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Forced Into Spamming By Your Employer? 107

Posted by Cliff from the forced-between-a-rock-and-a-tin-of-canned-meat dept.
SOS asks: "My employer has asked me to setup a 'SPAM super boxen' in which all it does all day is spew out spam. We have setup a bogus domain, and brought in several broadband internet connections from several ISPs in which to do this nasty deed from. I have insisted at the very least that we actually do setup a system in which people can take there name off the list by simply replying to the spam email. But I would rather not do this at all, while still being employed by this company. The impression management is under is that 'spam works'. Its very simple, they spend $2000 for a server and internet connection, have there system admin spend a few hours setting it up, and if they only gain 5 clients from 50,000 emails, it will be well worth it. If one ISP shuts us down, we switch to another one the same day. What argument can I use to somehow dislodge this idea from there head, and possibly implant something a little more sensible, while staying employed?" I always liken SPAM to telemarketers. Everyone hates being associated with telemarketers. However if that trick doesn't work and the legalese surrounding SPAM isn't enough of an argument against it, what other arguments are likely to gain the attention of your neighborhood PHB?
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Forced Into Spamming By Your Employer? More

Forced Into Spamming By Your Employer?

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  • Learn To Spell, Then Get a New Job (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If you learn the difference between "there" and "their" perhaps you'll be marketable to get a new job.

  • Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It's a shame the person posted w/ a nickname, probably that he/she has used somewhere else before.

    In the future, and for everyone else, don't even raise objections with your employers about their marketing schemes. The marketing people don't care, they also have more friends in upper management than you do.

    Simply post the story as an AC, call the ISP from a payphone and alert them that this is about to happen, newgroup post from someone elses poorly secured NNTP server to NANA about it.

    Oh, and post the CEO's email address to as many newsgroups, weblogs and porno password sites as possible. After all, he may miss out on the next big deal of the century if he doesn't get all that good 'free' advertising, right?

    The main thing is, don't ever let them know you're the mole.
  • root@fbi.gov, president@whitehouse.gov, root@iana.org, root@internic.net, support@microsoft.com, and a few mailing list addresses. The wrath upon Mgmt(tm) will convince then to change their ways.

  • Re:Be a sneak (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Great idea. Even better, go undercover and sumbit to www.orbs.org etc. *before* your server is set up. Tell them the deal, and they will back you up. This way, your boss loses $3000 when his server is blackholed the same day it goes online.
  • Posted by skunkeh:

    I like to think I'd turn them down and walk out of there - but in the end how much cash are you prepared to lose for your principles?

    Mind you it could look great on your CV provided you can find an ethical company to interview you :o/
  • Posted by skunkeh:

    That's a good angle - my company would never consider spamming just because of the bad press it would generate. Unfortunately if your company is marketing a dubious product (as seems to be the case with 99% of spammers) they probably won't care...
  • Posted by HedgeCore:

    You could send your company's fake domains to spam filter list websites. That way at least you could ease your conscience by helping to giving people fair warning. (I'm assuming that spam filter lists are available online. They do, right? I don't filter my e-mail, so I'm not sure... it sounds like it would make sense though)
  • Posted by skunkeh:

    Someone give that man a medal :o) We've got an anti-spam hacker in our building. He tells long technical jokes about the security on spam relay machines that he's "investigated" - I don't understand them but they make the other techies laugh...

  • Preemptive... (Score:4)

    by Chris Parrinello ( 1505 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:41PM (#351188)
    I'd say drop a line to the RSS or RBL people and the regular spam buster houses and tell them what is going to happen. Or at least tell maybe tell us what the domains are or the subjects of the spams are going to be so we can add them to our own procmailrc files. :)
  • So he'd only work for savvy bosses from then on? Bummer!

    (I know. I just couldn't resist.)
    --

  • Just send out a few hundred set up so that replies come back to your boss or superior. After seeing what people think of spam, they will most likely drop it. The problem with refusing or quiting, is that if they think it is a good idea, they will try to find someone else to set it up. You have the opportunity to show them what a bad idea it is.

  • Spam is illegal in many juridictions (Score:3)

    by astrashe ( 7452 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:52PM (#351191) Journal
    Spam is illegal in many jurisdictions. People have been prosecuted. Unless you have a reliable system to avoid sending spam to people in those jurisdictions -- and I'm certain you don't -- you're going to break the law.

    Life's too short to work for jerks and criminals. You've got skills, and despite what everyone says, your skills are still marketable. Take advantage of that, and trade up to a better job.
  • Goodness.

    Imagine what would happen if *everyone* had your attitude.

    We'd have space shuttles blowing up, all because someone didn't have the cojones to fink-out the boos. Or child slave labour manufacturing negligees for rich bitches. Or toxic spills devastating entire ecosystems, beyond all repair.

    Oh... wait. It seems everyone *does* have your attitude.

    Except, perhaps, the few people who have put their lives on the line to stop their employers from doing the illegal and immoral. Karen Silkwood, f'rinstance.

    But, then, people with strong moral fiber are surely a world apart from people like you.

    --
  • Bloody hell, I wish Slashdot had an edit feature.

    Strike the last line; I re-read your post, and your first point somewhat ameliorates what you said in the second point. Not that your second point is really all that terrific: blindly doing what the boss says does yourself and your boss a disservice.

    --
  • The KKK does not have a right to march in my living room. Operation Rescue does not have a right to call my phone number. Spammers do not have a right to contact my SMTP server.
    --

  • Quit (Score:1)

    by Jeremi ( 14640 )
    This sounds like an excellent company to not work at. Quit, tell them why you are quitting, and go find another job at a company with some sort of ethics.
  • I think he is trying to find a way to help his employer figure out that spamming doesn't fit with their morals and ethics. If he finds out he is wrong in that assumption, then your statement is valid.

  • You can find plenty of other employment opportunities, man. It will only hurt the company.
    Fighting the War on the War on Drugs.
  • Show him a way to make more money.

    In this case you must show him how his money is going into a black hole by spamming. Find case studies and figure out the ROI for such an operation. If it turns out that spamming does actually have a decent ROI then...

    Show him how the ill will generated by the spamming is losing him money. In particular you must show that he is losing more money than he is making.

    If both those fail, then maybe he *should* be in the spam business.

    --

  • Ohh this one is easy. (Score:3)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:45PM (#351199)
    .. really easy.

    1) Do you think you can change the attitude of the company? Only you would know this. If you feel it's something you can educate people about, by all means try.

    2) Don't forget that it's not your company; you are an employee, and it's their way or the highway. You can indicate to them that you will not do this, and that if that means you lose your job, that's fine. Or you can simply say 'no' and quit. That's your call.

    3) You can do the job you are being paid to do. Spam is not illegal where you are? Your employer is paying for their bandwidth? I hate spam as much as the next guy... but only you can decide how far to go to protect what you think is right.
  • If spamming is illegal in your locality, you could be charged as an accessory to [whatever the legal term is for spamming]. Hell, you might even get a reward for narc'ing them out. :)
  • I guess I pissed off a spammer really good a while back, because someone sent a pile of spam with my email address on the From: line. I got hundreds of bounces and NOT ONE REPLY.

    So either people aren't interested in what the spammer was selling (spamming tools), or the majority of people with email addresses just ignore it now.

    Personally, I'd quit if I couldn't get them to change course. But it's your choice, not mine.

    Good luck.
  • Just point out that you will probably lose more than five customers if you spam 50,000. People really dont like spam, and your likely to lose more than you gain.

    I dont have any numbers to back this up, but they probably dont have any for thier arguments either.
  • You can do some good before you leave. Set up their super spam boxen to flood the company's internal e-mail system.

    Go down in a blaze of glory, I always say.

    --
  • If you're in any sort of reputable business the cost of spamming is not just a server, bandwidth and admin time.

    The damage done to the reputation of the company, and the hassle from the annoyed recipients will cost you far more. If you're selling something they will have SOME way to get a hold of you.

    If that doesn't convince them, carefully read Death March by Ed Yourdon this weekend.

  • It would be taking a moral stand just like refusing to help distribute faulty medical equipment would. I'm being serious. You can do better. You wouldn't be bringing anything good to the world by staying. Do good to the world.
  • Don't forget that it's not your company; you are an employee, and it's their way or the highway. You can indicate to them that you will not do this, and that if that means you lose your job, that's fine. Or you can simply say 'no' and quit. That's your call.

    For some reason, this sounds like an episode of the Sopranos. Somebody decides they no longer want to do the family business, and when they try to get out, boom, they get whacked. Leaving a job over something like this would really put a dent in your resume. Non-savvy bosses are going to say, "Hmmm, this fella doesn't do what he's told," and that will be the end of that interview.
  • I'm in the same boat. My employer actually does b2b spam. Their clients contract us to do web-based guest satisfaction surveys, and we have to spam our clients' customer lists to ask for them to fill out a survey. At least we're only spamming customers, but it's still heartbreaking.

    I'm in a worse position, though, because we're actually getting paid to do it. No matter how much I complain, it still brings money directly in the door, and it's not like I can bite the hand that feeds me.

    Spam really is a moneymaker, just like snail mail spam is, and in these dark days of dot-com deadpools, you can't afford to pick your customers. I can't exactly point at any other profitable web-based business and say, "See, this is how you're supposed to do it."
  • It's CHEAP. You'd have to show the company how to make a LOT more money. This is so much cheaper than advertising, it's not even funny.

    Perhaps hiring a hit is your only alternative? :)

  • The impression management is under is that 'spam works'.

    If management is this stupid, you'd better leave as soon as possible. Tell your boss that you won't work for a company that harasses people. (Spam is harassment.)

    The only way to get them to rethink this is to get it through their thick skulls that spam is harassment, and that no business can survive by harassing it's potential customers.

    Let them know that any ISP they use will prohibit this - and then go to the ISP's and tell them - get them to talk to your management, and to tell them why this is bad - have them use the word "lawsuit" as much as possible. (Large ISP's have successfully sued spammers in the past.)

    If this doesn't work, post the email addresseses of your bosses here, so everyone at /. can politely inform them of how bad spam can be for business. :o)
  • I value my job, and I was asked to do something similar.

    I told my boss in no uncertain terms "NO!".

    And (after a very long discussion,) he conceded.. he said that he thought that I was wrong, but if I felt that strongly about it, then he'd concede.

    It's not impossible - you just have to be adamant.
  • nice going. im an ex-CTO now because the company i worked for just wouldnt listen. and i quit over it rather than have my name associated with a small company who routinely spammed people. best decision i ever made. getting a job is pretty easy for me....i dont know about other people but it usually takes me 4-6 weeks to get a new job at an equal or higher salary...maybe SOS here should just quit.

  • I have never bought anything (or visited the site of) any company that has sent a spam email to me. Mainly because the language is appalling, littered with $ signs (and I live in the UK - yep, sound very targetted to me), and I know that the product will NOT change my life forever, or give me a 13" wanger and 15 girls a week, or show me the most beautiful girls without clothes in the world.

    I (and most other slightly clueful internet users) view any spam email as suspicious and dodgy (like a pyramid scheme, etc). Your company might sell the most marvellous products, but all that effort will go to waste if you use spam. I recall a company called "Domains for Christmas" that used spam email to get customers - the resulting backlash all but shut the company down before it had started, and I haven't heard of it since.

    Talk to your boss about opt-in mailing lists and online targetted advertising, such as the excellent Google system. Newsletters and the like every month or so are fine, and they will go to the customers most likely to buy stuff (otherwise why would they have signed up?). Newsletters every week are annoying, and every fortnight is dodgy as well. On the opt-in form, put an option for "Plain Text Mails Only" please...

    Your boss sounds just like a clueless bosses off of BOFH 2 (on The Register).
  • Spam is a behavior that can include speech, but forbidding is not a violation of freedom of speech.

    Consider your example: KKK marches. The KKK is allowed to ask for permits to parade just like anybody else. And the government can't deny them the permit just because their opinions are unpopular. But neither does the government have to grant them the right to parade where they please just because they are speaking.

    Don't believe me? Try applying for a permit to march through a residential neighborhood at 3 am. You'll be denied. Try marching, and you could legitimately be arrested, and telling the judge that the Constitution promises freedom of speech will not get you out of the slammer. Thus should it be with spamming.
  • Well if I get e-mail with an opt-out then I *might* do business with a company. However, if its just plain spam I won't do business with the company. As a matter of fact I don't even allow myself to read the punchline... I'm voting with my $.. everyone else should too.. its the only way.

    JOhn
  • Or sign him up on a few pron lists ;)

    JOhn
  • There's really no other way to put it, but setting your business up for spamming is the rough equivalent of sewing a nice red A into the front of all your garments. While they may get a few customers from it, they will lose far more.

    I have to wonder what they're going to do when all your possible ISP's refuse to provide service to you, which should take about a week. Note that you won't be able to get any broadband service ever again. Your company will be forced into using UUNet dialups to get internet access.

    Stupid stupid stupid. Please let us know what your company is, then quit.

    Michael
  • Like North Carolina [slashdot.org]. Tell your boss that if the company sends spam into NC, they can be found guilty of NC State Law, and suffer a variety of possible penalties. A lot of states have no-spam laws also, besides NC.
  • that would be chicken manure .....
  • Better yet...

    Send all of the e-mails out to ABUSE at the ISPs being used.

    Send hundreds of them, constantly.

    I promise not much spam will get out before the ISPs pull the plug.

    For added effect, put ABUSE @ ISP in the reply field.

    "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
  • If both those fail, then maybe he *should* be in the spam business.

    Spam can generate a real return on investment, actually.

    Unfortunately, it's quite probably partially to blame for the fall of the internet's advertisement market.

    Because of spam, nobody trusts advertisement agencies. Because nobody trusts them, less people purchase online. Because less people purchase online, web-sites investing loads on legit advertisement don't make a return on their investment. Because Spammers reach more customers, cheaper, they sometimes profit.

    Thus - SPAM killed the dot-coms. (Well, not really -- but it makes for a good anti-spam argument.)

    "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
  • Just make sure that you put all of your superiors' email addresses in your list to spam. That'll probably cure them of wanting to send out SPAM!

    If not, it would be a great way to quit your job.
  • The full contact information for you manager would more subtly be put where *they* will never notice it - the whois record .

    Oh - you DO have the FULL list of internal addresses for your organisation in your spam list too. Including all the possible variations on each address, naturally, plus a few million more that are *almost* right and just waste resource. (You don't need to feel guilty about spamming yourselves this way :-).

    That might bring a different perspective to the "wonders" of spam when your own staff all start complaining.

  • I think the saying goes
    "integrity is standing by your principles even when they are not convinent"

    please excuse the spelling



    Jon
  • I agree with BlueJay, the bosses you would want to work for will see this as a mark of integrity. Also, you don't tell them _why_ you quit, just say 'creative differences' or somesuch. And I believe it would be illegal for you past employer to tell them anything about it. Also, if you have a friend at the company arrange in advance and get permission to put them on your references list.

    BTW, I am not recommending that you quit, I'm just pointing out that it would not be the end of your career. I would educate management about spam and the _cost_ of it when people retaliate, such as ISP costs. If you do get fired over it, make sure you notify each of the ISPs so that they get their access cut off.
  • Otherwise it wouldn't keep happening. The problem is it's damn cheap to set up and run a spam box. If you're running a scam or a porn site, the few people who fall for it will more than pay for the cost of the setup.

    Of course, if you're a legitimate company, the customers you alienate into never even considering your product will more than offset any potential gains from spamming. When I got a spam from a company offering my previous employer's products (Satellite TV stuff) quite a few employees complained and the word from upper management was one of the conditions of selling our stuff was not using UCE to do it.

    Of course, it'd be fairly easy to end the spam plague by making it computationally expensive to send a list to 20,000,000 people. And those 20,000,000 people could easly do that by requiring that any E-Mail that goes to them does so in encrypted form (To a 4096 bit key ideally.) They could whitelist mailing lists easily enough. My PGP (Well... GPG) key would have an EULA prohibiting its use for commercial E-Mail...

    However, no one will ever do that so Congress will have to screw around and try to create laws that don't conflict with the constitution and which don't do any good anyway.

  • as the contact address for more information about the product/service being spammed. I'm sure he will love the personal, direct replies he will get. :)
  • Like a central registry of companies/individuals who have been booted off for spamming, like how police share a list of people who have been convicted for violent/sexual crimes?

    This list could include name, city, state at the very least. If it weren't publicized, but only shared among ISPs, it could even include addresses, etc.

    This would eliminate the move-to-another-ISP soliution that the original poster's boss proposes.

    Participation among ISPs would be voluntary of course, but pretty soon, ISPs will start touting the fact that they are vigilant against harboring spammers -- it could be like a Internet "good housekeeping" seal, and bring goodwill from other legitimate customers.

  • Some states have good anti-spam laws that would allow the ISP to collect a nice fine. Other ISP have UCE/SPAM cleanup fees as part of their Acceptable Use Policy. There is money to be make in putting SPAMers out of business. Information on state anti-spam laws can be found at:
    http://www.spamlaws.com/
  • anyone have links to studies done on this?

    how effective (+ or -) is spam?
  • We're in the survey biz here too, and a primary part of our business is to use our clients' email lists to invite people to surveys.

    We are *very* careful about spam charges, since getting dropped into the RBL could doom us. At the bottom of our invitation emails, we carefully explain exactly how we obtained the person's email address, we clearly state our client's name, and we provide multiple recourses for people who think they've been emailed wrongly. Given the cynicism about "unsubscribe me" addresses, I'm not sure if anyone would ever use them, but we do provide it.

    We're not a pyramid scam or a dick-extension house, we make good-faith efforts to ensure that we don't piss people off, and we don't make any attempt to hide who we are or who we're serving. So I don't have any trouble sleeping at night over our survey invitation policies.

    zo.

    ps. The fact that our survey invitations usually parse in English distinguishes us from 99% of spam, anyway.

  • My point was that such behaviour will hopefully dissuade them from wanting to spam. I'm in the fortunate position that I can prevent it from my site, but others may have to reason with the unreasonable.

  • I guess I'm lucky... (Score:3)

    by ItsIllak ( 95786 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:52PM (#351232) Homepage
    ... because I'm the admin for a domain AND the tech director, so I have a policy that anyone who spams looses their email address for a week. I've not had any spam come out of my domain since that policy (actually I have, a customer's box was an open relay, but I fixed it quickly and efficiently.

    However, as a bonus to those in my company who might feel they are loosing a sales channel here, I remind them of a few facts.

    1) If you spam, you are likely to hit at least one person that's highly knowledgeable, and just as unethical as you are. This opens you up to a high chance of unwanted cracker attention (I'd use the word hacker here, it terrifies them more :)

    2) It's amazing just how much BAD will these things generate, and some people will go out of their way to get your legitimate ISP to shut you down as well. A lot of ISPs will do this for fear of hitting the RBL.

    3) Speaking of the RBL, there are some lists that will include you for taking part in this kind of behaviour. If you are traced (and that's by no means impossible), you could loose your email and internet lines.
  • Set up the relay to hose every account in the company, as well as your state's attorney general. Then pack up your dignity and walk.

    -Legion

  • Give us your domain. (Score:3)

    by haystor ( 102186 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:44PM (#351234)
    Give us your domain so we can blackhole you now, and you can take that to your management.

  • Convincing Arguments (Score:5)

    by scotch ( 102596 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:42PM (#351235) Homepage
    Why don't you post you manager's email address, snail mail address, business address, home phone, cell phone, and whatever other contact information you can come up with to this forum. The rest will take care of itself.

    ;)

  • This is why marketing people should not be allowed to use computers (though I can think of more than a few other atrocities).
  • Make sure your manager's email is listed multiple times in the spam list. "Really, sir! It was an accident!"

  • Been there. (Score:3)

    by FTL ( 112112 ) <slashdot@neil.fras[ ]name ['er.' in gap]> on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:51PM (#351238) Homepage
    I was in exactly the same situation at a previous employer. The boss thought that spam was an effective marketing tool, and I couldn't convince him otherwise. My solution was to make covert arrangements with a trusted friend whereby once the spam went out, my friend would 'crack' the company's public website. This 'crack' would be rather easy to perpetrate since I'd provided the FTP password.

    The expectation was that after consistently being defaced every time spam was sent out, the boss would think that spam was more trouble than it was worth. As it turned out, we never had to resort to this plan, since the company was driven into the ground first.
    --

  • I'm glad to see an example of push coming to shove here on Ye Olde High-n-Mighty Slashdot. So much of what goes on here is bluster, with precious little action, especially when we're talking this example where you're talking about affecting your wallet.

    I wouldn't suggest quitting, but you can also refuse and leave the firing up to them. At a job long ago, my boss was told by upper management to fabricate sales reports to feed to one of our suppliers. I told my boss that I wouldn't lie for them. He said he understood, and then went ahead and did it himself. No recriminations came down.

    --

  • Tell your employers that potential backlash from people flooding your servers with their own spam is potentially very expensive. Also I'm not sure of the legallity of this form of spam so lie and tell your employees they will get sued. that'll scare 'em enough.
  • Is it legal where you are? If not I suggest you point this out to management. If they still persist tell the authorities.
  • In addition, post fake forwards of spam that you supposedly sent, to a few mailing lists... such as dc-stuff

    add in the company name, phone number, address, president's name, his home phone number, etc.

    Mention in the email to have the people give the president a call and tell him what they think. It will get them (your employer) to stop asking you to spam

  • >1) Do you think you can change the attitude of
    >the company?

    Of course he doesn't! That is why he is asking /. !!!

    >2) Don't forget that it's not your company; you
    >are an employee, and it's their way or the
    >highway.
    WRONG. Any employee is a portion of a company. A company is nothing without employees. Each employee has the responsibility to make sure his company succeeds. Spamming will not help this cause.

    You have taken the attitude of many idiotic Americans that work for big businesses, like Microsoft, Sprint, AOL, AT&T, etc. You think that one person cannot change a company, but you are VERY VERY VERY wrong. One person, with the right motivation, can cripple any one of those companies.

    >3) You can do the job you are being paid to do.

    I do not do any task I morally have problems agreeing with. I don't give a damn if my employer wants me to do this or that, if it is wrong then I will NOT do it.

    >Spam is not illegal where you are?

    Illegal is different than being banned on the network. Most, if not all, major backbone providers have tough policies against spam.

    Stupid people, wake up and fight big business...

    x-empt
  • Take the lists of addresses and emails, pretend you are really spamming thousands, while in reality you only spam a couple of accounts (yours and your boss's)... fake the logs

    Make them think "spam: bad, it never attracts clients"

    Also, tell your ISPs that you are working at a company that only got their Internet connection to spam from.... get the ISP to terminate the account after a few days... get this arranged with their head admin. Make it look totally real.
  • Whats capitalism have to do with spamming? Anyone who owns a business is interested in keeping that business running. Maybe he was just reading some spam he received "BULK EMAIL WORKS!!1!!!"

  • Whats capitalism have to do with spamming? Anyone who owns a business is interested in keeping that business running. Maybe he was just reading some spam he received "BULK EMAIL WORKS!!1!!!"

  • You could always have various friends slowly 'leak' various company email addresses to several antispam newsgroups. Be sure to identify the fake domains, and perhaps include message titles. After a few days of being swamped by angery messages from a tiny fraction of the spam recipients, perhaps the management might get the idea that it's not really worth the argravation to find 5 to 10 clients.
  • you sir, are an idiot.

  • Well, IANAL, but I seem to recall that you can be arrested in one state for a crime committed against the laws of another.

    For example, murder (unless of a federal officer or certain other unusual circumstances) is not against federal law, but if I commit a murder in Nevada I can sure as hell be arrested in California for it.

  • Hasn't his company heard about the laws in individual states that prohibit this? Who is held responsible for the Spam? The company, sure, but if/when they hear that he designed and built such a beast? You think he has a chance to avoid being named as an individual as well as a corporate entity? I don't think so.

    DanH
    Cavalry Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]

  • Good idea. CC all of the management team on each out-going mail. If they ask, say its so they can monitor performance and efficacy. Don't forget to put the CEO's real name and personal e-mail address in the Reply-To field.

    For a bonus, attach an MS Word document in all of the mail going to the people in management. Something pithy, like a screed on why its not nice to spam. The disks will fill up so fast that way that your system will crash before you can send much spam.

  • "(you don't have to be in California--you just have to spam someone in California)"

    I'm having a hard time believing this is true. I think you probably have to be doing business in California...

    You do, or so says the Supreme Court (more than once). But that won't stop someone from suing you anyway, and even if it gets tossed at the first hearing, it's bloody expensive.

  • WRONG. Any employee is a portion of a company. A company is nothing without employees. Each employee has the responsibility to make sure his company succeeds. Spamming will not help this cause.

    I've fired people for having attitudes like that.

    You have taken the attitude of many idiotic Americans that work for big businesses, like Microsoft, Sprint, AOL, AT&T, etc. You think that one person cannot change a company, but you are VERY VERY VERY wrong. One person, with the right motivation, can cripple any one of those companies.

    And rightly face criminal prosecution for it.

  • For example, murder (unless of a federal officer or certain other unusual circumstances) is not against federal law, but if I commit a murder in Nevada I can sure as hell be arrested in California for it.

    Yep. And then be extradited to Nevada to stand trial. California cannot put you on trial for someone you do outside of California; they can only send you back to where the crime was committed.

    Likewise, California cannot put you on trial for something you did somewhere else that isn't illegal there. The only trick is making sure you understand where the law says your actions take place.

  • It's just like the old monty python skit. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
  • Simply:
    1. set it up
    2. push power button
    3. call appropriate government authority to report them
    If they're not giving people an unsubscribe option, they're breaking the law, right?
  • Better yet, add management's email addresses about a gazillion times to the list, and let them decide for themselves if their spam is a good thing.....
  • As his employee you're not in the position to do the convincing. If they're heart set on doing it, then there is nothing you can or should do, outside of finding another job. People hate telemarketers, but even the biggest best companies telemarket--because it works. If you were a telecom tech, do you think you could make a case to refuse to install the phones just because YOU don't believe in telemarketing?
  • I am not sure how legal spam is or if the US government is still deciding wither or not to make it ilegal but if your state syas that spam is ilegal then you have a case not to do it.
  • If they suspect thier ISP's will shut them down, it can become a self full filing prophocy. Make it happen! Will their ISP's hit them with monetary penalties?
  • why stay under their employment if you cant agree with their morals and ethics? if your not happy with what your doing go find a new job, let someone else do the work you know is wrong
  • I'm not too thrilled about spammers, but I'm even less thrilled about the precedent this sort of thing for the Internet--inter-jurisdictional issues are not nearly as cut and dried as they are for physical infractions. If you offed someone in Nevada, for instance, you were in Nevada when you did it--no question about jurisdiction, obviously you violated a local law while you were locally present. Across the Internet, though, things are a bit more hazy--how can you violate California law if you were never in California? Does this hold true for New York? England? Sri Lanka? What about if you don't even know where the destination of your message is physically located? What if the mail server is in one state, but the user is in another? You sent it to my home server in Washington, but maybe I'm on vacation and check my mail from San Francisco. What then?

    I guess the best physical analogy would be if you were standing in California and shot across the border and killed someone in Nevada. I have no idea what would happen with such a case--possibly at that point it would be a federal crime, because state lines were crossed in the commission of a felony? I dunno. But I'm not too hot on localities being able to impose their local laws on any user anywhere in the world.
  • Get your boss' email address onto a few dozen spam email lists. He/She might change his/her attitude after a few weeks of non-stop spamming. And make sure you get all of their email addresses, not just the work one.

    And don't ever mention it, let your boss bring it up, otherwise they might suspect it was you and fire you for some obscure reason.

  • On the flipside, a prospective employer who does background checks might see this as a mark of integrity, standing by your values.
  • "Innocently" post your employer's email address to usenet. Make it be part of a question on something technical.

    Either that, or have the postmaster forward him all bounced emails.

  • I beleive the reason would be that he wishes to remain employed . Man I wish that people would read before they post!

    j/k ;-)

  • Uh, if it's illegal, why warn them? :)
  • "(you don't have to be in California--you just have to spam someone in California)"

    I'm having a hard time believing this is true. I think you probably have to be doing business in California...

    C//
  • You have to be kidding. This sounds akin to pro-life fanatics lauding the killing of abortion clinic doctors.

    I find it sad that you apparently think spam so evil that you were willing to forfeit all of your personal ethics to combat it. Regardless of any justifiction that you were working for the "greater good", you were deeply wrong to give anyone access to the company systems you were trusted with. Not only that, but you were incredibly stupid, as you would've been legally responsible for the incident, and you could've gotten your friend in trouble or been easily caught yourself. If you wanted to do something about the problem and keep your dignity, you should've resigned.

    It sounds to me that you and your unscrupulous, spam-happy company were perfectly suited for each other. I hope you grow up and get a little more sense. The fight against unscrupulous spammers doesn't need help from equally unscrupulous, fanatical idiots.

  • I know someone will tell me it's not, because it has a real cost associated with it. It uses computer resources and bandwidth.

    But guess what? There is a real cost associated with the KKK marching in DC, or giving some speeches in your hometown. There was also a very real cost when thousands of protesters showed up at the WTO meeting in Seattle.

  • like that, add management personal info to the spam, so people can reply to it. also, put them on the list. As they get spammed, maybe they will understand more

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:47PM (#351272)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Ys I see you sa that u don't want to do this spaming thing, yet you are going along with this. Just up front and tell them that this is just wong. but now here is were i geat mean, if you go along with this, and implement this, then you are no better then they are, If anything ask to be taken off the project, that ts against your morials. That way you don't lose your job, and you ar enot part of this problem
  • If I were in your shoes, I think I'd go ahead, set up the server, and start it working, while surreptitiously slipping word to ORBS, etc. the domain and IPs you're using. I suspect your boss wouldn't even get the 0.01% return he's counting on, and would eventually give up.
  • Better yet, put it (all his/her contact info) in every piece of SPAM you send.
  • hmm how about "Can I try with your e-mail first, Boss?" then try to set up about 100 spam per day, see wheter he likes it or not?
  • I think you'll find yourself doing it. Mainly because if you don't do it, it will be easy to find someone who will.

    Someone who's already got it in their head to use Spam as a marketing tool is beyond reason.

    Dancin Santa

  • x-empt wrote, "Take the lists of addresses and emails, pretend you are really spamming thousands, while in reality you only spam a couple of accounts (yours and your boss's)... fake the logs"

    Oh, that's great! I love it! Except I'd add a few other accounts to the list. How about webmaster@fbi.gov, abuse@aol.com, the webmaster at spam.abuse.net [abuse.net], postmaster@cauce.org, and key individuals at other various law enforcement and anti-spam groups?

    I think that might get a little bit of extra action ;)

    "...get the ISP to terminate the account after a few days..."

    That's even better. And I can't think of an admin that wouldn't do it. Happily.

  • Convincing them... (Score:5)

    by CyberDawg ( 318613 ) on Tuesday March 20, 2001 @02:48PM (#351282) Homepage

    I was placed in a similar position when I was CTO of a company and the marketing weenies decided to start a spamathon.

    Remember that the main motivator is money when you're dealing with marketing/sales people. If ethics won't sell them on the spam=BAD equation, then use money to do it. I wrote a lengthy memo (I don't recall whether I saved a copy or not) describing the possible negative side-effects of starting a spam campaign.

    The primary negative was revenge. Ask them how they'd like to have their 800# shut down by people calling to complain, or how they'd like their main Web site (not just the spam machine) and network compromised and destroyed by anti-spam hackers. Ask how they'd like the fax machine to be constantly busy and out of paper. Ask how they feel about hauling in the lawyers to respond to complaints that they've violated California's anti-spam law (you don't have to be in California--you just have to spam someone in California). Even if they can show they didn't violate the law, it'll cost money to fight it.

    When I made this argument to the marketing guy, he said that if someone did that to us, they'd be breaking the law. I told him that wouldn't prevent people from doing it! I also had him read CAUCE [cauce.org] propoganda and other anti-spam materials.

    I'm not sure whether he ended up seeing my point, or gave up out of frustration having to deal with me, but he gave up.

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