Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
News

Do You Consider Your Social Life When You Choose A Career? 576

Posted by Cliff
from the all-work-and-no-play-makes-jack-a-dull-boy dept.
JordoCrouse writes "There has been an uproar in Salt Lake City, Utah over the comments of the new Iomega CEO, Bruce Albertson. Albertson attacked Utah's very annoying and confusing liquor laws as a reason why Utah has had a serious problem attracting engineers and other technology oriented folk, despite the low cost of living, high quality of firms, and access to excellent education. I didn't grow up here, but I went to college in Salt Lake City, so I was used to the various quirks of the local laws, but I am wondering: Do issues like liquor laws and social life really affect where engineers and programmers want to work? Does Mr. Albertson have a point, or was he just frustrated that he couldn't atract any good prospects?"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Do You Consider Your Social Life When You Choose A Career?

Comments Filter:
  • If the voters happen to be church-folk who don't want drinking, that's the way a democracy works.

    That's not how US's democracy works. If that were the case, then the problems that minority groups have now would be much greater. For instance... slavery might be acceptable. One of the Constitution's main goals it to prevent the tyranny of the majority. It names specific things that aren't allowed, such as church/state allegiances.

    One of the nice things about 'bible belts' or 'tech belts' if you will, is that people of a given persuation can enjoy each others' views together

    And the other 30% of the population get to suffer? That's just not how things work. Diversity in viewpoints and outlooks on life is usually viewed as a good thing. Let the teetotalers argue their point to others because they might have some good points, just don't let them force others to take their viewpoint.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:31AM (#401589)
    Seriously, maybe, just maybe the fact that there are millions of devout cultists (aka Mormons) in this state is the reason that everyone stays the hell away.

    Some things they preach:

    - The end of the world by fire and mass destruction is coming any day now! Really!

    - If you are a righteous Mormon you will become a GOD! With your own worlds and people, and creating billions of spritual children with your many wives in heaven! (yes, they do believe that you can have multiple wives in heaven!)

    - Their temples, like the endowment cerimony, are straight from the occult! They used to swear on their LIVES! that they would never tell what happened in their cerimonies lest their tongue be cut out, their guts spilled and so on! Crazy stuff...

    and all sorts of other stuff. Having a majority of the population that beleives in things like this would be seriously discomforting to most people.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26, 2001 @09:02AM (#401590)
    Not just a matter of your age. Software is a global profession, considering how easily people move across continents. Here's my impression, based on personal experience and what I've heard from others.

    * Singapore : clean, excellent standard of living, everything you do is monitored. some people like it, some don't. YMMV. probably good for a short term contract, but I wouldn't live there.

    * United States: The motherload. No other country offers so many opportunities or so many jobs. Cons - expect to chop off a solid chunk of your life and sacrifice it to the corporate god. If you're a citizen/resident, expect to get good payback. If you're a foreigner on a visa, possible the worst country to work in, because you don't have any freedom (ironic, considering the ideological brainwashing they subject the young kids to there, land of the free and all that). Permanent residency: 3-7 years. People who leave the US after their visa expires invariably end up wondering why they went there in the first place. Europe and Australia are much better alternatives.

    * Australia/NZ : Excellent choice. Very safe, good standard of living, relaxed and friendly people, high shortage of tech. talent. Cons - not many choices. handful of cities to live in. not many companies. high level of govt. regulation, which means lower competition, suckass ISPs. Good beer, though. Easy to get a visa in a day or two. Permanent Residency - 6 months. Great place for families, low crime and no guns.

    * Europe: Depends on the country. Lots of variety. Visa rules vary hugely. People working in UK have differing stories - the ones near london like it, the ones in the country towns are bored to death. Cultural, linguistic, and racial factors are a big deal in europe.

    * Canada: Friendly, cleaner, nicer version of the US, with better cheese and the metric system. Getting a work visa is easy in terms of paperwork, but you won't find many companies willing to hire you on a work visa. Lots of bureaucracy at the company HR level, though the govt. does things speedily. Escape haven for programmers whose US visa is expiring - get Canadian residency (6 months) and then get a job. Good place to settle down for families.
  • by mosch (204) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:41AM (#401591) Homepage
    Is social life a factor? what a DUMB fucking question! Despite the stereotype, the fact is that most engineers really do lead active lives beyond work. Additionally, they're likely to be logical people, who like to live in places that aren't insane.

    I think that Utah is truly one of the scariest states in the republic. The line between church and state isn't just fuzzy, it's been erased, and the moronic liquor laws are just one embodiment of that problem.

    I can safely say I'd never, ever move to Utah, not even to marry my cousin (which is legal there, when you turn 50).

    --
    "Don't trolls get tired?"
  • I'm currently giving some thought to looking at other jobs. And, I'm considering almost all areas of the country (USA, in this case). Is there a list of the states' blue laws somewhere? If so, I'd like to consult that, as I'll make a point of *not* living in restrictive states.

    Or, if no such list is available, perhaps someone can give some info on the blue laws (or lack thereof) for a few specific states. Can anyone speak up for Washington (state), Texas, or Oregon?

    Alex Bischoff
    ---

  • Of course, it helps that the kinds of places I want to live are thriving metropolises with a cosmopolitan nightlife and so the kinds of places that tend to have high-tech employment, but I would choose a place to live entirely on the basis of what it's like to live there, and then look for a job based on that. In particular, as a bi atheist I'm never going to move to somewhere like Utah where the homophobia and religious intolerance is going to be way beyond what I'm prepared to put up with.
    --
  • by Suydam (881) on Monday February 26, 2001 @07:59AM (#401599) Homepage
    Of course "social life" plays into everyone's decisions about career.

    You do, however, have to take a broad definition of the term "social life". For a 22 year old programmer, social life = bars, nightclubs, etc....or it equals hiking, biking and camping availability. For a 35 year old single worker, it probably equals the same thing..but for a married, 35 year old father of two, "social life" is really churches, youth football leagues and PTO meetings.

    Whoever you are though, quality of life (which, to a large part, is defined by extra-curricular social interactions) plays a large role in a career selection.

  • by joss (1346)
    San Jose sucks... a lot

    Move: Santa cruz, Scot's valley, San Francisco, and several other places within driving distance don't suck.

    Telecommute a couple of times a week to cut down on time wasted in the car.

    If your company won't allow telecommuting, find one with a clue.

    YMMV
  • Mass has the same law, but the Kosher grocery stores can sell wine on sunday, mostly because they are not open on Sat.

    Personaly I would not live anywhere without a Jewish community. Its just to hard to train folks in places without many Jews that no they can't call me on Friday Night/Saturday.

  • by jd (1658)
    Agreed, to a large extent. The only quibble would be that the picture portrayed is a bit stereotypical.

    (Yes, sure, stereotypes exist precicely because they're common, but common != universal.)

    Like I said, though, that's more of a quibble than anything. If you're giving an example, it's going to be more understandable if you use stereotypes that people can follow, than really off-the-wall cases.

  • The State Liquor Commision is made up primarily of non-drinking Mormons.

    Hrmmm... It seems that there might be one or two Mormons in the state of Utah. In fact, apparently 70% of the population of that state is Mormon (with a great many of them abstaining from alcohol). I imagine that even if they appointed people to the State Liquor Commission out of a random sampling of the population it would be made up of primarily non-drinking Mormons.

    Somehow it was still possible to get a drink in Utah last time I passed through. This might possibly be because most Mormons (the wacky few aside) believe that people should be able to decide for themselves what to do with their lives.

    The Church as able to buy a section of main street without any public vote, which they turned into a pseudo-public park with very specific rules as far as conduct and what you can do there.

    Wow, imagine a country in which people are allowed to sell and purchase property at will! What an amazingly subversive idea! The LDS church has a big fat pile of money, I imagine that when they want to buy something, they can come up with the cash. Not too mention the fact that they probably own most of downtown Salt Lake City outright anyhow. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if most of the property near Temple Square was leased from the church. I imagine you would rather there were separate rules for property belonging to the Mormon church and its members. That would certainly clear up problems with them purchasing important parts of Salt Lake City and turning them into parks.

    The reason that they can specify conduct on their "park" is that it is their own private property. Just because I plant grass on my front lawn doesn't mean you can come over and play soccer there.

    I would certainly agree that Utah's unique culture takes more than a little getting used to (I don't live there anymore, nor am I inclined to move back), but saying that there is no separation of church and state is simply ridiculous.

  • The LDS church believes that the family is ordained of God, and that the roles of husband and wife are designed of God for our benefit. To them the idea of the nuclear family is a pretty big deal.

    Currently US law recognizes such a union as special. Can you blame people that hold the term "marriage" as sacred from defending it from being co-opted by people who would change it to mean something else entirely? The LDS Church has every right in the world to use its resources to protect those laws that it sees as important. Just like you have every right to use your resources to overturn those laws that you feel are not right.

    That's just part of living in a representative democracy.

  • That sounds a little like my college, and it was a state run school! All the dorms were single sex, and the women had to go though 2 or 3 sets of locked doors in order to get to their room. However, unlike what I've heard about UofU and BYU, women only made up about 25-30% of the population and of that amount, only a small percentage were what one would consider attractive. For example, my high school graduating class of 36 kids (rural school) had more attractive females than my entire college freshman class! At least at BYU, going out on dates is considered a common event. Most of my spare time was spent watching TV or playing around on my computer because there was nothing else to do (that is if you didn't want to destroy your brain cells at a bar). Come to think of it, that's pretty much what I still do now that I'm married. =)

  • Sure, those once were big name Utah companies, but I don't think that their downfall had anything to do with the liquor laws. It had more to do with a certain criminal monopolist in Redmond.

  • There are a few other businesses in the Bentonville area that would have sizeable IT depts. Sure, there aren't any big software firms that I know of, and there aren't pages and pages of want ads for programmers & engineers, but from what I've heard, it's a good place to live. The only thing that I wouldn't like about Wal-Mart is that apparently it's mandatory to be at work by 7:30am. I don't think I could handle that.

  • I would love to have a tech job in a rural area. The job that I loved more than any other was with a USGS facility that was surrounded by farms. After lunch many of the programmers would go for peaceful walks out in the country side. I would like to go back, but my wife hates snow.

    So what exactly is it that makes the urban or suburban lifestyle supposedly so attractive? Is it the traffic, polllution, or crime? The people packed into little apartment boxes downtown or cookie cutter houses in suburbia? Twenty-four hour shopping so my wife can waste my paycheck at any time of the night? I go to work and the come home to spend time with the family and tinker on my computer. The _only_ thing these areas offer me is employement. Given a choice between the smaller towns and the metro areas I've lived in, I'd choose the small towns (the only exception to that statement is SLC). Preferably, out in the country away from people.

    BTW, a very large majority of the population of Utah live in metro areas. I've heard some census types say that UT is one of the most urbanized states in the US. Sure, it's got lots of land, but most of it's empty.

  • I lived there for a little bit and loved it! I would certainly move back if I could. It's nice and clean with lots of outdoor activities participate in. Unfortunately, lots of other people have the same idea, and as a result housing can be high. I also prefer living in a state w/o an income tax.

    Contrary to popular belief, the state isn't totally LDS (about 70% state wide, less than 50% for SLC, I believe). If you want to drink, at least you can buy it. There are several places in the south where you can't (supposedly the county where Jack Daniels whiskey is distilled is a dry county!). Also, the liquor laws haven't stopped the Hollywood (some would say, Hollyweird) crowd from coming to Park City every year for the Sundance and other festivals.

    IMHO, this guy from Iomega is just hopping on Rocky Anderson's bandwagon to change standards for the stupid Olympics.

  • Uh, actually from what I've heard, people in UT (and CO) are bitching about all the Californians moving in and driving up housing costs.

  • No other religion demands 10%

    That's not true. Paying tithes or 10% of ones income is a part of the doctrine of most Christian denominations. The difference is that some churches strongly encourage their members to follow doctrine, and others don't. Besides, I'd rather write out a check & mail it to my bishop twice a month than sit through the weekly 15-20 minute begging & groveling for funds part of every service for every Pentacostal church that I've ever been a member of or visited. I'd much rather sit and listen to a guy stumble through his talk and means it than fake, gimicky, pseudo-entertainment that's more for show and lining the pockets of the pastor than worshiping God.

  • So called "Blue Light" laws are scattered all over the place ... especially in the so called "Bible Belt", which is where I happen to live. I find them very annoying, but over time am convinced that they will slowly get replealed.

    Just my 2c.

  • There is a lot of anti LDS ranting in the comments - this is nothing other than a community that has some laws reflecting the local community. Rockport Mass is a dry town. 80% of Mass is Catholic, and used to have blue laws on the books. This is hardly falling into "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Parts of Arkansas are dry, but then they have drive through liquor stores right over the border in Texas. Utah simply happens to be pretty much a dry state. I wouldn't expect Nevada to close down the Moonlight Bunny Ranch because I'm offended by sex workers any more than I'd expect Utah to have a bunch of cheesy liquor stores. Hmmm, I think I might like that better than living in Paramus NJ. Tech workers aren't alchies anyways.

    You know, the LDS church is quite tolerant - they helped provide some funding to build an ISKCON (Hare Krishna) temple in Provo!!!! BYU students and others even helped in the construction of the temple and visit there quite often in interfaith meetings. No kidding.

    So think before you get into the typical anti-religious rant. The same people who are so sensitive to other forms of bashing - gay bashing and race bashing, seem to find it ok to bash on traditional values followers.

    Be consistant for crying out loud!

    By the way, I follow the Gita, and am not a Mormon or other Judeo Christian follower.
  • "Does Mr. Albertson have a point, or was he just frustrated that he couldn't atract any good prospects?" Why the "or"? Who says they're mutually exclusive?
  • by llywrch (9023)
    Think of the attitude towards alcohol here in Oregon as ``loosening up." When I was a kid, the law was that beer & other spirits could not be advertised on tv on Sunday. IIRC, you could not buy the stuff then either.

    Today, we have brew pubs & wine tasting rooms. However, there are a few ``dry" locales (e.g. Monmouth) where you can't buy any liquor. And you have to buy spirits in state-owned liquor stores -- not at almost any store, as is the case in California. And I doubt we'll be seeing ``drive-throughs" as they have in (for instance) Ohio.

    Geoff
  • by MaggieL (10193) on Monday February 26, 2001 @07:58AM (#401646)
    ...but the liquor laws are only emblematic of a larger problem: my perception that the church/state lines are even blurrier there than elsewhere.

    I'm certain that LDS folks would not approve of how I live my life, and I'm not confident of their ability to keep their noses out of it.

  • I agree, but would put it a different way: One considers overall *quality of life*, rather than just "social life", when considering a career.

    In 1990, I spoke before the Cincinnati City Council about some gay-related issue: Business effects of quality of life were at the crux of my statement. I was then graduating from college, and trying to decide where I wanted to live. I loved Cincinnati for many reasons, but also learned to distrust the local law enforcement. (The long-time and still-current sheriff once allowed the male rapist of a lesbian to go free because, he said, "it was for her own good".)

    We can trace Silicon Valley's boom to many factors, but the influence of the socially liberal San Francisco must be considered high among them. Not that a socially liberal society will always encourage business growth: But in a business that relies on the work of artists (such as software development), it's essential. --Tom Geller

  • Yes it does in many cases. Think of it this way. As you grow up you get accustomed to a way of life and when you reach a certain age you expect a certain quality of living. This may be aplace that has good schools for you kids or it may be a place with lots of bars. It may be a place with a local music scene.

    I interviewed for a job at Evan and Sutherland whn I lived in Florida. When I found out they were in Utah (before my interview) I basically blew them off. I am not into mormans and that is there home land. They have this screwed up thinking that Joseph Smith is right. Of course they have some good things, but they are all 'holy than thou' and blah blah..

    Needless to say I am not trying to bash mormans, I just can't help myself when it comes to them. Anyway.. yes I think it is important. A job is basically your life, so why not make it as enjoyable as possible. After all they wouldn't call it work if you really enjoyed it ALL the time. Dot-commers though that work was always supposed to be enjoyed and now how many of them are looking for new jobs.. including my self ;-)

    Anyone looking for a programmer / analyst / software engineer / techie, skilled in Perl, C/ some C++, Java, or php???

    I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
    Flame away, I have a hose!

  • I spent a couple of years working an engineering job in Southern Idaho (and used to hang out in Salt Lake City on weekends on occasion). This was back in the early 80s, so things may have changed a bit, but here's my experience of the area:

    I moved out there from New York with some trepidation, but more-or-less found interesting stuff to do. I got into skiing (downhill and cross-country) and rock climbing, and one of the real advantages of being in that part of the country is you've got a lot of easy access to places to engage in sports like that and just as importantly, everyone you meet is going to be interested in something like this (the question is typically not "Are you doing anything this weekend?" but "Hey, where are you going skiing this weekend?").

    Culturally, the area leaves a lot to be desired. I picked Pocatello as a place to live because it had a small state university. The weekly film series there was watchable, but nothing heavy. The bands that they got to play were tremendously lame (I actually went to see Journey there because I hadn't seen any other live music in months. I left early.) There were was one funky old bookstore (with an impressive collection of hardcore pornography) in the old part of Idaho, but more often then not I ended up going to Waldenbooks and special ordering things. Salt Lake City was a little better in some respects, for example, they had a really good Science Fiction bookstore. I also thought the punk/mod types were interesting... you'd see these kids hanging around on scooters with "Clash" stickers on them. The SF convention in Salt Lake was small, but interesting (e.g. they got Fritz Leiber in as Goh).

    The people I met were okay by me, though a lot of them weren't from the area (a lot of ex-auto industry engineers from Michigan, for example). The few Mormon people I did hang around with were fine by me... nice folks with a sense of humor. (I personally have no complaints about Mormon women either... funny, I've heard other women complain about how "flirtatious" they are, though.)

    But: I don't know what it would've been like to live around there if I didn't have short hair, if I wasn't a white guy, etc. I also don't drink, so the liquor law weirdness didn't bother me tremendously: but there was one this time when I was doing a road trip through Utah, and a freind of mine wanted to buy beer. He didn't have an ID on him, but I had a NY driver's license (with no photo) and my security pass with photo and "Naval Reactor Facilty" emblazoned across it: They refused to sell me the beer. My friend was incensed by this: "This man has a DOE security clearence! He's authorized to handle nuclear fuel!"

    I guess I can remember another off-putting little incident: My girlfriend put in a request for a birthday present; she wanted a collection of nylons/tights of every available color. So I try and buy this stuff at a local department store, using a credit card, and my NRF site ID as photo ID. They went away into the back room and kept me standing around for a solid 20 minutes before deciding it was okay for me to buy women's lingerie. (In retrospect, maybe it was a mistake to try and do this with a "*Naval* Reactor Facility" ID.)

    So, bottom line is that I don't regret living there for a couple of years, but I also don't regret that I left after that, and I much prefer living in a "real" city...

  • I wouldn't consider moving to Utah because of the ridiculous blue laws there. Things are bad enough where I live now (midwest), and aren't much better where I am going (central Texas), but they are better than Utah. I personally think that every state should have liquor laws like Nevada... Open 24x7. I also think the drinking age should be lowered to 18.

    Of course the stupid politicians, old people and worried mothers of the world will never let that happen...

  • Unfortunately, the only way to make money programming is to work for a closed source company.

    I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but this is a load of excrement. The majority of programmers work in IT shops on in-house projects, not in shrinkwrap software producing organizations. While most in-house software is so specialized that it doesn't make sense to open source it as a whole, much of it contains parts that could be open sourced. It is also tremendously beneficial to use pre-written open sourced parts when developing an in-house application. This type of development works totally well with open source.

    And as for programmers not spending their free time writing open source software, it is silly to assume that many of them won't choose to do so on their own. Nothing forces them. Not everyone's idea of unwinding is the same. Programming and fresh air aren't mutually exclusive either when you are working on your own projects, at least not now that laptops and handhelds are readily available.

    And at any rate, I think it is more often the poor schmucks who are stuck working long hours in the dungeons of commercial software houses that are the victims of dehumanization than most open source developers. The fact that so many trolls spew the same tired cliches would seem to bear that out.

  • Of course Las Vegas is the fastest growing city in the US. Alcohol blue laws are only one thing, and the bay area has pretty lax and open standards in other areas that make it attractive to many people to live there. Personally, what keeps me out of the bay area most is the oppressively high cost of living. Second to that, the over litigousness and bizzare politics of California in general are kinda a turnoff, but that is a matter of personal preference I guess.

  • by Frijoles (16015)
    As someone who lives here in Utah, I can tell you that the liquor laws really suck for people who have not grown up here. No alcohol can be bought on Sunday (this is not due to the church, oh no, people need a day to get sober) and last summer the city voted not to allow micro-breweries in. I myself have lived here my whole life, so there is nothing for me to get used to, but just last week I had to watch one of my good friends leave because she was tired of dealing with the place.

    She grew up back east and had a hard time adjusting to Utah (she was here for college). This has happened to many of my friends that I have made in college. They can't handle living in Utah because of how anal^H^H^H^H annoying some of the people are.

    But as the common argument goes, move somewhere else if you don't like it. Most people around here have gotten used to it if they are here for very long. And as most out-of-state companies have pointed out to me on interviews, people from Utah usually return to Utah to live after a couple of years. They don't like being away from this place. When I go in to an interview, they don't see someone with skills, they see someone who is of the popular religion and will probably leave after a short time to be back among them (in which case they are incorrect).

    Fucking sucks, if you ask me. Oh well.
  • by Shoeboy (16224) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:06AM (#401671) Homepage
    While I don't have a career (I was fired for sexual harassment 6 months ago and haven't bothered to find another job) and I don't have much of a life, I did spend 18 years in Utah.

    I would never go back.

    It's not the restrictive liquor laws that are the problem. Hell, if it hadn't been for easy access to liquor I wouldn't have sent the email that got me fired.

    The problem is the environment. Utah is ugly as sin. The predominant form of vegitation in the great basin is sagebrush. There are also tall grasses that are green for 2 weeks in the spring and brown the rest of the year. It's ugly.

    It's also cold. Bitter cold. The best part is that the Salt Lake valley get's temperature inversions in the winter. This traps a pocket of extremely cold air in the valley. It's actually warmer at the ski resorts then down in the valley. This static cold air quickly turns brown from pollution and the snow gets a dirty crust. It's not pleasant.

    In the summer it's worse. The brine shrimp in the Great Salt Lake breed quickly and then die. Then they rot. A breeze will waft this pleasant aroma across the entire valley. I can't describe how bad it smells. If that's not enough, in North Salt Lake, there are sulphur springs. The surrounding area always smells like a fart.

    That's why people don't like living in Utah. If you look at popular high tech areas like the Bay Area or the Puget Sound area, they're great places to live. Utah is the armpit of the world.

    --Shoeboy
  • I don't have a social life :. it does not affect my career decisions. Bah. Thats nonsense. Not having a social life _can_ affect my decisions because I seem to prefer an environment where fridays are not launch-pads to weekend parties. I also prefer to work and not chatter about lifes little problems. But hey... thats me. Whatever floats your boat.

    ;P
    ---
    a=b;a^2=ab;a^2-b^2=ab-b^2;(a-b)(a+b)=b(a-b);a+b=b; 2b=b;2=1
  • I'm rarely here. In fact, I'm not here right now. You are simply imagining this post. It does not exist. It is only in your mind.

    Bah. :P You caught me.

    I meant that I have no life IRL. I seem to thrive on-line while I goof off off-line.

    booYeah.

    ---
    a=b;a^2=ab;a^2-b^2=ab-b^2;(a-b)(a+b)=b(a-b);a+b=b; 2b=b;2=1
  • > why should smokers have more rights then non-smokers ?

    Huh? Sorry that makes no sense. If smoking is allowed in a restraunt it isn't an extra right for smokers. You as a non-smoker simply choose not to take advantage of that particular right.

    These non-smoking laws are stupid. A restaraunt can designate the entire building smoke free if they choose. These laws are forcing business owners to do this which is wrong.

    If you don't like a restaurant because it's smokey complain to the manager. If they don't listen to you go somewhere else. Simple. You have the freedom of choice, let others have it too.
  • I'd think it's obvious.

    IF you are young, single, have no social life, and career advancement is your top priority, then you don't care about social life, perhaps.

    If you have a spouse, a family, or simply think there is more to life than work, then of COURSE you consider where you go to work.

    You should always weigh what you get out of work against what you get out of life outside work...
  • While the church/state lines are very sketchy in Utah, the interrelation of the Mormon church and many business in the state is far far worse. Everybody lists their Mormon affiliation on their resume and it's not uncommon for employers to check church references, etc. for a prospective applicant, and not to hire non-Mormons, de facto if not de jure. This is not to mention the enormous "good old boys" type network that means many jobs don't get listed at all, just filled by church buddies and their families.

    Even if I got a great job offer from a non-Mormon, international company in Utah, I wouldn't take it, since as an atheist, if I ever got laid off or wanted to change jobs, I would have maybe 10% of the options available to devout LDS chuchgoers.

    And as an atheist, I'm still legally protected by federal anti-discrimination laws, so the worst abuses are prevented or hidden. Banish the thought of ever living and working there if you're openly homosexual. I'd also think twice if I were a minority. It's disgracefully recently that blacks were even allowed to become LDS ministers, and the church doctrine is fundamentally racist. (e.g. Native Americans' darker skin and pretty much their entire culture being a punishment from God is part of the basic story of the Book of Mormon)

  • I live in the northern part of the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex. Liquor laws in my county and in many others near me are very similar to the ones there in Utah (you have to be a member of a private club to buy a drink, and you may not buy liquor by the bottle within the county lines). North Dallas has had zero difficulty attracting and maintaining high-tech industry. (Nortel, Samsung, used to be 3DFX, etc.) Therefore, while I agree with the Iomega CEO's thesis, I don't necessarily agree with his conclusion.

    Caveat: I expect the fact that these are county laws, and patchy ones at that, reduces their effect on attracting businesses. So maybe I'm talking out of me arse.

    Fun fact: The Unicard Club (the one anybody with a brain who wants to drink around here belongs to, which consists of practically every restaurant in the region) charges establishments several tens of thousands of dollars per year for them to be permitted to enroll people in the Unicard Club (which is attractive, because I don't then have to have a Bennigan's Club card, and a Humperdink's club card, and a Snuffer's club card, ad nauseam). The enrollment is usually free to the drinker. The profits, however, are enjoyed by the very Southern Baptists who lobbied for the passage and maintenance of the law. I love it when people can successfully con the State (or the county in this case) into acting as their financial heavy. I just wish I could figure out a way to do it myself.

    (Yes, I'm just joking. But it's more profitable than the damn lotto...)
  • Drug experiences may bring out different emotions that may positively affect their artistic work, but I really don't believe anyone who says they can eat a mess of acid and suddenly the quality of their code goes up and they can work out new alogrithms they couldn't figure out while straight.

    Oh, absolutely you can. Acid (and other psychedelic drugs) don't decrease your ability to focus and think about something like alcohol does, they force you to think about it in much more detail and in an entirely different way and notice things that you never noticed before. Oftentimes this is exactly what you need to work out an algorithm that you're having a problem with or figure out a new way to code up something.
    --
  • It all actually happened to us. I'm originally from Missoula, Montana, and am quite familiar with the North vs. South of Idaho. Ya kinda hafta drive through one or the other to go anywhere.

    As for waking us up for service, yep, actually happened. The first national motel chain booked us in the wrong city (3 hours away), and where we were was full-up. They were nice, and called around to find an opening. Where we stayed was something like $83 for the night, and almost double what we were planning on paying, but I wasn't up to driving 3 hours at that hour. I also remember driving past one of the campuses the next day, and seeing a huge banner on the front of one of the buildings that read, "APPROVED YOUNG WOMENS HOUSING". I had to ask someone what that meant.

    It was all very surreal. And too strange for me to make up.
  • Found a friend who'd lived in Utah, and he translated. Single-sex dorms. They apparently won't even let the fathers into the place. I'm not sure what they do in medical or other emergencies. ("Sorry, firewomen only.")
  • Sorry I'm not familiar with the correct terminology. My only real experience in structured religious settings is singing in the choir. That may sound strange (me being an atheist), but I'm actually pretty tolerant. The first time it happened, at a friend's Lutheran church, they needed more singers for the midnight mass on Christmas Eve. I thought, sure, why not. Never seen what goes on at one of those. Kinda fun, and a very nice small church that felt like a church (not the new, warehouse/basketball court churches that are popping up around town). I also got to sing at St. Mary's in San Francisco. Great sounding pipe organ (with the choir immediately below it), and a chap who knew how to use the foot pedals. Nice big building, too, so you could use that 5Hz pedal, and shake things up.

    The check out people were saying we could check out _after_. I finally said, "After what?" There was this hushed moment, and an, "oh, sorry," then a quick topic change.
  • by scotpurl (28825) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:10AM (#401700)
    I'm a non-drinker (never even been drunk), and the drinking laws would have nothing to do with me not seeking work in Utah. The overall backward, exclusionary, racist, and conservative attitudes that prevail there, and in southern Idaho, make it impossible for me to consider work there.

    An example: my wife (who's not white) and I are travelling through the area (on honeymoon, actually). At restaurants, she's stared at, and there's lots of behind-the-back gossip. When we stayed at a business-class hotel, the hotel came around at 7am, knocking on all the doors, to wake us for service. The front desk folks were positively horrified that we were checking out when we should have been at service (with lots of whispering and finger pointing by the other staff). When I went to fill the tank on our car, the P.A. system at the gas station was playing loud, bad, religious music.

    The whole message was, "You're not us, so go away." I'm wondering now how Utah is going to deal with the Olympics when they realize that many of the competitors are [gasp] foreigners and [gasp] not white.
  • Your car exhaust bothers me and is bad for my health. Ban it.

    Done. In NC you have to take your car in yearly for inspection. Part of that inspection is now emissions testing. I just wish they would apply the same standards to school buses and logging trucks.

    Your loud talking in public interupts my thoughts, which negatively effects my well-being. Stop it.

    Done. Lots of ordinances are in place to control noise levels.

    Your barbeque polutes the atmosphere and poses a serious health risk to others. Please refrain from cooking outdoors.

    Done. In most cities, if your barbeque gets to big the local fire department will make it smaller for you.

    When you wash your car in the driveway it drains polluted water into my aquifer. Stop washing your car.

    Done (sortof). Many controls are place on what can be included in cleaners.

    Your grocery bags are filling my landfill. Please find another way to transport your food.

    Done. Many grocery stores encourage the use of reusable cloth grocery bags and recycling of the plastic kind.

    What else could I help you with.

    I used to chew tobacco. I would tell smokers that I was more polite than they, since I didn't force others to share my pleasure; furthermore, if they didn't cease sharing their tobacco smoke with me I would kindly commence to share my tobacco juice with them.

  • Or, maybe, he was bitching because he could not get the senators drunk while bribing them, requireing him to put a lot more money in the pot of for the same amount of 'education' (as defined by M$).

    Or, maybe, he's bitching because he can't get recruits drunk before having them sign NDA/NCA with ridiculous terms.

    Or, he's just a whiney fraternity reject who wants to stay smashed, and he's pissed that the politicos in Utah don't worship at his feat like they did in Florida.

    Question: Why the hell would the senators be falling all over themselves to meet with this guy any more than any other constituent? If he has something to say, bring it up at a BUSINESS CONFERENCE where everyone can consider any proposals put forth. There is no valid public reason for politicos to meet with the richest merchants in secret back rooms. If Mister CEO has something important to say, say it in public, or write the senator a letter like the rest of us.

  • Unless you're a mormon, Utah itself and Salt Lake City in particular are very creepy places to be. How would you like to live in a place dominated by a kooky cult? Lee Reynolds
  • is that people who aren't Mormons have a hard time in Utah. Move there to take a job? Sorry, you'll have to join the Mormon church before your wife can find work too. That's what's wrong with Utah.

    I can't imagine why Albertson is exercised about Utah's silly liquor laws. True story: stuck in Salt Lake overnight by a broken airplane, check into a hotel, go into the bar, bartender says "You have to join our private club." I ask what that means. "It means you pay a dollar and I vouch for your character, then you're a member. What are you having?" It's just how they do things there.

    On the other hand, there are lots of fine single women in Utah who got fed up with the Mormon "obey thy husband" crap and are looking for a way out. Maybe Albertson should talk about that instead, if he wants to recruit young guys out of Silicon Valley.
  • Heck,
    I still work in the same town, but 3 years ago I took a 7% cut in pay to take a job that was more compatable with my lifestyle. We all make those kind of choices
  • Seat belt laws make sense for children, but not for adults. (some) Children are not yet mature individuals capable of making their own informed decisions.

    For adults, if they want to drive without seatbelts, let them. I don't think insurance companies should have to pay the full amount if they claim for any injuries that occured because they weren't wearing a seat belt, though.

    Incidentally, I heard that seat belt laws have actually increased the rate of accidents, since people drive faster because they feel safer. More accidents, but any given accident is less likely to cause serious injury. Whether it's a net positive or negative, I don't know.
  • by tbo (35008) on Monday February 26, 2001 @01:58PM (#401720) Journal
    I believe the Constitutional Amendment that repealed Prohibition also explicitly allowed individual states to pass laws restricting or banning the use of liquor. Given that, Utah is within Constitutional bounds to restrict alcohol (as long as they don't violate other parts of the Constitution).

    The moral issue is different. Simply because the majority votes for something does not make it right--that's the classic "tyranny of the majority". Imagine 10 men and 1 woman stranded on a desert island. A vote is held, and by an overwhelming 10-to-1 margin, it is decided that the men should be able to freely have sex with the woman. Democratic, but definitely wrong.

    Some rights are absolute, and cannot be taken away even by a democracy.

    If I, while of sound mind and by my own free will, choose to engage in an activity which is dangerous to myself but not to others, nobody has the right to stop me. If the activity is dangerous to others (i.e., drunk driving), then it's a different matter.
  • For Canada, you should probably mention the much higher taxes (relative to the US), and goverment sourced health care... I'll disagree with the cheese statement, though. "American Cheese" (otherwise known as little kid oil + milk cheese food product) doesn't count, but there's some really great cheese made in the US (better than the Canadian cheese I've had, most definitely).

    --
  • In Minnesota, any beer bought at a grocery store is 3.2% alcohol by volume. You have to head to a liquor store to get the full strength stuff. That, and liquor stores aren't open on Sundays (and close early on weekdays (8-10pm)). Makes it tough to get last minute supplies for a Superbowl party...

    --
  • by coyote-san (38515) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:07AM (#401726)
    It's not just the liquor laws that keep a lot of people far away from Utah. It's the mindset of a state that is appointed a 40-year-old virgin as porn queen. And they think WE don't have a social life!

    A virgin Mormon porn czar?? [Are they kidding?!]

    SALT LAKE CITY, UT -- Utah's new porn czar is an acknowledged virgin who rarely watches R-rated movies and has prosecuted a scant five pornography cases in her 15-year legal career. But Paula Houston asserts she knows smut when she sees it.

    Utah - a state that regularly appoints teetotallers to its alcohol-regulatory board - is the nation's pioneer in creating an "obscenity and pornography complaints ombudsman."

    Besides her experience as a city prosecutor, Houston, 40, unabashedly brings the values of her Mormon faith to an assignment that will include viewing XXX-rated movies, pornographic Internet sites and sexually explicit magazines. Houston's lack of personal sexual experience disqualifies her in the minds of some from passing judgment on just what constitutes pornography. Others say moral judgments are best made by those who are above reproach. For Houston, such arguments are entirely beside the point.

    "My personal life is irrelevant," says Houston. [What personal life?]

    From an article by Kevin Cantera & Michael Vigh, Salt Lake Tribune, 2/11/01

    P.S., the "lameness filter" is a piece of crap! Just because Netscape inserts leading whitespace in copied material is no reason to reject comments!

  • Hmm..interesting. That's the reason why I turned down job offers from California. I thought it was too sterile, but then again..I'm from Europe.
  • Is pretty important to my work selection. I live in NY, and though i wish to stay to work there and geography is of little concern, I try to find a job that interferes as little as possible with my schedule.

    I'm 2 years of college, and working 60 hour weeks is something that I don't yet think I need to do, especially since I don't have a family to support and expenses to cover. And really it is possible to find a good full time job that will be a 9 - 5 or 9 - 6 gig without sacriicing too much pay.

    I can totally see the point of view of people who don't want to take a job that would require them to move to a socially conservative area, regardless of the living costs.

    If you consider the average age of the people in the industry, it's a surprize to me that there are as many people employed in he field outside of large metropolitan areas as there are.

  • Do us a favor, and stay out of California. You won't be missed.

    I've got a newsflash for you. There is a whole lot of tobbacco stench in the non-smoking section of restaurants that allow smoking anywhere in the room. You just can't tell, because your addiction has damaged your sense of smell.

    As for "respecting your needs", when I smell your smoke, you are committing an attack on my person with a toxic substance. If you want respect, pick a vice that doesn't affect the people around you.

    -jcr
  • Well, speaking as a hard-line Libertarian, I'd say that it's the prerogative of an employer to hire people on the basis of any irrational criterion that they'd care to apply.

    I'd also point out that the rampant discrimination of which you speak is its own punishment. There's a reason why the silicon valley is the center of the universe for our industry, and a big part of it is that around here, it's your skills that matter, not who you know.

    -jcr
  • I also remember driving past one of the campuses the next day, and seeing a huge banner on the front of one of the buildings that read, "APPROVED YOUNG WOMENS HOUSING". I had to ask someone what that meant.

    What does it mean, just out of curiousity?

    ---

  • There's no point in getting fired up about Utah. That's just a specific case illustrating a more general issue. The real issue here is that people have career preferences, location preferences, social preferences, and so forth. Anytime you move to take a new job, you need to weigh all these factors. Everyone does this, whether consciously or not.

    To the extent that you are a company located in an area where people do not want to live (for whatever reason), you are going to have some difficulty recruiting. I once worked for a big company in a small town, and the smallness of the town and the corresponding lack of other alternatives presented a real problem for recruiters. They just had to deal with it by finding people like me who like small towns. Likewise, some people like warm weather, and tend to gravitate towards Miami and other places south. I like winter, so here I am up north on the shore of Lake Superior.

    Every time I've moved to take a new job, it's been a matter of finding a balance. If I didn't like the location very much, was the job itself good enough to outweigh my location preference? Was the job so-so, but the location really good? Did the job pay well enough that I could travel more in order to compensate for a suboptimal location? In the end, it's important to have a wholistic understanding of your own goals and desires and how they play off against each other.
  • Or to take the Steve Martin line:
    Smoker: Excuse me, do you mind if I smoke this?

    Non-smoker: Not at all. Do you mind if I fart?

    Some things just plain transcend law, and are a matter of decency and courtesy. Whatever you want to do in your own space is fine, but I'd rather you didn't try to share your lung cancer with me, thanks. I've got enough to deal with without having your damn tumors to think about...




  • It's not so much location for me as it is the hours...

    I'm pushing 40, I've got a wife and kids. I've probably shot several interviews by asking if the employees are allowed to have a life.

    I don't mind working the occasional 50/60 hour week. Everyone understands crunch time. But if it's a way of life, then there's something seriously wrong with the company.
  • It ain't just San Jose. Many moons ago (about 15 years), I pulled graveyard shifts in a 7-11 in L.A.

    The ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control Board) had set a statewide alcohol curfew from 2AM to 6AM.

    AFAIK, that law is still in effect, so 1AM is getting near closing time.
  • There are many more reasons for techies to not move to Utah than just "can't have a beer with dinner".

    The LDS church has been behind some of the most vicious, hateful, dehumanizing legislative attacks on gay/lesbians, and has been actively promoting legislation to strip gays/lesbians of what few protections we have. Any attempt to enact legislation for something as basic as "you can't fire me just because I'm gay" or "a gay family should have equal status as a heterosexual childless family" is met with (literally) millions of LDS dollars portraying gays as evil incarnate. And given that in Utah most of their law makers and law enforcers are LDS...

    I am gay. I am not a Christian. If I moved to Utah, and someone vandalized my car or assaulted me in a supermarket parking lot, I have no faith that I would be afforded police protection, or that a jury would convict the person responsible. Why on earth would I want to move to a place where I would be demonized? Why on earth would I want to associate with coworkers (or for that matter, anyone) who believe me to be the son of Satan?

    Here in the tech industry in Silicon valley, no employer can afford to don the pointed white hood. Tech workers, straight and gay alike, will not put up with racism, sexism, or homophobia. Even if there were no legal recourse, the fact that an offending company would instantly lose its best and brightest (as well as their rank and file) ensures decent behavior. There is no such social environment in place in Utah.

    (Credit where credit is due: I worked at Borland at the time that Novell bought out the Quattro Pro for Windows product line. When Novell took over that division, they didn't mess with the corporate culture, at least not while I was there. That was the only employer that didn't balk at me displaying my Gay Pride flag right next to my "I'm the NRA and I vote" poster. Most employers would be uncomfortable with either or both of those, but the QPW group just didn't care.)
  • We're allowed to have social lives? Awright, I'm trying that....


    --Brogdon
  • That's why I enjoy living in the City I live in too -- we have no smoking in restaurants unless they're seperately ventilated. Its wonderful for both parties. The restaurant owners complained, of course, about having to build the ventilation systems ...
  • People who bring up such moral arguments fail to consider the possibility that morality is sometimes situational. In the case where the island is large and the people may never be rescued, all having sex with the women (say, each gets a year ;-) gives a larger gene pool for reproduction, should they desire to continue as a people.

    Tyrany of the majority does indeed happen, and the fact that one person doesn't like something should usually be respected. In this case, you're missing the cases where that minority finds each other, gets together and becomes a micro-majority (a majority within their community) and passes laws like the above.
  • Actually, it is how democracy works -- and that's why the Constitution was created. They realised that a democracy would cause forms of oppression and decided to lay some things down permenantly. However, you missed the direction of my comment in your "such as church/state allegiances"; it isn't 'the church' which is passing this law in conjunction with the state. In fact, with the current state of Christian organisations (leaving out Muslim, etc.), its very hard to say that something is a church/state issue unless it were clearly requested of government by a Bishop of the Catholic Church or a ranking presbyter of the AoG.

    Church/State union comments need to be kept in context of how Europe used to (and still does?) be very much run by the Church and the Kings / statesmen together. In that context, a large number of Christians / Muslims / etc. voting against drinking does not make for a violation of this part of the constitution.

    What form of suffering, btw, are you refering to in the case that you aren't able to have the social life you want if you move to Utah? What forces you to live there and be subject to these rules?
  • Without getting into another poster's comment that drinking laws have other than religious reasons (drunk driving and public drunkenness are already illegal in most parts of the USA and Canada), I'd like to know what kind of constitutional or legal minority is formed by those wishing to drink against the laws in Utah? Like the minority who wish to drink and drive in my home town? Or the minority who wish to have sex with minors? Or ...

    ... when do you decide that moral issues become more important than personal freedoms? Rape is illegal because of morality and restricts freedoms, ditto for murder.
  • My wife works in a shelter for abused women as well as a group home for mentally disabled adults.

    Try asking any of those people about drinking.

    --
    For those who don't deduce well, most women are beaten by drunk husbands and many mentally ill people are so because their mothers drank while pregnant, which, btw, is a 'freedom'.
  • "Set back America 50 years" -- in what way? In many ways, America is no better off than it was 50 years ago. We have some good new laws, and some poor ones. Which would you prefer to repeal and which would you keep? Not all change is progress.
  • Why?

    Should all tax-relieved organisations have their powers curtailed? Would it be different if this church organisation paid taxes? Would it be different if the park were run by, say, a group of wiccans who registered a religious charitible organisation to support their beliefs about nature?

    Why is it that non-religious groups should have specific freedoms that religious groups should not? Or are you just complaining because religious beliefs bother you? In that case, you're trying to curtail Utah's state rights for no good reason.
  • Just to be the devil's advocate (or the church's) -- church/state doesn't come into this much. If the voters happen to be church-folk who don't want drinking, that's the way a democracy works. If the majority did want drinking, the voting would work things out for them. One of the nice things about 'bible belts' or 'tech belts' if you will, is that people of a given persuation can enjoy each others' views together (the non-drinkers together, the tech-heads together). One of the problems is that you end up with a severed sense of a "United" country.
  • As a long-time smoker, I can honestly say that there is nothing that bothers me more than having some right-wing tree hugger complain about my "second-hand smoke".

    Tree hugger? Trees are not the problem. It's the toxic stink that you emit when you exhale the filthy air that you breathe from the burning end of your dead tobacco stick. Kill yourself if you want to, but do it in your own home -- not in a public [family] restaraunt.

    So, while YOU, personally, might not like smoke, there are others of us who CHOOSE to smoke and you should have the courtesy to respect their needs as well.

    There are many freedoms we have and enjoy, that are not appropriate in a public setting. Smoking (remember the stink and the carcinogen) is one of them. You absolutely should have the freedom to smoke, but those who choose not to smoke should have the freedom of clean air -- without having to rely on a courtesy that not every smoker provides.

  • On one hand, I know several people here in the Denver-metro area that would love to move (back) to the SLC area. Of course, their religious preferences probably influence that, but that's a quality of life decisions they have made. Add that to the decision that they don't want to put up with the explosive growth, housing costs, and traffic congestion that Colorado is seeing, and you can understand where they are coming from.

    On the other hand, I would never live in SLC, or in Texas, simply because the quality of life isn't the same as what I want. I want to be near the Rocky Mountains, have snow without ice-storms, and warm summers without 100+ degrees of heat.

    And companies even are concerned about quality of life... For example, the company I'm at now has a headquarters in Brisbane, Australia, and picked Boulder, Colorado for the US office, simply because the quality of life was similar to that in Brisbane. For years the company didn't even have a major client in the same city, but the Boulder atmosphere was what the company wanted, and what they believed would be attractive to employees.

    Everybody is concerned with quality of life, but how you define quality of life will likely be completely different from how other people define it.

    IMHO, if companies don't like the atmosphere of the SLC area, why are they remaining there? If you can't make employees come to where you are, maybe you should move to where employeers are.
  • Um, maybe in the movies? Sam Neill had Helen Hunt hot to have his kids in "Jurassic Park". Jeff Goldblum had Geena Davis so fond of him she still cried over him croaking after he digested part of her boss in "The Fly". There was that hax0r-chick in "Hackers" that was easy on the eyes.

    In real life I have to face up to the fact that if I wanted women falling all over me -- besides getting a hair transplant and dropping 75 pounds -- chances are good I would choose a career that would allow me to work away from a computer, in a more social setting.

    Maybe I just run in the wrong circles but I have yet to meet a woman who is interested in a man due to the actual size of his hard drive:

    "320 GB RAID -- come HERE big boy."

    "Can you tell me about routing tables again? That just makes me so hot."

    "I was out with this guy, and I thought he was cute, and then he took me home and showed me his iMac, and I was like, eewwww ..."

    Plastic surgeon -- now there's the "babe motherlode" career. Computer jockey? Well ...

  • tell me about it. it works on a more local scale too.

    i work in Toronto now, and while i'd much rather work right downtown (where i live) my company's location is still an acceptable distance slightly outside of downtown. when the lease is up on this building (soon), they're going to move to buttfuck nowhere (aka Thornhill) in the suburbs. why? because it's "cheaper."

    yeah, cheaper maybe, but i've already told them i'm leaving if they move out there (and i'm not the only one). how many future employees are they going to lose because they're out in the middle of nowhere? chosing a location based only on rental costs is very short-sighted.

    - j
  • Their liquor laws are a symptom of a larger problem.

    I avoid Utah not specifically because of their unusual liquor laws, but because of the attitude of the LDS Church, which has undue influence on the government of the state.

    If you are not a mormon, you are are second-class citizen in Utah. It's like being a black person in a Southern state, there's a undercurrent of disrespect towards non-mormons in large groups of the Utah population, especially in SLC.

    Aside from unavoidable stopovers on the way to Vegas, I've visited Utah, including driving through SLC with a short stop overnight, and saw no reason (other than the scenery) to ever return.

  • by jmv (93421)
    ...no offense, but that's why I don't want to work in the US, although I could easily have a x2 on my net salary. I think my values are sufficently different from there to significantly decrease my quality of life) and that's the main reason I choose to stay in Canada.
  • I'm certain that LDS folks would not approve of how I live my life, and I'm not confident of their ability to keep their noses out of it.

    I agree. Different states/regions are going to have different cultures. I live in NYC. I doubt the majority of residents of Utah would enjoy living here, and I certainly would not like living in Utah.

    I think the question posed is when does culture of a region become such that a large number of prospective employees (in this case techies) not want to live there.
  • Question is, we know that drugs and the artistic professions go hand in hand - what about drugs and the rational, engineering professions like Software Engineering?

    I completely disagree that software engineering is not an artistic profession. There may be programmers out there who have very little chance to express their creativity, but at the heart of most developers, I believe that there is the urge to create and express themselves through code.

    Software engineering may have more "rules" than many other artforms, but there are many recognized forms of art that also have strict rules. Haiku's have a defined sylabic layout, musicians have a defined set of chords that they use and Ballerinas have specific moves that they are taught early on in their education. Creating a program may be limited by the language you are forced to use to create it, or the end goal of its functionality, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of creativity in the process of creating it.

    The only difference I see is that the world has found a practical use for the artistic expression of programmers. I would liken it to the police sketch artist...an artist being used to accomplish a practical goal. If that same sketch artist draws or paints outside of work, no one would hesitate to call him an artist (even though some might not call his police sketches art). How many of you have written programs outside of work just because you felt like it? Did you write them simply because you felt that the world needed them in some way, or was it partly because you enjoyed the process of creating them?
    <$0.02>
  • I really hate these religious types ... most western religions aren't about knowing right by wrong in your own life, but being able to point it in others lifes ... here in california, the only religious types are the "I fucked up my life so bad, so I found god" type ...

    A few years ago my girlfriends sister was a devout mormon living in the midwest, during her teen years, every mormon she went out with tried to take advantadge of her ... her mother actually forbade her from dating mormons! Which of course prompted her pastor to tell her she was going to hell ...

    As for these laws, No one wants to become a mormon-by-proxy.

  • I'm gonna have to disagree here bob, Utah does not have the right to curtail minorities rights by passing laws that are relgious in nature. Its in the constitution bro :) ... the constitution wasn't written to protect the rights of the majority, the majority always takes care of itself. The seperation of church and state in the constitution was written to protect those in the minority.
  • by tokengeekgrrl (105602) on Monday February 26, 2001 @09:47AM (#401837)
    Non-smoking laws were passed in California to protect restaurant employees, not customers. Restaurant waitstaff do end up breathing in an ENORMOUS amount of second-hand smoke on the job and it was determined that they are entitled to a safe and healthy workplace just as much as anyone who works in a non-smoking office is.

    That said, I grew up on east coast and was always used to being in smoky bars and restaurants and at the time, it never really phased me even though I don't smoke. After having lived in CA for a while with the non-smoking laws, I have found that not only do I enjoy restaurants more, but ALL of my smoking friends do as well! They have no problems with stepping outside to keep the restaurant air clear. Of course, weather is much more mild in CA so stepping outside for a smoke is not a big deal.

    - tokengeekgrrl

  • by pallex (126468) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:22AM (#401877)
    A mate of mine has a sign in his office:

    I enjoy sex as much as you enjoy smoking but i dont fuck on your desk so please dont smoke in my office.

    I think that about sums it up.
  • by www.sorehands.com (142825) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:00AM (#401901) Homepage
    Is Albertson trying to imply that drinking is a requirement of a social life? Or that people who drink are more creative?

    WordPerfect was in Utah for a long time. What about Novell?? Caldera???

  • by Nidhogg (161640) <shr DOT thanatos AT gmail DOT com> on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:05AM (#401926) Journal
    My friend I think you place too much faith in our local legislature.

    Indiana has had a law (ever since I can remember) that no alcohol of any sort will be sold from a store on Sunday.

    BUT (and this is the part that kills me) a few years they modified that law to where you could go to a restaurant and buy it to drink while you're sitting there.

    So in effect you can't buy it, take it home and drink safely. No no. If you want to drink on Sunday you have to go OUT and do it then drive home.

    Way to support those drunk driving laws guys. Thanks buckets.

    To stay on topic though.. I think it has a mild effect but not to the point this guy says. If the job has sufficient compensations (in your opinion) then these annoyances can be overcome.

  • by SquadBoy (167263) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:09AM (#401935) Homepage Journal
    and I'm a fairly active Mormon (in that I go to church, mostly because my wife thinks it is a good idea) I should fit right in in Utah but right now I'm very involved in trying to move to the Portland Oregon area (btw if you need a good Unix/GNU/Linux systems guy and are in that area send me a mail) Why? Becuase Utah has many problems above and beyond drinking laws. First I have no idea where this myth that Utah has a low cost of living came from but it is not true. Also taxes tend to be very high and wages much lower than other spots that have the same cost of living. And then there are the Mormons. In other places in the country that I have lived I have really liked many of my fellow Mormons and in fact enjoyed going to chruch. Here in Utah most of them tend to be aholes. In short people not coming to Utah has nothing to do with liquor laws but more to do with the fact that on many other levels it sucks.
  • by John Jorsett (171560) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:39AM (#401939)
    My Utah experience: I went to Provo to visit my girlfriend's daughter and son-in-law, who are Mormons. One night after visiting with them, we decided to get a bottle of wine to take back to our hotel room. It took us 45 minutes to locate the state-run package store situated in a dingy part of town. It looked like a run-down methadone clinic, with bars on the windows, burned-out neon sighs, and a trash-strewn parking lot. We got the bottle of wine from their lousy selection and wanted to get a corkscrew. No gots. At a liquor store. So we go to a large supermarket and ask one of the 18-year-old stockboys where to find a corkscrew. He didn't know what a corkscrew was. Finally had to track down the manager to ask, and he ultimately led us to where they were. Moral: if you're going to drink in Utah, have it shipped in from elsewhere so that you don't have to deal with the locals.
  • by sjbe (173966) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:33AM (#401942)
    I work for a large fortune 200 manufacturing company. One of the problems we face is precisely due to the location of our facilities.

    It's a common practice in manufacturing to locate facilities in very rural areas. This has several benefits. Land is cheap, labor is cheap, unions tend to leave you alone, by being the biggest employer in a small town you get a lot of influence over local regulations, you tend to get a lot of tax breaks, and a few other things. But it also has some drawbacks and one of the biggest is in getting technically skilled workers to work in very rural areas.

    People who are skilled with technology and have the corresponding education to go with it, tend not to want to live out in the middle of nowhere. Tech workers tend to be young, educated, and like the lifestyle afforded by living in a more urban (or suburban) area. Not to say there aren't exceptions but as a rule this is very often true. Since technology is daily becoming a bigger part of manufacturing, this is daily becoming a bigger problem. People like to be surrounded by people who want a similar lifestyle to their own.

    Lifestyle is important and there is a reason more people live in cities than in the country. People like it that way. If Utah has problems attracting tech workers, you can be quite sure lifestyle has at least something to do with why. I've been to Austin and San Francisco. I understand why those areas might appeal to young tech workers and why Utah might not be at the top of their lists of places to live.

  • by Skidx (182277) on Monday February 26, 2001 @11:26AM (#401963) Homepage
    Before I move anywhere I always like to check out the prices, quality, and quantity of the pot in the area.
  • by mizhi (186984) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:47AM (#401964) Homepage
    I am a geek and have a social life... why, for valentine's day, I bought my gf some new ram and we went to the local computer shack here to browse the hardware selection. On normal days, we walk hand-in-hand looking at eachother's palm(pilots)... We go out quite a bit... to the local cybercafe so we can surf the net in a different atmosphere.

    ok. I'm getting ridiculous--nevermind.
  • by CritterNYC (190163) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:29AM (#401967) Homepage
    This is just another example of blue laws interfering with people's (and business') lives. Laws that attempt to dictate morality have been on the books for years and are the result of times when the church had more control than it should have.

    These laws place ridiculous restrictions on:
    • Business Hours (eg: it is illegal to be open on sunday in one NJ county unless you sell food)
    • Alcohol (eg: no alcohol on sundays, or after 8pm, or before noon, or on a full moon)
    • Free Speech (eg: anything judged pornographic and the whole "i know it when i see it" camp)
    • Physical Activities (you'd be surprised how many states make it illegal to place certain parts of yourself in certain parts of your significant other or the fact that in some states it is actually illegal to live together without being married)
    These laws never had a time or a place, they were just forced upon us by the "moral majority"... that, when you get down to it, isn't very moral at all.
  • by sulli (195030) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:19AM (#401979) Journal
    I live and work in San Francisco, but my colleagues are in New Jersey (I work for a big telecom company you might have heard of). I'm sure that if I moved to NJ I'd advance more quickly in the organization and save more money to buy a nice big house out in the country ... but I insist on living in the city and so have stayed here. I initially took this job for quality of life reasons, having previously commuted to San Jose (which really, really sucks). So lifestyle made a huge difference in my experience.

    For me it wasn't so much the nightlife as the general convenience and fun of living in SF. But the rule still applies - I like shopping on Haight St., others like good nightlife. Employers who locate in the middle of nowhere ignore these factors at their peril.

  • by moze14 (199802) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:04AM (#401983) Homepage
    I think that the point of the article is that the drinking laws are a highly visible component of life in Utah to outsiders (of which I am one). The point is that even if drinking is not a requirement of a social life, outsiders have to wonder what other ways the Mormons will stifle personal freedom for non-believers.
  • by atrowe (209484) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:10AM (#401993)
    I take offense to your post.

    As a long-time smoker, I can honestly say that there is nothing that bothers me more than having some right-wing tree hugger complain about my "second-hand smoke".

    Every restaurant I have ever entered in the past 10 years (with the exception of a few smaller bars) has established both a smoking section and a non-smoking section. Maybe I should explain the concept of these sections to you, since you obviously have some problems understanding. Smoking section=People who smoke. Non-Smoking Section=People who don't like smoke.

    What exactly is the problem here?

    As a smoker, I make a conscious effort to keep my smoke away from those who choose not to smoke. This means that when I am in the presence of a non-smoker I will excuse myself and go outside to smoke. I also try to stay away from busy doorways and entrances when smoking outside to allow passerbys to have the benefit of clean air. By banning ALL smoking in restaurants, California has benefited non-smokers, but is causing great inconvenience and discrimination against smokers.

    So, while YOU, personally, might not like smoke, there are others of us who CHOOSE to smoke and you should have the courtesy to respect their needs as well.

  • by Auckerman (223266) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:04AM (#402006)
    In other news, the CEO of Iomega, the company that makes those unreliable drives that are warrentied till "the end of their life", bitched today that he could not get drunk while bribing senators to save his companies ass.
  • First off, Bruce: do you ever go outside? Have you not, perhaps, noticed, that Utah really is first rate for outdoor recreation activities? If you're into clubbing, no, this is not the place to come, but there are other sorts of recreation. And some of it here in Utah is first rate. Zion's nat'l park. Arches. Uintah national forest. To say nothing of skiing and snowboarding.

    Second: have you ever tried to get alcohol in Utah? Getting into one of the "private clubs for members" where drinks are served is pretty easy. Grabbing a six pack is even easier.

    Third: I do consider my social life when I apply for a job. Mostly, though, I look for flexibility in terms of schedule and vacation and weekly hours no greater than 40. That's what social life means to me: I get time off. My job is NOT my life. Are you doing that? Try offering a month of vacation to your engineers and tell them they only occasionally will have to work overtime. You'll probably get a decent response.

    Fourth: Are you aware that there's a fairly large talent pool endemic to Utah? There's 3 universities here with student bases of over 20,000 and more than decent engineering schools. Some of these people want to leave (me), but I'd expect that many of them wouldn't mind staying.

    Gripe, gripe, gripe. Engineering is a high-demand profession at the moment. Attracting good talent is hard. Find the strengths of the place you're located at, make your corp a happy place to work for, and get over it. Hell, serve drinks at work, if it's that important to you.

    --
  • by OlympicSponsor (236309) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:02AM (#402030)
    "Do You Consider Your Social Life When You Choose A Career?"

    I thought this was going to be a question about " marketers get the babes" vs "bankers have more meaningful relationships".

    Turns out you REALLY mean to write "Do You Consider Your Social Life When You Choose A Location?" Which, of course, is totally unrelated to computers, technology or anything resembling "News for Nerds".
    --
    Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
  • by Bonker (243350) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:08AM (#402045)
    My wife used to work at a Walmart here in the Texas panhandle. For several months, she did the overnight shift.

    Now, the way Texas's blue laws work, you cannot buy alcohol period after 2 A.M. After 12 A.M. you can only buy from a bar, and after 9 P.M. you cannot buy from liquor stores. This means no hard alcohol for mixers after 9 and 24 stores like Walmart and Albertsons have to refuse alcohol purchases after midnight and until noon on Sundays. This *really* makes sense in a state where the biggest pastime is sitting around the tube watching football all day sunday with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other.

    As you can imagine, the Mrs. got some very angry customers who couldn't buy alcohol when they wanted to.

    One day, a former Texas Representitive walked into the store at 4 A.M. Sunday morning. He picked up several bottles of wine, and a couple nice cases of beer. He was getting ready for an all day family get together, see?

    So when my wife told him that no, he could *not* buy the booze, he slapped himself on the forehead and said, "I just had to sign on that renewal bill, didn't I?"

    Most legislation is passed by people who aren't even paying attention to what they're doing.
  • by rbruels (253523) on Monday February 26, 2001 @08:51AM (#402073) Homepage
    As we like to say here at CU, the engineers may only take up 10% of the population, but we drink 50% of the beer.

    In my opinion, sure, things like alcohol laws and access to social activities (both of which are in short or just nasty supply in Utah) are very important to where I'd move for a job. When I'm done coding some large project for Iomega, I'm going to want to go out and ingest one or eight strong drinks to forget the workplace for a little while. Not only that, but these laws are indictive of other things such as the lines between church and state (and let's face it, when your state is definitely Mormon in the majority, these lines will be very blurred), government control, fellow citizen's attitudes, et cetera.

    Know what I'd recommend? Head east about six hours to the beautiful state of Colorado. We are the microbrew capital of America (i.e., no "Captain Bastard's"-brand beer like in Utah -- no kidding), have an exponentially increasing tech corridor within short drives to the mountains, and dammit, it's FUN out here (also, per the concerns of this person [slashdot.org], it's GREAT here. ;)

    Utah is great to an extent, and I'll certainly head out there once a year to go backpacking, but living there? Nah. Iomega, move your operations out here and you'll get your engineers. We are also one of the more laid-back states, that's for sure. Stay out of Colorado Springs (home of Focus on the Family, which otherwise tarnishes a great city and my former hometown) and your religious, social, and living views won't matter much more than an iota, neither will anyone else's.

    Ryan

"Hey Ivan, check your six." -- Sidewinder missile jacket patch, showing a Sidewinder driving up the tail of a Russian Su-27

Working...