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Why Should Dealers Require OS Licenses? 31

Posted by Cliff from the it's-none-of-their-business dept.
gandalf_grey asks: "I just got off the phone with my local Dell Rep. She's just informed me that I cannot order my PC's without an OS pre-installed, unless I have a license for my OS. This is despite the "NO OS" option on their website. I was seriously considering sending them the GPL. I ended up just requesting Linux to save myself a minor spaz, but what business is it of Dell if I own my OS or not? Any comments on similar experiences in dealing with other bulk dealers, and OS/license requirements?" Strikes me as if I buy a machien from Dell with a "No OS" license, then I should be able to put whatever I want on it. What if someone is developing an OS and they haven't written a license yet?
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Why Should Dealers Require OS Licenses? More

Why Should Dealers Require OS Licenses?

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  • You have a bootable testing CD or floppy. You boot from this, and it performs tests of the hardware which can include more stringent disk/disk controller and memory tests than would be possible when running under most 'end-user' OSs.
  • They already don't service non-dell-installed os/software/hardware :)

  • NO OS (Score:2)

    by Type-R ( 8130 )
    Well, then these companies aren't the ones to buy from if they won't give you what you want. :) (Sure it's an idea world I live in... but....)
  • The reason they require a license for your OS (and the GPL would do fine if all you're installing is Linux) is that they do not choose to encourage or facilitate OS piracy. That Dell wants to play ethically is a good thing.

    But, what's really funny is knowing the history of Michael Dell who started selling "grey market" PC compatibles from his UT Austin dorm room. (I worked for an Austin-area computer retailer in the 1980's.) Anyone familiar with the Dell story would enjoy the irony of Dell's up-to-date policy.

    When you're rich, it doesn't hurt to play by the rules. When you poor and play by the rules: that's character.

  • I can see how such a policy would cut piracy, and I'm sure Dell's vendors like that.. I assume you are wishing to install Linux on the machine, but if you could prove that you had a license for say, MS Windows 95, would they back off on the charge and give you a blank HD??
  • Normally, I'd agree, but the 'general population' isn't ordering a machine without OS in the first place. It's either a corporate type, who (hopefully) should know what they are doing, a hobbyist (who should have to agree that Dell is making no claims that this hardware will work with his/her software, and will accept no returns based on that) or a l33+ haxor who is going to install a stolen copy of M$ whatever. So who gives a rat's ass about the copy of your license.

    Personally, I think the original poster should have sent that one Apple 'open source' license. Or perhaps gotten the license from a copy of QNX:)

  • (1)Does rep know WTF s/he's talking about? ... (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25, 2000 @04:27PM (#1047334)
    ... sometimes sales droids don't really represent upper management's considered company policy (once they have considered ;-)

    (2) Does s/he have an interest in (commission, sales credits, whatever) your choice?

    (3) Where does any seller's rights to dictate pre- and post-conditions of use end? Really!!

    What next?

    "If you order our computer with an over-20GB disk, you must must first send us a copy of your ISP agreement, and promise in writing not to use the disk in any activity not specifically permitted."

    "The BIOS, MBR and associated boot sequence files are customized for your enhanced consumer experience, and are present under the terms of a contract we have with 800lb-OL, and you must agree not to change them in any way, nor interfere with their communication of experience enhancement data when connected to the internet."

    Um, I think it's time to review the agreement/contract condition-setting process itself. It's getting out of hand. Remember when the 'phone company could dictate exactly what you could have inside your house, attached to their wires? Now you can do as you please, so long as you match the interface specs (though watch of a replay in terms of network use ;-/ ).

    There are some conditions which have no business in any agreement, being essentially meddlesome and/or irrelevant to the central sales transaction. Unlike riders on bills in Congress, these are not part of a checks-and-balances process. These agreement riders are pure abuse.

    I'm fed up to here with it. Every "agreement" for anything nowadays is packed with everything the lawyers can think of to waive your rights and expand theirs. It's really abusive. And the low end sales droids can't accept a marked-up agreement, so it's all or nothing. There ought to be a law that forces subsidiary "agreement" terms to have opt-out check boxes, so e.g., you don't have to agree to let a company share all the data on the form (and whatever you gave them permission to check on) with whomever they please, just to get a cell 'phone or buy a big HDTV on credit.

    Also, if they don't have a right to control something after a sale, they should not be allowed to make it a condition of sale either.

  • At a guess I would have to say this is the influence of MS. That or like someone said earlier the rep is confused. However, regardless of your choices you should not be forced to take an OS. If you go to the local store and buy cigarette papers they don't make you buy tobacco so you don't use the papers for other substances. Another point, in Australia we have laws that prohibit second line forcing ie when you buy a product you can't be forced to take another.(*Warning very simplified description*). Do laws like this exist in the U.S.? If so then surely it is illegal. Would be in Australia as I understand the law, then again who is going to challenge it?

  • Hardly. Owning a car and a drivers license is different than owning a computer an an OS license. If you can't under stand that -

    You don't drive a 2000 pound computer down the highway, at the risk of other peoples lives, do you?

    You don't have to prove, at some point, that you are morally responsible, that you won't drive your computer when your drunk, or that you won't modify it beyond what DOT specifies.

    If you crash your computer, you're not bringing insurance rates up higher, you don't damage physical property (usually! overclockers beware:).

    Are there laws governing the safe operation of a computer? The legal owning of a computer?

  • Congratulations! That is the strangest reply I have ever recieved..
  • >in Australia we have laws that prohibit second line forcing ie when you buy a product you can't be forced to take another

    You mean, like when you go to the fast food and take a menu, they are not supposed to propose some extra ice cream ?
  • You don't need a drivers license to buy a car. Just to drive one. Cars can be collected, left to sit and rust, etc.

    Might make it ewasier to buy one (and certainly to get it home)!
  • choice. The company or companies I would be upset at would be the ones that insist you take Microsoft Windows; at least in this day and age you *finally* have a choice.

    In regards to this policy preventing piracy: what's to keep me from sending my Windows 98 SE license that's already running my current machine? (Not that I need to worry; I currently have *way* too many Windows licenses to care.)

    (Next: Microsoft requests that my post be removed because it demonstrates a way to circumvent the copy protection process [the license code] and under the DMCA, that's not legal.)

    -T
  • The ISO requirements are probably related to QA -- how do you run a burn-in or other suite of tests is there's no OS?

    Otherwise, the manufacturer has to load OS, test, unload OS. PITA for them.
  • Look into the idea of Right to Travel:

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~karl/govt/driver/driver.h tml

    http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/4417 /vehiclecertorig.html

    The short answer is no, you don't even need a driver's license to drive on public roads, providing you are not a commercial driver. It is the Constitutionally protected "right-to-travel". Most people are unaware of such a thing - most judges are unaware of such a thing. I believe every case that has been brought before a court on these grounds has ended up being thrown out (yeah, you will get arrested or ticketed for driving without a license. But show up in court, and argue against it and, provided you have all the paperwork (the MSO is the big one - you have to buy your car outright in cash to even hope to get it, and even then it is a bitch to obtain), and no liens against your car (this won't happen if you paid cash, but if you had to get a loan, which most people have to, kiss that MSO goodbye - the MSO, along with the purchasing invoice and the title, form a complete bill-of-sale, proving you own the vehicle. Most of the time, the MSO gets "split" between the lien holder and the state for licensing, and thus, technically, you don't own your vehicle - the state does), and it will be thrown out, due to Constitutional protection.

    Look into it - look at the various cases, read the Constitution and what it says regarding travel, and you will soon realize how we have let ourselves get screwed...

  • Re:Corporate responsibility: Don't insult customer (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25, 2000 @06:10PM (#1047343)
    Asking why you want a blank disk is like asking why you are black and driving in a white neighborhood. It's not right, and it's insulting.

    It's not their place to "require a license" that they are not party to. That's not "playing ethically," that's being a meddling busybody.

    Don't let the desirability of ends (e.g., preventing piracy) make you think any means promoting the ends are therefore ok and ethical. This fallacy of thought is all too common in Congress, and resulting laws show it.

    As it happens, I have licenses up the kazoo, with a Universal MSDN subscription (now lapsed, so I don't have w2k stuff), Red Hat deluxe direct from them, BSD power pak, an old OS/2 Warp, old MSDOS's, and Windows from 3.1, many kilobucks' worth over time, all paid for, and I have the receipts. Beside all those options, I may want to get a NIC with a boot prom and boot a custom file server right onto the metal, and use the disk in raw LBA mode for a great big hashed database hashing direct to bucket sector numbers, or any other thing that's none of their business.

    It is not the business of a box seller to check on my honesty, (dammit) (except, to a point, re credit, if they are extending that).

    I could see doing some checks if I were buying arms, chemicals, or explosives, but a dumb computer?? It's the arrogance and stupidity of thinking it's ok treat everyone as suspect that gets me. No, worse, it's that they even think they have a right to ask for evidence of honest motives. Just asking is soft-core character assassination.

    Of course, if they have to forego revenue when they give you a blank disk, then it's understandable that they wouldn't want to. But leave crime prevention out of it when you are talking to potential customers, because it's insulting. And people sense it, even if they can't articulate why.

    The message to the sales folks is, "Insulting your customers is bad for sales." B-A-D F-O-R S-A-L-E-S is B-A-D F-O-R Y-O-U-R I-N-C-O-M-E, and that is all you care about, ethics has nothing to do with it. Got the taste of your medicine yet? Go back to beginning of this paragraph.

  • I recently (beginning of March) bought a Poweredge 4400 from Dell, no OS, no questions asked. Is this a new policy?
  • Dell, when taken to court on this, will lose.

    Seems a bit of an extreme reaction. Just tell them its none of their business. If they insist go to a different supplier.

  • Last time I bought a box from Dell, before they started selling Linux, I tried to order the box without an OS. I talked to three different sales reps, and they told me three different things:

    The first said that it was against a Dell policy, but she didn't know which one. She thought, though, that it meant they couldn't test them properly. Or something. She promised to find out and call back but never did.

    The second one told me that they weren't allowed to do it because their contract with Microsoft didn't allow them to ship the computers without an OS. And they only sold Microsoft OSes.

    The third said that it was illegal for them to ship a computer without an OS. That's right, against the law. Of coure, they couldn't remember exactly which law that was.

    At this point, I gave up and ordered a computer from Gateway. I still had to buy a copy of Windows that I threw away, but at least they didn't feed me a lot of bullshit.

  • Thery are saving themselves some headache. Forget the normal slashdot participant, these are being sold to the general population. If they pre-install the OS, they can ensure all the drivers and components are working.

    No OS, puts them at the mercy of the installer. Whether that be an experienced sysadmin or Uncle Walt, who "always wanted to try it".

    Of course the cynic in me adds:
    Isn't part of the MS agreement with such vendors that they had to pay for the license regardless of whether they ship you the box with it installed?

  • Hi, This is my first post, but here goes.

    I work for a major system manufacturer... "syst*max" and we were recently notified of the "empire"'s new license agreement requirements for major OEM's. They are as follows (what I know of them for my job- senior tech support)

    #1. Systems cannot ship with original Windoze media. We are permitted to ship a recovery disc, provided the disc will only work with that system, and we must pay ADDITIONAL fees to Micr*soft for each of said disc.

    #2. Our agreement will allow us to ONLY sell Micr*soft OS on our systems, and those customers or companies wanting a pc or bunch of pcs without an OS, must show proof of ownership of licenses for a Micr*soft OS, otherwise we are not allowed to sell said systems. In fact, managment has warned us all that any employees who violate this policy (processing a system without a MS OS) will be terminated! The only exception is MS will allow us to sell a server without an OS if the customer shows proof of ownership of a NOVELL server product.

    There you have it folks. The evil empire hasnt learned it's lesson. Hope I have been of some help.
  • Remind me to explain the concept of a joke to you sometime.
    --
  • I recently (beginning of March) bought a Poweredge 4400 from Dell, no OS, no questions asked. Is this a new policy?

    Its probably a desktop PC-only policy which isn't enforced on servers, since Joe/Jane Average isn't going to be buying a PowerEdge sans OS license and then proceed to call up Dell Technical support asking why [insert OS here] doesn't install correctly. If you're buying a server, Dell assumes that you know what you're doing. (whether that's actually the case.... )

    On the other hand, it could just be a particularly rigid sales rep who doesn't understand why you wouldn't want Windows 98SE and thinks you're just trying to make his/her life more difficult. I've jumped through this hoop trying to get Windows NT 4 pre-installed from a certain vendor, so asking for Linux and getting the run-around isn't suprising.

  • You only need the drivers license on public ground. You can drive at any age on private land (assuming the owner doesn't mind).
  • Yes, but (having worked on a help desk) there are several times that I'd wished for license requirements before someone can legally obtain a modem, network card, or network-connected computer.
  • I mean, if I buy a car I'm supposed to have a driver's license, right?
    --
  • There you have it folks. The evil empire hasnt learned it's lesson. Hope I have been of some help.

    I'll be! Thanks for warning me. I was eyeing one of those fine systems, but a quick call confirmed that no, they couldn't sell be a custom-configured system without Windows.

    I'll be putting my $$'s someplace else...

    -Brent
  • According to a rep from Quantex or Tiger (its been a year or so ago) companies ship systems with an OS or require an OS license because in order to meet with some ISO standard of Computer Manufacturing systems must be ready to run out of the box. Proving that there is an OS license probably protects that status....
  • For what it is worth, you should know that licenses to Microsoft Windows are no longer transferable. That means that if you have Windows 98 installed on one of your machines and you buy a new one, you cannot use your copy of Win98 EVEN IF you remove it from the old system entirely.
  • If you want to buy MS Windows 98 from ComputerStrippers.com [computerstrippers.com], apparently MS only allows them to sell the OS [serverplus.com] if the purchase also includes either a hard drive, CPU, or motherboard.
  • They (Dell) saves themselves the headache already. They only support OSes they sell, and they have to be in "original factory condition" before they'll seriously help.

    After a few minutes of questioning the tech suggests using that "emergency recovery CD" to restore, and then they'll troubleshoot.

    Anyhoo, why order a Dell without an OS when you can burn a copy of it for all your friends! :-)

    -sid

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