What Makes a Programming Language Successful?

danielstoner writes "The article '13 reasons why Ruby, Python and the gang will push Java to die... of old age' makes an interesting analysis of the programming languages battling for a place in programmers' minds. What really makes a language popular? What really makes a language 'good'? What is success for a programming language? Can we say COBOL is a successful language? What about Ruby, Python, etc?"

Beards

[AioKits (1235070)]

I thought it was the beards on the creator(s) of the language that determines the success?

I don't really get the Java hate around here

[JohnnyBGod (1088549)]

Java's well organized, has a great standard library and is (mostly) consistent with itself. Its only problems, as far as I can see, was that it was initially slow and that it marketed itself as a web language, when there were better choices for that.

Disclaimer: I've only coded in Java since 1.5.

Re:I don't really get the Java hate around here

[CastrTroy (595695)]

PHP is badly organized, has a long history of importing third party components for what should be included in the base, and is completely inconsistent with itself in many ways. Hasn't caused any problems in popularity for them. I would say by virtue of PHP and all the other popular languagues, that it should be easy to get started (free compilers and runtimes), that it should run on multiple platforms, and that it should be easy to install. Nothing gets you more popularity than millions of newbies trying your tool and being able to get it working that they continue to use it even when they get good, simply because it is what they are used to.

Java's not going to die

[vivin (671928)]

I just started at a new job at the beginning of this year after quitting from my last job where I barely got to do any programming. The place where I work now is a Java shop. I was getting back to Java programming after a hiatus of a few years. For the last few years I mostly doing Perl with a smattering of C (PHP and Javascript on occasion). My experience with Java was mainly from college and a few odd projects I did here and there. The language had changed quite a bit over the last few years and to be honest, I surprised myself by being happy to get back to it (I had some sort of vague dislike for it for a period of time).

The company sponsored a trip to JavaOne at San Francisco earlier this month, for the Dev Team. I also got to go. This was my first time at JavaOne. It was amazing, exciting, and I learnt a LOT of new stuff. The main thing I got from there was that Java, far from being a programming language, is also a platform. There are a lot of new things being built on TOP of Java. For example, Groovy [codehaus.org], and JavaFX [javafx.com]. Java now has excellent support and frameworks to roll your OWN domain-specific languages.

Python and Ruby are not going to push Java out of the way. For example, you have mergers of Java with these languages (Jython and JRuby). Essentially you have Python and Ruby using Java resources and libraries. I think instead of "dying", Java is just going to evolve into a stable platform that lets you build stuff on top of it.

Re:I don't really get the Java hate around here

[Jack9 (11421)]

the fact that it can happen at all is unacceptable.

Same with any interpreted language. PHP, Python, same problem if you are using deprecated accessors. Heck, even the MySQL connector worked differently in PHP3

Are you really suggesting that every time there's a new version they change the name of the language? What about changing the name of every program you write just because you altered the API? Why would you say it's unacceptable?

Re:I don't really get the Java hate around here

[Em Ellel (523581)]

So now I'm always wary about using Java applications, since they can easily get tied to a specific JRE and if that JRE has security flaws, you're SOL.

Same can be said of ANY language that evolves. I am currently battling an app parts of which require Python 2.3, parts 2.4 and parts 2.5.

The bottom line is that no language will ever make the programmer smart. If the programmer is dumb enough to use some esoteric/ undocumented/ unsupported part of the JVM (Sun has a number of those, but no, it is NOT easy to get stuck on a specific JVM rev unknowingly) - thats the programmer's fault. If the app is supported (or at least open sourced) fixing this sort of a dependency on a particular version should be quick and easy. If you do not have code and the app is not supported, then you really shouldn't be running it in the first place! Sounds like the app was abandoned long before you realized it.

-Em

Re:I don't really get the Java hate around here

[Chabil Ha' (875116)]

ClassCastException and NPE are the easiest to avoid. With adequate unit testing, those are the easiest problems to find.

While Generics add a lot of protection by making your List strongly typed, using instanceof checks will protect your code when using a List.

Re:I don't really get the Java hate around here

[Rary (566291)]

... Which suggests that you haven't coded for very long.

Actually, it suggests that he hasn't coded Java for very long.

Regardless, if you're building a web application, you're probably not going to build it in Bash. The right tool for the job, and all that.

It's silly to say "Language A is better than Language B". What makes more sense is "Language A is better than Language B at task X."

Java is the right tool for many jobs. It'll die shortly after C dies (in other words, not anytime soon).

grmbl.

[thhamm (764787)]

What Makes a Programming Language Successful?

those who don't know how to use it.

Easy.

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

Power: What can it do?
Performance: How fast can it do it?
Ease of Development: How fast can quality code be turned out by regular programmers?

Most modern languages fail on a couple of these. C is first class in Power and Performance, but it's not Easy. Ruby is okay in Power, and its very Easy, but it's slow. Java is Powerful, but doesn't match C for Performance, and it's not the quickest for development.

I'm sure many fanboys will disagree with my analysis. They'll say "Regular programmers don't matter (C)" or "It's NOT SLOW (Ruby)" or "Development is too quick! (Java)".

Really though, that's what it comes down to. The problem is, that there are unfortunate tradeoffs that have to be made. Most languages have a strength, but they all make sacrifices to be strong.

Aging Engineers

[avandesande (143899)]

I think many people fail to recognize that the average age of software engineers has gotten higher and that many have realized that most of the pitfalls in software development have little to do with the language chosen. I would rather concentrate on good engineering practices and refining familiar modules I have developed than learn a new language.

Re:Aging Engineers

[sheldon (2322)]

My father, just before he retired, got into a big argument with the kids. They had an embedded system, 32K onboard memory, everything was written in straight C.

The kids wanted to do OOP. My father felt there wasn't enough memory to do this effectively and it was foolish.

The reality was, that the kids just wanted to pretend they were doing OOP. They still used straight C, they just created structs and organized functions in files as if they were classes. It was actually rather clever and made it easier to maintain.

It's hard as you get older, I think, you hear about some new idea as the silver bullet and your immediate reaction is negative because you've heard this so many times before. But you have to have an open mind, and watch and see what is happening.

Otherwise you'll end up as a COBOL developer.

Re:Aging Engineers

[ardor (673957)]

I mean 1,000 lines of C++ and C# compared... I'd expect to see fewer errors in the C# and less severe errors when I find them.

Depends on your skills. C# is a safer environment, but C++ has immensely more expressive power. With modern and well-coded C++, these 1,000 lines may equal to 10-20,000 lines of C#/Java. Unfortunately, the ugly C++ syntax and its C cruft make unlocking the true advantages of C++ a black art.

A trivial example is the STL. Java/C# containers don't come even close to the STL's power. Go further and look at Boost.MPL/Fusion/Proto, and you'll see stuff you simply cannot do with Java/C#.

Well. If it were by me, Lisp would be king. But its not a perfect world :)

From whose point of view?

[mr_mischief (456295)]

Not to sound too much like Obi Wan, but many of the truths we cling to depend a great deal on our own point of view and all that.

If I was working for O'Reilly, Manning, APress, Wiley, et al I'd say a successful programming language was one which sold lots of books.

If I was a hiring manager for a large software company, I'd look closely at what language allowed the most cheap new grads to work together an produce something resembling quality code.

If I was teaching intro to computer science, I'd worry about what was preparing my students for the rest of their education.

If I was teaching a certificate-level course to people looking to get into the job market quickly, I'd look for the language with the highest placement rate.

If I was a person of little clue, I'd go largely by the hype. Some would go with the mainstream hype, and some go with the counter cultural "that's the big hype, but our language is better" underdog hype.

As a programmer, I prefer the language that helps me turn customer requirements into working programs that fastest with the least fuss on my part, and allows decent maintenance and customization later.

As the owner of a small boutique programming shop, I want my expressive, powerful language to give me an advantage over others using less expressive languages. I'd like to find others who can use it, but a few is alright as I don't need a huge team to work on programs.

Ruby and Python are ex-parrots, not Java

[ajv (4061)]

I review code for security flaws for a living. I am a pioneer in this field and have literally written the book on it (the OWASP Guide and the OWASP Top 10 2007). I've been doing secure code reviews for the last 10 years.

I've reviewed 400-500 applications (it's unclear to the total number, but I usually do a review every other week, some shorter, some longer).

I've never reviewed a Ruby application or been asked to review code written in that language. I have been asked to review a Haskell application.

I have reviewed:

* 85-90% Java, usually with shell and ant scripts and occasionally some Perl. Some *years*, this is the only language I am asked to review.
* 5-10% .NET. I haven't reviewed a .NET application this year.
* 5% COBOL. Primarily as a side line - there's a lot of old code to review, but most folks never do.

I've reviewed three PHP applications professionally, all in the last year, even though this is my preferred language to write stuff.

Java is overwhelmingly used in large commercial settings for high value applications, with .NET a very distant second.

I don't get to review that many COBOL or other mainframe apps. I've been doing ground breaking research in this area as there's no advice today. There is a false belief that this code is somehow "safe" as it resides on the mainframe. Nothing could be more wrong.

Ruby and Python, although interesting langauges, has zero commercial penetration, even for worthless brochureware or community apps.

What they do have is an extremely loud fan base. These languages will not kill COBOL or Java any time in the next forty years or so as the fan base is fickle and will move on to the next big thing when it comes along.

Re:Ruby and Python are ex-parrots, not Java

[Jaeph (710098)]

You didn't review any C either, yet we all know that the language is out there and being used. Same with perl.

I think your field of work is too narrow to be completely explanatory.

Btw, I do agree with your general point - I don't see python or ruby bumping aside java. But your personal experience, extensive as it appears, is not enough to derive that conclusion

-Jeff

P.S. I really wish java would go. I hate the upper/lower case thing in all the names.

Perhaps a better measurement than /. popularity

[klubar (591384)]

Don't count out the "dead" languages... IBM estimates that more than 30 billion transactions occur within Cobol programs every day. By contrast, Google averages about 150 million searches each day, or about .5% of Cobol's daily workload.

Rather than a "gee I need a cool website for my mom" choice, perhaps the number of transactions or dollar value would be a better count.

Cobol would probably win, followed by java and the Microsoft languages (C++, C#).

Irony

[w3woody (44457)]

Ironically the biggest problem I've had with Java is that, because it is relatively easy for developers to write code using an IDE such as Eclipse or NetBeans in the core language itself, but there are tons of various classes even within the core JRE, many programmers I know who write Java have created a sort of "ecosystem" of artificial complexity.

For example, I worked on one project which was a client/server system which handled maybe 10 transactions per second, with each transaction translating into maybe one or two table updates. The application could have been put together using something simple, like Tomcat and MySQL on the back-end, and something easy to use like an XML/RPC link to the client side. (There were only something like 10 remote procedure calls being made, and this was an internal application, which means the total audience was perhaps 100 people.)

But rather than keep the whole thing simple, we had a whole bunch of "Architecture Astronaut" wannabes who started tossing in third party frameworks like there was no yesterday, without carefully thinking if the framework was needed, and if so, how best to integrate the framework. Before we knew it, the server was broken into 8 separate EJBs, Hibernate and Spring were called in to handle the server side coding framework, and the entire build process was so complicated it no longer could be run or debugged within an IDE--apparently someone on the project didn't understand ant and used makefiles for part of the build. And to top it off, because so many different frameworks were thrown in for no good reason I can determine (there were something like 40 third-party jar files in the build directory), there were all sorts of runtime problems as each jar file was not designed or tested on the full range of Java 1.4 - 6.0 environments.

Now if this was my first exposure to Java, I'd say that while the core language itself wasn't bad, the entire Java ecosystem sucked hard core. But no; it was the developers: rather than keep it simple, they used the 'refactor' button in NetBeans about 100 times too many, until what should have been a one person-three month job turned into half a million lines of crap, that, to their credit, limped along okay.

Re:Back to Basic

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

I think you've got Python confused with Perl. Python was first released in 1991, and one of its core tenets is a formatting structure that makes it a lot more difficult to write illegible code. So I'm just going to assume you were talking about Perl, and I'm going to assume that you're not as ill-informed as it appears.

Perl is what it is: A quick and dirty language for generating practical programs. It's ugly, it's hard to maintain, and it makes a lot of peoples lives a lot easier by making operations that are extremely complicated in other languages quite trivial to code. Comparing it to C is not an apples to apples comparison. Comparing it to BASIC is like comparing a Pineapple to a Raisin.

Re:Back to Basic

[D Ninja (825055)]

the possibility to write unreadable code

Hate to break it to you, but that's a possibility in any language.

Re:Off the top of my head?

[OrangeTide (124937)]

I'm mainly a C hacker, but I don't get why people would prefer Python over Java. Dynamic typing where you can create new identifiers implicitly is pretty scary to me. I'm not even sure what Python offers over the dozens of other languages that preceded it.

Re:Off the top of my head?

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

Well, it's got a better object model than Java, and it's a lot faster to code with. Java just isn't appropriate in every situation.

Python also plays well with C [python.org], so it's often used in concert with C for interfaces, etc.

Re:Off the top of my head?

[Tim99 (984437)]

Er, the ability to do quickly knock off a project that can do heavy lifting with wrapped C Code - Without needing to incorporate a gazillion bytes of bloat?

Re:Off the top of my head?

[amccaf1 (813772)]

I'm mainly a C hacker, but I don't get why people would prefer Python over Java.

I'm having similar questions, only wondering why people would prefer Ruby over Java. I've had to start learning Ruby for a variety of reasons so I've been reading Ruby tutorials off and on for a week or so.

I don't think that Ruby is bad, not by a long shot. It's seems fairly decent and it doesn't seem to be lacking anything necessary. I'm just curious as to why someone would pick Ruby over some other language. I'm not quite understanding what the "killer app" of Ruby is. I'm not sure why this language had to be created.

My understanding is that the main reason for choosing Ruby is to use it with Rails (which I have not looked at yet). And yet it's rare for me to read a good word about Ruby on Rails.

Does anyone else get the impression that a lot of these newer languages are simply solutions that are looking for problems?

Re:Off the top of my head?

[agrounds (227704)]

Portability and development speed are what drive it for me. Most of what I code is for log parsing, network device configuration, and reporting. To that end, I have never seen a need to look too far beyond Perl. It does everything I need with very minimal effort and development time, even for reasonably complex projects. Still, when Perl code becomes too large to work with effectively even after breaking down individual tasks, I change languages.

I think the point is "which tool fits the current need best." Far too many people seem to want to use a hammer when a screwdriver would work better out of potentially misguided allegiances. Languages are no different than any other tool.

I suspect TFA is more 'overrated' than 'insightful' since it makes some gross generalizations, cites search results as indicators of popularity, and completely neglects some of the nicer features of the popular scripting languages.