Are There Any Fun Tech Jobs Left? 584
er0ck asks: "My first job out of college was working for an Internet Startup. They gave me some books and told me to learn Perl. Our office was a refurbished factory, with lots of light and open space. Best of all, we could bring our nerf toys in to work (and use them!). Four months later, the company went under. Several dot bomb jobs later, I work for my state government. Is anyone still having fun at their tech job?" I think that with the economic downturn, more companies are concentrating on survival more than being "fun". Are there any "fun" tech jobs left, or have they all suffered from the Economic Darwinism of the early 21st century?
"[Government work is] steady work, but boring at times. (I don't think they'd approve of the Nerf guns). Without the pressure of staying in business, projects sometimes stagnate, leaving us with little to do. During these slow times, I help behind the scenes at NerfCenter.com; It's a fun site, and they are switching to Perl for their admin backend. It keeps my skills sharp, and wards off the boredom.
My questions to the Slashdot community are:
- Can you have a fun tech job, without the worry of being suddenly unemployed?
- If you are you forced (as I am) to get your fun on the side what are some good projects to get involved in?
- What do you to unwind and have a bit of 'fun' in the workplace?"
Right... (Score:4, Insightful)
Gee, imagine that.
Re:Right... (Score:3, Funny)
Whatta stellar business plan!
Me, I'm gonna hire rubbies outta the back alleys, and go for an IPO. I figure they'll work for aftershave, so I won't even have to give away stock options!
Re:Right... (Score:5, Insightful)
The really sad part is that people think that you can write software after you "learn" a language. Some college grads come out of school having "learned" a few languages, but unless they were involved in a large scale university project, they haven't learned how to really write software since each of the programs they coded usually didn't grow beyond what could be completed in a semester or two. (Forgive me for generalizing, but this has been my experience with new-hires.)
Additionally, lots of managers where I work think that they can go buy someone some "Java training" or "PL/SQL training" or "Solaris admin training" or whatever and suddenly they will have transformed a junior support person into a senior developer, DBA or sys admin.
This is analagous to sending someone to school to learn the French language assuming that they will return with the skills required to write a novel in French. I only speak one language (English, obviously) and I am nowhere close to having developed my skills with the language to the point where I could write a novel.
I don't care what language I work in as much as I care about the archiecture of the system, the process used to design/code/test, how much peer review and interaction is involved, what scheduling methods are used, whether or not I can live with the mandated coding standard (I have curly brace issues...), whether there are enough iterations in the schedule, how much time is dedicated to refactoring, whether the scope is well defined, etc, etc, etc...
Re:Right... (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the industry and the academic world is relatively unconcerned with providing fresh people with the skills to take their knowledge beyond the point of "I know SQL and Java." In my experience, no one even wants interns anymore for that kind of stuff, as tech companies in my area are hemmoraging badly and I need to support myself with an income rather than do serious work for a company for free. (I'm a strange case, because I'm jaded with the industry and I'm not sure I love it; however, I haven't heard a lot of good luck stories from my peers, either)
Re:Right... (Score:2)
Also... yes I am jaded through observation. Slashdot, Dilbert, FuckedCompany, and other places detailing horror stories come to mind. Yes, I've had a few internships through college, and I think they worked out well, but you do need to take every job on a case-by-case basis. It's just that this is a fairly large industry that went kaput recently, so I don't even get the chance to evaluate jobs beyond a blurb in the classifieds or a website description. For most of the jobs I applied for, I never make it to an interview. And from what's done sometimes on these interviews, how could I not be at least partially jaded? I take a 2 hour car trip or an $80 train ride to get an interview with a company where all they do is talk about themselves for 45 minutes, they ask me one or two vague questions at the end and ask my GPA, and it's whoosh out the door...
I dunno. I've just heard a lot of bad things. I keep an open mind with this stuff, cause on some level I do like doing it. But I am partially convinced that a lot of these tech jobs are not for me. That's what I meant.
Language doesn't matter (Score:5, Insightful)
On the flip side of the coin are the people who think that you are unqualified for a particular project because you haven't learned a particular language or flavor-of-the-day API. As you did an excellent job of pointing out, software engineering skills are by far the most important factor that determine the quality of a developer's work and these skills are largely language and API independent. This (among other reasons) is why MIT teaches (or used to teach anyway) their computer science courses with obscure languages like CLU and SCHEME - because it is the engineering principals that matter and not the language.
So to the original poster who chided the company for hiring somebody who didn't know Perl to write Perl, that may have actually been a very good decision if the guy had substantial software engineering skills. It takes a few days to pick up a new programming language, but years to develop good software engineering skills.
Re:Right... (Score:2)
Even then, I don't think it's applicable to the real world. Unless you've dealt with 10 year old source code, where everyone who originally designed it has left, and where there is a requirement to add new features which were never originally considered and which require really horrible hacks.
It takes experience to understand how to design programs & systems so that they will last for the long term, and no-one I've ever seen has it coming out of school.
Re:Right... (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words, they started placing a lot of emphasis on totally superficial crap. The real way to attract good people, and therefore to stay in business, is to promise them (and deliver)interesting projects that are well-managed.
In my mind a "fun" job is one that has you doing interesting technical projects, and Nerf toys has nothing to do with it. Of course, a good work environment with a lot of personal freedom is essential too, but I think if you find good projects with good people involved, a fun work environment is likely to follow naturally. Unless of course you're working for the govt., or a govt contractor.
Re:Right... (Score:2)
Glad (Score:1)
Well... (Score:1)
Ever hear of "cause and effect?"
What is a "fun job"? (Score:5, Insightful)
My job is as a programmer/admin. I enjoy it and the company receives good value. Pre-1995 this would have been defined as heaven. To you dot-bomb losers it is apparently hell.
Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
She's a fresh-out-of-school programmer, and she's been looking for C/C++/Java work here in Chicago. Three months of firing off resumes in every direction, and she hasn't gotten so much as a single interview.
It seems like nobody is hiring programmers fresh out of school - or not in Chicago, at least!
What's the experience been like for others who have just graduated? Is this something of a fluke, or something more to do with her gender than her experience? (I don't know if I want to believe that in this day and age...) Or does the surplus of available tech workers from the dot-com fallout mean trouble for entry-level programmers?
It took me along time to gt my foot in the door (Score:2)
You may find that nobody hires "C++ developer"'s but they do hire "MFC" developers or "CGI" programmers or some such specialty. Having the magic acronym on that resume can get you into an interview.
Once you can get an interview, you can sell yourself. You *have* to seem enthusiastic and optimistic. Ive also found that swagger helps. You should be self confident to just shy of arrogant. And never bullshit- speak your mind.
After that, well you've overcome the old "22" barrier and now find that there are more jobs than ever. (Especially if you can get the job done)
And as for the corny nerf-toy stuff, that was always just superficial.
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
People with experience aren't finding it any better. Too much experience and you're too expensive. But mostly the problem is projects shelved or canceled, usually due to lack of funding because upper level management of 20 companies competing for one market each figured they could get between 25% to 40% of that market in a couple years. Yeah right! My next business model is selling MBA degrees on a roll about 4.5 inches wide.
Sure there are... (Score:2)
I know how you feel (Score:2)
Part of my interview is just that- questions about how the languages on their resume work.
Ive generally found that a poor programmer is also a poor software engineer, so i really want to ask these question to weed out chobo PHd's who couldnt hack their way out of a bubble sort.
So I have an alternate gambit: I say that there is a technical part of the interview- but since the candidate obviously has so much experience it is unnecessary- unless of course they want to try it.
Invariably they say they'd like to try it anyway, and then the atomsphere is right. I tend to find that 66% of candidates really shouldn't have C++ on their resume, because they dont know the most basic things.
Sadly, a good indicator of this is extensive education, and a job history riddled with positions like "software analyst", and "systems architect".
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
Reminds me of a friend who told me the story about two Ph.D candidates in EE (the friend was working on his masters in that department) with their disserations just about done, trying to connect up a circuit in a small device they were working on. They had a very hot soldering iron working, but they couldn't figure out why the wires weren't melting. Seems the only meaning they had ever leared for the term "solder" was that was the name of the hot iron to melt the wires together with. I sure would have loved to see what their disserations were about ... I always like good humor.
Re:hello (Score:2)
However, most of the delivered systems are on WinNT and Visual Studio is where much of the programming takes place. The Unix boxes and Linux clusters are used for proof-of-concepts, prototypes, and sys-admin. However, there are a lot of Linux supporters high up in Management and they could switch over anytime soon.
Re:hello (Score:2)
Our main application was Matlab and Matlab processes didn't migrate properly. We kept those on the Origin server. For image processing and rendering, we used the mosix cluster and it worked very well. Just remember to code your program into a bunch of threads or if you are processing data, split data up and run one process on each dataset.
The program that monitors load is cool too. It monitors the loads on each node and you can watch the threads jump from one node to another.
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
Re:It's legal (if unclear) C++. (Score:2)
Check your facts, please. The result of += 1 on a bool in C++ is perfectly well-defined by the C++ standard. Like the man said, it's legal, if obviously bad style.
Re:It's legal (if unclear) C++. (Score:2)
No, it doesn't. In C++, if b is a bool then b += 1 always sets b to true, which seems to be entirely what the user was trying to do, albeit not as clearly expressed as it might have been.
Since you don't seem to believe me, here's the technical reason. b is first converted to an int, with the value 0 if b == false or 1 if b == true. That integer is then incremented to have the value 1 or 2. Finally, that value is converted back to a bool and assigned back to b. Since any non-zero integer converts to true, the effect is that b is always set to true by the assignment in question.
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
When I graduated over ten years ago, the country was in a recession (as it is now). . .
The answers of The Forum [forum2000.org] are ephemeral, but the wisdom is timeless: Would you even know the country was in a recession if your TV didn't tell you so?
The "dot.com bubble" burst, as predicted, and rightly so. Lots of layoffs in a limited subset of industries and careers. So what? I live in Silicon Valley, where new building construction has been on the rise for the past ten years - and shows every sign of accelerating. Guess the guys in hardhats don't feel like they're in a recession. Guess they feel like the times are better than ever before.
This "recession" is just a jedi mind-trick to get you to accelerate your annual spending increase.
That's right - businesses are concerned because your spending went up since last year - but it didn't go up as much as it did the year before. Learn from Jabba the Hutt. Don't fall for their little handwaving tricks.
Re:Are there any tech jobs left - period! (Score:2)
Just to add something from another employer's point of view, CVs are not uniformly bad. However, a good 95% of the ones we see suck. All of the other 5% get interviews, and most of them wind up getting hired. If you want a job, learn to write a decent CV, and you've already got a headstart on most people.
CV writing advice (Score:3, Informative)
Sure. I've written about this on /. before, but here are a few of the major points -- things that many (most?) people get wrong.
- CVs that are needlessly long. If you're looking for something like summer work while studying at university, a page will probably be good enough. For a first or second job after that, two pages is probably appropriate, as you'll need a little space to list the work experience you've got now. If you genuinely need to write more than two pages, you don't need me to tell you how to write your CV.
:-)
- CVs full of unsupported buzzwords. Agencies are great for sending these, usually on an ugly and hard-to-scan cover page that adds no value to the CV. Employers will not be impressed by your claiming to know 17 different langauges when you've only just graduated, or your gratuitous use of terms like "expert", "advanced" or (God forbid) "mission critical". By all means list your skills, but be honest, and provide objective information, such as the number of years you've been using a skill. You might include a fair assessment of your ability ("basics", "competent", "good"), which helps an employer to understand your focus if you're listing, say, three or four languages. Make sure the experience sections of your CV (work and education) show where these bits of experience happened.
- CVs with poor use of English. If you can't even write English, do you expect us to let you write C++ or Perl? Sloppy language is a sure sign of someone who doesn't pay attention to detail, and that is not the kind of person we want to employ. And of course, a professional programming job needs far more than coding skills; it also requires interpersonal and communications skills, for a start. The quality of your CV is the one way a company has to assess these skills until they meet you in person.
- CVs that use poor layout. Companies will not be impressed by pointless flash on a CV. Don't overuse things like fonts. Avoid snazzy graphics, strange formats such as 3-fold brochures, or other "distinctive" features. Stick to a clear layout that's easy on the eyes. Use bullet lists where appropriate, but don't overdo it so that your pages look "dotty". Leave plenty of whitespace; a cramped CV is hard to scan, and you've only got 30 seconds -- max -- to convince someone to keep reading.
Some things, everyone should have. For example...- Provide a summary of your skills. This comes at the top of your CV, right under the personal information. Think about what your potential employer is looking for. For example, if you're going for a programming job, you might list the languages most relevant to the job (maybe with an indication of your proficiency with them -- "Java, 3 years, competent"). You might also choose to list the major tools you've used (e.g., JDK v1.3, CVS).
- Provide your academic background in an easily-scannable chronological form. People will check this briefly, often as the first thing they read on your CV, to guage your general level of experience. Include dates and places, grades, and brief notes if, say, your degree course covered something particularly relevant to the job. If your academic career has been quite long (e.g., you've got your degree by now), consider condensing the earlier qualifications into a one liner (e.g., in the UK, 8 GCSEs: 3 As, 3 Bs, 2Cs).
- List your relevant work experience in an easily-scannable, chronological form. Give dates and places, job titles, and a brief summary of what you did, including anything that's relevant to the job for which you're applying.
Finally, certain things will catch the eye of someone reading your CV, and if they're appropriate, you can use them to good effect. For example, consider providing your home page address. If you've got some personal programming projects under your belt, you might consider making the source/docs available on-line. If your CV is read by someone technical, they probably will visit your site and have a quick look, at least long enough to say "Hey, she can really code!" or "Nope, he can't code for toffee." If your home site is full of cutesy photos of your friends, I don't recommend providing a link...Apologies for the lack of links in this post; the /. search engine doesn't seem to be working properly right now. However, one link that's definitely worth following is the one to Carnegie-Mellon's Susie the Screener page [cmu.edu]. This page may come as a rude awakening to many /.ers who think they're clever, but they'll have much, much better job prospects after reading it.
If you just follow the simple and common-sense advice above, I reckon you're already in the top 5-10% of CVs a company will receive. That alone will put your chances of getting an interview way up. Good luck.
Re:CV writing advice (Score:2)
Most recruitment peeps like a relatively "clinical" CV, because they're easy to scan and understand. If you have something important to offer, the trick is to make sure they pick up on it in the few seconds they'll be scanning your CV. Care to give any specific examples of things you'd want to highlight, but feel you can't on a "clinical" CV?
Re:H1B (Score:2)
H1B amounts to "slave labor". The workers can't risk losing their jobs for fear of being deported, so they will take whatever crap the employer forces on them, and the employers know it, so this dish it out thick.
H1B workers can't very easily change jobs, because the new employer has to already be willing to do the government paperwork to hire an H1B. The market for job hopping (which would help prevent abuses by employers) is pretty much closed to H1B workers.
H1B workers are underpaid for their jobs because the H1B job only requires they be paid at least the average pay for the job classification, and the government classifies all software engineering into one single job with one average. Since that average takes into account all the really lame programming work, too, it's a lot lower than what a really good programmer would and should make.
H1B workers hurt the US economy because they buy less here with what little money they do make (on average). Many send all their excess back home (because they aren't planning to stay), or save it up and take it back when they finally leave (even if they'd have preferred to stay and become citizens).
I say the H1B program should be dumped. Those who want to leave, go back home. Those who want to stay should be given permanent resident status (and they are welcome in our country) and be free go find a better job than the one they are stuck in. That is what a free market really is.
What a dumb question (Score:4, Insightful)
"Are there any more Fun jobs?!??!!"
Yes, there are. For years people have been loving their jobs because they enjoy what they are paid for. Not for playing around in a sandbox like you are in Grade 1.
And its not only tech people who enjoy their job. Its doctors (excitement/feel like they are helping people), ministers/counsolers (spiritual fullfillment) and even fishermen (enjoy the surroundings/hard-work enjoyment).
I think this guy needs an attiude change/reality-check.
My job's pretty good (Score:2)
I'm lucky (Score:2)
The darndest places are fun (Score:2)
It was one of those fun group interviews, and it started sounding like a fun place to work, but the clincher was when it came time for the other managers to ask me their questions, and the programming manager's question was "Rubber bands: office supply, or weapon?"
I got the job when my answer was "Office supply. I have *Nerf*."
The rest of the bank viewed the MIS department with tolerant amusement, but they weren't quite as stuffy as you'd expect either. (Each department had goofy "Camp" signs. Computer Operations was Camp Kickalottapeopleoff or some such, Foreclosures was Camp Usendadamoneyukeepadahouse, things like that.) They're still in business, though I quit to become a SAHM, after corrupting all their RPG programmers by teaching them Perl.
My husband, on t'other hand, works for A Really Big Airplane Manufacturer Who's Laying A Lot Of People Off Next Year, and it's definitely big-company mentality, even in the various IT departments. You can still be a nonconformist, though; I just bought him some Frigits, which he's using on the metal cube-dividing cabinets, and he came home and reported that he's now "famous."
Re:The darndest places are fun (Score:2)
Ehhhh, COULD be...
</bugs>
Lots of light? (Score:2)
Nope, I just don't get it. Lots of light and a technical job are two terms that just don't mix. Lots of light means reflections on your screen, which leads to increased headaches. Any real techie lives in a darkened room/area. I'm having a constant running battle with others in our office to have the lights kept off at my end of the room.
a tip for working without glare from lights (Score:2)
Re:Lots of light? (Score:2)
Now I'm in a "standard office environment" - flourescent lights, tubes, and glare. The lights overpour what sunlight makes its way to my cube, defeating my body's natural sense of the day's progression. The glare gives me headaches.
I think the best working environment has natural light and natural shadow. And some truly dark caves for those who need them.
Re:Lots of light? (Score:2)
I'm just staring at a monitor all day, and it creates its own light. There's lots of natural light in th offiec already.
It amusing, our whole office is on a single light switch. If engineering gets in first, they work without the lights on until a salesperson or executive gets there and turns on all the lights.
Re:Lots of light? (Score:2)
Even the best monitors suffer from glare in brightly lit rooms, coating or not. Plus, depending on the location of your desk, it's often not possible to position your monitor to avoid reflections.
Ever consider... (Score:3, Insightful)
Instead of lining the pockets of greedy company owners/CEOs, I work for a non-profit organization which is there to support you, rather than hinder your progress. Layoffs? College enrollments are on the rise due to the massive numbers of IT layoffs! Have you ever heard of a college instructor getting laid off? It simply doesn't happen, because of the inverse relationship between IT employment levels and the need for college-level IT instruction.
Plus, I find teaching to be immensely satisfying, both on a personal and spiritual level. What more noble endeavor is there than to help others? I can safely say that I've never felt "personally satisfied" at any consultant gig I've done.
If you're happy following all the other unemployed IT sharks that are being chummed by headhunters with no jobs to offer and companies intent on building their resume files for when the "turnaround" comes, more power to you. If you're looking for something that's not only fun, but honorable, check out your local colleges.
Re:Ever consider... (Score:2)
The important point is that CEOs and sharewhoreders are being judged by their actions, not how they were born. Now, let's diasect your statements:
The "bigwigs" didn't just line their own pockets, they lined yours, too...You entered an agreement to do a certain amount of work for a certain amount of pay.
Sadly, that is a propaganda item of capitilistic sentiment that rarely plays out in the real world. In the case of salary positions, you agree to work for 40hrs a week. It is a part of corporate culture in the US today that you work 60-80 hrs per week. So already an employee is getting paid 33% less than agreed to. Never mind the fact that even in IT pay for work is rarely reflective of the revenue these worker bees generate. Let's also not forget that what these guys make is orders of magnitude below the fat cats. And what, pray tell, do these people do to *earn* that money besides exploit others?
What does it matter what anyone else in the company makes?
It makes a difference because when new hardware is needed to meet resource requirements or more people are needed to meet the workload, the management structure (composed of mostly shareholders) balks, stalls, and outright denies these expenditures. They then claim the "savings" as achievements to their seniors, get fat bonuses, more stock options, which as often as not equal the "savings" they achieved by withholding critical resources from their employees who then had to work an extra 20-40 hours a week to handle the fallout.
Why do you feel the need to be envious of the deal someone else works out with the company? If you want to earn what they earn, no one is stopping you.
See above. I can't just "apply" to be a shareholder, I have to either claw my way up the management chain by treating employees as listed above, or have lotsa money to start with. It's the "old boys club" we all know and love. In a just society, they would be charged with conspiracy and racketeering. As it is, we call them leaders of the community, and turn a blind eye to the crimes they can and do commit because of their wealth and power.
And as for advancement through the managment tree, let's not forget how that's never linked to skill and ability, but rather is achieved through politicking, backstabing, and taking credit for others' hard work; either earnest line managers who are too honest and care too much for their employees to be promoted, or their over-worked employees.
But back to the main subject, if you want to make a specific complaint against a specific company, or specific individual in that company, that's one thing but baseless generalizations just foster unreasonable hatred.
Unreasonable hatred? Bullocks! As stated earlier, these fat cats have earned their reputation. Pursuit of weath is fine, but only when its done without being a harmful parasite who feeds off of the honest work of others. Moreover, wretched excess is completely unjustifiable and very harmful to society (power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...).
Again, if you don't want to work in that environment, that's fine. Work for...[blah]...[blah]...But don't assume someone is greedy because they make more money than you.
So if they are not greedy, why do they insist on making such money at the expense of their much-used and abused employees and John Q. Public? Shall we look at the earnings some of these bastards make on options alone? From Yahoo!:
From JP Morgan -
22-May-01 WARNER, DOUGLAS A Chairman of the Board, Director, Officer 100,000 JPM Sold at $50.00/Share. Proceeds of $5,000,000.
From GE -
27-Mar-01 BLAKE, FRANCIS S Vice President 75,000 GE Exercised Options at Average of $8.28/Share and Sold at $41.66/Share. Proceeds of $2,503,200.
From Ford:
24-May-01 COSGROVE, WILLIAM J Vice President 81,189 F (Common PAR $0.01) Exercised Options at Average of $11.12/Share and Sold at $25.11/Share. Proceeds of $1,135,490.
From Compaq: 8-Feb-01 ROMAN, KENNETH Director 130,000 CPQ Exercised Options at$ 2.25/Share and Sold at $24.11/Share. Proceeds of $2,841,800.
So again, what have these people *done* to justify these earnings? How can they justify owning such wealth (remember, these are just single transactions!) when there is so much need and want in the world by people better than they?
And let us close by not forgetting the fact of what happens when times get tough, as they are getting today. What happens? Do these fat cats cut back on their excess, and support the employees whose blood, sweat, and tears have earned that weath? No, they cut jobs left and right, and do nothing much to help by cutting back from their own weath and earnings. So I see your point, they aren't greedy after all!
As I said, nice straw man, but your arguments don't hold. Perhaps my writings are a bit extreme, but after working in a Fortune 10 company, these views were born and nurtured through what I have seen and experienced on the job. So why don't I get another? Because relatively my company does pay better than others and I have a family to feed. Of course, by comparison, it is still much much much less than these non-greedy, unjustly-hated business men make off of my and my fellows labor.
By that very same token, they are able to exert extra power over me, making me work outragous hours and making outrageous demands, because they know I can't make as much money anywere else. So I (and many others) don't have the ability to go anywhere else. Besides, where should we go? It's all the same everywhere. Just go to Yahoo for proof, and spend some time looking at insider trading. Or, spend some time in a company and actually pay attention to what happens. There is nothing noble or justifyable about the actions or attitudes of management or shareholders.
This is too depressing, I'm going to bed.
Re:Ever consider... (Score:2)
Just like if one black person is a criminal, all black people are criminals.
Obviously you didn't read my original posting. I'll keep this one short. Here's what I said before: Nice strawman you set up, but you comparison is completely invalid. Racism is racism because the groups who are the targets of racism have no control over thier birth-elements: color, ethnicity, etc. What they do with themselves afterwards is all people should be judged by. The important point is that CEOs and sharewhoreders are being judged by their actions, not how they were born.
It is apparent that you've are lacking experience in this arena, have never worked for a major corporation, and don't pay much attention to what goes on in the world. When you've tasted more of life, understand human nature, and have an appreciation for the matter at hand, we can continue this discourse.
Re:Ever consider... (Score:2)
The important point is that CEOs and sharewhoreders are being judged by their actions, not how they were born.
And that is my point as well. Judge individuals by their actions, not whole groups. Your judgements are like saying "all priests are child molesters". Poeple are not born as priests either, but that would be just as wrong.
It is apparent that you've are lacking experience in this arena, have never worked for a major corporation, and don't pay much attention to what goes on in the world.
Substitute "black people" or "priests" into the statement and it suddenly becomes bigotry and hate speech. Bigotry is bigotry, no matter who the target. If you are making unjust generalizations about a group of people, then that is bigotry. Oh, but the difference is that your generalizations are true, right? All bigots think that their generalizations are true.
When you've tasted more of life, understand human nature, and have an appreciation for the matter at hand, we can continue this discourse.
I am 37 years old, born in the US, have 1 child with another on the way, travelled in many countries in Europe (where my family is from), have worked in some large companies, some small companies, and have started several companies. I've raised significant venture capital ($4.5M first round, $15M second round). I've never worked for a non-profit, but one of my companies worked with colleges and universities, so I know how they work internally.
And no, I wasn't "born into money". Strictly lower-middle class. I've been on all sides of the fence. I daresay I've more experience than you with all the players in the corporate game. That's why I find it particularly offensive that you paint everyone with a broad brush, because I know it's not true from personal experience. I didn't particularly want to start listing credentials because I think the debate stands on its own (I shouldn't have to say "I have a lot of friends who are black people"), but since you are going to dismiss the argument because of a perceived lack of credentials, then it seems I need to.
Now, are some people how you describe? Obviously, yes. Larry Ellison is my favorite punching bag of the prototypical rich jerk that gives all CEOs a bad name. Infamous womenizer, Oracle glass ceilings, the works. But then you get companies like HP, who by all accounts is a great place to work. I know that their corporate education department is one of the best. Hell, Boeing instituted a tuition reimbursement program where they would pay the tuition for any education you want -- work related or not. They would pay for you to get a degree, and reward you with 100 shares of Boeing stock (about $5K a few years ago).
So maybe you should just consider that maybe the whole business world doesn't look like your limited experience.
Depends what you mean by "fun" (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd just like to point out two oft-overlooked facts here.
Re:Depends what you mean by "fun" (Score:2)
Actually, MS have a reputation for treating their employees pretty well. Certainly the few people I've known who've worked for MS have all talked of very good working conditions, so I have no reason to doubt the reputation.
And the reason that the software house where I work is still in business is precisely that it hasn't screwed over its clients. We try to build partnership-style relationships, with a bit of give and take, and a mutual trust. As a result, we generally have happy customers. These provide repeat business all the time, and keep several of our teams going full-time, so we're financially secure even when new business deals don't work out.
I'd love to see even the slightest proof of that claim.
Maybe you know your job. Like I said before, what's going to happen is that the job market is going to fragment a bit. Those who are genuinely good will continue to get good deals, because they're worth it. Freeloaders who can't do much and have been riding the hype for a year or two are going to be all out of luck. This was always going to happen, and the current economic climate is just acting as a catalyst.
job fun != nerf toys (Score:5, Insightful)
For me anyway, an funfactor of a job has very little to do with foosbal tables, or nerf guns, or anything like that. A job is enjoyable if I get to do work that's enjoyable. For the past few months, I've been working at an embedded tech company that's somewhat prosperous.
At the beginning of the term, the boss just came over, dropped a couple specification manuals on us (me, co-worker), and told us to implement it. That was cool. No micro-management - we went to him when we had questions or doubts. For starting from scratch, and not knowing the hardware or the codebase, we got a decent amount of work accomplished.
The answer to your question is YES. There are really nice, enjoyable jobs out there. Find a company that's doing interesting work - no, not the next e-business we're going to revolutionize the world with our web-frontend loss-leader 'solution' funded on venture capital and no chance of profit.
It's about the work man. I became a programmer because I love programming, because solving hard problems using logic (I love math too
So what sets you off? compilers? virtual machines? optimization? datbase? graphics? ai? infrastructure? app-coding? embedded systems? low-level?
There's tons of companies out there doing interesing stuff, that need good people to work on interesting problems. So find one and get in.
If you're not into your work, no amount of nerf playing will take away the fact that you don't enjoy your work - it just means you'll get less done, and be dead weight for your company and get fired, or not be fired (which indicates bad management and that the company is headed nowhere fast).
-Laxitive
Re:job fun != nerf toys (Score:2)
I test software and write test automation. While this may not sound like fun for most people, it gives me a rush when I find an exceptionally obscure bug or the bug that crashes the entire system. I get to give the programmers a hard time, program a bit myself, suggest new features or corrections to the design, and best of all I have the satisfaction of making the product much better for the customer.
I have a nerf gun in my office, but I have only used it once in the last year and I like my job so much that I occasionally work 14 hour days just because it is so much fun!
You make your own fun - find a job doing what you enjoy and have an aptitude for.
The greatest tragedy of the dot-com boom/bust is that many people went into computers because they saw money. Do something because you like it, not because it pays a lot.
Re:job fun != nerf toys (Score:2)
I'm a systems administrator for an engineering company that designs and builds tooling for automotive and aerospace. Not a terribly exciting industry in my mind, but the work is enjoyable.
They're always giving me new, challenging assignments, including some coding and other systems projects we're working on. IT is important in this industry, where computers and math are heavily involved in the design (particularly with 3D modeling and imaging) and construction (such as running NC milling machines).
I get a lot of enjoyment from my work. And it's a company with a viable business model that isn't going the way of the dot-bombs... as long as there is a need for automated manufacturing processes, there will always be a need for tooling.
It's the finding process that's broken (Score:2)
The small companies doing the interesting stuff don't advertise job openings on the big job boards (mostly, there are occaisional exceptions). Basically the job finding (and from the point of view of employer, the people finding) process is what is flawed. The big job boards are 95% jobs that are handled by recruiters, who spend about 1/4 of the space promoting how great their job placement company is. Most of those jobs are stuff big corporate jobs for small peons, and lately at pay levels unrelated to the skills and experience people really bring to the job (because they decide in advance what the pay is, and try to find someone that will take it ... which works in this market right now).
I'd like to see a job board set up that's restricted to just really cool jobs. It would have fewer recruiters because they have few cool jobs, but it shouldn't restrict them. And it would be important for the search on it to be smart. On the major boards, if I search on a keyword like "unix" it matches up ever jobs for Windows NT programmers that say "some exposure to unix would be helpful", but that's not what I put the search term in to find. And there needs to be as much focus on what kind of job is involved (the role, what the work is) as the skills. Just because I listed skills in programming a few languages doesn't mean I actually want a job doing programming all day long (hey, many admins can code, too, but maybe they don't want to do it all day long).
Such a job board MUST be free for not only job seekers, but also employers. Companies are faced with many boards to post on, and when there are costs involved (usually a few hundred dollars), they simply cannot post on them all (and many small companies can't even post on any). Revenue to support it should come from impression advertising and highlighting extras (for those companies that do want to pay something to make their posting stand out).
Web Ninja... (Score:2)
I'm a webmaster/artist for a medium-sized company in Texas that handles financial data. My duties range from in-company photographer to web design to server administration. I don't make *quite* as much as the developers we employ, but I do make quite a bit more than 'industry standard'. Also, I get to delve into all aspects of my job, unlike the developers who are stuck coding Java 40 hours a week. I've become siginificantly more experienced at photography, and I've increased my art skills. I was strictly an Apache admin before I started, but now, because this is a '31 Flavors' shop, I know as much about IIS as I do about Apache. (And yes, I keep the MS servers patched against things like Code Red and Nimda.)
If you can find a position like this, I highly recommend it.
If it isn't fun, give up. (Score:2)
If you don't consider the work itself to be fun, you really need to find another line of work.
That said, I just found a job with a small government contractor. We get free food and drinks, shoot huge rubber bands at each other, chill on the patio, etc.. So yes, those jobs still exist.
I was better at work when it was more fun... (Score:3, Interesting)
It was actually really nice -- two or three times a day you could play a quick game or two, each time taking maybe five minutes. It was a great way to get away from your desk and get the blood pumping a little bit (nothing like some activity to get the brain working again).
Then our managers decided that we shouldn't play during the work day anymore. It was like night and day for me -- I couldn't get past the after-lunch sleepy feeling on most days, I didn't want to stay at work late anymore. Ironically, the amount of time I spent at my desk actually producing dropped dramatically.
It was just ping-pong, but I think it marked kind of a turning point in terms of morale at work. I know I wasn't the only one who felt that way.
A lot of the reactions I've been reading are reacting to the excesses of the dot-coms, like that "Generation Now" commercial where nobody in the office is actually working. That's fair, but it's important to remember that there's a lot of room between that extreme and a boring, soulless workplace.
Re:I was better at work when it was more fun... (Score:2)
Usually you only get those breaks if you smoke. It's a good reason to take up smoking -- take a break, reduce stress, no one is forcing you to inhale after all, might be good for you. A ping pong table is much better, though.
Re:I was better at work when it was more fun... (Score:2)
From my experiences in the workplace, that is easily more than 30 mins/day. Big business just letsd you decide when to take a break.
Re:I was better at work when it was more fun... (Score:2)
Re:I was better at work when it was more fun... (Score:2)
However, if you are taking a seat at the table in the coffee room, having a brief chat with a coworker about a movie you saw (for example), I think that is just as much a break as having a smoke outside for a few minutes. The difference is in perception.
Similarly, if you browse
Taking breaks is necessary in order to be productive. Having a positive perception of them is also important, IMO.
Re:I was better at work when it was more fun... (Score:2)
Is being an NFL Quarter back "fun"? (Score:3, Interesting)
They work their tight little asses off though.
This is going to sound trite, especially considering all the other posts saying essentially the same thing, BUT. . .
You are basically still a child. You have now had your first *jobs,* but have yet to have any actually experience of working.
Give up the idea of "fun" at work. Find a job where you enjoy doing the WORK and bust your ass at it, eight hour a day. Then go HOME to play, with your paycheck.
How about starting your own company? Work 16 hour days, seven days a week, only to have nothing because your employees take it all while bitching about you. I used to tell people, " I don't work for myself. I work for my lawyer, insurance company, phone company, landlord, power company, etc. They don't let me keep anything for myself."
You'll probably go under just like everyone else, but just might have the time of your life anyway. Funny how "fun" works sometimes.
By the way, if you manage that you're doing better than the 99.9% of the population who end up performing work functions because they like to eat better than the alternative. You just might have to grow up and get used to that idea.
KFG
Re:Is being an NFL Quarter back "fun"? (Score:4, Insightful)
First, have you ever *watched* football? Do me a favor -- watch the Monday Night game this week and look at Brett Favre's face when he's playing and then tell me he's not enjoying himself. Sure, these guys get paid a lot, but the best players you see are in the zone. That's where you want your people, too.
The idea that you should "give up the idea of having fun at work" sounds like the refrain of a manager bent on shooting themselves in the foot. Say it with me: Happy people are productive people. Happy people are people not blowing out the door at 5 (like your post implies you do). Happy people are more original and have better ideas and generally do their jobs better.
Remember: fun doesn't have to mean doing no work. Fun can mean taking your people to Dave & Busters once a quarter if you make a tough quota. Fun can mean buying lunch for everybody and having a bonding session. These things don't create huge disruptions or take a lot of time but create a much better working environment.
Beyond that, remember that the really legendary workplaces -- places like EA way back in the day -- weren't sweat shops. They were places where people didn't have any huge need to go home, where they felt inspired, etc.
Re:Is being an NFL Quarter back "fun"? (Score:2)
Sure, while he's playing, he's having fun. But "playing football on national TV" isn't the entire job description of an NFL quarterback. There's practices all week, training, weightlifting, etc. etc. I bet if you went to a Thursday practice you wouldn't see that "I love this" look you're referring to.
Re:Is being an NFL Quarter back "fun"? (Score:2)
I can see where, if something breaks rather heinously and you're dealing with production system downtime, you would feel the need to stay late and get the job done. I've done it many times myself. And maybe it is while you're young and single, things like having a life outside of work don't matter so much.... I know I had a blast as a road warrior when I wore a younger man's clothes... but there comes a point in your life, if you bother to have one, where you need to slow down, get off the road, and devote some quality time outside of work. You need to start working smarter, not harder. Set your customer's expectations, secretly plan to exceed them, and make your business not on getting it out the door first, but on having a reputation for things that work right the first time. Grow organically. And stop pushing yourselves to the breaking point... because at some point you'll forget where that point is... and find yourself taking your vacation within reach of a nurse call button.
The insanity we call running a business these days has got to stop. The stock market and the VC's these days expect more and more out of less and less, and it's all a huge bet... not on whether your company can make a decent product, but on whether it can totally dominate the entire market... and if you can't do that, you lose. What is so bloody wrong with taking your time and making a quality product that people are willing to wait for? The world is filled these days with "extreme" this and "ultra" that and the idea that if you're not pushing body, mind, and soul to 115% of their ability, you're a loser and deserve to be tossed aside as a know-nothing.
Actually, there is one thing that is "extreme" that appears to be working. Extreme programming. [extremeprogramming.org] For those who haven't read the link already, you work in pairs, one drives, one catches mistakes; stay in close contact with your customer; design using the KISS principle; keep your internal meetings to a minimum, and those short and informal; release daily; test constantly; if you don't know how to test it, don't write it; write only what you need, when you absolutely need it; and (with few exceptions) when 40 hours a week are up, GO HOME! This prevents programmer burnout, and enables you to write lots of good code fast. I know someone who is doing this now; I envy her greatly. She loves her job, because the method enables them to kick ass without wearing themselves out. I don't know whether they have nerf guns or ping-pong or video games or not... but I imagine they don't need them.
When you design quality and sanity into the process, you don't need this balls-to-the-wall mentality that seems to pervade the halls of high-tech these days. You can have a life. What's so wrong with having a life? I thought computers were supposed to make life easier, not harder.
--
If you're not having fun,
you're doing it wrong. -- me
Re:Is being an NFL Quarter back "fun"? (Score:2)
Actually, that's not true at all [bbc.co.uk].
Fun jobs??? (Score:5, Informative)
For the most part, all employers... corporations in particular, have declared war on their labor.
I'd list the reasons but the apologists would just deny them. :-)
Rich...
Acadamia (Score:2)
Financial agents for the Economics department. Star models for the Physics department. Biologists have so much data on their hands right now you could data mine untill the cows come home. Chemists are figuring out computer models are much easier to work with for many problems. No matter what kind of hacks you like to do a university would be more than willing to pay you for it. And the best part is you can get your masters/PhD degree in Uber Geek studies on the side.
I love my job.. ;) (Score:2)
It's great. I love my job. I also managed to get in right before the floor went out from under everybody.
My company is still fun. We had a doughnut-eating competition to raise money for the WTC bombing. Pranks are still played.
The problem is, there's a dotcom backlash. The real reason why dotcoms failed is because they weren't making any money. But people see the fancy chairs, the quirky offices, the couches, etc. as a symptom of the problem that there was. So the remaining tech companies are trying to show that they aren't like that.
I have to dress professionally to work, which means that the FCUK t-shirt, the OpenBSD t-shirt, the tie-dye t-shirt, and so on all have to stay home. Everybody wanted those funky mesh chairs, but we got Leap chairs instead. We have nice offices, not warehouse/factory space. Each office ends up with one hard leather couch set, not a fluffy funky couch set.
I guess the main thing is that the fun is between you and your cow-orkers, not a corporate mandate.
Re:I love my job.. ;) (Score:2)
I'll read that as "We had a doughnut-eating competition to raise money for the WTC bombing relief errorts. Pranks are still played."
Either that, or the Feds has one hell of a new lead.
(OT: True story. Back in my freshmen year of college, there was a special course on preventing date rape. The headline in the school paper: "Date Rape Program a Success". Choose your words carefully friend...)
Funky mesh chairs (Score:2)
You're right in that the fancy chairs, quirky offices, and freebies were simply symptoms of the disease that killed dotcoms, but America is all about treating the symptoms.
But there's no way I am giving up my funky mesh chair.
"Fun" work environments are a fraud (Score:2)
Nerf toys, "group happy hour", "group lunches", yuck. I have plenty of friends that match my interests and values outside of work. The LAST thing I want at work is having to try to fit in with the "fun group". Sounds like high school to me.
I get my "fun" at work by being challenged by the work, not enthralled with the people.
That being said, I have had fun with the people I worked with at every job, but it happened in an organic way, not because work was a "fun place".
Fun? Of course I am. (Score:2)
I spent the first few weeks just familiarizing myself with the kernel's internals. Now, I spend my time communicating with maintainers and producing patches to fix SMP locking issues.
I'm 22 and just out of college, so these dream jobs are waiting somewhere for some of you.
I have a fun job! (Score:2)
I work part-time on campus for slightly more than minimum wage with the people who make sure the dorms are up and running. I'm around to make sure their network and computers are up and running and everything gets along. I didn't have to implement anything, I just maintain. It's simple, the people are nice, and I pretty much make my own hours.
Define Fun (Score:2)
So yeah, there cool jobs out there but they are usually higer up in the ladder.
Utter foolishness killed the dot-coms. (Score:2)
"... or have they all suffered from the Economic Darwinism of the early 21st century?"
It wasn't "Economic Darwinism" that killed the dot-coms. It was utter foolishness.
Violence is not Religion. Religion is not violence: What Should be the Response to Violence? [hevanet.com]
Fun jobs don't need toys (Score:2)
There's quite a lot of jobs that are fun that don't need to have toys and foosball tables prominently displayed to achieve official FUN status. I used to work for someone who thought that way, and would get boxes of cheap toys and bottles of bubble soap (might as well just pour that straight into the keyboards), and it wasn't fun, it was a gimmick to distract people from her shit management skills and the fact that she ran the department ragged and understaffed for stupid political reasons. It's easier to buy your employees a happy meal than actually create a decent work environment for a hard-working staff.
Now I work for a "straight" company (or three, if you count how many times it'd been bought out). CEO's a jerk, there's plenty of horrid little petty policies bouncing around other departments, but I'm having fun because I'm doing the work i want, have the opportunity to work on interesting projects, and work with a kickass team of ass-kickers and has a boss who knows how to play politics effectively to get us what we need. Decent management and decent coworkers make for a considerably more fun job than just having toys littered about.
Fun moves around: Related aside (Score:2)
Now they're a crack team of highly experienced, low-level electronics guys who are reduced to swapping power supplies in PCs, and _maybe_ replacing filter capacitors in them. They're all looking forward to retirement because the fun has gone out of their jobs. About the only place advanced electronics will get you an interesting job now is in chip design.
The point? Fun moves around. (Note here that I'm talking about the fun that's inherent in the work itself) In 20 years, my SA job may be utterly dull, and reduced to clicking buttons. My hard-fought skills will be almost useless, except perhaps in OS/device development environments. That's the sad way it often goes.
Nerf? Heretic. (Score:2)
Work != Life (Score:2)
I'm speaking to myself. For the past few years I have given up all but the most important aspects of my life (my wife and two kids) in order to devote more time to work. For the next two weeks I'm in lock-down to finish a project.
Leave on time. Spend time doing something else with people you love.Re:Work != Life (Score:2)
The above is an important lesson. Work is work. Life is fun.
My job isen't very exciting. I don't get very many obvious perks (I even have to pay for parking!). I have work to "core hours" (9 to 3) not "flex time." T-shirts and jeans aren't acceptable attire. I don't sit in a space age super cubicle with 24" monitors. Judgeing from the job offers I was sent (out of the blue) I could be making a lot more elsewhere. However, there is interesting work to do, the pay is a little above average, the work is steady and stable. Most importantly I rarely work more then my 40 hours a week. (Not that I am adverse to putting in more hours when needed.)
The other 128 hours are mine. I have put over 10000 km (6200 mi) on my motorcycle this summer. I have been down most of the backroads within 2 hours ride. I have visited forgotten lakes, and explored old twisty roads. I have read several good books. I've been hiking and kayaking. I have even sat in my backyard with the BBQ and a beer. It has been a lot of fun.
My friend's motorcylce sits in his driveway. I almost went to work with him. He is well paid. His work environment is really relaxed. He gets little "fun" perks. He also works atleast 40 hrs a week. It is expected of him. Now that the bubble has burst it is worst. He is often in atleast for a little bit on the weekends. He works for a large company that will survive. He will still have a job there in a years time. But to insure that he does he has to work like crazy. He has to show that he is "commited to the company" during this "economic slowdown." (I get to read some of the foolish internal troop rallying memos sent out by the big bosses.) Not only does he have to work long hours, but he has to show he is a team player and participate in sports and other events. Although there isen't as much emphasis on those activities these days.
He may not think much of my work. His company may very well be "architechs of the future." But I like my weekends.
Interesting and marketable (Score:2)
There are fun jobs out there. But before you take one, make sure that it has a positive revenue stream. Stock prices are meaningless, so go for the wage and benefits. And get the experience, which is the most important. When you're fifty in the tech field, the only advantage you will have is experience.
p.s. It sounds like you're still young, so let me clue you in on an important universal law of reality: nothing is perfect. You can find a good job, but that job will have crap mixed in with the ice cream. My current job is interesting, challenging, and productive, but it comes with a lot of crap known as PHBs, lawyers and long distance micro-management.
sure, we are having fun at our tech jobs (Score:2)
Of course, we have fun doing technical things, not learning Perl or playing with Nerf toys.
have they all suffered from the Economic Darwinism of the early 21st century?
Suffered? I think it's good that dot-coms with almost no technology and almost no business plan have disappeared. Real technology often takes many years to develop; how are sound technology companies supposed to compete for funding with fast talking CEOs for startups?
It's a JOB (Score:2)
It is good to have a job you enjoy. That means you enjoy doing the work that the employer is paying you to do. It is good when you have bright and interesting coworkers to work with and learn from. You're lucky if that happens.
Enjoy your job, but remember it is a business. The company is paying you to do work that they sell to pay your salary and make a profit. They are not paying for you to play. If you're not working a full day; you're not doing your job. It isn't your employers job to entertain you.
Also keep in mind that there are many many people who aren't as fortunate as those of us in the technology industry. They go to their job for 8 hours and do work they don't like, because they have to make a living.
Enjoy what you do. If you want to have fun, have a life outside of work.
... not my life. (Score:2)
I work in the new media dept. of a daily newspaper. My job still has its fun moments and perks. Typically, once a month or so, my boss joins me and another coworker at our adopted bar, "the new media lounge," to throw darts and share a pitcher. That's cool for two aspects. One, we can release stress outside the office w/ the boss buying. Two, it shows the boss has an interest in us as people, not merely as peons.
Quite often, I find the best work environment isn't always fun and games. It's the one that leaves you alone to focus on a large project and draw on the resources you need to make things happen. To a fair degree (but by no means universally) the managers know that frequent distractions keep me from getting my current work done and that ultimately delays the work *they* are asking me to do.
Ultimately, I find a great deal of satisfaction in my job, not because it's "fun". Quite often it isn't. But, at the end of the day, the work has kept me challenged, the boss wants me to be challenged and keep bringing new ideas to the table. The other benefit I've made for myself is not living and dying by my work. I give it due care and consideration. It is important. But it's not all I do and I won't spend more than 45 hours a week in the office unless there is a damn good reason for me to do so.
I also make a habit of not living for work out of the office. If something important happens that needs my attention, I can be contacted, but I don't go out of my way to seek contact after hours and over the weekend with work. By and large, unless I see it by 4 p.m. Friday, I'm not going to deal with it until 9 or 10 a.m. Monday.
I find all of the above are critical for contining to enjoy my work. I get close to burnout only infrequently. I tend to stay optimistic about longterm prospects. Being given an effective work environment, the flexibility to come early, leave early (or vice-versa) and not be tied down to a leash is far more powerful than being given PlayStations or having scooter races through the halls.
Yup -- I've got one. (Score:2)
I work for MontaVista as a Geek Of All Trades (yup, the documentation for the last product I worked on lists that as my title) and love it. Nowhere else have I had as much flexability to see a problem that needs to be addressed or something that could be automated or a new feature that would be helpful to the customer and go out, design it and write it. There are lots of one-man projects up for the taking, I'm allowed to use whatever scripting language I want except where it matters (kernel code, customer requirements, teammates who need to maintain it, whatever), and yes, we have some fun (a company band, free sodas, and pretty damn clued management).
Even better, I have the most brilliant coworkers I've ever worked with. Anywhere. Ever. Talking with these folks is enlightening, and there's always new stuff to learn. I've gone from porting and packaging to kernel debugging and writing internal testing software. If I get bored of one job, as soon as I finish the project I'm on I can always get assigned to something else.
We don't spend unnecessary money on toys (no company-issued PDAs, except of course for those working on a PDA-related project) but nonetheless, working there kicks ass.
Plus they let me telecommute while I'm attending school. WooHOO!
Thus, let me assure you -- Nerf guns aren't necessary to having a cool job. I'd take the brilliant coworkers, clued management, interesting projects and job flexability that MontaVista offers me any day.
Ignore the stuffy 'told you so' losers (Score:2)
To sum up, don't live in the past: just look back in wonder at the amazing time you had, it'll be something to tell your kids as they struggle to find work in a world recession. It'll never be as good again until the economy is.
Phillip.
Forget your little dot-bomb thinkgeek world. (Score:2)
1.) Live a simpler life; do with less. There's no happiness in posessions. You don't need to buy a shiny new house in the suburbs--find a nice plot of land in a more rural area and build your own small, efficient, eco-engineered dwelling. You don't need a brand new car. You don't need to buy every latest piece of super-fast hardware the day it comes out. You don't need to buy goofy little geek trinket items from online vendors. You don't need Cable TV or satellite. You don't need to order out--learn to cook instead.. You don't need a huge stash of caffeinated beverages--water is much more healthful. You don't need to go to Starbucks, Panera, or other trendy shop every other day. You don't need to buy your clothes at fancy shopping malls. I could go on and on but you get the picture.
2.) Now that you don't need $60k/year to support your lifestyle, do whatever the heck you please. You can easily make enough to support yourself by doing contract work, consulting, etc. and have plenty left over to put into savings. You don't have to figure out the latest and greatest radically new business idea to be self-employed. Go with something that works and have 6 months of living expenses in a seperate bank account in case of rough times. Focus on zero-debt. Get rid of any car loans or mortgages ASAP. (you didn't waste that much on a house/car did you?)
3.) Now, all of a sudden, you also have lots of free time because you're not stuck in a 9-5. What better way to use that time than to contribute to lots of Open Source projects. Work with the idea that better OSS will expand your opportunities in a consulting job.
4.) Save Save Save. Make $20k/year your goal. Invest it wisely. Retire early. Kick back and relax. Enjoy the easy life without being filthy rich.
5.) On the other hand, working for a big established company is a way to build up enough money to launch yourself into the position I've described, especially if you're just getting out of school and need to pay off your loans.
Re:Forget your little dot-bomb thinkgeek world. (Score:2)
It's basically an outline of different strategies to cut down on unnecessary expenses, and still live life to the fullest.
Some of the strategies given might seem a little extreme (at least, if you don't compare them to this guy [loompanics.com]), but most of the suggestions are simple, make life more enjoyable, and the savings add up.
I enjoy my job, but it's not really "IT"... (Score:2)
Yes, there are fun jobs (Score:2)
Building a startup company from scratch is a tremedous personal growth experience, and I've gotten a lot out of it. It's extremely hard work, but extremely rewarding too.
In contrast to the dot-coms, we have been very conservative with spending our modest venture capital investment, and have concentrated on steady success - we have put out three software releases, we have successful paying customers to whom we deliver real value, and a 99.93% (and growing) uptime.
It's the company culture which is most important to me - we value people most highly. We have an open information culture (and after all, everyone is a shareholder). Mutual respect, integrity and a work hard play hard attitude are all important to us. We have a highly capable technical team, and many of them could easily find a higher paying job with a larger company even in this market; the reason they are with us is because they believe in what they do, and they enjopy the contribution they can make and impact they can have at a small company.
A lot of people posting in this forum will spout a lot of wibble about how everything should be run by techies and how marketing and sales people aren't as important, yada yada. Get this - a company needs to be strong in all areas to be successful, and the folks who produce the glossy collateral slicks are just as important as the Java coders. We succeed because we are one team.
We also have the usual little things that help alleviate stress: the junk food stocked kitchen; ping-pong, pool and foosball tables. When people are as driven as our team are, they need to unwind too.
We're not hiring techies right now, we're in a phase of focusing on growing revenue, but there are still good startup opportunities out there, and I'd advise anyone to give it a try. Even if the company isn't successful, you'll learn a lot and have a good time doing so.
Having gone myself from a 50,000 person company to a 1,000 person to 2 person startup (myself and our other founder) I can say it's truly unique and worthwhile career move.
It 99% about attitude (Score:2)
I work at Sun. I love wokring at Sun. Right now I'm choosing between enxt assignments and any one of them looks fun, though theyta re very different.
Having fun at work isn't about Nerf guns and free Jolt, its about loving what it is you do.
Any fun tech jobs left? (Score:2)
Hate to say it, but Microsoft is your answer! (Score:2)
Personally, when I am grinding over some piece of code, I NEED to have a ping-pong or CS break every once in a while. I think it improves my productivity, and my moral. I figure that as a developer I'm responsible enough to get the job done, and since I spend most of my life at work, I should be allowed to have a life at work.
I have just such a job (Score:2)
Nerf jobs (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Take a job in IT Security with Ernst & Young (Score:2)
Enjoy becoming good at your job - enjoy being good at your job - andjoy getting better at your job>
Don't get too sucked into all work and no play - get your balance right. Remember the most important thing is your family, work is a way to support them so just find one which challenges you enough but isn't crappy and make it all fun.
I don't sound like I'm on Prozac do I?
Re:Fun? Job? (Score:2)
I hear these whiners all the time. I wish they'd shut up and stop whining or get a job the do like. This is America. People are free to find a job that they're happy in (assuming it's legal). If they can't find one, maybe it's not the job that's that problem.
Re:fun? (Score:2, Insightful)
warning: asshole alert
enjoying your job has nothing to do with hippy-dom, new flavors or old flavors alike.
it's about mindfulness, and life positivity.
Re:No, they're all gone (Score:2)
An IT union... absolutely not. Are you mistreated in some way? Is the company screwing you over? why do you need a union?
Insane hours? Who is setting your hours? You know, most state laws have rules regarding working hours....
Re:It's still possible, kinda (Score:2)
After nearly 6 months without a paycheque things are looking up again
Buddy you need to quit that job NOW. You are working for free, McDonalds pays better than that. If you believe you are ever going to be compensated, you are wrong. If you ever recieve another paycheck it will be for muchless than what you are suppose to be making and your chances of getting backpay are nearly zero. Don't listen to your manager when he tells you, new funding is just right around the corner, because it isn't.
Re:Dumbass new techies... (Score:2)
At the same time there are lots of people who do know the stuff who are out of work. The problem is hooking truly good people up with truly good jobs ... while keeping a high signal to noise ratio. Big job boards really only have a fraction of the jobs available (and stuffy boring jobs no one wants so the employers have to hire expensive recruiters to find some shmuck to take it). Looking on the "careers" section of all the companies isn't really practical, either, given so many of them around (and most with nothing listed right now). Lots of advice given to job seekers doesn't take into consideration that it isn't practical given then scarcity of jobs today.
The question is thus, how to connect up the good people to the good jobs. If someone creates a new job board, will they come (even if it's free to post jobs)?
Re:Small, private companies vs. mega web shops (Score:2)
You mean you didn't try to corner 30% of the national web development market, get hundreds of millions of dollars of venture capital and IPO funding, and overexpand yourself aiming for 30% when only 0.5% was the practical limit in a market with thousands of developer companies? You mean you didn't end up being a dot-com-bomb like the others who wanted to become billionaires and ended up being thousandaires?