IT Workers In The US Military Reserves?

A semper-fi Anonymous Coward asks: "I've been seriously thinking of enlisting in the USMCR ^[?] for a while now and I think I'm pretty set except for the question of how it will affect my civilian IT career. I'm planning to leave my current job when I decide to go to boot camp, but I'm wondering if my having to be away one weekend/month, 2 weeks/year will adversely affect my job prospects. Theoretically my being in the Reserves can't be held against me when applying for a job. Also, if I ever need to be deployed my position is supposed to still be available when I get back. I was wondering if any readers out there could give me some of their experiences with being in the Reserves and working in the IT field?"

"I've never had any problems finding IT jobs ever since I graduated high school (I'm 21 now) so I'm hoping that my experience and knowledge will balance out the fact that I might have to pick up and leave in the middle of a project. I'm also thinking that maybe I could just become a freelance consultant so that I could at least try to work around my drills (the scheduled Reserve training each month and once a year)."

Technically, you're right.

[chaobell]

They aren't supposed to hold your being in the Reserves against you. And they're supposed to hold your job open for you while you're away doing Reserve things.

But they can always dig up some meaningless little tidbit to hold against you and use as an excuse for not hiring you/letting you go/etc. I would hope that most employers wouldn't do this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen quite often.

In my limited experience, generally a positive

[RobertEdwards]

Military experience is seen as a sign the individual is mature and works well in a team environment. (Contrast with Fresh College graduate to taste.) Active involvement in the Reserves, ditto.

Disclaimers:

First: I am not and have not ever been in the Military Reserves - this observation is based on co-workers.

Second: I work in State government agency with a large percentage of employees Law Enforcement personnel. We've been seriously affected by reserve call-ups - many Police officers have reserve committments. This is a strong part of our specific organizational culture, and my observations may or may not be widely applicable.

They'd be fools

[cybermage]

What you're saying about how it's supposed to work is spot on. But there are always people operating in ignorance of the law and it's hard to tell when someone is actually descriminating on a hiring choice vs. just not picking you, unless they're dumb enough to actually bring it up.

That said, you wouldn't want to work for someone who would descriminate on that basis anyway. It has been my experience as a past employer of ex-military/reservists that they have the best work ethic I've seen and present the least trouble when it comes to things like following policies and taking direction. I'm convinced that these traits are a result of military service making them the better candidate.

Employers should realize that even with slightly reduced availability of the employee, greater overall productivity is more likely. Yeah, it might be inconvenient if your two weeks fell in the middle of a big project, but it's not like it's a surprise. And as for active service, well, that's the risk you take. You could just as easily crash your car and be out as long (and at greater expense.)

--

Depending on what you do in the Reserves

[Zachary Kessin]

You might be able to use it to your advantage, well last month in the reserves I did X. Also if you have earned a higher rank you should be able to use that with at least some employers to show that you will be a responsable and good worker etc.

I have no direct expirience with this so reality may vary.

The cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.

lying?

[intuition]

Whats to prevent someone from not disclosing that they are in the reserves? Why does this have to be disclosed to your employer at the time of employment? Does anyone have any references to what is and what is not required of the reservist employee and potential/actual reservist employer?

Re:lying?

[shinji]

Lying on an application is usually grounds for dismisal. Once a commitment to the reserves did come up you would have given them all the reason they need to fire you. You lied, end of story.

Semper Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

The firm that I work for not only pays you the two weeks that you are drilling but they will also make up the difference in you pay if you get called to active duty (up to 6 months). When you enlist, try and sign up for a m.o.s that you can get an security clearance (02xx, 26xx, 60xx, 28xx, etc). Your security clearance is worth $$$, especially if you live an area around military bases.

The real deal

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, everything above is just speculation. Here's the deal - I'm a software engineer in the Valley; I'm also finishing out the end of my contract in the national guard, in which I enlisted after I ets'd out of active duty. Yes, employers are legally required to support your guard schedule. And yes, "Employers should realize that even with slightly reduced availability of the employee, greater overall productivity is more likely." In fact, the pro-reserve sentiment expressed in most of the replies is commendable and in theory, most employers are happy to support the reserves/guard. But consider this - no employer is happy about an employee consistently missing work; is your boss really going to be pleased when you tell them that no, you can't get the test cases / code / data model done this weekend because you have to go to drill? Is s/he really going to feel OK about missing a production deadline because you're busting your ass training all weekend? I'm not saying that your career will be negatively impacted specifically because you're in the reserves; it's just that having such a big (and yes, it's much bigger than that nifty "weekend / two week" slogan) commitment will affect the other areas of your life, including work. Also, don't let this discorouage you from joining the reserves - it can be a great experience. Just don't buy into the "employers will love you; it's great management training" platitudes. The question you need to answer is, "Does the utility of my prospective guard experience outweigh the negative impact that such a large time commitment will have on the other areas of my life (e.g. professional, personal)?" Good Luck.

ooo-ra

[Gehenna_Gehenna]

I was in the service for about 6 years(Go NAVY). While not active in the reserves, I do have some suggestions for you to use to your benifit from your military traing. 1.Training, training, training. Leadership training, drug awareness, saexual abuse awareness, sensitivity traing. The US military is not just about guns any more. All the training is well documented, and almost all looks good on a resaume. 2. Teamwork. 'Nuff said. Good in any environment. 3. Most employers know that military people are used to working in unusual environments doing a variety of different jobs at once. Multi-tasking under pressure. I've found that my military experience gave me an edge over my competetors. this is not meant to be a Navy commercial. It's not for everyone. But if you must join, there ARE benefits.

I've been in your shoes! - Read this! (USMCR vet)

[Atomic Punk]

I was one of (U)ncle (S)ams (M)isguided (C)hildren for six and a half years in the reserves. (Sergeant (E-5), MOS 2531 - Field Radio Operator) (Oohrah, radio operators do it with frequency til it 'hertz) I've been in your shoes, not quite the same situation, but very similar and I fully understand your anxieties. Difference between your situation and the one I was in (I got out in '95) is that I'm a blue collar worker, most of the jobs where I live in Indiana are factory/industrial. Anyhow, most places I worked at never gave me ANY problem whatsoever about reserve duties. Even the one technical job I had, (temp/manpower for EDS for a year) respected my reserve duties with no questions asked. Most jobs I held had policies that they would pay you the difference from your regular civilian pay to what you got in the military during your two week summer duty if that pay was less than your normal paycheck. My employer, DaimlerChrysler does this as well. The only time I was really worried about losing my job was when I was I first got a call to work for Chrysler (before the Daimler takeover[H[H[H[H[H[H[H[Hmerger fiasco, ahem) after trying to get on there for about 4 years *FINALLY! WoOt!* For a bit of perspective for my situation, getting hired by Chrysler or Delco Electronics (as it was then called, now Delphi Automotive) was like hitting the lottery in comparison to all other jobs in my area. Anyhow, I was hired by chrysler just one month before I was to go on a major combined arms exercise (CAX); note: get used to acronyms...you think you see alot of acronyms or buzzwords in the IT world you haven't seen shit til you get in the military. I was really worried about asking my supervisor for two weeks off when I had just got hired and it was a closed union shop, but you dont get in the union til you get 90 days in, and until then you have to walk on ice, be on time, all eyes are on you, and basically you cant screwup or miss/be late for work at all. Period. Well, everything turned out ok, my supervisor was a hard ass type (think of Hitler and Mini-me from Austin powers genes in one person), but only jokingly gave me a hard time about it and wished me luck. It wasn't til a bit later that I found out that it was MANDATORY for them to let me go. I found out from my commanding officer that the U.S. government highly frowns upon employers who dont give their reservists some accomodation and can come down with a vengeance legally and hammer them for noncompliance. I also found out later that at least in cases like mine where working for a major company it would have looked real bad for them to not cut reservists some slack if they have major purchase contracts with them and could jeopardize future business. Of course it helped that one of my commanding officers from one of my reserve units I was in was a attorney in his civilian job, and he meant business...Noone was going to fuck with his Marines, or they would have hell to pay for it. Anyways this point is moot for me, because Chrysler gives me better benefits (education included) than GI bill benefits and they ACTIVELY SEEK OUT VETERANS for their employees. As one other poster touched upon, alot of employers realize that most vets have an excellent work ethic, are honest, intelligent, more disciplined, have developed or have been trained in a variety of skillsets, able to work easily with nearly anyone (military people move around alot, heh) and are more mature generally than the average joe sixpack whos last job was either flipping burgers or working the slurpee machine at a 7-11 store. I was really shocked to find out that where I work (Kokomo Transmission, UAW 685 - close to 6500 people), a vast, vast, vast majority of them are veterans. Lots of vet support groups there, every thursday was "Marine day" and we all wore marine corps t-shirts, and in my old dept we still celebrate the Marine Corps Birthday every Nov 10th, EVERY MARINE IN THE WHOLE PLANT shows up on that day to sing the marine hymn, cut the ceremonial cake for the youngest and oldest marine, etc (You'll learn soon enough if you are joining the marines as you say, that the marines are VERY heavy into tradition). Noone in the plant, supervisors, managers, I mean NOONE gives us any shit about it. I've been there for 6 years and tradition still holds strong. That says something when you have that many employees to begin with. The only points of advice I give to you is that (1) Dont worry about your job. (2) If you do join the marines, get used to "hand me downs" from the army and very stringent training budgets. The phrase "marines do better with less" is a widely held view and not far at all from just being a "stereotypical service rivalry thing". I would have to say that the Navy is *THE SHIT* when it comes to computer and/or electronics training. The few ex navy guys in my classes thought what we were going through was comparitively grade school material after their training in the navy. Also, the Marines in comparison have a budget comparable in worth to the value of a cracker jacks box prize. I nearly aced my ASVAB (armed services vocational aptitude battery) test and scored in the top 10% of the Marine Corps when I entered and they put me in MOS 2841, which is electronics/ground radio repair. To make a long story short, I may have had the aptitude, but I didnt know jacksquat about electronics past the meme of "..flip the switch, the light comes on..." nor did I have any interest in it. It was a year long course, and about 4/5th's of the way into it I failed ONE test below 70% (and I believe that was due to a really fucked up oscilloscope (test once, voltage there, try 5 secs later, it wasn't and no parameters had changed) and was kicked out of the program. Why? Not enough money in the budget. In the Navy or Air Force where budget money is passed out in crates the size of texas they have nearly infinite chances for retaking a test or course. One other pro and con for you to consider. Promotion in the marines is almost like watching flys mate. Only other service that is worse is the Coast Guard (both are very small as I'm sure you are aware). However, TECH's in the marines get very nice sign on and retaining bonuses and certain fields get promoted FAR faster than other MOS's (military occupational skill). Case in point: I was a lance corporal (E3) in my reserve unit when I witnessed a a guy join my unit temporarily for a week or two as a civilian (forgot what they call this classification). 12 months later after boot camp, and ground radio repair schooling he shows up same rank as a lance corporal, I got promoted to corporal, then just a few short months later he was promoted to corporal in way less than half the time it took me. I picked up the rank of sergeant right at the end of my contract and by that time he had already been promoted to staff sergeant (E7). Pissed me off. He was a pencil carrying desk jockey (albeit very, very intelligent) with way less time than I had, never carried a radio on his back, and always stuffed in some air conditioned portable tech bench/lab. Turned out to be a very good friend of mine, but it still gnawed at me. Well, enough of my rambling post. I hope I have given you some insight.

Semper Fi

[Mr. Foogle]

Take the followig with a grain of salt - I *was* active duty for eight years, never a reservist. I'm also not in a management position.

Most employers you'll want to work for will honor the reserve obligation, and value the extra skills you'll pick up. Your reserve time won't be a surprise, as it's scheduled and can be worked around.

Having said that - you'll probably spend more time active than the recruiter promised. I'm not trying to disuade you (far from it) but remember all the thousands of reservists in '90 and '91. We got a shipment of reservists in Japan during Desert Shield who were cheesed off because 1) they were called to active duty for the duration and 2) they were in Japan, not Saudi. Go figure.

Insight From the Trenches

[King Louie]

I am currently a Marine Reservist working in the IT field. I left active duty in July. Since then, I have met several reservists that work in IT. To a person, their employers do not have a problem with it. There are a lot of potential benefits to the employer:

There are plenty of jobs in the Corps that are directly IT related. Talk to the recruiter about getting a guaranteed MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) assignment before enlisting. If he says that can't be done, tell him to go pound sand. It can be done, and he needs your body to fill his quota. See if you can get assigned to MOS 4066 - the title is something like Computer Systems Technician. Don't let the title fool you -- you will do everything from installing word-processing software to splicing fiber-optic cables. The Corps rarely lets a formal job description get in the way of assigning duties. If you can do the work, the work will be assigned to you. If not, you will be taught. You will gain valuable experience on real-world systems.

The Corps will send you to school. You can get formal training above and beyond the minimum required -- and it won't cost your employer a dime.

There are a lot of Reserve billets that allow a much more flexible schedule than the standard one-weekend-a-month, two-weeks-a-year. My slot allows me to break that up and rearrange it to better mesh my civilian schedule with my military schedule. It all depends on what is available and what you want to do. If you want to be an infantryman, you will have to drill with the rest of your unit. I work for an office-bound unit (11 years of field service, with the infantry and various helicopter squadrons -- I earned some time indoors), so I can tailor my schedule better.

There are plenty of opportunities, many of which can directly pay off for your employer. What is available depends on what you want to do and where you live. It is at least worth looking into.

If you would like some detailed info, especially in the Northern Virginia area, go ahead and drop me a line, I'd be happy to answer any questions (no, I am not a recruiter): [e-mail]

Personnal Experiences with this

[Cerb]

Ok, I was Army Reserves not Marine, but it's all the same under the law. I did find that having that on my resume actually helped me land a job. People know that you can follow directions and have some self discipline.

As for the time away from work, you are supposed to be allowed the time off. They do not have to pay you, but they also should not require the use of vacation time. I always used my vacation time when I'd leave so that I'd have something of a paycheck. The part about having your job when you get back applies to being deployed, not your AT (Annual Training). Basic Training/Boot Camp falls under this classification. You cannot be outright replaced during your time away, but when you come backj they don't have to give you the EXACT positionback. They are only required to provide a comparable position.

As I said before I've only seen positive from being in the reserves. I've never been screwed around by an employer because of it. There was a guy in my unit that was layed off during an AT. Man you chould have seen JAG go after them. Nothing makes a company pucker like being sued by the military! :)

Some employers look for military ties

[clay]

I have about 15 years Army Reserve time. I havent had problems from my employers because of reserve commitments, and there are some aspects that are a help. If you get an IT related MOS that helps big time with civilian skills, as the DOD has the best IT Security courses available. Not to mention the employers know that you have the discipline to show up on time, do the tasks assigned, and not bitch about everything. My Dad , who is a retired Sheriff's CXaptain, made a point of hiring military types because of that discipline. He never served in the military, so he only had others to observe for those qualities. Not to mention the military has a huge online library of CBT's avalable for free (Accessable from anywhere) if you want some training.

Active Duty

[anubis__]

I'm currently active duty in the Marine Corps and work IT (4067 - programmer, ADA to be exact). Its done nothing for me really on the IT side of the house except shelter me from the private market for the last three years enabling me to learn whatever I want as opposed to working late for overtime (and thus less time to learn).

I doubt that being in the reserves would adversely effect your abilities to perform your job but I'd imagine it'd be an annoyance. Its a good experience though and I'd recommend it to anyone who needs some change in their life or has problems staying financially stable or organized.

What's your job title?

[ImpactSmash]

I don't understand why you didn't indicate what your current job title is. This makes a HUGE difference is many cases. You said that you work in the IT field and are 21 years old. Are you a Computer Operator, Technician, Programmer, Systems Analyst, SysAdmin, Script Kiddie, or what?

Also, are you trying to earn your degree, do you have any college or Post-Secondary training? Just because you enlist in the Reserves, don't think that people will respect what that commitment entails. In most cases, though, it can't hurt your chances AS LONG AS you act the part, meaning that you consistently show that you are more responsible and mature than others in your age group. You should dress appropriately, follow Marine Corps regulations regarding facial hair and haircuts (although you don't have to keep your hair always high and tight, it should always be short). Basically, after you finish with Boot Camp, take pride in who you are - a U.S. Marine!

I am almost finished with my current enlistment (May) and am considering whether or not to try to get a reenlistment as a 4066 - Small Computer Systems Specialist. But, after almost six years, you do start to get a little tired of doing and hearing the same things over and over. The main thing to remember is that you need to make higher expectations on yourself than what other expect from you, so if you don't meet those expectations, you only disappoint yourself.

For what it's worth...

[dave-fu]

...I know a chap, ex-Forces, pretty high ranking, clearances, blah blah blah, now working in IT.
One interview he was on went swimmingly well, he didn't get the job. He asked why, was told (point-blank) something to the effect of "you're ex-military and you'll be after my job in weeks."
I'm not saying this is anything widespread, just that if you go on interviews, maybe don't ask so many questions about promotions?

Reserves

[pvera]

I have been out of the military since 1997 and I have always had a few reservists working in my staff. None of them has ever had any kind of trouble for the weekend drills and the yearly training. In fact, many of my fellow managers with military background usually see that as a plus.

Pedro

In the Reserves

[proclivity]

I was in the Army Reserves from 94-98. Can't say that it was fun after training. We were a bastard unit that got flip flopped from one battalion to the next in the wake of the Clinton downsizing. We never had equipment. We were NEVER combat ready while I was an active reservist. So from experience, don't listen to the democrat f-nuts that say the military is in great shape. They don't know a damn thing about the military.
If you're thinking about joining, then don't make the same mistake that I made, check the units out near your home. Make SURE that they have $$ to train with or you'll be picking up garbage all day long and looking for a place to hide and take a nap.
As far as it affecting your career, well that could go a lot of different ways. I don't think you're going to want to join the Marines if you are looking for a lot of understanding. They are very hard core about "the core", and they are great for it, because I wouldn't want their job. Consider the Army as an "in-between." It takes 8 people working the back lines to keep 1 person on the front lines. The Army does a LOT of support work for all branches and maintains a bit more grunge respect than the Air Force or the Navy. It is my opinion that you will have more flexibility in the Army Reserves with your career, but be cautious. You can't force your current employer to keep your position open while you go off to basic training for 2 months. I believe that the descrimination law applies only if you are already an enlisted member and applying for a job. It doesn't work like the family leave act.
Either way, I would not have traded my military experience in for anything. High school had become a joke and made me lazy. I went in looking for a new paradigm, and got it. And what other job in the world teaches you how to shoot people from 300 meters, throw hand grenades, launch anti-tank rockets, and set mines?

Good luck in whatever you choose.