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Hardware

Inexpensive Storage of Terrabytes on WORM Media? 30

Posted by Cliff from the more-bytes-than-a-beach-full-of-sand dept.
noSpaceleftonDevice asks: "The company I work for stores large amounts of data on magnetic-optical platters. We currently buy these for about $60 per 4.6 GB platter. So far, we have over a terabyte stored, which really adds up (especially considering each items is stored on multiple disks and stored off site for redundancy and safety), and my guess is that we will write that much again in the next 12 months. We could use standard write-once CDs (which are much cheaper), but each terabyte would require well over 1000 CDs (not counting redundancy). Writing to, storing and managing this many platters quickly becomes unmanageable. I'm wondering if any of the Slashdot community knows of a better/faster/cheaper way to write large amounts of data on Write-Once Read-Many media."
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Inexpensive Storage of Terrabytes on WORM Media? More

Inexpensive Storage of Terrabytes on WORM Media?

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  • Some clarification (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I should have been more specific in my original post (yeah, I'm noSpaceleftonDevice) - Outsourcing is not an option, and yes, the data needs to be stored on WORM media (think "legal" requirements). We do have an indexing system for our 4.6Gb platters, and it would work for cd's too (still concerned about the number of platters - considering redundency and offsite storage - it would take about 5000 platters per terabyte). The HP jukebox is interesting - I'll have to take a look at that.

    Thanks all for the suggestions- please keep them coming!

  • OK, so you bolt your jukeboxes inside shipping containers. Data which you're presently using will be stacked in your automated warehouse, having jacks which automatically connected to power/data ports. Archived data will fit on standard container trucks, shipping yards...and in case of overseas acquisition can be shipped around the world.

  • You manage 1000's of CD's. Then recommend this one again.

    There are CD jukeboxes sold in the consumer market that hold 200 discs [zdnet.com]. It wouldn't be too difficult to scale up the concept to thousands.

  • Do a little comparison on the 10.4 HP drive and the Sony 9.1GB-14X magneto optical drive. Try to see which one has more mind-share so you know which one you will be able to get media for in the future. Of course it may be too soon to tell or perhaps they are on even footing. The upside for the Sony is that is supposed to be available now so it has a head-start.
  • 10 years is more than enough, most businesses focusing on data warehousing eventually go belly up when the CEO learns that it's a useless venture suited only for governments.
  • and my spelling sucks ass

  • Ok, whatever, teacher. Then you hack together 5 pieces of audio hardware to manage the 1000's of CD, then still have to manage the 1000's of CD's, (they still have to be inserted, organized, labeled, etc), then recommend the untested, unproven, and wont-hold-legal-merit solution to a guy who has to have that requirement. Oh, yeah, write the software to handle it too, and do it in a few months.

    If you dont know, or have no experience, MOVE on, POST elsewhere, where you may have good valid experience and input.

    Think ...it's not going to hurt.

  • Talk to a document management / document imaging vendor. They will have all kinds of input and solutions for you since this is right up thier alley. I can recommend some for you, OTG being at the top of my list. I think I've said enough on this topic, yerricde + AC's STFU already. you dont know. just stop crapping on this question.
  • The most important thing for you is to make sure you will have some way to access your old data. You should be looking for backwards compatibility!

    Or you will need to keep the old system around for a long time.

  • First off, OTG sucks, but there really is not anything better out there.

    Second, you can use any platform for your storage with OTG so I would not call it NT only. Disk extender works best with WMRM type drives (SNAP server anyone??.) I would setup a data warehouse if you don't already have one (there is a new SNAP server coming out 750Gig raid 5.) Also, you will want to upgrade to lager disks. Use the warehouse to buffer your older data, you won't have to change disks as often.

    DLT will make for less disks but I don't know how long you need to keep this data. Upgrading(if you can) the system you have is your best bet, maybe you can get something that is backwards compatable.

  • I have not had a great laugh like this in a long time .. thank you

    Onepoint

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  • I remeber reading in here somewhere about possible quad++ density CD-Rs for storage.

    here's the link:
    article [slashdot.org]

    It seems to me that if you could find a company to build you burners with a greater than 4x density, you'd have a very compact, and (all things considered) secure storage media. Secure for the single reason that you'd be the only people with the CD drives capable of reading disks of that density.

    ________________________
    "Its the truth, even if it didn't happen." -Rev. Charles Dodgson

  • I saw your question and immediately thought of a new technology being developed by Constellation 3D. It's called FMD/C (Fluorescent Multi-layer Disks and Cards). In fact, I just did a class presentation on it last night, rather fascinating media.

    The disks are the same size as cd's and dvd's, but are transparent w/ a tint, and will initially hold 140GB of data on 30 layers. Again, that's the first generation disk, they also plan to release 100 layer disks later on, and disks with capacities of up to a terabyte. The speed is also extremely fast compared to current cd and dvd reading/writing technology. They say it will be able to read at speeds exceeding a gigabit/sec because of their parallel data access technology. The parallel access allows it to access data on multiple layers and tracks simultaneously for increased speed. The disks are also more reliable than cd's and dvd's because they aren't as prone to data loss from scratches/imperfections on the surface.

    The other thing you might like is that they're planning a disk 200mm in diameter for corporate archival.

    You should take a look at the company website (http://www.c-3d.net [c-3d.net]), lots more information than I can provide. I do hope this helps.

    -BLM
  • I realise that this is terribly off topic, but as an aside, many hard drive *can* be made WORM, though they have a higher cost per Meg then, say, a CD.

    I have a few IBM drives at home (some old, some new) that have WARM capabilities built in -- the first is a write protect jumper -- no biggie, if you want to change the data, just change the jumper.

    The other is the most amusing -- it is another jumper flanked by a big red caution label. If you bridge this circuit, it actually blows some of the PROM, namely the part that allows data to be written to the disk.

    This has been another useless fact.
  • This was the fortune on the bottom of the page when I loaded it:
    * gb notes that fdisk thinks his cdrom can store one terabyte -- Seen on #Linux
    Kind of amusing...
    --
  • Speaking of holding up in court,

    Howabout a hybrid solution: I store the files as normal backups, on tape/disk/whatever, but store a secture hash on the worm drive. So I use the worm capabilities to provide the authentication, but the price-per-bit of magnetic drives for the data.

    hrm?

    On a side note, I seem to recall plan-9 using a worm to do its nightly backups. However, since they were all incremental, they didn't need much space -- I recall Richie (I think) musing that storage capacity was growing faster than they were using it...
  • I posted this above, but here is a better place:

    does all of it need to be on WORM, or can you just use that to store several hashes? I'm suggesting you use normal TAPE to store the backups and then store a hash on WORM. The hash authenticates the non-tamper resistant tape, while remaining cheap and convenient since you only need one.

  • error - parse.c (223): 'inexpensive' and 'terrabyte' detected in the same sentence

  • Compact Disc Recordable. Just break your data up into 700 MB chunks and shove it onto CDs using those new 16x burners at under $1/GB for media. Need more than 16x? Use more burners. Any problems with this?
  • You don't have to hack audio hardware together. There are several "CD Jukeboxes" that are designed for data archiving. I've seen DVD towers [techwaredist.com] that hold 1.23TB of data. Techware [techwaredist.com] also has up to 5.8TB WORM jukebox with the new Sony 9.1GB-14X magneto optical drive. Up to 638 slots and 12 drives. You could try Computer Upgrade Corporation [optical.com]. They have solutions up over 5TB. There are many more. None of these are hacks.

    I'm not going to call this Ask Google because I think there can be a lot added by discussion that you wouldn't otherwise get.

  • I'm not a hardware whiz but isn't it possible to cut some wire in a plain-vanilla el cheapo IDE HD and achieve the same effect?
  • There are several companies out there that will do the storage for you, for pennies on the dollar of what you are doing now. These places allow you to send the data to them via Internet, or even on you local lan, to medium in the data center. They store the data in EMC Symmetrix Boxes. Highly reliable, highly redundant configurations, with off site mirroring capablities. I have worked for a couple companies who did this. Very reliable, and generally inexpensive to use in the long run, and much easier to catalouge and manage especially when you need the data back.

  • Arrgh (Score:2)

    by sulli ( 195030 )
    It's terabytes, folks. At least get the spelling in the headline right!
  • You can get tape backup for about $100 per 70GB tape, and even cheaper (especially in volume). It is not write once media, but it would take less storage, and cost less. And with today's robotic systems that could write to multiple tapes/automatically rotate libraries, it should be easy to do. Also shell life is not that long, but I believe for some tapes it is up to 10 years.
  • There are a few alternatives on the horizon, and some here now.

    HP will have 10.4 GB optical platters and jukeboxen out by the fall. I have used HP's optical products for a few years now and found them to be solid. if you get the new juke, the 2400ex(really the 1200ex model with 10GB drives), you can get 2.4TB in one refrigerator sized unit.

    There are a few vaporware items floating around, like the Flourescent optical disks that hold 140GB on a disk, but fat chance youll see any them soon or cheap.

    as far as management software goes, OTG's Disk Xtender is the best JB management software, bar none. I know y'all may be turned off to the fact it is an NT only solution, but frankly the only *nix offerings I've seen SUCK ASS (KOM is the absolute worst). The box _will be for a dedicated function, and so many slashdotters forget that businesses want a solution, not a linux server or an NT server. They dont care for platform, aside from operating standards, what runs it.

    Keep in mind your requirement for static unchangeable data. You're not going to get that without paying the price. You may ask, "does the data need to be stored that way?"

  • You manage 1000's of CD's. Then recommend this one again.

  • UM Hard drives are nor WORM. Many companies are bound to using unchangeable media for legal or ethical purposes. Thats why not.

    Dont gimme the "you can make the device read only after the files write or the volume fills", it wont hold up in court.

  • Well I think you might have to look at the problem differently.

    I have broken the problem down a bit maybe this will help you

    my idea is based of the following
    1) short term storage is not required to be "wormed"
    2) long term storage has to be "wormed"
    3) there is flexability

    I would look at the solution as this

    1) hard drive servers gathering the daily/weekly/whatever rate data ( hot swap boxes to prevent down time )

    1a) link all this to a tape backup server

    2) tape drive system copies the data in a specific order that you have determined

    2a) tape system lets you store huge amount of data cheaply. That might give you the edge when you need to store big amounts of information.

    3) taped data transfered to optical system that is jukebox.

    4) optical system stores data for warehousing

    I'm thinking of the VDF16000 that has something around the area of 10-16 gigs of storage per 12" disk. and they have a jukebox system up to 1 tera + now this is going back about 3 years ago so there has to be something better. try looking at sony or philips I recall that they had something like this also.

    ONEPOINT


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  • You can get 40GB IDE drives for $95, probably less if you buy them in bulk. Get removable drive trays and use IDE drives instead. Admittedly they are not as "long term" as Optical/CDs and vunerable to magnets, but if they are for off-site storage, this shouldn't be a problem.
    --
    He had come like a thief in the night,

  • Obvious answer... (Score:3)

    by cperciva ( 102828 ) on Tuesday April 03, 2001 @11:30PM (#316590) Homepage
    Why not use DVDs? They are about 4GB IIRC and while they are much more expensive than CDs (even on a $/GB basis) they are cheaper than what you're using right now.

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