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Hardware

Fujitsu SPARC64-GP vs. Sun UltraSPARC II? 19

Posted by Cliff from the comparing-the-heavy-hitters dept.
AtariDatacenter asks: "I've noticed that Fujitsu is starting to market their Primepower line of Sun compatible servers, based on the SPARC64-GP processor. Their Primepower 2000, with 128 processors running at 563mhz, would seem to be a killer of the Sun E10000, which is based on the UltraSPARC II processor. And their server beats the Sun E10k in the top ten TPC-C performance results for non-clustered systems. What do Slashdot readers have to say about the Primepower line of servers?"
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Fujitsu SPARC64-GP vs Sun UltraSPARC II? More

Fujitsu SPARC64-GP vs Sun UltraSPARC II?

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  • I assume this is what became of HAL Computer Systems [hal.com]? Their SPARC64 roadmap [hal.com] looks out of date.
  • Kill me. I didn't click on the links in the article, one of which points to HAL. I'm going to bed now.
  • Sorry--it sounds impressive that Fujitsu's hardware won in some TPC-C benchmark, but I've always stood by the saying that there's 3 kinds of lies: "lies, damn lies, and benchmarks." What you need are some numbers from a large real-live application. Something that uses a large database, say Oracle, with several parallel transactions.
  • Bizarre Troll? Not at all. TPC-C is a synthetic benchmark that's almost 9 years old. It even predates the web (outside CERN at least)! It involves only 5 concurrent transactions. How many database applications behind a web server can survive with only 5 concurrent transactions now a days? Sun's Enterprise 10000 system has up to 64 processors. How can you gage that with a 5 || transaction benchmark?

    I do admit that TPC-C is better than nothing. It's better than Towers of Hanoi or computing primes or timing straight disk I/O.

  • Does anyone know about the Fujitsu J822s SuperServer? I inherited one with DRS/NX (ICL Unix) installed but I would like to run Linux or a *BSD on it. However, I also don't want to ruin the current installation by blindly experimenting.


    OpenSourcerers [opensourcerers.com]
  • Their Primepower 2000, with 128 processors running at 563mhz, would seem to be a killer of the Sun E10000

    You might think that, but you'd probably be wrong. In order to make use of 128 CPUs, they need an OS suitable for the purpose. It's a fair bet that Sun haven't put huge amounts of resources into optimizing Solaris for more than 64 CPUs (sure, they're bound to have played with it in the labs, but it's unlikely to be production ready). Unless you can get something that approximates linear scalability, those extra 64 CPUs are going to be sitting around doing nothing. All this really lets you do is have more domains on a single physical box than an E10K will give you. If they price it right, that alone may make it a success in the crowded machine rooms of the corporate world, but it's not the wonder that it first appears to be. If you want an OS that supports a single OS image across more than 64 CPUs, you can try SGI or DG.

    Disclaimer: the above assumes that they're running Solaris, based on the claims of 100% Sun compatibility and 12000 applications that they make on their web site. I guess they could be running a version of SINIX or Reliant Unix that they've optimized for large numbers of processors.

  • It's nice being a big SUN account I get to see all the crab posted and see just how much people are guessing.

    1. Solaris 8 will run with upto 1000x processors. Yes it's built in, no special kernel. No they don't make a box that big, and yes it's type of clustering. Read the Docs, 8 has been tested on boxes with over 100cpus. Where are those boxes? they are going to be announced March 21. E10K replacement will house upto 112 cpus.

    2. I've talked to fujitsu, and they want our business. But even they don't sell the 128 box to be used as one 128 way system. They want you to domain the thing into smaller systems.

    3. yeah DG, I've seen some good stuff about them lately. Ever run NUMA? It scales like crap compared to an SMP for normal non scientific use. I'm talking database and application server. SGI, I respect them, but if a company lived past their prime, it's SGI.

    4. Fujitsu's manufacturing is in Japan. The sales rep didn't even have any loaners. The boxes are built in japan, and flown to US, and then tested in Calif. So you think you'll get a system in a timely manner?

    I'm all for competition, and I think it's good, but there's a lot of stuff that Sun is coming out with that will blow your mind. Yeah they have problems. Whatelse you going to run for large environments? Linux get real.

  • One thing I can honestly say about Fujitsu, they don't play stupid "100% Sun" games like Sun does -- E.g.,

    My local (Orlando, FL) Sun sales/support office is right across the hallway from my company (yes, a whole 20 feet!). I made the grave mistake of going over and asking for a SunSolve CD once. They started asking me for Host IDs, and said that since I had clones (alongside separate, 100% Sun hardware) in the same office, they could not give me one. And what really ticked me in the end was the sales rep trying to sell me a new box! Geez, I just wanted to ask for a SunSolve CD so I would have to avoid downloading a lot of the patches (our Internet bandwidth was limited at the time) and I got my head bit off! Imagine if I really had an issue?!

    Fujitsu sells some excellent, re-designed SPARC modules and boxes. In fact, I would argue that if eBay would have gone Fujitsu instead of true Sun, they probably wouldn't have had their "oopses" awhile back with Sun's inadequate airflow causing the ECC cache memories to fail. Their systems are of much better designs, industrial quality and usually cheaper in the end. And, again, their support doesn't bog you down with "100% Fujitsu" questions -- they get right to the problem and help you resolve it.

    As such, I'll almost always buy Fujitsu over Sun. And they can (and did) quote me on it (see page 2). [fujitsu-technology.com] Yes, I also support and use x86/Linux, and we are slowly moving away from Solaris as more and more EDA tools are ported to it, but I still need to buy SPARCs on occassion. Fujitsu will continue to get the bill for SPARC.

    -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith

  • DG (Data General) doesn't much matter any more anyway. Since EMC bought them out, they have elected to move away from the OS field and focus on hardware. Therfore, no more DG/UX. They are doing bug fixes and the like still, but they have no intention of going past the current 4.20 interation.
    Speaking as a DG/UX admin with a MAJOR app at a big telco, I have to say I like the current crop (AV25000) of servers. The AV20k melted down on us during the testing phase(speaking of scale issues) and the 5900's we had just weren't juicy enuff (4x200 PPro vs AV25k's 8x550 P3). We went from 100% utilized boxen to a load == 1 machine set. Quite a difference, really. Of course, the .5TB setup in 2x28 disksets (2x14x2clariions) that are RAID 1/0 + plaid striping, are the real monsters of this server. I tell you, there's nothing like doing an 'cat /etc/passwd" in single user and seeing all disk lights hit "simultaneously". Ooooh baby.
  • I'm actually rather disappointed at the discussion so far. I figured I'd see something a little more lively than this. Here's part of what I know:

    The SPARC64-GP is significantly faster than the UltraSPARC II at the same clock rates. Yes, the particular web site referencing the SPARC64-GP is old, but the architectual improvements over the USII are the same, and the clock rates have increased.

    Of course, the answer is that "UltraSPARC III" is just around the corner. But Fujitsu isn't standing still, and is working on processors and platforms of their own. What I *hope* we're looking at is an Intel/AMD leapfrog kind of competition where we've got some real competition on performance and price.

    One area that I've been told that Fujitsu isn't all that hot on (but they are working on the issue) is support/service. They're not quite at the helpdesk level. But I know locally that AMDAHL has been training people to support their new Sun hardware.

    Personally, I invited Fujitsu to give our site a presentation next week. I'm anxious to see what kind of things they have to offer. Its apparent that they CURRENTLY have something that can compete with the Sun line in price and performance... from the E220 to the E10k level. I have heard good things about the stability of the solutions that they offer.

    I think it is important that Fujitsu starts marketing themselves to Sun shops and giving them an idea of where they are going. I want to see the concentrating on the support side harder. I think I'd be a little scared to run a 64-way box (with domains) connected to EMC via Jaycor fiber cards, and running an Oracle database. If they had a hardcore service division, I wouldn't be so scared.
  • In the end the E10K is just a toy... Yes, its fast, but I've not heard of a single one that hasn't been split up into domains... Why do you think the V-class was such a failure? Because barely anyone needs a unix system of that size... Performance? cluster... reliability? cluster or mainframe...
    and if you anyway go plan on carving up domains, go with a n-class or a couple of 5500s - cheaper and faster...
  • You're saying exactly what I did - all the E10ks out there are split into domains! And if you anyway plan on doing that, go with a rack full of smaller systems - same performance, same upgradability and cheaper...
    (and btw, if you tell others to check facts, please check your reading skills first :)
  • Warning; I work for CRA's corporate overlord, CIT
    Danger, Will Robinson! Plug! Plug! Plug!


    Yeah, CRA is pretty good. In the same vein is ourTRS division [trsonesource.com].
  • Yes, but their Ultra 3 is over a year late now, and by the time it is released, it won't even be able to match up with the IBM p-series (RS/6000s) and HP SuperDome in terms of TPC-C, and they still don't have anything coming close to a mainframe (in terms of high availability and performance). Especially with the bad press for the memory corruption problems this past year, they aren't looking good. It's too bad, too - the SPARC architecture is some really great stuff.
  • Actually, what was Glaxo Wellcome are using these to run SAP (eugh) worldwide.
  • Considering they have been in it for at least 20 years, I'd say awhile. They are migrating away from the S/390 machines to Sun compatible machines.
  • Since the group which developed the E10k has been purchased by Sun, they have been working on their next generation of the *fire systems, which will be remarkably faster than the 10k. That combined with the new Ultra 3 and 4 processors will probably take the title back within about 6 months
  • Heck yeah!!
    I would get the Sun though, because who know how long Fujitsu will stick around in the server market?
  • The real story (as I heard it anyway) on the Ebay/SUN issue was that it was not SUN's fault. A buddy of mine who worked at Exodus (where the melt down happened) told me that after Ebay claimed SUNs hardware failed, SUN sent out an investigation team. Turns out that Ebay had installed a rack of disk arrays in the corner of the co-lo center and did NOT put the vented raised floor tile in to allow the array proper ventilation. Thus, all the disks melted down. Ebay later apologized to SUN, but not publicly (or as publicly as they accused them) and there's still a lot of "bad blood" between the two.

    As for Fujitsu, I am reminded of the time that Fujitsu called me wanting to convince me to go with Fujitsu switches/routers. My comment "When you think routers, you think Fujitsu?!" That was the end of the call. SUN, like Cisco, has problems, most big companies do. But there are some things you DON'T do when building a company, one is buy one-off equipment. If you have issues with the SUNs prices or service, check out off-lease resellers such as CRA [cit.com] where you can get slightly used SUN, Cisco, Compaq, etc. equipment at 40%-80% of list. They're actually much more knowledgable and easier to work with than SUN.
    --
    He had come like a thief in the night,

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