DTV Is Coming and I'm Not Ready

(arg!)Styopa writes "As an early adopter, I have an HDTV-ready set without an integrated tuner. Analog television ends next February. My suspicion is that the $40 set-top box at Walmart has the minimum functionality to get by — i.e. simply a D-to-A converter and not an HDTV receiver. Three years ago I bought a UHF super-antenna (I'm about 40 mi. from the towers: borderline fringe reception) and searched for an HDTV converter to pull down HDTV OTA broadcasts. These were extremely hard to find — none at Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City, or Ultimate Electronics (all the local bigboxen). I ended up buying a SIRT150 from eBay, which never found a signal, despite confirmed reception (on the set's normal tuner) of both VHF and UHF channels. So — any advice on what to look for in a set-top box? Is it going to cost me an arm and a leg, or is it not too far from the $40 Walmart special? Can I use Uncle Sam's $40 coupon towards it? I'd like very much to be able to find a physical store where I could go see the signal, before I decide if HD is worth the up-charge (if any) over simple DTV."

Put your money where your mouth is

You're just being cheap, which is what got you into this situation in the first place. You want to use the stupid coupon, which is your first mistake, as those aren't for HD, only for Digital TV, which are two separate things. You can buy a DVD recorder many of which come with ATSC tuners built in and HDMI output. You can't use the coupon for that, but, you know what, that's not the point of the coupon.

Re:Put your money where your mouth is

Well, I don't have an HDTV but three analog TVs. I'm unemployed and have been for awhile now. I also resent the heck out of having to pay for television. So, I went to Circuit City and bought a digital to analog converter and also a 4-port S-video switcher box along with a S-Video cable. Total cost: $110.00. If I had waited 2 more weeks, I could have used one of those two coupons from the U.S. Government, but I jumped the gun. Oh well. I'll use them for the other two TVs in my home. I installed it with our main TV and behold! The picture quality is perfect for an analog TV! Upon occasion it does pixelate when the signal drops, but it's quite livable. I immediately canceled my basic cable TV service, as I was only paying for a pretty picture and I get a better picture now than I did with basic cable. Further, I'm picking up TV signals (digital TV signals) from Belton, TX (I live in Round Rock, TX, about 1 hour away by car). I'm even picking up Pentagon TV from Fort Hood and I have four PBS stations, which I tend to watch a lot. I can also take my wireless laptop and connect the S-Video port to my S-Video Switcher Box and watch Television shows over the internet from CBS, ABC, NBC and Discovery/TLC/Animal Planet. I have no intention of buying cable or satellite TV in the near or distant future, not when I've got a pretty picture and everything is free. So it's not AS pretty as HDTV, so what? It's still very good and free, which is important to me. Hope that helps. Best Regards, Kalecomm

Re:I don't care

Yeah, we'll put your suggestion up there with "Bike to work" and "be a good person".

Re:Put your money where your mouth is

Cheap? What about those of us who really don't care about digital TV?

I guess those people shouldn't read a question submitted by someone who DOES care about digital TV, and think it applies to them.

( either by direct purchase of this 'converter', or my tax dollars going to fund them for others ).

Ignorance is fun, isn't it? Your "tax dollars" aren't going to fund the coupon program. the money is coming from the sale of the analog TV spectrum.

This whole thing is just another way to get DRM into your home

Huh? Now I know you're cracked. The converters for the coupon program all have analog out on them (and in fact are REQUIRED to ONLY have analog out).

It might actually make sense to KNOW something about the thing you're trying to make a conspiracy theory about. That way you can avoid the theories that don't even fit with the established facts.

Re:Put your money where your mouth is

LOL.

I love it. Its a classic.

"We were forced to confiscate your back yard to buld a 6-lane private toll-road, but do not fret! The fire fighters, police men and ambulances will pay no fee on it! Thank you for your public service! Aren't you feeling all warm and tingly inside? Also Remember 9-11! 9-11!"

You Sir, should have become a politiican! You even managed to get 9-11 into it! I can just hear your speech at the launch of the Mega Corporate National Fabricated Happy News Network, DTV edition: "If you do not buy a DTV set now and do not subscribe to at least 100 DRM-covered vapid channels then Osama Bin Laden wins!"

Meanwhile, in this Universe, 99% or so of the freed bandwith will be auctioned (for gazillions of dollars - which will in the case of USA promptly head to Haliburton via Iraq) to private corporations of one shape or another.

Its a lovely deal: the public gets shafted by the corporates from all directions repeteadly on the same deal! Its like a Kung Fu mastery of rank avarice.

And then of course are you, actually trying to peddle the smiley-face corporate PR line on Slashdot, like you were serious!

Sure, the old technologies must eventually be replaced by newer, more efficient ones (which DTV debatably, supposedly is - in some cases, for some users). But this has nothing to do with technological progress and everything to do with shameless greed!

I retruned my ez47 and havent bought a replacement

The difference between the 27 and 47 is the attached VCR. I got the 47 for its ASTC tuner, its supposed ability to record, as well as ability to play and convert vhs. While its tuner worked ok if you leave it on a channel, it tends to have major issues if you change channels a bunch, specially if you do so quickly: it tends to get mixed up which channel its on and display a different channel number, it starts jumping channels after you stop pressing the button, it loses the programing guide info or displays it from a different channel, and sometimes will completely lock up with U99 displayed on its LED panel. It tends to NOT record shows when programmed to, locks up randomly, and displays annoying Chapter labels in the middle of DVD playback. It also has Auto-play enabled (cant turn it off in the settings), so if theres a disc in it when you turn it on, it starts to play it... which wouldnt be so bad, except it also wont let you stop a playing disc until it gets through the mandatory FBI and copyright warning screens. Most of this still happened AFTER getting a firmware update CD from Panasonic their support claimed would fix the issues. When I told them it didnt, they said it must be hardware related, so mail it back to them. I took it back to the store for a refund instead, because from reading reviews online, it seems to be a flaw of the products design, not a particular manufacturing defect, ALOT of people had the same problems.

Because of that purchase (they arent that cheap either), I have been very wary of other DVD recorder + ATSC tuner combos, and just plain ATSC Tuners as well. I have read too many reviews on multiple different ones claiming similar issues: slow channel changes, random lockups, poor UI design, failure to just do what its supposed to do, lack or errors in the program guide, etc. I wish BestBuy or someone would actually set these up for people to try to use them before taking home such a piece of crap. I actually was looking at digital tuners at Best Buy today and saw 3 of the Ez47 on the open item discount rack, and more surprisingly, at $300, more than I paid retail, and more than the brand new unopened EZ48 (same as 47 but has USB as well).

To get back on topic, the combo devices seem to all be crap. Most of the DVD recorders themselves do not come with tuners at all, which makes them almost useless without some external tuner, since almost every HDTV does not have a video-out jack (ie: how do you record the TV channel if you cant output it??). I did see a samsung HDTV tuner box, but it was $179 and probably not eligible for the coupon since it did HD signals as well. The other one was the cheapo $59 ($40 coupon eligible) converter box, which just has cable-in cable-out and A/V RCA jacks for stereo audio out and rf video out.

tm

Re:Parent may be harsh, but it's not a troll

Yes, you're confused. My display system supported 1080p via the component inputs. There's nothing magical about 1080p such that it can't be sent over component, technically speaking. It isn't even that big a deal, it's quite similar in terms of bandwidth to what middle of the road computer displays have been doing for years.

However, after my purchase, collusion in the industry led to a state of affairs where 1080p was not going to be transmitted from component outputs, ever — only via HDMI. Not because it wasn't feasible, it certainly is, but because it couldn't be easily copy-protected. Even my current Sony (STR-DA5300ES) won't convert the 1080p HDMI signal to component for the second set of outputs; heck, it won't even activate the audio tape-outs if the signal is HDMI. Disgusting, really. But that's another rant.

So in the end, there were no program sources. My receiver (a really nice Denon) and my display (a projector whose details I no longer recall) were both perfectly capable of 1080p; but you can't get a 1080p *source* except via an HDMI jack at this point, so the display was limited to what it *could* get over component, which is either 1080i (ugh -- interlace is what I wanted to get away from) or 720p. 720p's not bad... until you've seen 1080p.

BTW, 1080p/24 requires less bandwidth than 1080i/30o/30e, which is what most of the satellite providers source (albeit at shoddy bitrates... but presuming similar compression, 1080p/24 is less greedy by about 20%. And that'd cover most movies made to date.) Not that this has anything to do with my subject matter, but you did mention bandwidth when talking broadcast issues.

Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more HD

Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more HD then you can over the air.

Re:Get cable or satellite tv and you will get more

Comcast's carriage agreements (and apparently the FCC as well) prohibit them from recompressing any OTA-originated signals. What you'd be seeing on Comcast is exactly the same thing you'd be seeing OTA (interference notwithstanding). Hook up a device that can read the bitrate of the signal, you'll find that it's exactly the same on Comcast as it is OTA. The rest of their HD programming(non-OTA) is indeed rather compressed depending on the time and channel, but all the OTA stuff is exactly the same.

If you're seeing a difference, either your local Comcast office is not following their own agreements, or you're getting some interference on the frequencies used. IIRC the AVSforum guy who was doing quality testing last month even confirmed this.

What you need...

... Is called an ATSC tuner. The cheap converters are only going to output NTSC. You need one that has progressive component outputs, and is advertised to support at least the resolution of your TV (720p, 1080i, 1080p, in order of increasing bandwidth). If the box doesn't specify that it does one of these, you're getting 480i, which is good old standard def TV.

The difference is noticeable, but it's largely individual taste whether it's really worth it. Some people like to see fine details in the wide shots in football, and they'll like it more than people who are only interested in the plot of a drama. AV gear forums will be a better place if you're interested in the details. If you just want to see them in action, wander into anywhere that sells TVs, and they'll have a whole bunch of HD sets next to SD sets, and you can see if it matters to you.

If you've had an HD set this long but haven't bothered to pick up an ATSC tuner before now, why do you suddenly care? It seems odd that you plopped down that much cash for a TV but then never bothered to buy the extra accessory to actually use it.

Re:What you need...

more importantly - grab that old PC you were going to throw away because Vista requires a Cray 9.0, throw a couple of ATSC tuners in it, drop a recent linux on it and load up MythTV ... bingo you have an HD PVR

Re:What you need...

They're BOTH ATSC tuners. The one this guy wants will output component video, the cheap ones everyone's gonna need next year will output composite or NTSC RF.

Where would the "cheap coverters" get the signal from if they DIDN'T have ATSC tuners?

Wait for the Phantom set-top box

It's awesome! It doesn't require any sort of external antenna. It has a series of carbon nanotubes that resonate at the Tesla frequency to pull in all HDTV signals. It has a built in 2TB Seagate disk, dual quad-core Intel processors, and a laser keyboard. It runs a special version of Apple OS X developed by the NSA for the Church of Scientology. It even streams non-DRM content (in 4096x1920 HDTV gen-3 format) over the air - all for $99. Released date is mid to late summer. If I were you, I'd wait just a few more months. They're even accepting down payments to reserve your Phantom HDTV console at this time.

Samsung

Samsung makes an HD-capable box, the DTB-H260F or something like that. It's something like $180 but it has HD outputs that your TV will need (component, most likely) and the tuner in it is supposed to be MUCH better than the SIR-T150. I remember that tuner, it wasn't very good as far as reception goes.

http://www.tvfool.com/ [tvfool.com]

That site will help you out with your signal levels. It depends on where you are as to what kind of antenna you need. While an outdoor antenna is always better, the Zenith Silver Sensor (or whatever they're calling it these days) is one of the best indoor antennas, and I would definitely recommend you look into that one.

http://www.rabbitears.info/ [rabbitears.info]

That's my site. It can help you figure out what programming is available.

Wow, you didn't get answers, did you?

I'm viewing at a threshold of 4, and it's pretty much just people telling the OP how stupid he is. It doesn't seem helpful. So, maybe this will be of assistance.

The COBY DTV 140 [alvio.com] is pretty bad-ass for people who are not on the HDTV bandwagon. It's ATSC. It will even downconvert HDTV signals to a standard old TV, if you're REALLY falling behind. It has a few outputs (DVI/Monitor, Component Video, S-Video, Composite Video). It used to be that the menus for the system would only display on a HDTV, so if you had an old SDTV, you'd have to borrow an HDTV to set it up. But newer versions have menus that work just great on SDTV, which I have, and I can confirm it works. I also have an Optoma HD70, which is a projector that can do HDTV if you can feed it a signal. The COBY works great with that too. My nearest signal comes from 39 miles away, and most are more like 45 miles away. It's able to catch a lot of those weak signals and get really good pictures. But not all.

Also, since the COBY seems to be nearing the end of its run, there is a newer item that seems to get OK reviews, the Samsung DTBH260F [amazon.com]. It's about twice as much as the COBY and it cannot downsample to SDTV, from what I have read. However, it will upsample SDTV into 720, which I don't think my COBY does (it just delivers it at 480). It also can pull in signals from about 50 miles away, which is pretty great. The Samsung is more for people who got halfway -- like the OP -- and bought a HDTV that doesn't have a tuner. It supposedly has excellent capability for assembling a great image from over-the-air signals -- better than the compressed images you get from cable. I wouldn't know. I don't own it. I just know it has good reviews. Good luck.

Also, for those of you admonishing the OP to just get cable or satellite, I would point out that I paid a one-time $80 fee to buy my product, and I've had crystal-clear free HDTV for a year now. How much have you paid for your cable or dish network over the last year? I'm pretty sure it was more than $80. So I don't think the OP is that stupid. He's aware that there are free signals out there, and he's trying to get them. That seems pretty smart, IMHO.

Re:Do what millions of others will do:

Like hanging out on Slashdot all day?

Re:Do what millions of others will do:

Even though I wholeheartedly agree with you, I'm afraid he didn't ask slashdot to hear about your opinion on tv in general...

Do what I did instead.

Get rid of cable or satellite and just rely on Netflix.

Almost any TV show that's any good will be there after the season is over, and pretty much any movie ever released on DVD will be ready to ship out to you on short order.

While there's a shipping delay involved, I think it's more than made up for by the far greater selection and *lack of ads*. And it's a lot cheaper.

Really, doing this completely changed the way I consume video-based culture -- instead of having the TV sitting there to just pick up when I couldn't decide what to do, inevitably watching crap and making do with what was on, I now make a conscious decision about everything I watch and spend my entertainment time only watching what I really want to see.

Good heavens, Netflix should be paying me for this. I'm serious, though, it makes a big difference.

Re:Do what I did instead.

When I was living in the US, this is exactly what I was doing. I was a grad student, and my $20/mo Netflix account got me access to all the major networks, plus the paid cable channels (HBO, etc.), all without ads, all with perfect reception. I also had movies--everything from big blockbusters to tiny art-house flicks.

Cheaper than any other TV option, and you get all the movies you can eat.

It's one of the things I really miss here in Japan. Instead, I BitTorrent TV, which is free, but not as convenient, doesn't look as good, and provides no revenue to the people who make things I want to watch (mod me down, if you will, for wanting to pay people for creating things--even if it means relying on a corrupt and totally unfair system).

Damn I miss Netflix.

Re:Do what millions of others will do:

I have never understood why people find this drivel insightful. Yes, there is a lot of crappy TV out there. There is also a lot of extremely excellent TV as well that you would be cutting yourself off from. If this was suggested this for any other medium, it would be laughed out of the room. If I told people to stop reading books because they are horrible drivel that rot your brain, because things like romance novels are complete crap, no one would think I was insightful. People would, rightfully, tell me to not read the crap and instead read the good stuff. The same thing applies to movies, magazines, music, games, and damn near everything else. The majority of it is complete crap, but we look past the crap to find the stuff that is good. Why are people so proud of cutting themselves of from an entire medium? And why do so many people applaud them for doing it?

Re:CRT HDTV is Great

how many people does it take to move it? Do you still have friends willing to help you move?

Those are the problems with CRT HDTVs.

Re:After paying for an early HDTV...

You (and the folks that modded you up) are the ones that are not that smart... he states in his post that he connects his antenna directly to the set, that's how he knows that his receiver is not doing a good job of getting a signal off the antenna. His HDTV does not have an ATSC tuner. The antenna is irrelevant; a decent ATSC tuner costs $160+.

Re:After paying for an early HDTV...

you're worried about spending more than $40 for an antenna?

And he should be. Those "digital antennas" are scams.* The digital signals are on a subset of the analog band. That was the whole point of going digital: to free up some of that bandwidth for other purposes (like generating revenue for the government in a big auction!)

*ok, since it's a subset of the bandwidth, you might be able to squeeze out a tiny bit more gain, or build the antenna more cheaply. (less bandwidth means thinner diameter wires, don't cha know) But if you already have a working antenna, there is absolutely no reason to go out and buy another one.

Re:After paying for an early HDTV...

I actually don't even have an hdtv, but someone from work posted me a link to an extremely inexpensive antennae that is sorta butt-ugly, but apparantly works GREAT... at least compared to the el-cheapo crud that is sold in most places. SO-- I'll pass it along to anyone interested. It may help out the OP if his big problem was being able to receive ANY signals...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/762088/coat_hanger_hdtv_antenna_better_than_store_bought_amazing/ [metacafe.com]

Re:After paying for an early HDTV...

Someone mod this guy up. To add to that, here's the antenna I use:

http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

It's similar to the design in the video, but puts the elements on 7" centers, and uses the 3.5 inch width of the 2x4 mast it's built on to correctly position the reflector relative to them. To this I added a pair of VHF-length elements, fastened to the point where the balun is attached, and cut them to 28" each (measured from the middle of the mounting screw). I suppose technically these elements should be mounted on 24.5" standoffs, but they work fine.

Like the other one, mine isn't pretty, but it only cost me about $4 for the supplies, since I had some scrap lumber and a balun handy already. Even analog signals show a considerable improvement.

It might also be worth looking into the Hoverman design. By the look of it, these two 2x4-and-coat-hanger projects are variants of that design. This site has all the gory details, and focuses on a so-called "Gray-Hoverman" variation:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ [digitalhome.ca]