How Feasible is a Cash-Less Society? 617
"Think about this: if the cumulative value of everything in the world were expressed in measures of gold, which theoretically backs the majority of world currencies, does enough gold physically exist to back the paper money value, or has the paper money itself become valuable?
And what about this: how is it that the people who depend upon cash are usually in the middle of the financial spectrum, neither the poorest nor the richest? In most extreme poverty situations, transactions are based on barter. For most middle class people and above, transactions involve checks, credit, and electronic fund transfers. For the working poor, most transactions are done in cash. How does all of this add up to the trend toward a cash-less society, where money is nothing more than numbers in a computer transferred from one account to another, to another? How far off is that future?"
This will mean the end of Steak-n-Shake (Score:4, Funny)
It's all about the "funy money". AKA:counterfeit (Score:2, Informative)
The whole point of cash is that anyone can take a bill and know it's worth X amount. If high quality counterfeits become so prevalent that every other bill taken to the bank is a fake then it will mean a near collapse of the economy.
I.e. Rumors are still going around that using the government mint in one country to produce counterfeits that could then be dumped on an opposing state was considered as a possible military strategy in WW2. Too bad they all preferred TNT, C4 and Hydrogen bombs.
So as the cost and logistics of producing those counterfeits which fool the naked eye goes down the prevalence of cash alternatives will grow. Eventually businesses will start refusing to accept cash. I.e. In Jamaica most shops accept US, UK and Canadian money. However many will not take a US $500 bill because they don't know what a good one looks like.
Re:It's all about the "funy money". AKA:counterfei (Score:2, Interesting)
I wish I could remember the name of the lake that they submerged all the funny money in. It was pretty neat how the researchers went down with manned subs and retrieved the papers.
Re:It's all about the "funy money". AKA:counterfei (Score:2, Informative)
There have been several attempts to destabilize the economy of a country by flooding it with counterfeit notes - Laos in the 1960s comes to mind. Germany was planning to ruin the U.K. pound the same way in WW2 but never got around to it.
I live in a mainly cashless society now. In Canada we have a nationwide debit card system that all the banks and 99% of businesses participate in. We still have the option to pay cash for things, but with fewer businesses taking anything larger than a $20 bill (counterfeiting problems), this is an increasingly awkward option.
Yes, the banks take a cut. They always do. They view it as charging for a service, and, for now, I accept that. If I didn't have the option of using cash I'd have to reconsider.
...laura
..right with a paper-less office (Score:3, Insightful)
When it comes right down to it - there are a lot of intangibles that using cash provides - plus, is it really faster to swipe, enter a PIN and wait for authorization, than it is to get $2.15 change from a 5?
Me thinks not.
Re:..right with a paper-less office (Score:3, Interesting)
Nope. Lots of people love to feel their money in their hands, love to count it, love to smell it, etc. A buddy of mine keeps all his money he intends on spending in a month in cash form on him at all times.
I think it's a matter of preference though. Personally, I use my Visa CheckCard or my PayPal account for just about everything. Paychecks go in the bank, and anything that comes out can come out electronically.
99% of what I buy can be paid for by visa, and I like leaving myself a clear record of what I spend money on. Sure, I have to hit the atm from time to time (the anonyminity of cash is nice for certain purchases)... but I've probably made it through a month before without spending more than $40 of actual green cash (drug expenses aside).
So, I think it's a matter of preference. Some people like the modern cashlessness. But I think the feel of money in a person's hand is powerfull enough that we won't be entirely cashless for a long time.
Living in a cash economy (Score:4, Interesting)
We're at about the midpoint of the transition, I'd say. There are about as many places that won't take your Visa card as won't take the $20 in your wallet (or at least will give you grief over it, like a friend got the other day at Best Buy). But there's still the impetus of "legal tender" to keep cash around.
I lived in a pure-cash economy for about 3 years. I was moving and changing jobs, and closed my bank account. Then as I was about to open a new one, the bank I was moving to got swallowed up by Wachovia, so I held off. By the time I got around to it again, I didn't feel like going through the bother. (I finally had to when the company I was working for got bought by EA and my paychecks started being drawn on Wells Fargo.)
My co-workers who have always had credit cards, checks and ATMs don't understand how one can live in the "cash economy" without sacrificing quality of life, but it can (mostly) be done.
The biggest hurdle is things that require a reservation. If you travel you're going to have to resign yourself to paying up-front for your airline ticket and playing Hotel-Motel Lotto when you arrive (unless you're staying with friends or family). Renting a car will also be off-limits to you unless you have a couple of thousand dollars to spare for the duration as a deposit.
Apart from that, you really don't notice much. Sending money through the mail (to pay bills, for example) will involve getting a money order from the post office, which is in the neighborhood of a dollar per MO -- and USPS money orders have the advantage that a receipt is presentable in court as prima facie proof of payment. Getting a loan can be a little trickier if you have no previous loan history, but you can use landlords as references. Also, your utility history will most likely show up on your credit history, especially if you have a cell phone. And speaking of utilities, you may have to give them deposits before they will start service, but these are usually payable in installments.
You won't be able to buy things instantly online, but most places will be happy to bill you or ship after receiving payment.
If you can forego instant gratification and avoid things like needing to rent a car, there's nothing preventing most Americans from living a pure cash lifestyle.
Not Sure How This Applies (Score:2)
> Nothing execept the promis to tax you in the future for any debt created
> by it's printing.
Okay, I'll bite on this one. What's backing U.S. dollar is the U.S. economy. It's nominally the government, but when a government tries to buttress the value of its currency when the local economy doesn't support it, you end up with the situation they had in Russia near the end of the Soviet Union, where people don't want the local currency because it's not "hard".
> Its the largest conterfiet operation in existance.
This makes a nice sound bite, but since the amount of real cash in a society represents only a miniscule fraction of the value of M1 (the money supply), I think this may be a bit of an exaggeration.
Virg
Re:Cashless not stupidless society (Score:2)
Probably because the banknotes of every other country in the world are different colours. Most are also different sizes - this helps the blind and partial sighted distinguish notes. And probably because of lack of familiarity.
Different systems of bank note counting can also be confusing: when I was in Uzbekistan they had currency steps of 1 and 3 (so you get 1 cym notes, 3 cym notes, 10 cym notes, 30 cym notes and so on). This seems easy, but once I paid for a one cym beer (my first!) with a 10 cym note, and got three 3cym notes as change; I was just completely flummoxed - that part of my brain that did money just could not grasp the existance of a "three unit" note.
but stupity
That's "stupidity" - but I wonder if you get irony either.
(this isn't really the word to discribe people who aren't used to another currency or aren't used to ATMs
Uninformed is the word.
The informed.
I am living in a cash-less society! (Score:5, Funny)
Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember, just becuase you live online and buy porn online doesn't mean Joe Sixpack does.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:2)
Hey, us 'higher' class folks need to unwind every now and then too.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:3, Insightful)
First off all, your cash purchases *can* be tracked, reglardless of the existence of a mechanism for tracking them. For instance, if prior to committing a crime, you purchased a knife, which was used as the murder weapon, from a local store. Suppose the knife you bought from that store was only sold in your area at the store you bought it from. It is a simple matter for the police to track you down. They simply ask the store personnel to describe the person or persons who bought a similar knife in the last few days... it helps if they already have a picture of you, of course.
Now, secondly, it could be possible to use your credit or debit card to purchase a "smart card" that just contains a certain dollar amount and no identifying characteristics...such cards in widespread use in Europe.
Cash-less = lack of privacy (Score:3)
tracking your purchases has elements of big brother...
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marketing folks will love the idea of knowing every little thing you purchase, and when
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phone records are sometimes used as evidence in court, your purchases may follow
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abuse will come, spouses tracking each other, watching those purchases of suspicious items, like perfume, fine dining on work nights etc
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lies, damn lies and statistics. could your unusual purchases get you listed as a suspect criminal?
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could insurance companies raise your life insurance premiums due to your recorded high caffiene intake?
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could your employer look up your history and decide you take more holidays than your co-workers?
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if it's all electronic, where's the security? if I could fake you being at the scene of a crime, or having purchased something illegal or dangerous
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blackmail... with any type of tracking, blackmail is always a danger, especially when things may be implied and not actually be true, but the implication is enough to ruin another's life...
Maybe none of this could or would happen, but when humans are involved, it's a risk.Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:3, Interesting)
Not that I know about this first hand or anything, but they ussually come in denominations equivelent to the cost of a lap dance at that particular establishment.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:2)
Or might we come to the point where we assume that people carrying any cash are no good criminal types?
I doubt that bars and games will always only take cash. How much nicer might it be to scan a card once and then keep adding charges while the customer keeps drinking or playing? Maybe strip bars could use some form of internal paper "coupons" that they sell you to use on the girls. Of course the idea of a stripper "wearing" only a card reader is somewhat amusing to me.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:5, Interesting)
This is faulty (and plain dumb) reasoning.
1. You can't stick a debit card in a strippers thong, but you can stick something like a Disney Dollar... strip bars can sell "Stripper Dollars" - good only at their establishment - for money.
2. You can't buy Marijuana with a credit card? Why not? Maybe it'll be sold as "spicy oregano". Maybe it'll be sold as a "relaxation service" to hide the trail. Cash-less society does not mean one person can't pay another person. People will just learn to hide what was really bought/sold.
3. Pool games taking quarters and bars taking cash is just silly - I've seen pool tables and vending machines that take credit cards, and bars that take cash only are a relic of days gone by - it's easy (albeit sometimes expensive) for a legitimate business to accept credit cards.
And of course, the "lower class" abstraction is just silly. I'm not lowerclass, and I go to strip clubs!!!
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:4, Informative)
That's just the problem. It's not hiding the trail. It's not hiding who you bought it from, just what you bought. When the DEA or local law enforcement finally busts the "Relaxation Service" all they need to do is subpoena their Visa records and you can be identified.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:2)
Yes, this is correct - it will certainly be easier to bust the chain of drug buyers when a supplier is busted. Of course, inventive people will find ways around this.
Perhaps people will set up "proxy banks" - where I go in with my cash card and buy $500 in "matchbox cars", then give those "matchbox cars" to my dealer, he gives me drugs, and then goes back to the "proxy bank" and sells the "matchbox cars" (for maybe $450 or something).
Difficult to prove in this case that anyone was guilty - it was a free market transaction. I bought something, gave (or "traded") it to my friend (or "dealer"), and he promply sold (or "redeemed") it.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:2)
When the DEA or local law enforcement finally busts the "Relaxation Service" all they need to do is subpoena their Visa records and you can be identified.
So? There is no federal law against purchasing drugs (since such a law would be unconstitutional). I don't know of any state or local law against purchasing drugs, although such a law would be constitutional. In any case, as long as the company ran a real business in addition to the drug business, there would be no way to separate the drug purchases from the legitimate purchases. Prostitution companies run as exotic dancing companies all the time, they're in the yellow pages, and they take credit cards. I've never heard of someone getting busted for using them.
Re:Not possible, lower class vices need cash (Score:3, Interesting)
$300 for a massage?!? I don't remember a massage...
I only handle cash (Score:2)
Privacy is the issue... (Score:5, Insightful)
For all other purposes I withdraw cash - from as many random ATM's as I can manage.
I'll continue to do so until I receive an absolute guarantee from my bank that my purchasing habits are completly private.
And, of course, there are some things that plastic just can't buy...
Re:Privacy is the issue... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Privacy is the issue... (Score:2, Insightful)
Does cash from an ATM (or bank) really guarantee that your purchasing remains private?
Consider this: The ATM knows which bank account to debit (obviously). The $20 bills you get our of the ATM have serial numbers. The stores you go to will at some point return those $20 bills to a bank. From there it's just a matter of scanning the serial numbers and putting the information into a database.
It's still _possible_ to track your purchases via cash. There's not a lot of detail: timestamp information smaller than a day may be lost, and the bank may not even know which cash register was used. But where you make purchases isn't private.
The data might not necessarily be accurate -- money can be lent, given, or stolen. But how often do you give people (outside your household) $20 bills, and how often do you get a $20 in change when you're shopping??
(Am I paranoid? Nope... I keep on using my debit card and ATMs. Just food for thought.)
Re:Privacy is the issue... (Score:2)
One is that I don't draw $20 bills, I draw £10 notes.
Second is that this process depends on retailers never giving out as change money they accept for purchases, and to segregate the currency I spend in a transaction with that from the prior and next customers - not a chance.
Finally, I often change 10's for 20's and back in banks and post offices.
I work in IT for a bank, and so I am completely aware of exactly how much information is captured, and the uses to which it's put. I care about my privacy - I don't want someone like me able to count how many bottles of wine I buy a month...
Promisory Notes and Bank Scrip (Score:3, Insightful)
no less theft proof? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's like saying steel is no less melt-proof than butter; it just takes a different temperature to pull it off.
Well, if you enjoy being tracked... (Score:3, Insightful)
I like cash because I don't care to receive any more spam in my snail-mail inbox than I already do. I particularly like cash for black market purchases...kinda difficult with credit cards. Also, if you like avoiding all the troubling paperwork of paying income taxes on that $20 that you got for mowing the neigbor's lawn, cash is good.
Can any of you imagine having to set up a paypal account when you are 13 years old just so you can get paid by the guy down the street for mowing his lawn?
Cash ain't goin nowhere...
"Money will always be paper...but gold will always be gold..." -- Hudson Hawk...Mayflower...
Re:Well, if you enjoy being tracked... (Score:3, Interesting)
Jeremy Simmons
24647 Lincolnway St.
Plainfield, IL 60544
US
Phone: 815-263-3649
Email: jeremys@piocon.com
Postmodernism (Score:5, Informative)
"Reality" in financial terms is a 1:1 trade of value. X number of pigs for Y pounds of grain, for example. Barter.
Barter became unwieldy, so there came to be used "valuable" pieces of metal that represented the value of physical objects.
Then valuable metal became scarce, so we came to use pieces of paper that represented metal stored in a fort somewhere.
After a while, the paper was valuable just for the idea, and there was no longer a need to back it with gold.
Then, because the pieces of paper were unwieldy, we came to create bank accounts where we could write one piece of paper (a check) to represent several of the formerly gold-backed pieces of paper.
Then people got tired of carrying around pieces of paper, so they replaced it with single pieces of plastic that could be used multiple times.
But pieces of plastic had to be used in person, so when people wanted to buy something from Amazon.com, all they needed to use was the number.
Our entire financial lives can be reduced to a meaningless string of numbers. That's a far cry from bringing your pigs or cheese or grains or whatever to the market.
Re:Postmodernism (Score:2)
Besides that, this whole time we are still dependant on some form of commerce to get goods and services. Where is Star Trek when you need them? I want my unlimited supply of energy, replicators for goods and machines/holograms to take care of all the things no one wants to do.
Cashless society? How about a moneyless society? Of course if any one did manage to invent a way to eliminate money, you'd have to imagine they wouldn't get paid for doing so.
Re:Postmodernism (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure that this was the case. It wasn't that the valued goods became scarce, so much as it was impossible to wield $100,000 around in your pocket. Within a given country, the government provided security as for the value of coin, and in the worst case, that coin had some value if melted down. Later as coutries trusted this sort of exchange fiat money (or completely worthless) was used.
This required the trust that you could get something valuable back if you wanted (say to trade internationally).
In the US at least, it was eventually determined that the economy need to grow and shring, and that fixing equity on stocked goods was innefficient. If we had inflation, for example, we would have liked to have introduced new cash into society to compensate since the price of gold (the US's former standard) didn't directly vary with the rate of inflation.
Things were still safe because you could regulate the printing/coining of fiat monies. But then checking became very popular. Now you had the concept of float. One bank would honor a check (and allow accumulation of credit/cash) before the debited bank could deduct.
Later we have the concept of equity-based loans. I percieve that your good is valued such that I'll lend you most of the money for it. You take that money and spend it (via checks), but more goods and take loans out on them..
All in all, checkable money develops a velocity (the rate at which the same virtual or physical dollar is spent per year) such that our net assets are multiple times the physical printed fiat dollars total value.
In a booming economy, that multiplier increases. The problem is that that rate of boom has to be maintained or there will be a dramatic credit crunch. A recession after a boom is devistating because trillions of dollars can up and dissapear (after all checks are registered).
This would have happened even with a gold standard due to virtual assets and value.
The issue has always been one of efficiency. Yes we're more at risk now that a single number can render our bank-account empty. But we have a much greater ability to refill that bank-account than we did when someone with TNT could "blow the safe" and bring you back to square one. You can be insured, bring out new mortages so you don't starve, and most importantly be paid a heck of a lot more than days of old due to incredible industry efficiencies.
-Michael
big brother =:-( (Score:5, Insightful)
Also that means that if they _suspect_ you of selling/using drugs, they can freeze your finances completely. It gives _way_ too much control to somebody else, based on politics, purchasing habits, etc... It makes my skin crawl.
P.S.
I don't think many (any?) major economic powers even _pretend_ to back their currency with anything real anymore, let alone gold.
Re:big brother =:-( (Score:3, Informative)
I believe that is incorrect; the United States issues Federal Reserve Notes (bills, and I believe coins also) which are backed mostly by gold or gold certificates. The US government Treasury holds quite a bit of gold [treas.gov].
The US Treasury Dept [ustreas.gov] has a FAQ [ustreas.gov] that explains this. See "What are Federal Reserve notes and how are they different from United States notes?", which specifically states:
Re:big brother =:-( (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, but it later states that
AFAIK, the gold backing thing was mandated by the gold exchange standard of 1920's, which has been replaced in 1971 by the Smithsonian Agreement which established fixed exchange currencies and was itself replaced in 1973 with the so-called "fluctuating fiat currencies", i.e. exchange rates are set by the market according to supply/demand laws. So now currencies, including the US dollar, aren't really backed by anything except the strength of the economy of the country where they are issued. See this link [mises.org] for a documented study of the whole thing.
Re:big brother =:-( (Score:2)
In fact, the Treasury Dept. FAQ you quote states,
Not Necessarily (Score:4, Interesting)
This has been tested in Swansea, UK, and I believe it proved reasonably successful, at least with the vendors that used it.
As I see it, credit/debit cards will die off, over time. You can't keep spending ahead of yourself, and expect to make ends meet. The recession of the Thatcher/Reagan era was largely a product of free-spending on credit. The amount spent vastly exceeded the amount available, and the economic system was not able to cope.
Further, credit/debit cards DO need a third-party, which is inherently more expensive than having the electronics do all the transacting on-site. It's therefore much cheaper for banks to churn out a bunch of "smart cards", with suffcient processing power to handle decent public-key encryption, than to maintain a clearing-house for credit cards.
Since cheaper usually wins, in the end, a system involving distributed handling of transactions will always be preferable to a centralized one.
Re:Not Necessarily (Score:2, Interesting)
As for smart cards being cheaper, you have to remember that banks are going to charge you to transfer money onto the card.
Credit beats debit any day of the week precisely because you can "spend ahead of yourself". It isn't about going into debt, but making someone else pay now while your money works somewhere else for a month. If accumulating too much debt is a problem, it's certainly not the fault of the credit industry.
Re:Not Necessarily (Score:2)
Re:big brother =:-( (Score:2)
Re:big brother =:-( (Score:2)
How's that different than credit / checking today? There will always be some sort of "tradeable" currency. Even if it's computers / cars, etc. They can't force you to use a certain type of transaction when you're really trying to be discrete.
What I see is the same as the gold-standard, which was "credit redeemable in cash" stamped on the cards. Coins will probably be phased out (if inflation hits again and no soda costs less than a dollar, which you already see in high profile areas with vending machines), but dollar bills should be available for more than your life-time.
In the worst case, the mafia has always been good at money laundring. I'm sure there'll be pawn-shops that act as fronts (for good ole' fashioned trade).
-Michael
Re:big brother =:-( (Score:2)
Cash is inconvienent (Score:2, Interesting)
With any luck, future vending machines will take visa...
I like having a monthly summary of how much I've spent,
where I spent it, and when I spent it. It makes planning
easier and more realistic.
McDonalds (Score:2)
Fast food and race registrations (where I didn't pre-register) are the only places I ever use cash any more. Even my small-town pizza joint accepts credit now. Personally I don't even own a credit card. Just a checking account card with a mastercard logo on it.
Car rentals require credit cards, not debit cards (Score:2)
Even more bizarrely, I was told that it doesn't matter if the debit card is backed by a $10k balance, while the credit card has a $1k limit (although I ended up getting a much higher limit). The "logic" was that debit cards usually have a daily limit, vs. credit cards to not. Again, this logic is rather odd since that debit card daily limit may still be higher than some credit card limits.
Re:Car rentals require credit cards, not debit car (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:McDonalds (Score:2, Interesting)
Some McDonald's in Illinois, at least, have started accepting the Mobil speedpass keychain thingy, so that you just swipe and it's recorded on a credit card. If the other gas stations aren't careful, speedpass is going to become the new basis for convenience store and other small purchases.
I don't have a speedpass, though, because I usually only buy gas at a gas station, and the delay is not the card authorization at the pump, but the time from the authorization until the pump actually starts dispensing. If I could get the time from swipe->gas starts flowing down to about the time to unscrew the gas cap, I'd be happy. Only then would a speedpass make sense at a gas station.
Re:McDonalds (Score:2, Interesting)
Which makes me wonder if Amex Charges McD $1.25 for a $.99 burger...
No cash, use strakh instead. (Score:2)
Good trades, that is providing excellent products to "customers" of high strakh, would increase both parties' prestige.
Naturally, to an outsider, this gift economy had rules that were nearly incomprehensible. And breaking those rules, even accidentally, could lead to grave personal danger.
Anyway, the name of the story is "Moon Moth".
Re:Not Moon Moth, but some other (Score:2)
That is correct. And their economy (as it were) was based on strakh (karma/reputation). Why do you contradict me? (Your title is "Not Moon Moth, but some other").
A cash coincidence? (Score:4, Interesting)
1) I stay in my budget. I take out cash when I get paid, and know exactly how much I have to spend until my next pay check.
2) I get less junk mail. No more grocery store fliers, no more technical junk, jut good ol' mail. Coincidence? I think not.
3) People who provide services for me (yoga, karate, acupuncture, housing, servers, etc) get instant payment, and can do what they want with it, including not reporting taxes. This makes them happy.
I only use credit cards when I absolutely need to, and am much happier for it.
Only use cash (Score:2)
When I buy something, I pay cash.
Fortunately, my bills come with a bar code. When I want to pay them, I can take them to any bank or post office or convenience store and pay them with cash. Believe me, this is even more convenient than paying online. (Since I do it as I am buying something else.)
I get no junk mail, other than fliers for pizza places or other handbills that come, not through the postal service, but by some guy stuffing them in my mailbox.
I just had a few months off, thanks to the dot-crash and guess what? I was fine because I didn't have to worry about credit card payments.
When I lived in the states, every semi-major purchase was followed by a slew of junk mail. Every move was watched.
Here in Japan, a good percentage of people buy new cars with cash. They go to the ATM, take out the money and take it to the dealership. End of story. (Here, the daily withdrawl limit at an ATM is around $25,000, as opposed to the $500 limits that are common in the states.)
The cars are cheaper because of this. If you tried that in the US, you'd have the FBI asking you questions, because only drug dealers try to buy new cars for cash.
I've never had cash stolen, have you? Are credit cards really that much safer? (egghead.com)
When I used credit cards, I had a lot more trouble. Now, I just go to a store and buy what I need. I'm not lacking in choices and you wouldn't be either. Plus, you are supporting some local person who pays taxes in your own community - In effect, an amount roughly equal to Visa's share of the purchase instead goes to your schools and roads. (And to the police who help insure that you live in a place where cash doesn't get stolen.)
So many Americans have been convinced that using a credit card is a necessity for emergencies and convenience. Forget it - the house always wins - if you are using them, you are handing a *lot* to the credit card company - your money, your demographics and your privacy. (I won't even touch upon people who just pay the minimum each month...)
Using cash is in effect an anonymous proxy on your spending habits. Are you ready to give that freedom up?
Some poster proposed that the only necessary uses for cash were to pay strippers and buy marijuana.
That's sad. Do you REALLY want visa to know your every move? For a group that actually thinks about privacy issues, I am surprised by the number of people who willingly allow themselves to be logged on every purchase, every dinner, every stay in a motel and every phone bill?
Soon, I suspect, it won't be possible to buy an international plane ticket with cash. I guess that's the time I stop going back to the US...
Jim in Tokyo
Re:A cash coincidence? (Score:2, Insightful)
Okay, lets talk about disposable income. Everytime I get paid a certain amount of that paycheck goes to the usual places, taxes, food, rent, gas, etc. Most of these are essentially fixed costs. What is left over is money that I can dispach at my choosing. It will not significantly degrade my economic situation to go out and buy several CD's. Or to go out for coffe 3-5 time a week now and again. Personally I find it much easier to budget my expenses when I can see cash in my wallet, and I can watch it disappear. This is a whole lot easier than trying to keep track of totals in my head 4.85 + 12.34 + 22.15 +
Bottom line: It is easier for some (many?) people to keep track of their money when they have actual bills in their hands. People with credit cards and poor memories (like myself) can sometimes get themselves into trouble. Cash always sets a hard limit, and your friends are much less eager to give you free credit than Visa is to give it to you at 19%
It is not feasible and not desirable (Score:2)
moreover, some people rely on cash to survive, like beggars and very poor people : these people would not be allowed to get a credit card or check books, mostly because they have no address.
Finally, there has to be a way to be able to pay for something anonymously. It is necessary in a free society.
Keep cash alive ! :-)
Speel chekker NEone? (Score:2, Funny)
n.
1.Abbr. cal.
a.The diameter of the inside of a round cylinder, such as a tube.
b.The diameter of the bore of a firearm, usually shown in hundredths or thousandths of an inch and expressed in writing or print in terms of a decimal
fraction:.45 caliber.
c.The diameter of a large projectile, such as an artillery shell, measured in millimeters or in inches.
2.Degree of worth; quality: a school of high caliber; an executive of low caliber.
Sheesh.
transaction charge (Score:4, Interesting)
Cash has costs as well. (Score:2)
1 - There is no such thing as a discount for cash. It just doesn't happen. There are a few places (like Steak N Shake, RaceTrak) that are cash only and offer prices that are 1-2% lower, but it's tough to find them.
2 - Cash costs money. It costs money to have a cash safe. It's a security risk to have a lot of cash on hand for change purposes. It costs money to have a security guard come pick up your cash and take it to a bank. There is no clear accounting trail to follow. Whether this is more or less than the 1.5-3% CC charge business, I have no idea. But don't think that cash costs less money.
Re:Cash has costs as well. (Score:2)
Really? Then why do these guys [marketpro.com] sell you discount passes for $3 less [marketpro.com] if you pay cash? Or is that a "credit surcharge", not a "cash discount"? :-P
FWIW, I went to one of their shows and I was able to get substantial discounts on computer goodies by paying cash instead of credit.
Get the government out of the printing business. (Score:3, Insightful)
While it is worthwhile for the government to regulate the amount of money available through monetary instruments and fiscal policy, it seems pointless in our day and age for the government to continue to track the quality of trillions of pieces of paper.
Note that this is not simply a domestic issue - numerous other nations use the greenback for their currency, so this creates a huge bloated government apparatus that is completely unnecessary.
Perfectly feasible (Score:2)
People here have pointed out the lack of the touted paperless office. I'd like to add this thought to that: People have been trying since the 70's (at least) to get rid the penny. Check your pockets for the success factor there.
People stop using things when they become useless. No amount of marketing by "eMoney" companies or wishful thinking by self-professed "geeks" will make it go away.
MS Money & Quicken (Score:2)
A different type of criminal... (Score:2)
A cashless society will certainly slow down the first two types; they can still steal _goods_, but they have to lug them around, find a fence to buy them, not get caught by the police with them, and in general it's more work for less money, not to mention complicated enough to challenge their mentality. However, this provides increased opportunities for the smart criminals. And mainly, I would be concerned about the opportunities this gives to both corporations and governments for dishonest dealings.
Forty years ago, in any sort of sales business the motto was "the customer is always right". Nowadays, most corporate customer service depts run on the motto "the customer is always wrong". Do you really want to let them hold your money as bits in their computers, with no hard-copy proof of your account?
And then there are all the privacy aspects -- corporations tracking everything you purchase, g-men able to track your movements every time you stick a card in a machine, etc. I'll use cash, thank you. And if I become worried about muggers, CCW permits aren't that hard to get in Michigan... (A dead mugger is a non-recidivist.)
I used to spend significantly more with cash (Score:3, Insightful)
That depends... (Score:2)
Never use an ATM debit card (Score:2)
On a similar subject, I would recommend everyone cut up those combo ATM cards that can be used as debit cards where credit cards can be used. They are bad, bad, bad. The reason? If a credit card is stolen, you can easily dispute the charges when they come in, and no cash comes out of your pocket. If a debit card is stolen, it comes directly out of your account. The banks typically promise that they'll credit back the money "really fast", but it still sucks when your checks bounce, and I wouldn't want to depend on how fast the bank acts.
Cut it up, and ask your bank for a regular ATM card that requires a PIN number.
Cashless vending machine (Score:2)
Stupid Bank service fees have to go (Score:2)
Cash still has its uses... can't be tracked, flexible uses, won't blue-screen, etc ..... BUT it can be easily stolen.
Debit/credit transactions are getting more and more widespread everyday, BUT there are service fees on everything and while the money is more secure, it can still be stolen by determined (tech-savvy) criminals.
Cash will be around for a while yet ... at least as long as it takes for the banks to wake up and discover that people would use their cards more if they weren't being charged so much in service fees.
Re:Stupid Bank service fees have to go (Score:2)
Now, a starving college student may have a hard time trying to manage the ~$1,500 minimum balance to avoid all fees, but there are other ways around the problem of service fees:
1) Only use your banks ATM's. Lets face it, if you purchase on impulse and need to use the atm that is conveniently located where you are, then you really dont manage your money that well anyway and should just count the atm fee as a stupidity tax. Plan your purchases in advance and hit your banks atm on the way and you can avoid the problem.
2) Use a credit card with no annual fee. You should be able to find one with very little hassle, just dont expect a 9.99% interest rate to go along with it.
3) pay that credit card off each month. You don't care if you have a card with a high interest rate if you pay it off in full each month.
4) get a checking account with no monthly fees (my bank will wave the fee if you manage a minimum balance or use direct deposit). There may be a few hoops, but it is usually worth your time and effort to jump through those hoops to save the fees (mine used to charge a $2 "transaction fee" for every transaction that I did at the bank that I could have done through an ATM (deposits, withdraws, etc). Solution? simple, use the atm.
In the end, I have not paid a banking fee (interest, service charges, etc, etc) in several years. It's all part of a good money management solution.
Not in my lifetime (Score:2)
How to impress women in a cashless society? (Score:2)
1)withdraw $100 for your date from an ATM.
2)go into bank and exchange $40 for forty single dollar bills
3)wrap the remaining three twenties around the wad of singles and put in pocket
4)when paying for stuff on your date, make sure to always roll the twenties off the top
5)make sure your date does not cost more that $40 so you don't have to pull that last twenty dollar bill.
6)Say, "Fohgoet a'bout it" a lot. Chicks dig this.
Re:How to impress women in a cashless society? (Score:2)
Two advantages to Cash. (Score:3, Insightful)
- Cash is really the only means that we have for anonymous/semiprivate transactions. Everything can and is tracked. Big brother is watching you.</paranoia>
- People with poor planning skills. To many many many people in this world (although perhaps the interection of slashdot readers and this particular group of people is not very large), money that you can't hold in your hand isn't really money: this means that it can and is spent on a whim with not "plan". This is why people get so down in credit card debt that they can't seem to pull themselves out of...
If people are allowed to spend "insubstantial" money that they can't feel slip through their fingers... then many people could have a problem with their personal finances...IOW, credit cards are not for everyone. :)
-Chris
Very out of date (Score:2)
Actually, most major currencies are not backed by gold and haven't been for some time. The United States, for instance, went off the gold standard during the Nixon Administration. Even before that there wasn't enough gold to come anywhere close to backing all of the currency in circulation. Instead the money could theoretically be exchanged for gold, but there were sharp limits on how much gold a person could actually posses, imports and exports were restricted, etc.
The reason that gold stopped being used as backing for currency is that the partial backing system just didn't work anymore. Real exchange rates between countries shifted because their economies grew at different rates and their central banks had different policies, but the nominal exchange rates weren't allowed to fluctuate. That meant that the real and nominal value of gold was skewed and smuggling became a serious problem- hence the restictions on gold ownership.
Today there simply isn't enough gold to come anywhere close to meeting the needs of even partially backing currencies (with all the problems that would entail) much less fully backing it. Instead money is backed by the faith and credit of the government that issues it. That's a big part of the reason that exchange rates fluctuate wildly in response to political instability. It seems less tangible that backing with gold, but in reality it's not as big a difference from the partial backing system as you might think.
Cash is such a small portion of our economy (Score:2)
Electronic wire transfers between banks, wire transfers between people, paperless checks (which are just a request to a bank to transfer money electronically), letters of credit, credit instruments--all of these things have been around well before computers. Some of these devices are by definition an invasion of privacy: an overseas letter of credit is often used by small businesses to indicate to overseas trading partners that money is available--generally, the letter of credit and representation to the overseas partner is made by the bank, and not by the person who pulled the letter.
That we have started being concerned with privacy issues and can now create paperless checks (that's what you're doing when you pay bills on-line from your checking account to a payee who can accept on-line payments) doesn't mean these things haven't been around since damned near the start of the Fed nearly a hundred years ago. The only things that are new is that it's faster and more convenient to do on your home computer, and we are now more concerned with the Internet about our personal information being sold to third parties so they can mail bomb our homes with junk mail.
Whew.... (Score:2)
say it aint so! (Score:2)
Vision of the future... (Score:2)
To make things more convenient, we can even get around the need for an electronic reader to verify the PGP signature and deduct small amounts froma card, by issuing cards in smaller denominations that can be mix and matched in a pinch, to create 'exact change.'
Even better, instead of using cryptography, we can simply assign each money card a unique, human-readable serial number, and incorporate anti-counterfeiting, authentication technologies that can be verified by a human without need for an electronic reader or landline.
In fact, we could make the entire system even more convenient by changing the format from a credit-sized card to a paper medium, allowing many 'bills' to be stored in a 'wallet' at one time. These could be distributed from 'teller machines' that can be accessed using traditional archaic money technologies such as debit and credit cards.
Woah. I can't wait. It all sounds so cool.
FWIW (Score:2)
Me too! (Score:2)
Oh wait, that's because I'm in college.
culture and money outside america? (Score:2, Interesting)
(she would deposit checks without understanding the bank could take over a week to credit the account)
so the (japanese) landlord demands cash every month. i think its common for many people to carry tens of thousands of yen (hundreds of dollars) *all the time* with *zero fear* of being robbed in japan, but here in manhattan it's a different story.
so the japanese carry more cash than typical americans, and seemingly use more automated money transactions as well... what about other cultures and money, anything to be learned?
It's not always a high-tech solution (Score:2, Insightful)
E.g., every workday I walk down to the cafe [crccafe.com] on the first floor where the staff and I greet each other by name. I order my food, they give it to me, and I walk out. Money is never mentioned. At the end of each month, they snail-mail me a bill and I pay it.
Obviously this won't work for every cafe in the world, but the point is that no PDA's, debit cards, or passwords are involved. It's an old-fashioned tab and sometimes those old-fashioned things work quite well.
Why would we? (Score:3, Insightful)
Still, even though it's plausible to go without cash, in order to eliminate it, you'd have to get the sellers to stop accepting it. How would you do that? The only way would be if the government eliminated cash completely, for example, if they offered to redeem it for credit up to a certain date, and refused to back it thereafter.
For starters, the implications for personal privacy would be substantial, and there would likely be widespread public outcry. But more to the point, cash is a simple method of anonymous exchange that allows economic activity to take place at a very low level. Eliminating it would impact many transactions, as some have observed. Some are illegal, such as drug deals, but others are benign... flea markets and garage sales, poker games, tipping, lemonade stands, and a lot of everyday economic activity among poorer people.
So I just don't see how it's possible, no matter how close we come, to being able to eliminate cash entirely, nor should we want to. We will be pretty close, in fact, we already are pretty close... if we choose to, we can live with minimal cash. But I don't want to go without it completely, and I don't think many others will either. Anonymous paper cash is a pretty profound invention, and electronic transactions will only replace it for transactions that offer substantial improvement in convenience or that require some sort of accountability.
Hmm.. (Score:2)
Cashless? Ew. (Score:2)
In short, a cashless society would be nice for following our finances, but it reduces a lot of our liberties -- mainly, the right to buy things without anybody (especially not our creditors) knowing what they are. Plus, it's so much fun to do that thing where you make Lincoln stand upside down after a couple joints and a brew-dog.
Not for me (Score:2)
"a theif" of a different "calibur". (Score:3, Funny)
- A.P.
Incredulous! (Score:2)
- Cash is mostly anonymous and private. I earnestly hope that it never goes away until some electronic form of money has similar qualities. Your credit cards, debit cards, store charge cards are all extremely un-private. Yes, this actually has significant negative consequences. It's such an obvious arguement that I'll simply say EFF. Almost all privacy policies are mis-named. Which leads to...
- Under our current system of credit/debit cards, identity theft becomes a easy and devastating attack. It's much more efficient to script an exploit to get credit card numbers than to rob a bank. Simply getting rid of cash will only exacerbate these problems. I wouldn't be surprised if a good third of the ecommerce sites on the internet got hit with one of various viruses/worms this summer alone.
I know the author was a victim of techno lust and meant well, but people should really be more informed. Civil liberties are too important to foresake for convenience or because of ignorance.
We NEED Paper Money! (Score:2)
How else are the Taliban and Osama "I need a skycraper up my wontan ass" bin Laden going to deliver their Superplague to the masses of consuming westerners, without paper bills in which to embed the Spores?[1] As of yesterday cropdusters are out, you know.
[1]c.f. The White Plague, by Frank Herbert
Splitting bills, paying people at the door (Score:2)
Charges for using Transaction based payments (Score:2)
For those of you who have ever pondered what the point of the Check Card is vs the Debit Card? The bank/Credit union make money off of you when you use your Check Card. That is why it is pushed so hard.
When I worked for the Credit Union, one of our largest sources of revenue was from people who used Check Cards. That's why, when I use it, I always choose Debit and enter the Pin number. Why should I make the store pay a fee just so I can sign instead of punching in a PIN?
Transaction Costs Make Cashless Impractical (Score:2)
There's a couple possible solutions to this. One is to change the pricing scheme of the fees charged by the banks/CC companies, but I'm not really sure what motivation they'd have to do is such a thing.
The other solution, and one that a lot of companies are trying (disclaimer: I work for one) is to offer their own cashless payment system with low/non-existant transaction fees, and gain profit through other means such as selling marketing data and/or making interest from the money stored in users' accounts.
HARD to use cash in some situations (Score:3, Insightful)
Has anyone else noticed that it's actually hard to use cash in some situations? For the most part, I'm totally cashless. I have a central checking account and a debit card w/ the Visa logo. So rather than go to the ATM, withdraw some 20s, and spend them. I just go to a place of business and they withdraw the exact amount for me.
But what about the people that prefer to exclusively use cash?
I worked in a computer retail store for a while. And when people came in and bought a high-high-end PC or laptop with just cash, you'd better believe we noticed it. When someone peels 20-30 $100 bills off a stack, everyone in the store craned in for a better look. And we checked all that money verrry carefully.
A similar story was told to me by a friend who worked at a candy factory. The janitor at the place had just bought a brand-new car, but was complaining that the dealership almost wouldn't sell it to him. Why not? Because he had paid in CASH. $26,000 in cash. He actually brought the stacks of bills to the dealership in a briefcase, all ready to go. And, of course, the dealer was a little suspicious about someone carrying that much cash.
So you see my point? How is it that we have come to trust pieces of plastic or signed pieces of paper as opposed to cold, hard, cash? Somehow America has embraced a further level of abstraction from specie to the point of almost rejecting other forms of payment. It just seems like curious situation to me. I'm not sure if I like it or not, though. Like I said, I'm almost totally cashless. But I'd like to believe that if I wanted to switch to cash-only, I'd be able to use that money for whatever I want. Now I'm not so sure I could.
The good things about a cashless soceity (Score:3, Insightful)
However, the more I think about it, I realize that with some careful consideration and common sense legislation, both could be a great boon to us.
If the government is able to receive real time, compleatly accurate consumer and business spending information (in the aggregate, of course), it suddenly has access up-to-the-second and 100% reliable data for forming economic indicators, which are at best currently formed quarterly.
At that point, the governments economists can catch onto economic trends quickly and react before any major problem begins to occur. From an economic standpoint, it would be wonderful.
The other issue surrounds marketers collecting information. I can't seem to understand the danger in this. I for one really want marketers to know what I'm interested in; We have a real chance to change the role of advertising from a broadbased attack on our senses to facilitate brand reconition for products and services we don't need or want (current) to a tool that educates us to the availibility of products and services we genuinanly would like to know about.
The only key to making this work is a continued diligance in making sure our lawmakers are very specific in the drafting of legislation so information does'nt belong in the wrong hands: For example, governments can only collect data in the aggregate and cannot submit individual information to law inforcement. Or Advertisers can only collect the most basic of demographic information (zip code, income range) about us.
Re:Pro-Cash (Score:2)
Not to mention ATM fees... (Score:2)
Even if you only get hit once in a while by fees, it's still more than the $0 transaction fee you get with a credit card you pay off.
Those little bits add up-- cash costs you more to use than a carefully managed credit card. Especially one with a monthly rebate like the previous poster mentioned.
Re:Will it ever be here fully? (Score:2)
Yeap, Income Tax based on Voluntary Compliance (Score:2)
It's great to see other people finally learning the truth !
Here's a very interesting thoroughly researched document entitled The Great IRS Hoax [tzo.com]. It has 1600+ (!!) pages documenting that the Income Tax is based on Voluntary Compliance [taxstatement.com].
~~
"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history,
whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small
elite." - Thomas Jefferson