What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers? 116
WGR writes "The City of Ottawa, Canada is starting to re-write its Official Plan, the "charter" for a city. [A few weeks ago] we had a 5 day Smart Growth Summit that was webcast online with discussion groups and web interactivity. Ottawa is fairly strong in the high-tech sector as it is, with NortelNetworks and JDS-Uniphase having their biggest presence here and had over a $1 billion of venture capital last year. But how do you keep a livable city when you expect to have a 50% population increase in 10 years? One idea came from Dr. Richard Florida from Carnegie-Mellon University. He said that "knowledge workers" want to go to places that have the 3 T's, "Technology, Talent and Tolerance". That is, where there already is a lot of technology, where there is a rich artistic and entertainment sector, lots of educational opportunities, where there are a lot of people with similar interests and where there are people from many diverse backgrounds and lifestyles. But not necessarily low city taxes.
Do you agree, and what would be your ideal city to work in?"
A Variety of Factors (Score:1, Interesting)
-Waldo
Re:A Variety of Factors (Score:2)
I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. There are a number of things that make our tech scene great.
Oh, I love Charlottesville. I used to work for Litton, and they offered me a transfer there a couple of years ago. I turned it down, in the end, because I didn't like the position.
But, ah, Charlottesville. Friendly people, beautiful Virginia countryside all around, low real estate prices (compared to Toronto), low taxes (compared to what the Canadian government does to me every two weeks), and FedEx doesn't have to go through hell to try to get my rust-free Arizona car parts to me. My 1976 Dodge Ram fit in perfectly there.
[sigh]
I can't help myself . . . (Score:1)
Or T3's
My vote's for NYC (Score:2)
Who cares. I was born here, and while it's no place for hardware types, it's coastal, has damn near every type of restaurant available, and there's always something to do. At the end of the day, I want to leave the sysadmin work back at the office and kick back. At least I have more options than staying at home playing video games, although I'll do that pretty often as well.
Being within 40 minutes of most of your friends helps. And for me, the import shops are key. The only thing that I'd really like to see is a decent amateur 802.11 effort here. Two access points on one street and another a few miles away doesn't count.
Re:My vote's for NYC (Score:2)
Re:My vote's for NYC (Score:2)
Helpful or not, I pick NYC, and more importantly, I *did* list why. Perhaps if Ottawa had the variety that NYC does, then I'd consider moving there. Perhaps it has the same appeal as NYC, and I'm just unaware of it. Either way, pay attention to what I wrote as a whole, not just the subject line.
Of course, you'd rather go ahead and troll. I see how that's helpful.
My experience (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree with what Mu* said in general but here in Atlanta I have not really noticed the tendency to "milk to cow". For instance I live downtown with a friend of mine a stones throw from the CNN building and we only pay $1150 a month including utilities for a 2bed/2bath apartment. I think this is mainly because Atlanta just grew at a good rate with the whole boom in the 90's instead of exploding like Silicon Valley.
One of my biggest greviances with Atlanta is the lack of a decent public transport system. And by that I mean we dont have a subway, and if you live in Atlanta dont even try to say those MARTA trains constitute a subway. It only runs north/south and east/west and has way too few stops. It would be nice to have something like what Washington, D.C. has where the subway goes all the way out to the suburbs and there are parking areas at the end points.
I think a very important part of any city that wants to attract Techies is that they need to be a diverse and tolerant city. One thing I have a hard time doing is putting up with bigots/racist/holyier-than-thou types. I was raised with a philosophy of "dont knock it till you've tried it" and I try to live up to it. I believe that everyone should be able to live the way they want to live. I will not live somewhere where I am told I need to change or the people's general attitude is that I am the spawn of satan for not agreeing with them (I went through highschool once already and I would rather not do it again).
As far as taxes go I feel that anything above 30% or so is excessive unless the government can really explain it. Here in Georgia I actually lose more money to state taxes than I do to federal taxes and social security which I dont think is right... Georgia doesn't have an army last time I checked.
Wow that kindof rambled a bit.
Basically I look for interesting Technology Companies, Tolerance, Diversity, public transport, and a good education system(I will have kids one day).
Of course, with education it is not so much the city but the individual schools that are good or bad.
Rich
Atlanta grew much faster than Silicon Valley (Score:1)
Atlanta (Score:1)
Okay, maybe I'm biased in that Atlanta doesn't fit the 'stereotypical tech city' template for me to begin with. Main reason, I used to live around there myself (Snellville, to be more specific). Loved it when I lived out there, and look at moving back in about 5 years.
Atlanta may not have the public transportation factor, but I think what makes Atlanta most appealing to me, is room. Folks in the Atlanta area don't have to crowd into a geographically defined/limited area, as is so often found in other cities (Salt Lake, mountains all around; many west coast cities, ocean on one side, mountains on other, etc). All of the suburban areas surrounding Atlanta provide the places to live, and the 'city proper' provides all the advantages of a big city without you having to actually live in it. There's also the more 'laid back' atmosphere in general, but that comes with tradition and custom more than anything.
My 'ideal' for a tech city would be one not of a huge, built-up downtown area, but of nice, reasonably spread-out suburban areas, with the bustle and action of downtown when I want it, and relative peace and isolation when I want it. I've done my time in 'cube land' over the years at work , I want some room, dammit!
Re:Atlanta (Score:2)
You've just described what many urban planners hate nowdays: sprawl. Everyone is supposed to emulate Portland now and pack more people and businesses into less space. Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire. Where have you been?
Re:Atlanta (Score:1)
Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire.
Ever stop to wonder why American neighborhoods decay in a few decades, but European cities thrive for centuries?
Re:Atlanta (Score:1)
An AC says:
Keep on taking in refugees and immigrants from 3rd World countries and you will have the same situation. From the recent race riots in the UK, I'd say that at least the UK is already moving into that phase now.
Actually, I live the US. My question wasn't intended to be condescending, just an attempt to spark a new topic of conversation.
Portland isn't dense (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Portland isn't dense (Score:1)
Yeah, it's really starting to suck out there; I hate seen vast tracks of what was once very nice farmland get rolled over by some particularly ugly housing developments. Though OTOH the core of the city is very nice as-is, I would hate to see a lot of it get torn down or whatever. But the growth out there is too high for the area to keep up, I think.
Even Baltimore (where I'm currently living) has higher density than Portland, and most of the buildings here are only 2 or 3 stories high.
Re:Portland isn't dense (Score:2)
Then why is it that every time anyone mentions anything about urban sprawl, Portland is always mentioned as a metro area that manages growth the "correct" way and the example that should be followed?
Thanks for the link. It made Anchorage even more attractive.
Re:Portland isn't dense (Score:1)
This is an Urban Legend.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Re:Portland isn't dense (Score:1)
Re:Portland isn't dense (Score:1)
And, just as an FYI, the typical urban sprawl style of development is entirely an outcome of legally mandated social engineering.
Re:Portland isn't dense (Score:1)
By what perverse, freakish aberration did that two-page text chart need to be 1,500Kbytes???
View from a resident (Score:1)
The problem with these high tech fast-moving cityscapes is that they're expensive to start up and maintain, so that funding comes at the expense of other aspects of city management.
Re:View from a resident (Score:2)
Again, this is classic Canadian idiocy. "What can the GOVERNMENT do, spending LOTS OF DOLLARS, to get suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpeople to come and live and work here, and thus increase the TAX BASE?"
Lower the taxes, increase the salaries, and get in some decent jobs. It won't happen, so what they'll do instead is jack up the taxes to pay for a couple of skating rinks named after a couple of French Canadians, or something.
just one thing (Score:1)
Re:Come to Florida... Fort Myers (Score:1)
Re:Come to Florida... Fort Myers (Score:1)
Re:Come to Florida... Fort Myers (Score:1)
Re:Come to Florida... Fort Myers (Score:1)
Today? (Score:2)
Re:Today? (Score:1)
With the internet, VPNs, and the cost of office space, why don't we see more companies let most of their tech employees telecommute? Then it wouldn't matter much at all where they were located. I can do without the corporate group hugs and pep rallies (ala Steve the Monkeyboy) as well as the commute whether it be driving behind some big ass SUV or having to sit near the mutants on public transportation.
Re:Today? (Score:1)
Well then you need to move a 20 minute walk from your job like me
The American God.... (Score:1)
Re:any large southern city (Score:1)
Vancouver! (Score:3, Interesting)
Public Health Care (Score:2)
Other elements I think are important, in order:
You Disgusting Blood Sucking Socialists! (Score:1)
"Public" health care? Your health is YOUR problem, not mine. Don't rob me at gun-point because you're too stupid to buy your own health insurance or find your own doctor, or prepare when you DO have a job for those times when you DON'T.
The best places I've lived have always been the ones with the least taxes. Those were also the places with the most available doctors, the most reachable churches and community organizations, the easiest regulations, and the most friendly neighbors.
Along with that came nearly non-existant crime, little or no "drug" problems, no gangs, tollerance for race/sexual-preference/religion/style.
Before you go decrying how "public" services are required, remember that no matter how well those "public" services seem on paper, they always cost more than the same service provided by interested, involved individuals.
It's too bad that logical thinking required by high-tech work does not extend into other parts of peoples lives. On the other hand, the 'Net is a hotbed of support for individual rights, so maybe those who haven't yet applied logic to social issues are a decreasing minority.
I certainly hope so.
Bob-
What's worth being taxed for, and what isn't? (Score:1)
If you let people ingest whatever the heck they want, and abolish the DEA, the ONDCP...FOUR OUT OF FIVE jail cells across the nation...then you might actually have some money left over to give to people who NEED medical services but can't afford them.
You do know there are POOR people in this country, right, not just 100k+ programmers who are currently out of a job?
If you can support a full-fledged war on the citizens of your own country, but balk when asked to actually help some people in need...well, fuck you then. Unfortunately, most people (voters) either do, or are too stupid to see what they're doing.
If you believe that the government has no right to collect an income tax, then I agree with you. But we both know this isn't going to happen. I can live with that. The gross misappropriation of these funds that goes on, however, is really unforgivable.
BTW, for the inevitable AC that will suggest that ending drug prohibition will strain either the existing or theoretical health system: either understand how much safer legalized and regulated drugs will be than their street counterparts, or simply assert that people who have medical problems directly resulting from drug use are forced to cover it themselves. *shrug*
Re:You Disgusting Blood Sucking Socialists! (Score:1)
Sure it is. A person should be directly responsible for their own well being as well as others in their family. Forcing a person to pay for the services used by a total stranger is nothing less than theft. If I want to help people who can't pay by donating funds to charity hospitals, that's my choice. Making it an entitlement and subsidizing poor choices only makes the problem worse and opens the door for systematic fraud.
"Other Peoples Health Care" (Score:1)
Or do you expect me to be happy to pay for someone elses accupuncture at gun-point?
What about Chinese medicine? Powdered Tiger Claw, paid for by taxes?
The alternative is to have someone else decide what is or is not health care. As with all taxes, someone else decides what to pay for with my money. Or, if I'm lucky, I get something I want paid for by your money, whether you like it or not.
Oregon took the most intelegent aproach to "socialized" medicine I've ever heard of. They used logic and reason, and the plan failed.
They ranked all diseases and procedures by cost and effectiveness. The greatest benefit/cost items, such as medical checkups for pregnant women and immunizations, ranked highest. The most costly and least effective, such as keeping newborn babies with serious birth defects alive artificially until they died anyway, were ranked lowest.
They then took their proposed budget, and started at the top of the list. When they ran out of money, they said, "We can cover all this, and nothing else."
When people saw the kinds of things that didn't make the list, the project was scrapped. There were a large number of people who thought what didn't make the list was vital "health care", and rejected it due to what could not be covered.
Places like Canada have discovered that trying to cover everything will bankrupt a system, because people will use it for everything.
Health of the individual is the individuals business. Yours is not mine, so don't even try to make me like paying for your convenience.
Bob-
Ideal City (Score:1)
techies want what everyone else wants (Score:1)
I think the question asker really has the bulk of the work already done in identifying some of the semi-unique techie draws, but how can you really accomplish them? A town itself usually has little to do with whether or not they become an artistic mecca or some of the other draws, and in many examples the tech would later push out thye artists or many of the other appeals of a city.
What can a city government realistically do to attract a technology economy? Well, probably it's bring the jobs there.
I live in san francisco and boulder, and silicon valley really has little current native appeal. At one point the area may have been beautiful, unique, and full of the arts. Now it is sprawling, close to the same as every other major sprawl and has pushed a majority of it's artists out of town or out of the state.
But if you work in tech silicon valley is still (or maybe was until recently) the golden fleece for high-end jobs, plenty of possibilities, and the chance to work on stuff like you have nowhere else. That's really because of the employers in the area. Take them all and move them to anchorage and I would most likely move there as much as i hate to admit it.
Boulder county is well on it's way to getting it's tech community that it decided it wanted (and trying to ruin itself oalong the way, but hell thats how it goes). The reason? They give fat, fat tax incentives to large nationals and multinationals that want to move portions of their operation there.
I mean, is there really any other way it's ever worked? I can't imagine that you could get all the workers to move there before the jobs came. In this case the chicken certainly comes first.
A few point for Montreal (Score:1)
I can't comment on the relative merit of other cities vs. Montreal since I had never stayed outside of Montreal for an extended period of time, but here are some good point for my city :
Downside include :
Anyway, Montreal is not the no. 1 high-tech mecca in North-America, but a nice place to live with a good tech foundation.
Re:A few point for Montreal (Score:2)
Absolutely true. Fantastic food everywhere and open 'till late.
Also note that most buildings are almost uninsulated and the general housing stock is somewhat elderly.
Again, the housing is generally a step or two below US standards. This means fewer amenities, smaller rooms, more worn buildings, etc.
Actually I'd say better then Gulliani-era NYC. Plus much more accessible & much cheaper though after awhile Comedy Festival / Carrifiesta / Jazz Festival / Grand Prix / Gay Pride / Franco Follies / Fete Nationale / St. Patrick's / etc. get to be a bit much.
Lots (lots!) of government meddling in businesses. Some industries get big breaks, free buildings, employees underwritten, big grants, etc. & others don't. Success is as much about currying political favor & the public teat as it is about sales.
By US standards very low crime rates. When I first moved to Montreal I thought from watching TV news they must be the worst drivers in the word. Then I realized that without the US's daily parade of gunshots & the like single-car accidents were as close as they could come to "if it bleeds it leads" stories.
On the other hand the service isn't all that great & the language police can go after you if your website is in the province & isn't sufficiently bilingual.
In my case I figured about 1/2 US rates before the exchange rate.
Long cold winters although the city is designed to handle them, all enclosed subway, vast "Underground City". Frankly I find winters in Montreal to be less of a hassle then in Boston as the plowing on streets & sidewalks is fantastic and sidewalk obstructions are intelligently kept against buildings.
Canada's economy lags the US's, Quebec's lags the rest of Canada's.
Has numerous businesses like SoftImage, ZeroKnowledge, chemical, pharmaceutical & aviation businesses plus lots of Nortel but no, no overwhelming ones like Corel or Nortel HQ. On the other hand this may well be a plus.
Also being in Canadia US companies overlook or avoid services up here: no TiVo service, expensive shipping across the border, anything that requires a Zip code to confirm won't work, etc.
It's a fantastic place to live but I wouldn't try to start a business here. Did I mention the highest taxes in North America?
Re:A few point for Montreal (Score:1)
Are you serious? What about personal/not-for-profit sites? Are you required to *know* French to live there, or what?
BTW, also lamenting the death of NYC nightlife, but Giuliani's almost gone
Re:A few point for Montreal (Score:2)
They may not actually do any business within the province (example a high-tech software package that is only applicable to specific engineering practices not used in Quebec) but they must support hypothetical if impossible quebecois customers.The situation for non-profit sites is less clear but is likely the same, personal sites are apparently yet to be determined.
This is all new territory for the OLF and of course they like to make up "law" as they go along but for now it's usually best just to host one's material out of province.
As to knowing French, no you're not required and indeed there are many native Montrealers who don't have a working knowledge. However to run a business it's required as the provincial government works only in French and there are laws regarding the use of French within offices over a certian size, French in business communications, etc. Certianly it makes life much easier.
Finally the majority of the population that simply doesn't speak English, particularly outside of downtown Montreal. I lived in a farm town 45 minutes North of Montreal and any unidentified English material (newspapers, catalogs, magazines) went into my mailbox, particularly if they were tech-related. I was one of the few anglophones in town, the only tech one, and the small post office knew it.
The way I explain it to visitors is that Anglophones are like spanish-speakers in Texas or Florida. There's a bunch, particularly in the city but it's a second class society with the minority newpspers, minority TV stations, etc. The west island (Isle de Montreal) is heavily anglophone and there the street language is English but it's like a suburban barrio, drive a few blocks and the stop signs revert to "Arret".
Re:A few point for Montreal (Score:2)
High-tech - Cost of Living (Score:2, Interesting)
One of the worst things I've seen/heard from people who live in the 'high tech heavy' cities/areas, is how high (most often termed 'insane' from them) the cost of living is in such places. The term 'high tech' seems to almost always conjure the idea 'big bucks'. With the pay rates assosciated with the stable tech industries/vendors (read 'not fly-by-night dot coms'), people start to feel there's 'more money in the air', and prices start getting jacked up. Hell, here in the Salt Lake valley, there's a nearly constant difference of 10 to 15 cents per gallon of gas between the west side (more middle and lower incomes) and the east side ('where the money is', the usual sentiment goes).
The point: people will try to milk perceived 'cash cows' as hard as they can, and having high-tech industry/service around, one can suddenly 'feel money in the air'.
As for 'The Three T's', well, think of the truly 'techie' people you know. They almost always can be considered 'eccentrics' in one way or another in relation to 'the general accepted public view' (Goths, anime junkies, Pythonites, Stars Wars fanatics, 'l33t g4m3r phr34kz', 'furries', RPGers, etc, etc. (And yes, I consider myself a few of these, so I have license to poke fun :b ) ). Techie people just -tend- to desire a varied and wide range of things. Hell, just look at a cross-segment of /. topics and threads. ;)
"Your mind is like a parachute. If it doesn't work, you're screwed..."
Re:High-tech - Cost of Living (Score:2)
Re:High-tech - Cost of Living (Score:1, Funny)
Screw cities (Score:2)
I'd much rather live in the country. It's peaceful, cleaner, lower crime, less expensive, and IMHO, a better place to raise a family. I've been to SF, Silicon Valley, Atlanta, Dallas, & Chicago and you couldn't pay me enough to live in any of those places. I think the only reasons I'm living where I'm at now are: 1) I actually like my job and 2) my wife squanders so much money that it's damn near impossible to save up any to move away.
The best programming job I ever had was at a Federal facility that most here would consider to be in BFE. We had lots of cool *nix machines to work on and interesting projects. At noon most of the programmers would go outside and take a walk along the neighboring corn fields. No smog, rarely any cars speeding by , and it was quiet so you could think about the latest algorithm that was puzzling you. Any resources one needed could be found on the internet [They were 10 years ago, should still be the same]. Unless it's an impulse buy, I don't purchase any geek toys at local stores and UPS/FedEx have regular delivery in rural areas. Sure, I would be paid less and it is cold in the winter, but I'd go back in a heartbeat.
My dream city (Score:1)
When my current gig is up (hopefully a long time) I hope to move out of the US.
How should a city handle growth? Build lots of highrises. Like Hong Kong or Vancouver. NIMBYs can go elsewhere.
Telecommuting (Score:1)
Sure the "three T's" are all well and good, but so is quality of life, clean air, clean water, and tollerance of life, not just life style.
If I can't target shoot off the back porch, how am I going to relax after a hard session of coding?
Bob-
What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers? (Score:5, Funny)
Fast internet connections and faster women?
Is the city appealing??? (Score:1)
One of my biggest problems with the city is that it is too cramped. My backyard is over 100 acres of open land, how many of you in the city can say that?? Country life is also a slower pace, everything in the city is rush, rush, rush, but it seems to be the oppoisite in the country.
Even though I live in the country, I still have a high-tech job. I still have my DSL internet and satellite TV, all the ammenities of city life. If I want to do something that is only avaliable in the city, well then I'll drive there. It's not like city people don't drive everywhere anyway, so not much is different there either.
To me, country life has it all, but I know it's not for everyone. Different storkes for different folks I guess.
Taxes are not important; colleges are (Score:2)
In the 1970's, Boston was the center of technology. Currently, Silicon Valley is. In my opinion, the most important factor to generating an excellent technical area is having excellent colleges. (Harvard and M.I.T. supplied many electrical engineers to the Boston area; Stanford and Berkeley provide them to Silicon Valley.)
Without excellent colleges, a place may be incredibly pleasant to live in, but it will have to import all of its technical talent. Although I have nothing against either Carleton University or the University of Ottawa, neither is a world-caliber university.
Don't discount taxes completely (Score:1)
Every city wants to think of itself as a new high-tech mecca, though the two that arguably have the strongest qualifications, Austin and Seattle, each have an excellent university and no state income tax. I don't know whether there's a connection, but it would be an interesting question to study.
Another interesting coincidence: both Silicon Valley and Boston have relative tax havens in their backyards -- Nevada and New Hampshire respectively.
Things I've seen important to folks (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
Oh and lots of sexy people and weed.
Not forgetting also the good bandwidth here compared to the rest of Europe. Lots of Cable and DSL. Also a company starting the Powerline based connects from the powergrid.
Small city no stress no rush.
Downside, the tax here really hurts but at least you get something for it as opposed to having it burnt up funding right terrorist groups etc.
Laterz
Drink of the day
1/2 oz goldschlager 1/2 oz tequila 1/2oz Jack Daniels. Mix and shoot.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
On my last six visits to Amsterdam, I was utterly amazed at how well the Dutch can slaughter cuisines that I previously thought couldn't be messed up. Mexican Stew? When's the last time I've had Mexican Stew in Texas or Mexico? Hahahaha.
There's good Asian food in Holland. And good cheese. The bread is better than the states, but not as good as in Belgium or France. Oh yes, and if fries are your thing, nobody does fries like the Dutch. But beyond that, good luck.
For the rest of it, you're dead on, though. I truly love Holland, although I prefer Den Hague and Haarlem to Amsterdam.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
A few other things a local government can do.
When a local government starts to act in the interests of its local citizens, it will become more attractive to the affluent and highly mobile work force. Make that statement the core of every city council meeting.
the AC
[Ottawa? I could make a comment about warm weather year round, but there is nothing you can do about that
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
Sounds like you want everyone else to adjust to the quirks of a few people. No wonder some geeks have gotten the prima donna reps! Businesses will stay open later if it makes economic sense for them to. Unless Ottawa is going to be importing geeks by the trainload, they aren't going to make up that much of the population, so why make businesses to do things that probably won't be in their favor. Likewise, a landlord with rent control has little incentive to improve and try to attract top paying tenants. Many people move into gated comunities because of the restricted covenants. It one way to make sure that they won't have neighbors who have loud all night parties or have several cars on blocks in the front yard (at least if it's against the bylaws and they are enforced). Also, while the school computer labs with high end hardware, transportation systems, bike paths, etc. sound nice, from other posters, it sounds as if the area is already pretty heavily taxed and probably wouldn't want to pay any more. That is unless the implemented a special geek payroll tax where these workers would pay extra for the amenities used to attract the companies.
BTW, why are so many Slashdotters so obsessed with drinking and partying until practically dawn?
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
My guess is that we^H^H^H they like to be drunk, and up all night?
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
Because it's fun?
C-X C-S
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
Businesses will NOT stay open if local laws prevent it. The point was not to madate late hours but to permit them.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae? Sure theres a bunch but most geeks earn enough to see their kids are in good schools.
No advertising in the schools? Oh yeah - "Not gonna move to Ottawa - They've got Coke in their schools!" I'm sure Corel & Nortel recruiters field this issue all the time...
Bicycle paths? Aren't bicycles those things most geeks hang on walls as some sort of trophies? Sure there are some bicycling nuts but they're mostly like those silly sea kayaks in the Pacific Northwest many geeks have and only used twice in 10 years (but love to try & drop into the conversation to impress MOTAS.)
Hostility against big ISPs? Most geeks just want cheap, relaible, fast & customer service from an ISP that knows NTP from NNTP - couldn't care less if it comes from Rogers, Cox, or anyone else incl. Mom-n-Pop-ISP.
Etc.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
I also forgot to throw in affordable child care. If a municipality doesn't nurture a good child care system in their community, one that businesses can take advantage of, then married geeks will not have any incentive to move up north.
If you are a company trying to build a new R&D centre in Ottawa, and the local ISP doesn't know NTP from NNTP and outlaws servers and has crappy service and capped bandwidth, the geeks will know and won't move to your new building. Word about lousy ISPs gets around, and if Ottawa allows cr@pHome a 20 year exclusive monopoly for lousy, restrictive access, they won't attract much more hi-tech workers than the few trapped there now.
Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae?
Its not the geek with larvae, its a local pool of talent to recruit from over the next few decades. Businesses (errr, good, well managed businesses) choose to relocate based on a large number of factors, and having a tech-knowledgable school system is a big plus. It means that when kids grow up and graduate from university, they will probably stay in the area. Berkeley and Stanford are the reason Silicon Valley exists, as MIT and some Ivy League schools account for Boston's leap into hi-tech. The education effect goes all the way down to grade school level, you can't have top notch universities without a good stream of local talent feeding them.
the AC
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
1) Suburban sprawl on both sides, with a greenbelt in the middle, and a decaying pile of city in the dead center?
2) The high tech community bordering on farmland and/or in suburban hell?
3) Strange laws that say you can't have garage sales, clotheslines, etc
4) 50%+ taxes
5) Enforced francophony
6) Lousy pick of jobs, and low pay in almost all of them
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
Sounds like the brainwashers did a number one you. I most techies that I know wouldn't give a shit if all the fags got AIDS and died a miserable death. They'd also like to see corporations stop spreading the bullshit about a programmer shortage so they can import "cheap" labor from Asia. I waste more time re-implementing stuff that they totally fuck up. They company would be money ahead if they just had me or any of the other native programmers do it from the beginning.
I'm so fucking sick of all this politically correct horse shit. I can't wait for China to try to nuke the coasts. They would be doing us a favor by getting rid of most of people who want special protections.
Re:Oh yeah I forgot... (Score:2)
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:4, Insightful)
As to your employer being wiser to fire the non-whatever-you-are folks and going with your sort: Post their email address and I'm sure someone would be happy to pass your comment along.
Moderators: Read the original before calling this one - I refuse to dignify it with quoting but also refuse to let this sort of garbage go unchallenged. It's on topic because it's exactly the sort of issues that make one place attractive to high-tech employers/employees & others not.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:3, Insightful)
You seem to be afraid that being around gay people will somehow make *you* gay. Sounds to me like you are a latent homosexual. You ought to experiment with this. You might find your real calling in life.
As for San Fran being a cesspool, I'm not quite sure what city you're talking about. I travel quite a bit, and I can honestly say that SF is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. The nightlife, the arts and entertainment, and the city & park life is wonderful, with few equals anywhere in the world.
Spread deadly diseases to the N. American continent? OMG. What planet are you on? Given your reasoning, next we should get rid of all the women. After all, AIDS is transmitted about 10x more easily from the man to the woman during sexual intercourse than it is the other way around. So perhaps God wants to get rid of the gays and the women (please not the sarcasm). You unenlightened twit.
As for the raping of 13 year-old boys, I think we should probably focus more on Catholic priests than on the homosexual community. There are a *lot* fewer priests out there, but there sure seems to be a lot higher percentage of priests raping little children than the homosexual community at large.
Where do you get these wonderful statistics about the average lifespan of homosexuals? I'd like to see even one reference to this, regardless of how dodgy the source might be.
Your opinions are pathetic, the result of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Gays aren't another race of beings. They're really quite similar to you and me. In my experience, the members of the gay community are far more upstanding, on average, than the heterosexual community. Why? I'm not sure. But I've got a hypothesis that it's a result of the gay community being more open to people that aren't like themselves. Tolerance is good. And the Golden Rule is even better. Try practising it once in a while--you might find that a few of those gays you've always hated turn out to be genuinely good people. One might even become your best friend! Without "brainwashing" you to become gay (gasp!).
Or perhaps you should live in your own little world, bashing gays whenever you get the chance. I'm sure that makes you feel better about yourself--you don't have to come to terms with your own sexuality. Gays are nothing to be afraid of. They, with the exception of a few bad apples (I don't need to mention the problem with heterosexuals and rape here...there are bad apples on both sides), don't tend to impose their beliefs on others. They don't go seeking out heterosexuals so they can turn them. They are often in committed, monogomous relationships. They are usually caring, kind people. In short, they're just like the heterosexual community, except that their sexual preferences have required that they develop tolerance. It would be nice if you could learn a little, too.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
Also leases that start on some synchronized date (Sept. 1 for Boston or June 1 for Montreal) are anathama.
That's July 1st in Quebec (Montreal included), for the record.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:2)
Seriously.
Anyplace that has a public nude beach is unlikely to have annoying people like fundamentalists telling others what they should think.
And the bars should stay open until 4AM at the earliest.
Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:1)
South Beach closing = 5 AM.
Downtown Closing = No such thing. Club Space stays open until 2 in the afternoon on Sundays sometimes.
desirable traits. (Score:2, Interesting)
i'm probably a bit odd for a slashdot reader in that i actually _like_ support jobs.... not so much the call center variety, but there's nothing that i like more than working for the IT department in a college or university. the pay isn't always the best, but the low pressure environment and the variety of day to day work makes up for it for me.
so i'd have to say that the two biggies for me are a few largish colleges in the area, and a fairly low cost of living. right now i'm in buffalo and i love it. cheap rent, great restaurants, a wonderful art and music scene; everything i could ask for. i've spent time in all the continental states (except for oklahoma and delaware) and in all their major cities, and this is my favorite.
(yeah, i know, i'm the only one in the city who isn't actively trying to escape. :P )
--saintThree words... (Score:1)
Designed specifically to keep a city geographically small to keep public transit effective, reduce the need for future roads (which actually encourages more traffic instead of handling existing load), and prevent urban sprawl. It also has the added side benefit of keeping people from moving here, because you can't go move to the middle of nowhere and drive in without buying a farm in the mountains or commuting from Vancouver/southwest Washington. (Oregon's full, we don't want you.)
Chicago also has an urban growth boundary, but Illinois isn't exactly strict about enforcing it, however.
Re:land use restrictions == unafordable housing (Score:1)
Seems to be working, housing prices have remained stable while 2000 was the first year to see a population decline in Oregon. Congrats to Metro Regional Government [metro-region.org] on controlling growth.
A future (Score:5, Informative)
Alternate jobs in the same line of work. This means competition for the best jobs but also that jobs exist should I decide to move on.
Cost of living. Forget what I get paid, what do I get get to keep relative to similar money in other towns. ($95k in DC versus Baltimore)
Very good schools at two levels. First, for my children, elementary/high schools. Then for what it brings to the area one or two good technical colleges. The first is far easier than the second but most places seem to succeed or fail at both.
Good cultural opportunities. Sports, Theater, Arts.
Good public transport. Even if you build the ideal city I will still live in the suburbs and want to commute without a headache.
Fair taxes. I do not mind paying my share but it needs to be fair, and get me at once. I am tired of getting five different tax bills.
And seeing where you are from I just have to add, nice weather...
From this and the previous posters you see why this is hard to accomplish. Most cities do not have the billions of dollars necessary to start a college/university, build schools, public transportation, and cultural facilities.
Start with jobs. If you have them, they will come...
A good city (Score:1)
Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of things that are near the top of my list for me:
1. Good job market. This is pretty obvious, but I'm surprised not too many people are saying it. I want to live in a place where I have options as far as jobs go. This helps to two ways. First, there are more companies competing for my services, so I'm likely to get a higher salary/better benefits/etc. Second, if for some reason I need to switch jobs, I can switch without a lot of problems. If you live in a place that only has a handful of high tech companies, it's much harder to move to a different job.
Good ratio of salary to cost-of-living. It doesn't matter if you get paid more in a particular area if you're spending all your money on housing/food/taxes/etc.
Quality of life. This is where every person basically has to decide for themselves what's important. When you are coming out of school, things like night life are important. However, as you get older, things like quality of schools and health care have more importance.
I've lived in a few different places, and I've found that Baltimore is definitely a great city for high-tech. There are plenty of high-tech companies in and around the area (lots of game companies in particular), the cost of living is great (especially compared to D.C.), there are a lot of cultural and recreational activities, the education and health care systems are top-notch (Johns Hopkins/U of MD), and because it isn't a "trendy" city it isn't overbuilt.