Employers Who Hold Back Their Employees? 279
greggman asks: "So, I'm watching 'Tonight 2', the night news program here in Japan and they are showing E3 coverage. I guess one game that hit it off was a game by KOEI called Dynasty something or other. They visited KOEI here in Yokoyama Japan but they had masked out all faces from the team. When the interviewer asked why, the company rep said 'because other companies would try to steal our employees'. That's messed UP!! I consider that to be akin to treating your employees like slaves. If you can't afford to keep your employees and therefore have to make sure they don't find out about better opportunities then you deserve to go out of business. It's their life not the company's. It almost seems like there'd be a law against action like that. All I can suggest is that you don't support companies that actively prevent their employees from bettering themselves." Couple this with the long hours, the draconian employment contracts, and the insane deadlines, and I begin to wonder if this guy has a serious point. For all the money that programmers make, do Employers do more to make their jobs harder than most?
"What do you think? I'm not saying a company should go out of its way to find opportunities for their employees but deliberately getting in the way seems to cross some kind of line to me.
I've actually run a company before and these kind of questions came up. At least once somebody called and actually asked permission to recruit somebody from us. He was a friend but had a good opportunity. I talked to one of my partners and he said we shouldn't get in the way. We were lucky our employee chose to stay as we were not big enough to really offer more but there was no way we were going to prevent him from deciding for himself which we felt like would be immoral and un-ethical."
It's for their own safety! (Score:1)
Seriously, I don't think it's a big deal, yeah they don't show their face on TV, so what ? If some competitors want to get their names, you know they will.
Re:No sympathy for programmers (Score:1)
I also make a 6-figure salary for doing a job that could easily be done by a semi-literate monkey with a bad attitude. I don't have to repair hazardous equipment, carry around radioactive waste, or clean up anyone's vomit. And I don't, really, have to put up with the crap the developers would love to give me. This job is easy in the grand scheme of things, and the pay is outrageously high. If you're not making as much as the developers, you're taking it up the ass and I have no sympathy - learn to negotiate next time.
Re:Programming isn't real work! (Score:1)
Eventually you will find yourself on some boring project that is without any meaning to which you can relate. One day you will realize that your ass is getting fatter from resting on it all day, while your gut ever increases. One day you will look at the screen, rub your blurry eyes and sigh. You will be thinking about the mortgage and the car payments. You will be thinking about a wife whose ass has grown even fatter than yours, and whose personality becomes more astringent with each passing day. You will pine for a light which is natural and doesn't flicker at 60 Hz. You will have nostalgia for that time when your muscles weren't flabby and when your skin didn't have an unhealthy pall.
On that day, my friend. You will realize Programming is real Work.
Re:No sympathy for programmers (Score:3)
Every cog in the wheel depends on the others. Some are rewarded with higher pay than the others. There is a place to argue the merits of this... it's called the job market.
Any system administrator that bitches about the hours required shouldn't have job. It's your job to be on call to keep machines up. You get paid to support programmers, so STFU and do your job. Some system administrators get paid to support financial analysts, or scientists, or surgeons. Accept the nature of your role, or get another job. Support staff is not inherently less talented than development staff, but it's just that... support staff.
Of course, I'm just an anonymous, cowardly developer gloating that I have zero-stress job that only requires fifteen hours a week to pull down six figures. Go get a higher paying job doing something else and leave sysadminning to those who love it.
Even if their faces were visible... (Score:2)
"Yes, may I speak to your head game designer? The guy who looks about 30ish, long dyed-brown hair, angular face, stubble... oh, and I think he wears an orange T-shirt."
Re:Cultural Miscue (Score:2)
The fact that management is concerned about losing employees should indicate that it is, if not a major problem, at least a possibility.
I also dispute your claim that "The working conditions for technical workers are far better than what you will find in America." Even in high-tech, the offices are cramped, the hours are long, and the bureacracy is thick. And don't forget the infamous Tokyo commute. I think most Japanese high-tech workers can only dream of working in U.S.-style conditions.
Finally, "yamato" is just an ancient name for Japan. Perhaps you meant wa, or giri, or some other oft-(mis)used term.
Re:Wow, there needs to be a law against this. (Score:2)
Re:it's a matter of culture (Score:2)
Yamamoto?
Re:Programmers of the world, UNITE!!! (Score:2)
No. I've yet to see a union that's done anything constructive. All they do is blackmail companies to try and extract unreasonable pay and working conditions.
Re:Programmers of the world, UNITE!!! (Score:2)
Perhaps things are different in the US, but here in the UK, that's just simply not true. Railway workers have recently been on strike because management tried to impose a uniform that included a red waistcoat, and they didn't like it. Virtually all the recent strikes in the UK have included an element of the unions insisting on jobs for life -- no redundancies in the future. The rest of the country don't have that luxury, and it pisses me off to see public service workers striking to demand it. Striking means misery for millions trying to get to work / send a letter / whatever else.
An eXistenZ moment... (Score:2)
Death to the demon [YOUR NAME HERE]!
Two Japans (Score:2)
I have read somewhere that there actually are two types of Japanese companies. The big keiretsus (think Mitsubishi) where good students get employed and spend their whole life as safe sarariman, and the small contractors who try to survive around the keiretsus and offer no job security, not so good work conditions. The contractors are used as buffers by the keiretsus.
Is that vision right?
__
Reminiscent of Capcom's nickname credits (Score:2)
Personally, though, I think nickname credits are usually just meant to be cool. These kind of nicknames also go back a while -- remember "NAMCO ORIGINAL program by EVEZOO" from 1982? Then again, I'm sure protective companies like Koei would rather not credit their oh-so-treasured personnel by name...
A Personal Tale (Score:2)
Those who claim this kind of thing is peculiar to Japanese culture are misinformed. In fact, I would suspect it to be typical in the computer game industry. Computer game positions typically pay 10-20% less than "traditional" IT positions. It's also a "hit-based" industry. Computer games have become so ruinously expensive to produce that you either get filthy rich with a monster hit (like HalfLife), or you find yourself bankrupt when you discover your vision doesn't resonate with the market (like Daikatana).
I have some personal experience with this kind of "forced anonymization". I used to work for $(MUMBLE_SALTPILE_MUMBLE) in Redwood City, CA, which at that time was a game console company. One of the products being internally developed was a saved game file manipulator which would let you manage the very limited battery-backed RAM for storing saved games. Naturally, such a program does not consume a noticeable fraction of a CD-ROM, so the author walked around the office with a video camera saying Hi to various employees, compressed it, and put it on the CD-ROM as an easter egg.
Shortly before going gold, our corporate counsel ordered the video deleted from the CD. The reason? Competitors might see the video and recruit our people away.
The irony is that $(MUMBLE_SALTPILE_MUMBLE) voluntarily threw away so many people through its myraid "reorganizations" that it hardly mattered. Today, their stock is in the tank, and they haven't released anything imaginative in at least three years.
$(MUMBLE_SALTPILE_MUMBLE) isn't even the first company to do it. Those with longer memories and grey hairs will remember that Atari, back when it was owned by Warner Communications, absolutely forbade any author or artist credits for the games and software they published. Their position on this softened slightly when the easter egg in the 2600 VCS game Adventure became widely known, but it was this policy that was one of the primary motivations for a bunch of Atari people to jump ship and form Activision.
Schwab
But the specs are fuckin' jokes ... on YOU. (Score:2)
I earn my salary to buy my Aspirin and Tums. I had it a lot easier before I got into this racket.
dead wrong on the IT salaries (Score:2)
The "typical" programmer, Unix admin, or network guy in the US makes $50,000, some more, some less. Contract workers are a completely different story, but they're the first to go when budgets get cut.
Just because the crowd you know, or the Slashdot crowd for that matter, makes a killing in IT doesn't mean that the majority do.
Try reading a salary survey [computerworld.com] from a weekly like Computerworld. Granted this one is from mid-year 1999, but things don't change much year-to-year in the "real world" of IT. Look at the figures: Average programmer = $45,000. Average network admin = $49,000.
These numbers are completely on-par with my knowledge of IT in media, manufacturing, retail, and even pharmaceutical companies. (having consulted in these less glamorous than
scavenger hunt (Score:2)
Are they really holding back? (Score:4)
I do think it is unfair that the employees are not getting personal credit for their work. If, note the IF, they do get full credits when the game is released, I don't see this as unfair. when you are in major crunch time few things ruin your day like the non-stop ring of moronic recruiters who are sure they can offer something better.
If you don't like your job, leave! Sometimes people can't leave though. My girlfriend works in a very specialized security position, but is currently in the middle of a workers-comp claim and can't leave her job without giving up the claim. The company has abused her through this for over 2 years and pays her 40% less than her co-workers because she can't leave. As soon as the legal paperwork is settled she is sending out her resume to every competitor they have.
The message I have is that if the people get the credit when the game is released then more power to them and the company - they will get poached when the game is _finished_ with major kudos, and until then they don't have to put up with 13 calls a day from pain in the ass recruiters.
* not all recruiters suck, but they do tend to be annoying.
- Chris
It got so bad.... (Score:3)
One developer's girlfriend got **really** pissed off when she was grilled over who she was, where she was calling from, where did her boyfriend lived, etc. When finally asked why she wanted to speak with him, she told the manager that she wanted to know what time he would be home so she could properly f*ck him. The developer went ballistic and stormed the CEO office and threaten to quit. The company's policy soon changed after that.
Err... let's look at this. (Score:2)
A bad sysadmin can compromise data. A bad programmer can slow everythign down. A bad janitor causes a stinky workplace. Bad management causes reduced workflow. It's childish to hide behind the 'All your servers are belong to me!' attitude; yes, you could destroy them. The janitor could also burn down the building. You do not determine what you get paid by what you are capable of destroying.
"You can have the best code in the world, but if you have a bad sysadmin, your data can be compromised."
Well...
You can have the best sysadmin in the world, but if your code sucks, it still sucks.
If you are not happy with the compensation you get for the hours and duties you have, seek new employment, or renegotiate current employment. I can assure you there are plenty of other sysadmin positions in the world where people are happy to do what they do.
Also, if you feel it's common for programmers to get paid more than sysadmins (IT IS, btw..), and this makes you jealous, why not seek a programming career? And if that's not your thing... perhaps that's why they get paid more than you?
For many syadmins, for the first few years, it's a power trip. Once you get over that, you may get into the real sysadmin jobs, where you actually get respect from your developers and managers, where you get paid a 6 figure salary, and don't feel bitter all the time.
The attitude will show up in your work too. I can think of several deveopers at my previous job whom, after a couple weeks on the crew, came to me and actually thanked me for my help, and mentioned that I may be the first sysadmin they've had to work with who didn't have 'head up ass' syndrome.
If you don't like the way your department is run, do somethign about it. If you can't, because you aren't allowed, perhaps you overestimate your position in the corporate food chain.
8 people and around 170 sun servers is *not* rediculous, one of the benefits of heterogenous networks and unix is that one admin can handle a lot of machines.
Oh.. another note.. (Score:2)
The fact that they work 9-5 should tell you something; they have a life.
Not working 9-5 as sysadmin usually means you can set your own schedule. Yes, you have to do 3am upgrades sometimes.. but, you should also be able to work shifts that meet your lifestyle requirements.
And how do you compare 'rank' between programmers and sysadmin? I don't understand.
Re:Now wait a minute. (Score:4)
I thought the slashdot crew was US based...
Stealing people (Score:2)
Whether Japan or the US, the same thing happens in corporate life. You cannot steal an employee, you can only convince them to get up and walk of their own accord.
As I call, Atari did that... (Score:2)
Re:No sympathy for programmers (Score:3)
> we respect your work... but programming is creative
Then you obviously haven't run into an excellent systems administrator.
The application programming team has quite a bit investested in a single-threaded billing code that is horribly inefficient and can't get the bills out on time. What does the creative systems administrator do after the obvious tuning efforts? Looks at the way your processes hit the CPUs, then adjust the time slices of the scheduler, disables interrupts on specific system boards, and errects processor sets to get you that 25% boost because your team has programmed itself into a corner.
He then goes on, after a process trace, to tell you where your programming efforts have failed, beyond the obvious single-threaded issue. You pull information from the database via TCP/IP, and you only pull a single record at a time, so you're stuck in the overhead of database transactions. And yes, he has the metrics in hand to prove it. Fix your code, he says!
A good systems administrator is proactive. He anticipates things before they are going to happen, and either solves them before they happen, or has a solution ready for when it does happen. And he keeps the programmers honest. Do you want me to throw more hardware at this, or do you want them to fix their code, Mr. Corporate Accountant?
You can't say that a systems administrator isn't creative. If they're not creative, either their job doesn't place weighty demands on them, or they're not very good at what they're doing.
That aside, a systems administrator keeps your systems alive. Do you want a good one, or a bad one?
No sympathy for programmers (Score:2)
At my current place of employment, it appears that the application teams are considered to be of a much higher caste than us lowly system administrators. They work a purely 9-5 day, and schedule any system work for deep off-hours. Code releases? Done during business hours.
It's crazy. I mean, we're the ones responsible for keeping the systems running. You can write the best code in the world, but if you have a bad sysadmin, your data can be compromised. Heck, your app may not even run at all! And of course, we end up doing the chode work like installing JDK's, installing Oracle (since root needs to run the root.sh script, we have to be around every time Oracle is installed).
There are 8 of us, and 170+ Sun servers. Each programmer works on only one application. That's not to say their job isn't important -- but the world isn't all about programmers. Us sysadmins get called at 3:30am when a disk fails. Or when the power goes out. Or when some application bonehead deletes their
And you say programmers have it rough...
Oh, and I make 2/3 what programmers of my same rank do.
But at least I get root. And they don't.
Re:But sysadmins are techno-janitors! Not flamebai (Score:3)
A good unix sysadmin is really a jack of all trades. You need to know bits and pieces of many things, as well as be a good troubleshooter and be able to keep up with the information glut and fast moving industry. Maybe you see htat sysadmin playing a game at 3 in the afernoon, but if something needs to be done at 3am who does it? The sysadmin, everyone's job is important and everyone contributes doesnt matter what you do (unless your a llama).
And DeVry/ITT tech will train a monkey not a sysadmin.
Re:Now wait a minute. (Score:2)
I think Dodi Al-Fayed and Princess Diana would disagree.
Re:Better Business Bitchings (Score:5)
It's unfortunate that you are unfamiliar with other countries' business practices and can get modded up for an exagerated but boldly-stated dismissal. The job situation in Japan is not what it is in America. In fact, it's my impression that no other country pampers their IT the way we get pampered, but I'll stick to what I know.
In Japan, when you join a company, the job is your life. Your friends and family are distant second. 10-12 hour days are the norm. You skip lunch and dinner not infrequently. If you leave at 5, they look at you funny, as though you're not a team player. And, if you're not a team player, you don't get promoted or get raises.
It's virtually impossible to get fired, but I can think of better things to do than languish in an entry level position my entire life. Moving to a new job is difficult, because a primary virtue is Loyalty, and if you quit your old job, how can they expect you to be Loyal to them?
The Japanese are in the process of westernizing to a more individual society. People are just now daring to try to change jobs, and wondering exactly why the hell they're spending so much time on the job. Management is starting to notice this, and I expect they're a bit panicky. Which is unfortunate.
They have a long way to go before they arrive at America's freedom. When I leave work at 8, at least half my office is still here chugging right along. There's nothing like working in Japan for a while to make you appreciate American Corporate Culture. I'm more than looking forward to getting back home.
Ethics of job hopping (Score:2)
But I've almost always jumped from job to job because I was bored, not for the money.
Apple's policy (Score:2)
The official reason is that the credits list is not inclusive of all engineers of the project.
The REAL reason is that all the microsoft headhunters would pretty much try to hire all the programmers on the credits list.
Sure, many Mac users were not happy, but it keeps good Apple employees, and Apple didn't slide downhill since. IS it wrong? The "slavery" comparison is a bit strong, but I work in the US, so maybe it's different.
Re:Apple's policy (Score:2)
All the Apple applications that ship with the OS: text editor, disk utilities, Quicktime, etc. Actually not many of them had easter eggs (that I'm aware of), but the major change is that the about windows for all of them no longer list the individual programmers. I fail to see how this can be effective; just hang around Apple's mailing lists for awhile and you'll collect lots of engineers' names.
Better Business Bitchings (Score:5)
Couple this with the long hours, the draconian employment contracts, and the insane deadlines, and I begin to wonder if this guy has a serious point.
First off let's get real about the situation, no one is forced to work anywhere, well at least not in the United States. If a company you're working for places you in situations like these, then you are the idiot for staying there at any case. There are jobs out there and anyone who says there aren't is probably under qualified to move along unto another company that is going to treat them better.
As for Draconian contracts, again taking a look back to just two years ago, and even with some companies up to date, one has to stop and give themselves a reality check, scenario: You drive a truck all day breaking your back lifting heavy boxes for 14 hours, salary about 40,000.00. You run around all day trying to catch criminals, average salary for a cop 35,000.00.
Take a look at a typical programmer, Unix admin, network engineer; 50,000 - 150,000.00 without having to break your back, duck bullets, etc. Atop that most companies give you healthy benefits, cool offices, gizmos galore.
Having my fair share of being `around' sometimes I stop and wonder how I even get paid my salary when things have become so easy for me. One thing I always am is humble about the situation since I see how much worse things could be. So to this guy and his write up, I think he took a specific situation overboard without looking at the entire picture.
Re:Human Resources 101 (Score:2)
Every company I know of calls employees 'human resources'. It doesn't mean they mine us, or burn us for eletricity. I don't know why you find the word so insulting.
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Re:Wow, there needs to be a law against this. (Score:2)
They are not stopping anybody from leaving, they're just not actively advertising who works for them. There's a big difference there.
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Re:Human Resources 101 (Score:2)
Main Entry: resource
Pronunciation: 'rE-"sOrs, -"sors, -"zOrs, -"zors, ri-'
Function: noun
....
d : a source of information or expertise
So, 'human resource' would make it a 'human source of information or expertise'. How is this misuse?
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Re:Wow, there needs to be a law against this. (Score:4)
That's why there aren't many tech companies that don't try to keep the list of their employees secret.
Sure, blacking out their faces might be a little extreme, but you can understand their reasoning. They might be treating them very well, but they are afraid someone will offer them double the salary just to get them out of there, and they can't afford to double everyone's salary to keep them.
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Re:But sysadmins are techno-janitors! Not flamebai (Score:2)
While it's true that developers play a very important role in a business, so also do systems administrators. In the environments I've worked in, the application itself is nothing without a working server on which to host it. My current place of employment, as well as my last, relied heavily on web applications and interfaces for their customers. If those servers go down, those applications that the developers worked so hard on, are worth naught.
It takes all kinds to run an enterprise. While I couldn't write a C program to save my life, most of our application developers also couldn't troubleshoot an ecache parity error on a Sun Enterprise 10000 domain either.
It's best described, I think, as a "symbiotic relationship". The fact that you seem to be rather hell-bent on the idea that developers are *more* important than the sysadmins is rankling. We all have important, but very different, jobs to do, none of which requires more skill than the others.
"During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I was riding the pogostick."
How dare you compare this to slavery! (Score:5)
The employer's duty is to pay the employee the negotiated salary, stock options and benefits for services rendered. It was a consentual transaction.
Comparing this to slavery only insults those who have been and still are subject to slavery in its true form, and illustrates just how ignorant you are.
In case you need a refresher on what slavery is: slaves are those who are forced to work and produce without consent. They are forced. They have no choice. Attempts to escape captivity results in force, often deadly.
Slavery? Ha! (Score:2)
Re:Ethics of job hopping (Score:2)
I havenever taken a counter-offer, only because I was never been unhappy solely based on salary, so unless the offer was 'you can move to a different department and work from home', no counter-offer would have made a difference.
If you plan on job hopping, by all means go the temporary/contract/consultant route. But where I have actively sought a different employer after being in a position at a year or less, it was not something I planned, it was because either I had changed, or the job had changed.
Re:Cultural Miscue (Score:5)
There is still a very strong opinion in Japan that you should spend your whole life in a single company. Sure, that way of thinking slowly changing, but it is still a cultural part of Japan. Change, esp. in Japan, happens slowly. Japanese compaines, which are well known for their high quality (and TQM, etc), value their employees as assets to the company. So, it is in the company's best interest not to broadcast their identities, especially in the current Japanese economic climate. The company is not holding the employess back. They have every right to go and ask different compainies for an offer. Basically, the Japanese managers value lifetime employment. Japanese employees are beginning to value it less.
True story: My (Japanese) girlfriend decided to quit her first job after getting serious sexual harrassment (also very Japanese). When she applied for her next job and had been tentatively confirmed, management changed their minds very quickly in the interview when she told them she left her last job, and they didn't care that it was sexual harrasment.
I think a story like this is almost insulting to the Japanese culture. Before you critisize, try to figure out why. The rest of the world isn't like the US. There is something outside the little box you live in.
Work and play (Score:2)
At work, they never mention my name, or anyone else's, with the product. Generally, the only time I get any feedback is when bugs come in, and they're often assigned in a fairly critical manner. But they pay me a bunch of money.
At home, I work on a project with about six others around the world. We usually get at least one fan email a week. And when people report the inevitable bugs, they're always extremely polite. We've also been interviewed by an online gaming site. But, alas, the pay, $0, could be better.
Re:Programmers of the world, UNITE!!! (Score:2)
I saw a great bumper sticker once: "Labor unions: The people who brought you the weekend."
The more I see of kneejerk responses like this:
...the more convinced I am that working conditions are going to have to get back to turn-of-the-century sweatshop conditions before a majority of workers are willing to say, "Gee, wait a minute. This sucks. Remember those days off our parents used to have?"
No. I've yet to see a union that's done anything constructive. All they do is blackmail companies to try and extract unreasonable pay and working conditions.
"The Boss Who Won't Let Go" (Score:2)
Hmm, see also this column [washingtonpost.com] in the Washington Post.
-J
Re:Now wait a minute. (Score:2)
Even if they get ripped in the press its not a bad deal. There is no such thing as bad press.
I Agree (Score:2)
When I was first hired at my company, within a month some random person at another company called me trying to hire me. I have no idea how they got my extension (since I hadn't given it out to anyone, and no one had been at this extension before I got there), but after realizing what they wanted I claimed that they must have the wrong person and I forwarded them to my boss who chewed them out and I'm sure I heard him yelling into the phone from down the hall. Hehehe, I've actually been considering using this as an excuse to ask for a raise: 'See how in demand I am? What are you going to do to keep me here?'. However, I like where I'm at, so I don't really want to step on any toes right now.
However, if anyones willing to pay more than 90k for an excellent programmer in Boulder, CO, I might be willing to entertain some offers
Re:It's Japan, not USA (Score:3)
I actually just posted a statement in agreement to the poster of the story, but now that you mention the cultural context it makes sense. And I know that my views are probably skewed by my American culture. I still don't think it's 'right', but that should be quailified as being 'right' from my perspective as an individualistic American.
Thank you for pointing this out, if I had some mod points, I'd give you at least one or two for being insightful.
Re:Now wait a minute. (Score:2)
Re:Cultural Miscue (Score:2)
Whoa there. You're talking about a country that, in the last 150 years, has done what it took Europe some 600-1000 years. Our culture was able to evolve along with the technology, but theirs was not. I would say, the fact that their society functions at all is fairly impressive. Look at China, Vietnam, Korea (North or South), or anywhere else in Asia, and pick out a country that has done a better job of adapting to modern times.
I'd say, change happens slowly, but less so in Japan than elsewhere...
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
MacPaint by Bill Atkinson (Score:2)
How things have changed. Back when I developed for the Mac, a letter came in from Apple stating that developer's names shouldn't appear on third-party products. Probably something Steve Jobs dreamed up.
Re:Why should we care???? (Score:2)
That's why it's good to preserve your own interests by changing the things you can. What part of "I'm actively looking for a better job" do you not understand?
read the fine print ... (Score:2)
If you don't want to get stuck with something like this, make sure you ask the right questions before you're hired, and get a look at the contract well before you decide to consider the position. Usually these things can be cleared up, but once you've signed on the dotted line you're pretty much locked in.
_f
Haven't you ever wondered... (Score:2)
Re:it's a matter of culture (Score:2)
Re:Cultural Miscue (Score:2)
Reasons (Score:2)
Re:call them? (Score:2)
I work at your typical Global Megacorporation. According to our managers, we're "The Best Place to Work". That's why our company's employees are leaving in droves. I guess they keep it "The Best Place to Work" using their topheavy stack of managers, and regular benefit cuts.
Its gotten to the point where one corporation has taken it apon themselves to do most of their recruiting not from colleges but from the company I work for. On the way to several of the buildings, you'll pass their large billboards advertizing ungodly starting bonuses
Naturally, the company I work for isn't thrilled about losing their techie base. So, naturally, they gave us large raises and actually made our benefits nice... oh, wait, no they didn't. Instead, they sent out an email, saying something to the effect of:
" is in town. They're trying to recruit our employees. Don't let them! They're having a career fair soon. Don't go! Don't even go near on . Also, they're calling people. If you see a call from their recruitment line, , don't even pick up the phone."
How thoughtful of them to assist us, if we decided to leave! I mean, their career fair's address, their job line... they all but forwarded our resumes for us
Ah, but, if I were to leave, I'd miss out on all of the PHB (Pointy Haired Boss) amusements that go on. Like the copying machines...
Like most Global Megacorps, this one manages by slogan. The current slogan is to be "Lean". So, one high level manager saw fit to have the copying machines removed from all over the buildings, to be more "Lean" - save on maintinence costs or something. This runs in cycles. Another manager always comes along, half a year later, and puts the copying machines back, as part of an "efficiency" issue. Both managers get promoted.
Of course, it gets worse. When they took our machines last time, they posted a sign telling us where the nearest copying machine is. How nice! Well, our annoyance quickly turned into amusement as soon as we looked at the sign, and saw the arrow heading across the hall and into the security office. This is the most secure location in the building. It is where they conduct their high-level clearance government projects. To get through the blast-proof door, you have to enter a personalized multi-digit combination on the keypad, wherein it buzzes, and opens, and keeps buzzing until it is closed. It is constantly observed, regulated by the NSA. Noone takes any papers in with them, and likewise, none go out, without special permission. Naturally, I'm sure they'd just love it if we stood there, banging on the door, yelling "Can I come in? I need to make a copy!"
- Rei
Culture Clash in the Making... (Score:3)
This is JAPAN. The culture CANNOT GET MUCH DIFFERENT than the United States.
Corporate Culture in Japan is something totally different than going to the bar after work with a few coworkers, and is much more akin to citizenship in a very patriotic country. Health Club, medical, dental, living spaces, restaurants, movie theaters, all of this can and in some cases usually is provided by the company for their employees. Read up on the RPG Shadowrun to get an example of Japanese Corporate Culture taken to an extreme, then realize it isn't too extreme.
Furthermore, the corporate world of Japan is very much their replacement for the warriors of old. Employment with a corporation borders on feudal vassalship, and this is not only accepted, but considered normal by many. Sitting over here stateside, where an employer wouldn't dare try a stunt like that, and saying that it should be illegal in a society that doesn't match ours is a little bit ridiculous.
Your Mileage May Vary, but that's the reason *I* see for these particular actions, and I don't see what the big deal is.
Re:they are greedy too (Score:2)
Marketing makes unreasonable requests, tries to sneak in late requirements, gives beta customers assurances that any little thing they want they will be in the next drop, never worry about fucking the engineering or operational groups, and whine about teamwork and other groups failing to produce.
Sales lies. To the customers, to Marketing, to Sales, to Engineering, to anyone. It's their job to lie. I refuse to believe that any sales department that has not seen wholesale execution of its staff has suffered unfairly. Gawd I hate Sales.
As for your claim that the engineers who fail to produce are promoted - you are correct. They become engineering management.
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That was crossing the line, but... (Score:2)
Keeping valuable employees is necessary. A company must try to keep their employees, or they will fail. The crucial difference lies in how they do this. My previous employer was smallish on a global scale, but was a huge and successful local ISP. They didn't understand much about how to keep valuable employees, payed extremely poorly, tended to ask for too much of the staff in terms of volunteer time, didn't offer training or benefits packages, and generally treated us all like slaves. Myself and two other teammates in the corporate tech services group brought these concerns to our manager, were told they wouldn't do anything about it, so I left. They since got bought by PSINet and now face an uncertain future. A few good people remain there, but mostly due to inertia (the company did improve their compensation a little after a mini-wave of people left, including myself)... many more good people have left because of the company's lack of respect or reward programs. I resigned when I accepted an offer from a major competitor. When chatting with the GM of the company I was leaving, she tried to get me to stay using a little bit of FUD. Was that dirty tactics or honest misinformation about the company I was going to?
Either way, they held their employees back. The only thing that could have made me stay was loyalty and enjoyment of the workplace. Companies like the Japanese developer (don't forget that we are also talking about a very different culture with we discuss Japan) wouldn't be well tolerated by most North American workers, and lack of mere acknowledgement for your work is likely to drive employees away. We all need pats on the back, money, perks, etc... otherwise we get PUSHED away.
I am a programmer and I think that this is fair... (Score:4)
If I was manager at a high profile game company I would go out of the way not to broadcast the identity of my programmers.
Wow, there needs to be a law against this. (Score:2)
Holland (Score:2)
40 hours week. (Realy!!!)
I leave at six and nobody looks funny at me - then again there aren't that many people left in the building at six (i come in late and leave late).
I don't get the same salary as i would in the US (maybe 2/3). On they other hand, my hourly salary end up pretty much the same as if i was in the US working 12h/day.
<DISCLAIMER>I am not a Dutch citizen, and to be one i would have to stick around for 4 more years</DISCLAIMER>
I'm with you (Score:3)
True way to happiness
Hype? (Score:2)
If this is truly the case (pure speculation of course)then the programmers probably even agreed to it willingly, enjoying the joke.
/me notes marketing strategies for his future gaming company
Now wait a minute. (Score:3)
More likely, thought, that the management is comprised of a bunch of assholes....
Re:Ethics of job hopping (Score:3)
Never, never, never take a counter offer. You'll be gone within 6 months.
Once you prove you're looking elsewhere, your boss *knows* you're not happy, and therefore could leave at any time. So, it's in his best interests to replace you on his terms, while he can, rather than scramble when you do leave.
And of course, once he's replaced you... he doesn't need disloyal old you anymore. Wave good-bye.
If you want to job hop, find a good recruiter. They do exist. Talk to them, explain what you're looking for, and be picky. But don't let on that you're doing this. Sheesh.
Re:they are greedy too (Score:2)
One of the projects I look after is our teleworkers. Currently we use an ISDN line that provides data at 128K until the phone is picked up, then the 2nd BRI is dropped as data and becomes voice. Recently, our supplier of our ISDN routers went out of business. As a result, we took it as an opportunity to investigate other solutions (a Megalink at the office to ISDN lines, or VPN... both result in substantial $$$ savings). My manager sent out a message to all the other groups saying we wouldn't be setting up any more teleworkers while we investigated other options. No sooner did this happen that I was told to order an addon to a PCMCIA adaptor that would connect to ISDN as opposed to POTS. When I mentioned that this wasn't a great idea (no voice cabablility which is essential, don't have a laptop for the new teleworker, plus, nothing on the office end for them to dial into) I was told to just order it, they didn't want to hear about problems.
I'm not the only one either. Over half of our second level group has had loud arguments with management in the last few weeks, and they don't appear to see the problem!So, I spend $400 of taxpayers' money on a piece of gear that we couldn't use. When it showed up, I was told to make it work. When I again brought up these problems, I was told I was "making excuses and putting up road blocks". I actually got in trouble for this!!
Similarly, I was asked to look at different DHCP solutions. I did. Surprise, after costing out W2K, Win NT4, Linux, and standalone hardware devices, Linux came out the cheapest. We have 3 people in the office who are familiar enough to support a Linux based server running DHCP. When I submitted my paper with costs, support issues, and finally my reccommendation, I was told that when writing up the paper there was too much personal prejudice, that Linux wasn't the answer just because I liked it. So instead, we bought a W2K license ($1500) put it on a big Dell Server ($40,000) which serves up addresses to ~500 users. Geez, I've got a 486 at home that could do the same thing running Linux.
So, as I said, I'm looking for a new job. They offer lots of training, I work with a great bunch of people, but management can't admit when they're wrong, can't treat us with respect, and refuse to even consider a technology they know nothing about (not that they know much about any technology, they just think they do).
Okay, rant mode off!Credits, anyone? (Score:3)
Produced by: Three Guys Graphics by: This one tall guy, and maybe a girl.
"anybody dork" should try preview (Score:2)
Programmers of the world, UNITE!!! (Score:2)
I live in a very heavy CAW (union) town. Let me tell you that the employees demand VERY reasonable conditions and pay in exchange for giving their time to make the company money. My city wouldnt be in the place it is today had it not been for the community-centered policies of the union and its leadership. Bosses/owners will exploit (to no end) if people dont stand up and demand to be treated well. Workers do the work - workers should realize the reward.
call them? (Score:2)
I am BOTH of *THERE* bosses, I will simply voice my compalint.
A manager who got it... (Score:2)
Good, enlightened managers will do their best to keep their employees happy so they don't have to think about leaving the company. Of course, managers may not be able to provide everything that their employees want. It's possible that people may leave because they want greater challenge or want to work on different technology, and the manager can't offer it. But to use threatening or coercive means like this to keep employees from straying seems mostly counterproductive to me. (And yes, I'm commenting on American practices, even though the original article is about Japan.)
Re:Two Japans (Score:2)
Re:Two Japans (Score:2)
Yeah, but so what? The fact notwithstanding that I don't originally come from there (I'm from the same socialist paradise you post from), I never did any of these things, Mitsubishi however did. This isn't liberal style "ethnic guilt" e.g. you're white therefore you're a slaver... this is fact.
RE: What of the unctuousness of North America on Nuclear Armaments? A country with a near insatiable demand for slave-made imports?
What's your point?
RE: A country that once enslaved people based on their looks?
So did Canada - beware of getting on your high horse.
RE: A country that locked up anyone who looked Japanese because, well, simply because they looked Japanese?
They locked em up - and treated them fairly well. To my recollection there was no Bataan death march in North America. Nor were they forced into slave labor and killed and tortured.
Re:Work and play (Score:2)
Right On!
Preach it, Brother..!
Ethics is easy... (Score:3)
...just apply the Golden Rule.
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.
This case of blacking out the programmers faces is clearly a violation of the Golden Rule, and therefore, unethical.
Re:Cultural Miscue (Score:2)
For young hi-tech Japanese these days, job loyalty doesn't mean much more than it does to their American counterparts.
Perhaps not loyalty in the sense of sacrificing one's free time / etc. to the company, but there's not nearly as much job hopping as you seem to think--mainly because the people who do take full-time jobs take them because they want job security, which is something Japanese companies are (even now) much more willing to offer than American companies. Even Japan's labor laws prohibit "arbitrary" firing of full-time employees, though you can of course find a reason for anything if you look hard enough. There was also a survey done recently by a government office which showed a slight increase compared to 2-3 years ago in willingness to stay at a single job indefinitely (as with all surveys, take with as many grains of salt as you need).
The fact that management is concerned about losing employees should indicate that it is, if not a major problem, at least a possibility.
Yup. Going from 0.1% to 1% is a tenfold increase--anyone would be worried at a tenfold increase!
No, I don't have any actual data on frequency of job changing on hand at the moment, but I can tell you my friends (same age group, early-mid 20's) are all pretty shocked when they hear how often Americans change jobs. (Incidentally, the number I heard a few years back was once every 2-3 years... has that changed significantly?)
Even in high-tech, the offices are cramped, the hours are long, and the bureacracy is thick. And don't forget the infamous Tokyo commute.
As opposed to American companies, where you have to run across the building to talk to a coworker, the hours are long, and the bureaucracy is thick. And don't forget the infamous Beltway parking-lot traffic jams.
It all depends on your definition of "better".
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BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL
Desparate measures a good sign? (Score:2)
Employers have long put forth free market theories to justify their positions. These theories assumed roughly equal bargaining power and good information for both parties (employer and employee), neither of which was really present. Now that employees do have good information, and, we might assume better bargaining power, can we expect employers to stop citing economics and start doing silly, desparate things? I think so.
All you need to know (Score:2)
After changing jobs a couple times and finding a better environment to work in, I've found I actually read it again.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
Re:No.. not really.. (Score:2)
Fact of the matter is no one would have these jobs if people individually took the initiative to resarch the corp they are going to work at. In the technical field we are in the unique position not to ask for work but to take a position.
Even in the econmys current state for skilled people there are 100s (yes 100s maybe 1000s) of companies that are clawing all over eachother for good talent.
If you are one of these people DONT COMPLAIN. Get another job and this time really RESEARCH the corp your going to sign a contract to. Make sure you know the culture and that you would fit in. Ask other employees about the place (most people in HR will even give you #s of people within the company you can talk to).
Remember money is not the only factor (though it is a big one) you have to be happy to. Personally I spent 3 months job hunting 2 years ago and turned down over 15 offers some higher than what I make now. But after all the research and time I found a company I am truly happy with (of course time and econmics can change things but for now they are excellent). I enjoy work (thou sometimes the clients and the sales people tick me off) the culture is great and even if it is not the most stellar salary I feel I am fairly compensated and appriceated for my work.
This is not the perfect company (I would say its on the good end though) and it did not walk up to me right away I had to search for it. It takes a lot of guts to turn down a good offer (even when you know the company is crap) but its well worth it to hold out.
For those of you that are saying "Well I dont have those skills that employers are clawing for." I say "GET THEM THEN" no one is going to hand you a silver platter or a box with root. You have to build your skills on your own (unless you got a rich family or something). And yes learning these things may take work so just live with it.
Oh and as for the sysadmins.....if you can convert a mainframe application into a web based application that is not only user friendly but also intergrates 3 other systems without trashing the orignal mainframe then....what are you doing as a sysadmin????
please dont be a reference!? (Score:2)
I don't consider this a bad thing really, I'm glad my employer wants to hang on to me. On the other hand, I would have given anything to have been "stolen" (or rescued) from my last job...
Re:they are greedy too (Score:2)
Being a programmer is generally a thankless job. I think its a mistake for this company to take away some of their employee's kudos. I also fail to see how obscuring their faces on TV is going to protect them from recruiters. All a headhunter needs is your name and/or phone number to contact you.
Sounds Crazy (Score:2)
So, in a way, the craziness you propose is not so crazy after all.
Virg
Japanese emplyment: A pig in a poke (Score:2)
BSOD for Employees?? (Score:2)
A really sad little drama, really. Corporations these days want their employess to act like entrepeneurs. This, of course, is code for employees to take on responsibility for their own training, career management, etc. so that the shareholders don't have to. This is otherwise known as getting something for nothing.
Juxtapose this amusing trend with the Japaenese BSOD over their staff's faces and things really start to get bizarre.
Feels like the making of a William Gibson novel...
What about other people? (Score:2)
-Being discouraged from presenting at security conferences (professional ones, not HOPE2K or DefCon)
-Having to fend off attempts by my current employer to seize intellectual claims of ownership to research that occurred before I began employment with this company
-Being told that any projects I was working on with other people on the side would become property of this company
-Being told that the solution to the above-mentioned problem was simply "Just don't put your name on it."
I think it's terrible that so many IT companies have started doing this, but it's really not just programmers who are suffering under it. And in a lot of ways, I can understand how some of the things that are a problem for me shouldn't be for a programmer either. After all, when you're hired to write code, that code naturally should belong to the company paying for it, just as I consider any reports or work to be the property of whoever funds them. But research I do on my own time, to keep my own skills up? Good lord! Based on that logic, this company owes a royalty to every company I ever worked at!
Just say NO to draconian employment contracts (Score:2)
A contract is an AGREEMENT, thus, you should never sign it is there is anything in it which which you don't agree, like pre-employment poop-scans.
You always have a choice: http://www.ip4noman.org/refusal/ [ip4noman.org]
Here is how you *should* treat employees (Score:2)
http://joel.editthispage.com/stories/storyReade
No.. not really.. (Score:2)
I could mention the insane contract clauses that are routinely signed (ok, maybe not in California) that say you cannot work for a competitor (or anyone who competes in the same field)..
How about never sending employees off on any conferences or any sort of professional course, despite repeated requests ? that happens too.. (Oh, we don't have the cash.. but btw, all managers travel Business class)
How about needing to buy books with your own cash, because the company doesn't have any sort of allowance for that ?
My point is that there are lots of companies out there that would try to hang on to their workers at all costs, regardless of the consequences.. they work, very simply on the premise that, if you reduce options, you get "desperate employees" who are "forced" into doing well at their present job.. in other words, they are not "distracted" by other offers...
I've seen all of this and a few more (the Dilbert joke about the PHB making Alice demand all sorts of outrageous things from the client, so she wouldn't be recruited is too close for comfort )...
So... employers help employees better themselves ? not hardly..
Re:You're stats are WAY off (Score:2)
Yes, they have great benefits lots of the time, but they don't make much, have longer hours that require them to do more work in their free time than most people in IT, and earn that extra pension since they do jobs that people often choose not to do because they would risk death (cops) or being abused by students and parents if they try to stand up for themselves (teachers).
Our CS department is losing 3 teachers, including the head of the department, in the next 2 years, and we asked how they expected to replace them. They told us seniors that they really don't know since any CS professor that's qualified could easily make twice as much in the open market probably, doesn't have to stick around and hold office hours for students, and doesn't have to deal with the BS of being a teacher. If the head of a CS department at a college (which pays more than your average teacher) realizes they are screwed when compared to what other businesses can offer an IT person, then I think you should check your facts on what people really make again.
It's Japan, not USA (Score:2)
It's their life not the company's.
Japan is different from America. I haven't been there, but I'm told that Japanese culture doesn't place quite the premium on individuality that American culture does. Perhaps those who have spent time in both places could shed some light on this.
I have to agree that the face masking was a pretty cowardly move in any case.
Programmers of the world, UNITE!!! (Score:2)
Doesn't suprise me... (Score:2)
stop people acquiring marketable skills. While
you could program in C++, only one person was
allowed near Corba/Oracle/Sybase, ie: the
complementary skills which would allow employees
to easily find another job...
Smid
Retention (Score:4)
In my case, I was looking to move from call center flunkie doing technical support for voicemail (a job I took because I needed a paycheck, doing what it took to earn a living) into the sort of IT position for which I was much more suited, both in terms of experience and temperment.
I couldn't get so much as an interview for an internal promotion, and my requests for use of the company's training materials were turned down because the "request is not related to job functionality." Correct. I had already learned everything I needed to know to do my particular job.
Here's the funny part: My annual review with the company was excellent; my merit raise was higher than average, and in fact, my manager RAISED the raise suggested by my direct supervisor.
Yet they wouldn't let me out of the call position. When the stress of the inbound call line flaked me out, I pleaded to be moved to a non-call job, even with a pay cut, even if that meant pushing a broom and cleaning toilets. "Well," they said, "it's a call center."
Unable to retain me, I left the company, bitter and disappointed about their promise of offering growth and opportunity (in a company with 50,000+ employees!) that translated into being pigeonholed into taking calls for the rest of whatever life I chose to spend with them.
While this particular case was extreme, I've seen promises of growth in other companies as well, and have never once seen them deliver. I wonder if the whole idea of "growth opportunity" is nothing but a b*llsh*t ploy designed to recruit, and then we hope we can string 'em along long enough to make our money off the OJT we did.
Re:But sysadmins are techno-janitors! Not flamebai (Score:2)
I sometimes have to deal with Java 'programmers' these days. They're still stuck in writing process flow diagrams with their 'three month lifecycle' 'product that is creative and saves the face of the company' my ass. I've also worked with guys that integrate SS7 stacks with ATM stacks and *still* understand what the fuck they're doing. Stroke of genius.
I've seen sysadmins trashing a live Oracle filesystem because they never thought of that high reliability SCSI crossmount to the second Oracle server. I've worked with 'Programmers' in the DOTcom cumpanies that only watch their stock options prices.
</BABBLE>
Cut it out people, if you really need to prove that 'your' profession is so much better than somebody else's then by my definitions you're not 'Funny', you're pitifull. It all depends on how good you are in what you do, not in what label you, or your professional owner (sorry had to make it relevant to this discussion with that remark) has classified you.
Cultural Miscue (Score:4)
Notice that this is in Japan. The company mentality is so different from the one here that you are misunderstanding the statement of "Other companies will steal our employees". The working conditions for technical workers are far better than what you will find in America.
Things like company picnics, baseball teams, and retreats and seminars are looked forward to by all employees. That's right. Their concept of yamato means that they put the company before themselves, and then the company takes care of them. Maybe we could learn a thing or two.
they are greedy too (Score:2)
Re:Cultural Miscue (Score:5)