not just countries but any affiliation. The foaming at the mouth republicans and democrats who defend their side against all logic. The Reform, NDP, Bloc, Liberal supporters here in Canada who will rationalize everything about their party. It's not the nature of just Chinese people. It's people as a whole will defend what ever they have some investment in. China does horrible things but the odds of you getting caught up in one of those things are small. Just as Canada and the US have done some pretty bad things but by and large most people been a part of that. Forced sterilization, internment camps, gitmo, Arar, Chinese head tax, residential schools, successful native American genocide, etc.. The difference is after the fact we can talk about it while in china talking about it too publically will often get you in toruble.
Thus Chinese aren't unique in lamenting that they don't really have a democracy but will say it isn't that bad. Which for a large majority of Chinese is true. The current Gov is better then any china has ever had. But the bar isn't as high as the West.
Worst metric *Ever* (Score:3, Insightful)
So by this metric, if the US simply executed its criminals w/o trial, we would be the BEST country on the planet.
Awesome
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Insightful)
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Ownership links to the communist Party (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of the Taiwanese OEMs have practically all of their manufacturing facilities in China, but at least they aren't directly involved in feeding the Part
Racist? (Score:3, Informative)
That's quite an assertion there. When you give money to a Chinese company, that income is taxed by the Chinese government and part of the purchase price goes directly to support the atrocities committed by the Chinese government. This isn't speculation, this is fact.
At what point does anybody's race enter into this?
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You won't find anything directly exported from Taiwan intentionally labeled as "Made in China". No way. Not by a long shot. The "Made in Taiwan" label is a big deal here. There are ads on TV all the time showing examples of Europeans and Americans using low quality flimsy products like umbrellas that fall apart and then focusing in on
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Which, I suppose, was the point of ask.slashdot.org, to ask knowledgeable folks and find an alternative morally compatible laptop to the Thinkpad.
Re:Yes, you're being silly (Score:5, Insightful)
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++ this
Not buying a laptop from a country doesn't hurt the people whose actions you object to, but rather the people who make the laptop (who, by and large, have a way better standard of living working in assembly plants than they did in rural, dirt-poor farms).
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Just imagine how beautiful the world would be if people stopped buying laptops made in China! Their repressive regime would magically vanish! It would inspire the feudal quasi-dictatorships of the rest of Asia, Latin
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I agree with your sentiment, but that is no longer possible for an increasing array of products. China has, deliberately and with malice aforethought, stripped us of much of our key manufacturing capability (much like Japan before it, but only on a vastly grander scale.) China has systematically purchased as much heavy equipment and machine tools from U.S. manufacturers as it can get its hands on
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- If they're silly morals, then yes.
- If "standing up" means doing something that makes you feel good, hurts people who weren't involved, and has no affect on the people who were involved, then yes.
- If you need to announce on a web site how virtuous you are for your so-called morals, then yes.
- If you don't care when people do bad things, but you pretend to care when the news media tells you to care, then yes.
In other words, it seems like you have "stand
the t series (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
As was brought up recently [slashdot.org], you can buy one starting Nov. 11 [xogiving.org] if you live in the U.S.
Re:the t series (Score:5, Funny)
Re:the t series (Score:5, Funny)
Re:the t series (Score:4, Interesting)
Boy, was that a strange meeting with the fire dept...
Re:the t series (Score:5, Funny)
Buddy of mine who works for one of the "Big Three" had the Toughbook on the hood of a car on one of the dynos. Walked away from the laptop and the testing tech gunned the engine. Computer vibrated off the hood and went into the dyno's rollers.
My friend picked up all the pieces, put 'em in a box, went back to his desk, and called the HelpDesk and said: "There's something wrong with my laptop. It won't boot. It booted up fine this morning. I think you need to send someone out to take a look at it."
The look on the HelpDesk technician's face when he looked into the box is said to have been priceless.
Sweet Merciful Hay Soos... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:the t series (Score:4, Funny)
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In the good old days, T600 used to cost more than $3000
Fujitsu (Score:3, Informative)
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For an office environment, the consumer/business laptops are all basically made by the same people at the same facilities out of the same parts these days. Get whichever one ha
Ummmm (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Ummmm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ummmm (Score:5, Informative)
Reason I ask is the same building where Lenovo computers are 'made' (IE Physically Assembled) is also the same building Apple, Dell, HP, Acer, and many others are made. The company is contracted out to make just about everyones laptop.
China has taken over the manufacturing of *so* many products that we use day to day in the United States (and every other country) that it would be downright impossible to function by 'boycotting' anything Made in China.
I started to look into it after the tenth toy of my kids was recalled. My son's wooden trains, my daughters dolls. Fun stuff. Not that my kids chew on them or anything but still, figured I'd send em in.
So I started wondering what I could get as far as a toy without Made in China on it.
in Short, you can't easily. A specialty store sometimes you can find things made in maybe Europe somewhere, but US made things are hard to find and anything non-chinese is pretty hard as well. Forget about shopping at Wal-Mart. That's the retail arm of China now.
In this current global environment it's impossible for a company to be cost competitive because as a consumer we've been trained to throw out everything and focus on price. If this toothpaste is $0.50 cheaper than that toothpaste, I'm gonna buy it. Never mind that one keeps a family in the US employed and has strict laws about what can go in it vs. the other guy putting antifreeze in his mixture in china.
What's a person to do? It can be done, but it's not something that is easy.
Re:Ummmm (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ummmm (Score:5, Interesting)
While I will admit it is tough to not buy products made in China, I have found that with the exception of sunglasses and most electronics, I can buy the products I need which aren't made in China.
Granted, I'm the exception to most Americans in that I don't want or need a ton of stuff so I'm probably not a representative sample, but if one were to take the time and not buy products which are made in China, it can be done.
It's almost comical when I and my parents are out somewhere because both my dad and I look at where products are made. In fact, my dad refers to WalMart as "The China store". I'm sure some day someone in a store will ask what we're doing as we look at the labels on products. When that day occurs, I'll be happy to tell them why we're looking at the labels.
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Is there really someone left in the US who believes that people are unemployed because of production moving overseas? We are at full employment; people aren't starving here, just doing non-manufacturing jobs. It's okay.
Re:Ummmm (Score:4, Funny)
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When IBM was selling them and having Lenovo make them, the story about Burmese police shooting at monks hadn't really broken yet, which is part of the OP's problem with supporting Chinese companies. Their tax yuan go to support this kind of stuff.
Many laptops are actually made
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Sources, or gtfo.
Re:Ummmm (Score:5, Informative)
by that logic... (Score:5, Insightful)
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(I highly suspect not, but I really don't know)
Re:by that logic... (Score:5, Insightful)
(found here [computergripes.com])
So, maybe, maybe not, depending on model. But GP is being rather extreme comparing the horrible things the US is doing and the horrible things china is doing. We're not imprisoning dissidents and journalists yet, and the country we're occupying is at least still free to practice their religion, short of the call to drive the infidels out of the holy land. Contrast with tibet.
I'm not saying we're not bad, but we're no China
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Re:by that logic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Ascribing moral equality between the governments of China and the USA is an insult to the innocent people executed and imprisoned by the vile, corrupt government of China.
Re:by that logic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Insightful?!!!!! (Score:4, Funny)
> close. Where are the listings for the Chinese government's transgressions?
Forgive me for not having an orgasm of patriotism at the revelation that we're not the
single most oppressive regime in the world. Lowering the bar much?
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Re:by that logic... (Score:5, Insightful)
by your logic, why did USA turn their back when simular genocide was happening in Rwanda?
by your logic, why isn't USA invading Burm, sorry Mun-whetever its called?
I can continue for a long long time you know. It would appear USA selectively decided who is bad and who isn't.
Oh and also, remember that photo of Saddam and Rummy shaking hands back in 1980s-something? How come Saddam was good enough to do business with back then but NOT in 2003?
Hello? hoyeru00@yahoo.com eagerly and breathlessly a-waiting your reply.
Surprise me, PLEASE by saying something, anything intelligent instead of coming up with YET another new reason as to why USA illegally attacked a sovereign country without provocation.
fuck karma, I like the truth better
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The Sudan and Burma are loaded with oil. Burma also has massive reserves of hardwoods, precious gems and several other resources.
These are the reasons China is neck deep in both countries and the primary arms suppliers to both governments. India just signed oil exploration agreements with Burma and Russia is negotiating with them for Natural Gas rights.
Re:by that logic... (Score:5, Insightful)
The worst part about the US going into Iraq is the entire world should have gone. Leaders like Saddam who routinely kill their own people en masse should not be allowed. While everyone was busy living in their free little NA or Europe, few seemed to care what was actually happening in Iraq. Until the US went in there.
No, I don't buy the reasons given to us all as to why the US went in. But Saddam was a threat. To the world, to the region, and to his own people. He was a disgrace. The type of leader that the world shouldn't tolerate. So forgive me for not weeping that some shoddy reasoning (and who really knows the true purpose) was used to go in there.
You invaded a fairly stable dictatorship and destroyed almost all of the infrastructure over 15 years, then remove the government and promoted civil war. It was bad under Saddam it's worse under the US. Unlike Japan or Germany there isn't multi billions pouring in to rebuild the infrastructure, we have multi-billion pouring in just to try to maintain order and supply your troops there. There wasn't a good reason to go in and that is why few countries did. Unlike Serbia or Rwanda there was no hope of making the situation better.
You remember whose payroll Saddam was on in the 70's and 80's? Remember who was training and supplying Osama? Saddam is the type of leader The US promotes. It's asinine for you to say much about it. It's a bigger disgrace that your knowledge of history or world politics seems to come directly from fox news. Any an all action by Saddam were indrectly sanctioned by their main backer the US. So if the submitter has a problem with Chinese products because they backed the oppressive myanmar government then he should also boycott US products due to us backing Saddam and various other tyrannical dictators.
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That the US backed Iraq due to *the enemy of my enemy* policy is no secret. And I personally do not like that type of policy, even if the enemy was Iran. Do you have any idea what actually went on in Iran and how disgusting of a government that is even to this day?
However, as much as I don't like it I'm not going to pretend a case can't be made for it.
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Ever heard any Japanese rap? There's an atrocity, and I don't even really listen to rap.
Re:by that logic... (Score:4, Insightful)
Think what you will of America and it's policies. But to even compare it with China is absurd in that regard. American government has, for the majority of the time, been a boon to the world as a whole. Yes, there are conflicts where wonderful leaders like Saddam are overthrown and it makes people unhappy. And no, I'm not justifying Iraq with that sarcastic statement. But I am pointing out that no matter what side of the fence you're on, Iraq was an issue that should have been delt with. It wasn't Atlantis being invaded. American foreign policy is enormous. The most influential country in the world. While it easy to find examples of harm in there, there is more good then harm in the case of American foreign policy. Where as my biggest gripe with China is how the entire world stands by and let's a country like that into open markets so easily considering how disgraceful that country's government is.
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clarification (Score:2)
Re:clarification (Score:5, Informative)
If the original poster is advocating for responsible consumerism, and suggesting that we look up the shareholders of a company and only support the company if we support the shareholders, then I'm all for it. However, it sounded like the original poster was saying: "Lenovo is Chinese. China is bad. Therefore, I don't want to buy a laptop from Lenovo."
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Let's all sing together now: "four dead in O-hi-o" (Score:3, Interesting)
You mean recently [wikipedia.org] I presume?
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Hey, at least it's not ad hominem. Well, actually it is, but at least it's a new term.
check ebay for a used thinkpad (Score:2, Informative)
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http://www.usedpc.com/ [usedpc.com]
It was flawless, and I buy used laptops exclusively.
I was not aware the the new Lenovos were like the 'T' series, more like the old 'R' series, am I wrong?
I call BS (Score:3, Insightful)
If that was your problem, you should never have bought a Thinkpad ever. They were always manufactured by Lenovo which has always been a Chinese comopany, the country which it belongs to has always been the same. Can I call this a sudden attack of morality?
Aside from the obvious hypocrisy mentioned above, I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions from the cult of Mac, but believe me - its hard to find a replacement for Thinkpad. No matter how slick other notebooks may look, in terms of fineness, usability and sheer joy of typing (yes, thats critical factor for me at least), nothing comes near.
Buy it anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
This is cynical of me, but your private little boycott is not going to do the monks any good. If you buy a new Thinkpad now, it'll outlast the problem in Burma. Just buy another one. Lenovo has always produced Thinkpads, it's just that IBM doesn't support them directly anymore. Thinkpads are still the most reliable laptops in the market.
Ian
Maybe a T41, T42 or T43 (Score:4, Insightful)
Way of life (Score:2, Funny)
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Human rights organizations have been complaining [wikipedia.org] about Myranmar for years
Boycot USA products (Score:2, Insightful)
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You may be out of luck (Score:2)
MPC (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.mpccorp.com/ [mpccorp.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPC_Corporation [wikipedia.org]
Why upgrade? (Score:2, Insightful)
I have an X23 that I refurbished. Maxed out the RAM and put in a new hard-drive. I can't see any reason to replace until it dies.
Eventually I will replace the spinning hard-drive with a flash-drive. I'd love to find a way to replace the CCFL backlight with LED were that possible, to make it even more long-lived.
The American fascination with tossing perfectly adequate technology into a landfill is apalling.
Compaq (Score:2)
I currently have a Toshiba Satellite (for some reason) and a pre-Lenovo Thinkpad A20m, and my girlfriend has a Compaq. The Thinkpad and the Compaq
Good luck (Score:5, Insightful)
We used to liberate people, now we liberate markets.
Re:Good luck (Score:4, Interesting)
I am from canada, I have never had a positive non creepy encounter with a Falun Gong practitioner. China is severely over stepping the bounds of what is right or just but I get the same vibe from Falun Gong people that I do from Scientology's. A sort of creepy vibe, sort of like the person in front of me is just a shell of a real human being.
Any reason to not get a Mac Book Pro? (Score:2, Insightful)
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You're aware? (Score:5, Insightful)
You make people more independent by making them wealthy.
Re:You're aware? (Score:4, Informative)
Original Device Manufacturers (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm also a fan of the T series (Score:5, Insightful)
I carried my little white 2001 iBook in a gym bag back and forth to the office for 4 years, before retiring it for it's final year to home only as a couch computer. It finally gave up the ghost after 5.5 years, and two drops to the linoleum covered floor in my living room -- once from 2 feet, once from three and a half. I wish Apple still used the bullet proof glass for iBook cases. That iBook sure took a beatin' before it belly-uped .
Get a Mac? No nipple! (Score:2)
I can't stand the Trackpad.
I would answer... (Score:2)
You could try... (Score:3, Funny)
Desktops are made in Hungary (Score:3, Informative)
That's a tough one. (Score:5, Informative)
Even Dell's Lattitude business line still feels like a toy. Dell really improved their notebooks over the last iteration, and they're still crap. HP's business line (not the consumer junk with the blinky blue lights and 17" monitors) is the only one IMO that comes close to IBM/Lenovo's case design and construction.
If you really want rugged or semi-rugged, you probably need to look at the Panasonic Toughbooks. They're solid, but they're 20% heavier than they should be and you compromise on case design for durability. (Side note, if you buy the true rugged Toughbook, it's assembled in the US (probably for military contract requirements.) You pay accordingly too...list on some of the rugged models is in the $2000-$3000 range.
Your other choice might be a MacBook Pro, but those aluminum cases don't look like they can take a beating the way the old ThinkPads can.
(By the way, everything's made in China now. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be paying the cheap prices you get for hardware now.)
Singapore, not China (Score:3, Informative)
I love my T60, too, by the way. Runs great with Ubuntu as well.
Possibly Asus? (Score:5, Informative)
Why just buy from not-China when you can buy from their enemies?
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Isn't that what matters here?
A Macbook pro? (Score:2)
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The "fully-rugged" toughbook would do better in rain or low temperature, but would be heavier, more expensive, and slower.