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DSL Providers that Support Multicast & MBone? 13

Posted by Cliff from the getting-the-most-out-of-your-internet-link dept.
kaosmunkee asks: "I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to use the MBone (Multicast Backbone) several years ago when it was just getting underway. I've recently become interested in experimenting with IP multicast and the MBone again, but my DSL provider doesn't provide IP multicast services. Pacbell doesn't either. Does anyone know of a national DSL provider that supports IP multicast?"
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DSL Providers that Support Multicast & MBone? More

DSL Providers that Support Multicast & MBone?

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  • Yes it would be cheaper in terms of bandwidth, but at the moment a lot of the equipment in use at the customer premise, or at the other end of the DSL circuit doesn't support multicast, so it wouldn't work anyway.
  • Yes it would be of great benefit. Something that I spent a couple ISPcon's and cable shows talking about. In your follow-up article you mention that all pieces of equipment need to be multicast-enabled (which is a pain in the butt). A quick informal survey taken at the last couple shows, showed that the majority of vendors had no plans to implement multicast on any of their hardware.

    While the isp's certainly do see a benefit once they multicast enable (I used to run a Sat Network that transfered 20-30mbit/sec of multicast traffic). We made pretty good inroads into the cable isp's and smaller dsl providers. The big guys had too much money tied up in equipment that wouldn't support multicast, or it wouldn't scale well on their network. They (management of said companies) didn't want to hear anything about multicast. It didn't play into their model.

  • Having worked for and help start a company that did multicasting. There is not a lot of support for multicasting on the big DSL companies. Part of the reason is the way their infrastructure is built. Basically they run a pipe, (T1/DS3/etc...) out to a pop. Then they build atm pvc's (at real low bandwidth) to each one of their customers, all the way back to their noc. So their is no benefit to multicast enable their equipment. A couple of the bigger cable ISP's are either multicast enabled now, or will be very shortly once the DOCSIS 1.1 stuff roles out onto their networks. If you are stuck on a non-multicast network and would like to play, take a look at livegate from http://www.live.com [live.com]. It should be useful in getting you connected. You may get lucky with a smaller dsl provider, but most of the time, there aren't that many people that know how or care to enable multicast, and also not all of the Backbone providers support it.

    Hope this Helps,

    Patrick

  • There is one problem with multicast. It's very unreliable. A lot of IOS versions have bugs with it.

    I'm a developer who has an app that uses Multicast. We have to fight to get the routers configured correctly all the time. I doubt you'll see most routers out there setup correctly
  • You refer to no benefit due to the way infrastructure is deployed to the end user but isn't the real benefit realized on the ISP's backbone and at its peering points? I wouldn't think end user bandwidth would be a big win presently because the density of users on any one live multimedia experience is probably pretty low in a neighborhood served by one CO. Of course, if DSL is to be a delivery system for, say, the Super Bowl it would have to solve the problem you describe.
  • I think this is a very important question, thanks to Slashdot for finally posting it. Users should demand multicast connectivity. A multicast enabled internet would dramatically lower the cost of delivering multimedia content, thus making a wider variety of content available. Currently, delivering multimedia to large numbers of users is quite expensive, preventing many from having access to large audiences.

    MSN used to offer multicast connectivity, I'm not sure when they stopped. Anyone know the story on this?

    A few things consumers can do:

    -if you are shopping for an ISP of any kind ask about multicast and try to get the question to get as high up the chain as possible.

    -Sprint offers free multicast connectivity [sprint.net] to its ISP customers, if yours peers with them let them know this. (does Sprint offer multicast connectivity to its consumer grade customers?)

    -check to see if you've got multicast connectivity through this applet [multicasttech.com] from multicasttech [multicasttech.com]. If you are let other people know about your ISP, on forums like dslreports [dslreports.com]

  • AC wrote:

    Just curious, but what incentive is there for DSL providers to enable multicast anyway? I'm not trolling, or faming or anything, just asking a question; you seem to know about it. What are the benefits/costs for the company, benefits/costs for the consumer? What good is it for anyway? Thanks!

    Multicast reduces bandwidth usage because if multiple users are receiving the same live stream on a network only one copy of the stream has to traverse that network.

    The downside of multicast is that it requires every piece of equipment in between the source and receiver to be multicast enabled, there a costs to upgrading network infrastructure to support multicast. Operating a multicast enabled network can be complex because many of the protocols are immature, there are costs to training staff.

    MBONE FAQ [columbia.edu]
    Multicast FAQ [multicasttech.com] from multicasttech [multicasttech.com]
  • I got this reply from Speakeasy [speakeasy.net] when asking about getting on the MBONE:



    Unfortunately, we do not support MBONE connectivity. You could set it up personally with our DSL, but the setup would most likely be suboptimal. You'd need to load all of the proper software kernels and configurations, etc.


    This sounds like their network supports it but not their phone drones.
  • A while back I went to a mutlicast conference. One of the small group meetings there was all about gathering a bunch of ISP guys in a room and having them hash out the problems of delivering multicasting content across peering points. Today, smaller ISPs get charged by bigger backbone providers for peering with them. Charges can be usually by the bit. The arguments centered around things like: "If AT&T multicasts a 20Kbps stream, it'll cross the the EarthlinkAT&T peering point as a single 20Kbps data stream, but then it'll EXPLODE inside Earthlink's networks and all Earthlink's users will get to see the AT&T multicast content while Earthlink only pays AT&T for the single 20KBps. AT&T will be cheated!"
  • remember dsl is "the consumer internet" it is designed forpeople who are non-technical, the most advanced thing they know how to do is look at porn. maybe with a buisness dsl you might be able to get mcast support, but for buisiness dsl is is 2x the price.
  • I haven't seen a response that I felt hit on this point adequately.

    You don't necessarily need your direct upstream provider to do multicast natively. If you can find a provider willing to provide you a tunnel then you just need an appropriate piece of hardware/software to become your end of the tunnel. Linux and FreeBSD boxes work great for this, along with most "real" cisco routers.

    Start with your upstream and ask them two things. 1) If they will provide you with a tunnel and 2) If not, who are their providers so you can get a tunnel from one of them. Generally, the multicast people are fairly open to providing tunnels to people who are even indirectly connected to them, although YMMV.

    Look around a bit with some Google searches and you should be able to find someone who will give you a tunnel.

    --

    --

  • Hmm.

    Perhaps before trolling yourself you might do the same search. I have been looking for this information online; unfortunately, not many people use or even know about Multicast so most Internet providers don't advertise it and most of the "technical support" people don't know what it is. When I called up DSL.net to ask if they supported Multicast, they thought I was asking for more IP addresses(!). It took over 4 hours to find out that they don't support it or plan to support it in the near future.

    Thanks for playing, please try again.


    -kaosmunkee
  • Thanks. I checked out livegate, looks like a nice solution. Now, if I can just find a well connected site with an MBone connection that wouldn't mind me tunneling through them... heh.

    I am curious about one point: you say that DSL providers have no incentive to enable Multicast on their routing infrastructure. Even if there is no benefit to them on the customer side, surely they'd see a benefit on their inbound side if enough users were using a given service (i.e. it's cheaper to pull in one stream of Linus's keynote than 400)? Or am I missing something?

    Thanks again for your response.

    -kaosmunkee

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